253 réponses à ce sujet

[fallen_acolyte]

adapt firepower isn't an issue for me. Its more survival. In gold its absolutely imperative to use stronghold mod just to handle the increased pressure you see in gold or plat matches. If I don't ill just be the liability of the team.

I had no idea the human adapt was a beast. I guess ill try to see what you guys mean. Assuming its not the one with biotic slash.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

For the mods, I suppose you're talking about the consumables since there are technically no weapon mods that do what you're talking about.

The "Power Amplifier" will not do a whole lot extra damage and the same type of "damage amplifier" exist for weapons with the exact same stats so this has no effect whatsoever on the conclusion I made earlier about damage.

The "Power Efficiency" will give you a 30% extra cooldown, but with a base cooldown of 8, 200% from loadout and the best options on Warp, it will still have a cooldown of 2.05 seconds. Compared to the 2.22 seconds you can get without the consumable, it's a difference of 0.17 seconds, which is not significant enough to show in-game. Now use a base cooldown of 6.5 seconds instead of 8 and you have a cooldown of 1.66 seconds. Compared to the 2.22 seconds without the consumable, it's a difference of 0.55 seconds. So even with a base cooldown of 1.5 seconds lower than the current value of 8, you can barely manage to cut half a second from the final cooldown. Overall this will help a bit, but it's far from being overpowered and it's with the absolute best conditions possible.

It's easy to say what I explain is simply not true when you can't be bothered to support your opinions with facts. I'm not saying Adepts are useless or that they are overshadowed by other class, only that their powers lack a bit and my suggestions would give them the slight boost needed.

yes, i'm talking about consumables...they increase power recharge speed or damage

your facts are spreadsheet info, mine are from game experience...so it's a lil harder for me to type that up then just regurgating numbers from spreadsheets....from my game experience, i and others have done fine in public games, on all difficulites, with these supposedly weak biotic characters....even while playing with almighty tech/weapon characters.....that's how i know buffing them further will make them close, if not overpowered...that's how i know you cant just look at a spreadsheet and say: this number is less/greater than that number, so that means this character is worse/better than that character...and that's all you're doing...

[whateverman7]

Atheosis wrote...

I find many of the biotic classes to be immensely powerful with the right builds/loadouts (regardless of whether other biotics are around). To the people who are saying otherwise I can only say there is something wrong with how you are playing them.

that's what it boils down to....i'm not saying they're playing wrong, cause there is no wrong way....they just arent using the characters to their full potential to think the biotic characters are 'weak'/'underpowered'

[whateverman7]

fallen_acolyte wrote...

adapt firepower isn't an issue for me. Its more survival. In gold its absolutely imperative to use stronghold mod just to handle the increased pressure you see in gold or plat matches. If I don't ill just be the liability of the team.

I had no idea the human adapt was a beast. I guess ill try to see what you guys mean. Assuming its not the one with biotic slash.

nope, you dont need stronghold...you just need to be aware of your surroundings, use cover, know how to run when need be, etc...

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

yes, i'm talking about consumables...they increase power recharge speed or damage

your facts are spreadsheet info, mine are from game experience...so it's a lil harder for me to type that up then just regurgating numbers from spreadsheets....from my game experience, i and others have done fine in public games, on all difficulites, with these supposedly weak biotic characters....even while playing with almighty tech/weapon characters.....that's how i know buffing them further will make them close, if not overpowered...that's how i know you cant just look at a spreadsheet and say: this number is less/greater than that number, so that means this character is worse/better than that character...and that's all you're doing...

I put out numbers from spreadsheet and Naridia's builder, but don't think I stopped there. I play regularly Platinum, I've got over a thousand games now so I do speak from experience too. My teammates and I are playing private games and are all experienced enough to complete U/U/P games more than 95% of the times, **** happens for the remaining 5%...

When we do speed runs, we use 4 different biotics on Glacier and usually do extractions between 19m30s and 21m00s. It's "easy", we hear the biotic explosions every seconds or so, it's kinda beautifull to hear   But when we use any other combination without using a biotic, we extract in 17m20s to 19m20s. Using a combination of 2 biotics and 2 others or 3 biotics and 1 other, we extract in 18m30s to 20m00s.

Seeing these numbers, my conclusion is not that Adepts are bad, my conclusions is Adepts are slow compared to other classes. Adepts are powerfull, I never feel they won't do the job well except for Dragoons, but that's another story. My point is what can be done so Adepts can be as effective as any other classes?

And that's why I suggest a slight reduction in their cooldowns. If the numbers I suggested are overpowered to you, feel free to change them, it's the principle behind that is important, but I don't consider half a second in the best scenario is something that can push the Adepts into the overpowered territory.

I also suggested that a detonator power prioritize the same type of power so a fire detonator will prioritize a fire primer and a biotic detonator prioritize a biotic primer. That would help a lot when using a mix of biotics with other classes because you won't have to check every single time that your detonator has effectively detonated your biotic explosion instead of something else that does less damage. It's a question of "flow". Before the changes to fire/cryo explosions, you didn't have to think about what was going to happen, you knew you were gonna have a biotic explosion, you didn't have to wait and see before asking yourself if you need to cast a detonator again or simply a primer again. This bring another element where you feel "slow", it's all about the flow.

So as you can see, I'm not saying Adepts are bad, far from that, I'm saying they are slower than the other classes. Sure, it shows more on Platinum than the other difficulties, but it's still there and it's still a disadvantage compared to other classes. All I'm suggesting is to give them a boost in speed so they can feel as efficient as the other classes.

[AsheraII]

BE's simply have the best sound effects. That alone is reason enough to play a biotic.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I put out numbers from spreadsheet and Naridia's builder, but don't think I stopped there. I play regularly Platinum, I've got over a thousand games now so I do speak from experience too. My teammates and I are playing private games and are all experienced enough to complete U/U/P games more than 95% of the times, **** happens for the remaining 5%...

When we do speed runs, we use 4 different biotics on Glacier and usually do extractions between 19m30s and 21m00s. It's "easy", we hear the biotic explosions every seconds or so, it's kinda beautifull to hear   But when we use any other combination without using a biotic, we extract in 17m20s to 19m20s. Using a combination of 2 biotics and 2 others or 3 biotics and 1 other, we extract in 18m30s to 20m00s.

Seeing these numbers, my conclusion is not that Adepts are bad, my conclusions is Adepts are slow compared to other classes. Adepts are powerfull, I never feel they won't do the job well except for Dragoons, but that's another story. My point is what can be done so Adepts can be as effective as any other classes?

And that's why I suggest a slight reduction in their cooldowns. If the numbers I suggested are overpowered to you, feel free to change them, it's the principle behind that is important, but I don't consider half a second in the best scenario is something that can push the Adepts into the overpowered territory.

I also suggested that a detonator power prioritize the same type of power so a fire detonator will prioritize a fire primer and a biotic detonator prioritize a biotic primer. That would help a lot when using a mix of biotics with other classes because you won't have to check every single time that your detonator has effectively detonated your biotic explosion instead of something else that does less damage. It's a question of "flow". Before the changes to fire/cryo explosions, you didn't have to think about what was going to happen, you knew you were gonna have a biotic explosion, you didn't have to wait and see before asking yourself if you need to cast a detonator again or simply a primer again. This bring another element where you feel "slow", it's all about the flow.

So as you can see, I'm not saying Adepts are bad, far from that, I'm saying they are slower than the other classes. Sure, it shows more on Platinum than the other difficulties, but it's still there and it's still a disadvantage compared to other classes. All I'm suggesting is to give them a boost in speed so they can feel as efficient as the other classes.

you speedrun through the hardest difficulty in 20 mins or less, but since you can speedrun faster with other characters, that means biotics need a buff?...lol....and yet, giving the a buff wont make them overpowered?...lol....i'm done...

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

you speedrun through the hardest difficulty in 20 mins or less, but since you can speedrun faster with other characters, that means biotics need a buff?...lol....and yet, giving the a buff wont make them overpowered?...lol....i'm done...

The speed runs were just an example to show you a consistent test. It takes more time for other maps, but the same principle apply. The same conclusion still apply: Adepts are slower than any other characters.

Judging by your reaction, increasing Adept's "speed" (reduce cooldowns) would make them overpowered. Following that logic, any character that do faster than Adepts are defacto overpowered, aka everything else... Either you slow everything else or you speed up only Adepts. The fact you're knowingly discriminating Adepts by saying every other class are justified to dispatch enemies faster than them is a bit disturbing. You don't like them much do you?

Edit: An example of your logic at work. You have 3 children and you win the lottery. You give the first two 10 millions, but only 9.5 millions to the last one. So it's "fair" since he shouldn't complain because 9.5 millions is enough money as it is. You have a loose definition of fair it seems...

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 02 novembre 2012 - 06:17 .

[QSec]

Agree with you, TheThirdRace. Biotics just don't seem to generate the same amount of damage per second. Although, I wonder if that is intentional.
I mean, 4 biotics will do more damage, then lets say 4 Krogan Soldiers with Avenger I (ie a new player), but not as much as 4 Krogan Soldiers with Harrier X. Since strong biotics are available to players relatively quickly (adept at lvl 20), that might be the intended progression.
Maybe the next multiplayer game from BW will include power amplifier equipment in the rewards instead of just gun upgrades. Kinda seems like a design limitation that they are now having to work within.

[deathscythe257]

Big Bad wrote...

Do tech explosions scale up for higher difficulties...cuz biosplosions do!

all power combo's scale up with difficulty... Tech bursts just do the least damage of all power combos becuase they are the easiest to setup...

Biotics are strongest because they require biotics to detonate (while there are many abiltiies that can do combos, they are balanced by their own trade-offs)
Fire/Cryo are somewhere in the middle because they are limited in how they can be setup (ammo, flamethrower,incinerate...)
Tech burst can be setup and detonated by almost anything and hence are the weakest, they will fry shields and barriers, but will not do much against armor...

[Coalmine]

Biotic Explosions are still considerably stronger.  Drell Adepts and Justicars paired with Shockwave users are always welcome.

[NuclearTech76]

TheThirdRace wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

DERP!

The speed runs were just an example to show you a consistent test. It takes more time for other maps, but the same principle apply. The same conclusion still apply: Adepts are slower than any other characters.

Judging by your reaction, increasing Adept's "speed" (reduce cooldowns) would make them overpowered. Following that logic, any character that do faster than Adepts are defacto overpowered, aka everything else... Either you slow everything else or you speed up only Adepts. The fact you're knowingly discriminating Adepts by saying every other class are justified to dispatch enemies faster than them is a bit disturbing. You don't like them much do you?

Edit: An example of your logic at work. You have 3 children and you win the lottery. You give the first two 10 millions, but only 9.5 millions to the last one. So it's "fair" since he shouldn't complain because 9.5 millions is enough money as it is. You have a loose definition of fair it seems...

I've quit wasting my time with that dude a few pages back. I would do the same. It is a waste of time and intelligence to argue with him.

Modifié par NuclearTech76, 02 novembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

Agree with you, TheThirdRace. Biotics just don't seem to generate the same amount of damage per second. Although, I wonder if that is intentional.
I mean, 4 biotics will do more damage, then lets say 4 Krogan Soldiers with Avenger I (ie a new player), but not as much as 4 Krogan Soldiers with Harrier X. Since strong biotics are available to players relatively quickly (adept at lvl 20), that might be the intended progression.
Maybe the next multiplayer game from BW will include power amplifier equipment in the rewards instead of just gun upgrades. Kinda seems like a design limitation that they are now having to work within.

In fact, to rectify that slight disadvantage, I suggested 2 small things that could be done now instead of in the next game:
1) A biotic detonator should detonate first a biotic primer, no matter the other in which it stacks. That also apply to all other type of explosions, meaning fire detonator detonates fire primer first...
2) Reduce the base cooldown of some biotic powers from 8 seconds to 6.5. That would net a benefit 0.55 seconds in the best possible case (best consumables/loadout).

You can check the specifics and numbers of both suggestions on page 3 & 4 of this thread.

As for the example with the Krogans using Avengers, I understand that fully well and you're right. But will you gimp a class entirely because it might be a bit more imbalanced in the first 30 hours of play when most people will play more than 10 times that? If they wanted Adepts to do less damage in lower difficulties to balance things for the first 30 hours, they would have been much better to reduce the base damage of biotic explosions and adjust the scaling on higher difficulties accordingly.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Drell Adept or N7 Fury.

Try them. You might just find biotics to be really, really good.

[TheThirdRace]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I've quit wasting my time with that dude a few pages back. I would do the same. It is a waste of time and intelligence to argue with him.

Yeah, you're probably right

[TheThirdRace]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Drell Adept or N7 Fury.

Try them. You might just find biotics to be really, really good.

Never said they weren't really good, all my suggestion are about them being slower than the other classes. Check my last few posts...

[NuclearTech76]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Drell Adept or N7 Fury.

Try them. You might just find biotics to be really, really good.

Let me be straight I love biotics and there are some that are certainly viable in a decent platinum player's hand. However they have neither the damage output nor the survivability of most combat classes especially in the boss spam that is platinum. A team of biotics can work very well together in higher levels BUT most soldiers, infiltrators, and engineers are high DPS character independent of team constitution.

[QSec]

TheThirdRace wrote...

In fact, to rectify that slight disadvantage, I suggested 2 small things that could be done now instead of in the next game:
1) A biotic detonator should detonate first a biotic primer, no matter the other in which it stacks. That also apply to all other type of explosions, meaning fire detonator detonates fire primer first...
2) Reduce the base cooldown of some biotic powers from 8 seconds to 6.5. That would net a benefit 0.55 seconds in the best possible case (best consumables/loadout).

You can check the specifics and numbers of both suggestions on page 3 & 4 of this thread.

As for the example with the Krogans using Avengers, I understand that fully well and you're right. But will you gimp a class entirely because it might be a bit more imbalanced in the first 30 hours of play when most people will play more than 10 times that? If they wanted Adepts to do less damage in lower difficulties to balance things for the first 30 hours, they would have been much better to reduce the base damage of biotic explosions and adjust the scaling on higher difficulties accordingly.

At the risk of breaking the Interweb, I agree.  Both points.  Takes a Warp recharge with 200% weapon cooldown from 2.22s to 1.8s.  Or a 0% weapon cooldown bonus would slide from 5 secs to 4.06 (right?).   I would go back to playing my Asari Adept (am pretty sure she misses me).

[oO Stryfe Oo]

TheThirdRace wrote...

...Biotic detonators should always prioritize biotic primers over any other primers

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I detonate an enemy primed by both warp and incendiary ammo/flamer/etc. both a biotic explosion and fire explosion occur.

Modifié par oO Stryfe Oo, 02 novembre 2012 - 07:15 .

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

At the risk of breaking the Interweb, I agree.  Both points.  Takes a Warp recharge with 200% weapon cooldown from 2.22s to 1.8s.  Or a 0% weapon cooldown bonus would slide from 5 secs to 4.06 (right?).   I would go back to playing my Asari Adept (am pretty sure she misses me).

Let me see...

Warp
- Base cooldown: 8 seconds
- Loadout cooldown: 0%
- Warp skill #2 (Recharge speed): 25%
- Warp evo #6 (Recharge speed): 35%
- Power Efficiency III (Recharge speed): 30%

So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 0) = 8.00 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 0 + 0.25) = 6.40 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 0 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 5.00 seconds
With consumable you have a cooldown of 8 / (1 + 0 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.30) = 4.21 seconds

And now using a base cooldown of 6.5 seconds instead of 8
So with the base Warp (no skills) you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 0) = 6.50 seconds
With skill #2 only you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 0 + 0.25) = 5.20 seconds
With evolution #6 you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 0 + 0.25 + 0.35) = 4.06 seconds
With consumable you have a cooldown of 6.5 / (1 + 0 + 0.25 + 0.35 + 0.30) = 3.42 seconds


So the diffence between the 2 base cooldowns are
8.00 vs 6.50 = 1.50 seconds
6.40 vs 5.20 = 1.20 seconds
5.00 vs 4.06 = 0.94 seconds
4.21 vs 3.42 = 0.79 seconds

Which means that the lower your loadout cooldown bonus is, the bigger is the disadvantage on cooldowns

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 02 novembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[GordianKnot42]

'Cause that concussive BOOM of a biotic detonation is a thing of pure beauty.

[TheThirdRace]

oO Stryfe Oo wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

...Biotic detonators should always prioritize biotic primers over any other primers

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I detonate an enemy primed by both warp and incendiary ammo/flamer/etc. both a biotic explosion and fire explosion occur.

Impossible, you must have someone detonating the fire explosion just before you detonate the biotic explosion. This is because the primers stack, meaning that the detonation will always be the last primer used, then you need another detonator for the remaining primer. I'm pretty sure it cannot be done with Shockwave even if it's not limited to 1 explosion per cast, which is the case for almost any existing powers.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

The speed runs were just an example to show you a consistent test. It takes more time for other maps, but the same principle apply. The same conclusion still apply: Adepts are slower than any other characters.

Judging by your reaction, increasing Adept's "speed" (reduce cooldowns) would make them overpowered. Following that logic, any character that do faster than Adepts are defacto overpowered, aka everything else... Either you slow everything else or you speed up only Adepts. The fact you're knowingly discriminating Adepts by saying every other class are justified to dispatch enemies faster than them is a bit disturbing. You don't like them much do you?

Edit: An example of your logic at work. You have 3 children and you win the lottery. You give the first two 10 millions, but only 9.5 millions to the last one. So it's "fair" since he shouldn't complain because 9.5 millions is enough money as it is. You have a loose definition of fair it seems...

no, that's not my logic, that's yours....i say they'd be overpowered because of what they can do now in the game, which is cause a lot of damage...reducing cooldowns would increase what they can do, which makes them overpowered....

the speedrun isnt a good test either...it doesnt take into account spawn locations, people playing exactly the same, etc....anyway, that's besides the point....so what you cant speedrun just as fast through the game with biotics as another character?......like i said, that doesnt mean they are less powerful...

i do fine with adepts...i get rid of enemies pretty damn fast....

that example makes no sense, and doesnt reflect what i've been saying....just cause the cooldowns are a lil higher for biotics doesnt mean they are at a disadvantage is what i've been saying...to you, that means they are....

Modifié par whateverman7, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[whateverman7]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I've quit wasting my time with that dude a few pages back. I would do the same. It is a waste of time and intelligence to argue with him.

lol if you say so.....insults just cause i dont agree with your premise that biotics are 'weaker' than other character types?...that's the good ole bsn i know

Modifié par whateverman7, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I've quit wasting my time with that dude a few pages back. I would do the same. It is a waste of time and intelligence to argue with him.

Yeah, you're probably right

i swear, it's posts like yalls that make me wish we were on the same system sometimes