253 réponses à ce sujet

[Mash3d]

The recent tech buffs idnt make Biotics worthless. They just made Tech combos NOT worthless

[wraith27]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Yes, those that love "space magic" will still play them nonetheless. Otherwise, there is a clear trend toward weapons and tech users.

I already suggested some balance changes to even out the gap in this thread. Basically, I suggest that one or more of these changes be applied:

1) Biotic detonators should always prioritize biotic primers over any other primers
2) Reduce the base cooldown of some biotic powers
3) Seeker swarms have no effect on power's cooldown, but the shield regen cannot kick in for a longer duration
4) Gears that gives more cooldown on biotic powers

Perfect 

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

The speed runs were just an example to show you a consistent test. It takes more time for other maps, but the same principle apply. The same conclusion still apply: Adepts are slower than any other characters.

Judging by your reaction, increasing Adept's "speed" (reduce cooldowns) would make them overpowered. Following that logic, any character that do faster than Adepts are defacto overpowered, aka everything else... Either you slow everything else or you speed up only Adepts. The fact you're knowingly discriminating Adepts by saying every other class are justified to dispatch enemies faster than them is a bit disturbing. You don't like them much do you?

Edit: An example of your logic at work. You have 3 children and you win the lottery. You give the first two 10 millions, but only 9.5 millions to the last one. So it's "fair" since he shouldn't complain because 9.5 millions is enough money as it is. You have a loose definition of fair it seems...

no, that's not my logic, that's yours....i'd say they'd be overpowered because of what they can do now in the game, which is cause a lot of damage...reducing cooldowns would increase what they can do, which makes them overpowered....

the speedrun isnt a good test eitehr...it doesnt take into account spawn locations, people playing exactly the same, etc....anyway, that's besides the point....so what you cant speedrun just as fast through the game with biotics as another character?......like i said, that doesnt mean they are less powerful...

i do fine with adepts...i get rid of enemies pretty damn fast....

that example makes no sense, and doesnt reflect what i've been saying....just cause the cooldowns are a lil higher for biotics doesnt mean they are at a disadvantage is what i've been saying...to you, that means they are....

I had some problems following your argument. I don't know if it's plain lazyness on your part or if English isn't your first language... Anyway, what I understood of what you said is the fact that you can do something slower doesn't mean it's less powerfull.

To that I disagree. If 2 cars can reach 60 miles/hour but "car A" does it in 5 seconds and "car B" does it in 8, "car B" is less powerfull even though both cars reach the same speed. The speedruns example was the best example to illustrate this because it minimize all the other variables by using the same people, the same map, relatively the same spawn points, etc. Only the classes were really "different".

I won't argue with you that Adepts aren't powerfull, they are but they are slower. My suggestions were aimed at giving them a slight boost to correct the "slower" pace. As I said before, if you don't like the numbers I picked, use your own, it's the principle that matters. Although prioritizing a primer of the same nature as the detonator has nothing to do with cooldowns per se, you still rejected all my suggestions equally.

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I've quit wasting my time with that dude a few pages back. I would do the same. It is a waste of time and intelligence to argue with him.

Yeah, you're probably right

i swear, it's posts like yalls that make me wish we were on the same system sometimes

I should have said he's probably right it's a waste of time to argue over and over on this. I didn't want to imply the "intelligence" part of his post.

I really don't understand the "same system" you're talking about...

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[rmccowen]

TheThirdRace wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

no, that's not my logic, that's yours....i'd say they'd be overpowered because of what they can do now in the game, which is cause a lot of damage...reducing cooldowns would increase what they can do, which makes them overpowered....

the speedrun isnt a good test eitehr...it doesnt take into account spawn locations, people playing exactly the same, etc....anyway, that's besides the point....so what you cant speedrun just as fast through the game with biotics as another character?......like i said, that doesnt mean they are less powerful...

i do fine with adepts...i get rid of enemies pretty damn fast....

that example makes no sense, and doesnt reflect what i've been saying....just cause the cooldowns are a lil higher for biotics doesnt mean they are at a disadvantage is what i've been saying...to you, that means they are....

I had some problems following your argument. I don't know if it's plain lazyness on your part or if English isn't your first language... Anyway, what I understood of what you said is the fact that you can do something slower doesn't mean it's less powerfull.

I've found in the past that arguing with whateverman7 frustrates me and doesn't change anything for him. I don't think he's trolling, but he doesn't seem to like abandoning a position just because the logic and evidence are on someone else's side.

Oh, and you're still wrong about the power level and viability of biotics. 

Modifié par rmccowen, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[masleslie]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Biotics can now detonate even MORE explosions and that somehow makes them less useful?


Okay.

This!:happy:

[masleslie]

rmccowen wrote...

• Biotic explosions deal double damage against armor and barriers.
• Biotic explosions are forceful, and can deal physics damage to infantry targets.
• Many biotic powers boost the damage and force of explosions, but few tech powers do.
• Many of the biotic kits are among the tougher characters in the game: Biotic Charge, Tech Armor, Barrier, Biotic Sphere, and Reave (and now Blade Armor!) all provide substantial survivability.
• Biotic classes often offer superior crowd-control abilities, from the "soft" control of Lash and Throw to the excellent Stasis, Singularity, and Pull.

Take your pick.

and this!

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I had some problems following your argument. I don't know if it's plain lazyness on your part or if English isn't your first language... Anyway, what I understood of what you said is the fact that you can do something slower doesn't mean it's less powerfull.

To that I disagree. If 2 cars can reach 60 miles/hour but "car A" does it in 5 seconds and "car B" does it in 8, "car B" is less powerfull even though both cars reach the same speed. The speedruns example was the best example to illustrate this because it minimize all the other variables by using the same people, the same map, relatively the same spawn points, etc. Only the classes were really "different".

I won't argue with you that Adepts aren't powerfull, they are but they are slower. My suggestions were aimed at giving them a slight boost to correct the "slower" pace. As I said before, if you don't like the numbers I picked, use your own, it's the principle that matters. Although prioritizing a primer of the same nature as the detonator has nothing to do with cooldowns per se, you still rejected all my suggestions equally.

the answer is neither to your questions....i wasnt being lazy and english is my first language.....i actually speak it very well...but i've learned, the bsn is the only place on the internet when it comes to posting that how you post is more important than what you post...

as for what i said: i disagree biotics are less powerful just because their cooldown is a lil higher...they do just as much, if not more damage than other character types....if you lower the cooldowns, they'd become overpowered....that's my premise...understand that?

another example that doesnt make sense, meaning doesnt illustrate anything to do with what we're talking about....cause just like speedrunning, there are other factors that need to be considered....for your speedruns, you just said relatively the same spawns, that right there negates your premise...when comparing, everything must be exactly the same except what you're comparing...

you're saying since they're slower at putting out damage, even if that damage is equal to or greater than other character types, they are at a disadvantage...i disagree....and i do think all the things are equal for the most part in the game, reason being they all have pros/cons...you're looking at how fast something can put damage out, and use that as the determining factor if they are equal...i disagree...

[rmccowen]

Never mind; off-topic.

Modifié par rmccowen, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Felis Menari]

wraith27 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

Yes, those that love "space magic" will still play them nonetheless. Otherwise, there is a clear trend toward weapons and tech users.

I already suggested some balance changes to even out the gap in this thread. Basically, I suggest that one or more of these changes be applied:

1) Biotic detonators should always prioritize biotic primers over any other primers
2) Reduce the base cooldown of some biotic powers
3) Seeker swarms have no effect on power's cooldown, but the shield regen cannot kick in for a longer duration
4) Gears that gives more cooldown on biotic powers

Perfect 

If the scion's shield regen delay effect got shifted to the swarms, I'd be a happy man. But I don't see that happening. The Collectors wouldn't have enough cheese then. <_<

Modifié par Felis Menari, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:51 .

[Saans Shadow]

My Valkyrie and Fury respectfully disagree :-)

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I should have said he's probably right it's a waste of time to argue over and over on this. I didn't want to imply the "intelligence" part of his post.

I really don't understand the "same system" you're talking about...

same system means playing the game on the same system (ps3, xbox, pc)  so we can run games together....but i take that back, cause running games with yall wouldnt be for fun

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

another example that doesnt make sense, meaning doesnt illustrate anything to do with what we're talking about....cause just like speedrunning, there are other factors that need to be considered....for your speedruns, you just said relatively the same spawns, that right there negates your premise...when comparing, everything must be exactly the same except what you're comparing...

If you want to be picky and everything must be exactly equal to compare then you are going into this with the bad attitude. If I were as picky as you, I would argue that no apple is an appel cause when you look every single details, they're not the same, thus not equal.  You're gonna say I go extreme and I agree, but you just prove me that you use the same logic when you see fit. And when someone act like this, I don't see any reason to continue arguing because they will never understand the greater picture with their narrow view.

As for everything else, I do understand you think it would make Adepts overpowered, but then again you reject all my suggestions equally, which makes no sense whatsoever when I'm talking about prioritizing biotic primers when you use a biotic detonator. You provide your feelings, you provide no evidence or argumentation whatsoever to support your claims and somehow I'm the one that doesn't understand... So either you will blindly deny everything I say or you won't admit that I might be right on some points. Either way, that's the bad attitude.

So I'll let you have the last word, I won't argue anymore with you. I really don't need it, so whatever...

[TheThirdRace]

masleslie wrote...

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Biotics can now detonate even MORE explosions and that somehow makes them less useful?


Okay.

This!:happy:

Never forget why some people play Adepts.

I play Soldiers for weapons, I play Engineers for they tech explosions/drones/etc. and I play Adepts for biotic explosions. All the other explosions are "lesser" than biotic ones, so detonating them instead of a biotic one is less than efficient. I would have no problem with that mechanic if a biotic detonator would prioritize a biotic primer instead of going with the current stacking method.

[whateverman7]

rmccowen wrote...

I've found in the past that arguing with whateverman7 frustrates me and doesn't change anything for him. I don't think he's trolling, but he doesn't seem to like abandoning a position just because the logic and evidence are on someone else's side.
Oh, and you're still wrong about the power level and viability of biotics. 

lol naw, that's not the case...i take everything in that people say....the thing i've learned on the bsn though: people want you to say 'you're right, i'm wrong'....in regards to me, that's not gonna happen when we're stating opinions....we're not stating facts, we're stating opinions

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

If you want to be picky and everything must be exactly equal to compare then you are going into this with the bad attitude. If I were as picky as you, I would argue that no apple is an appel cause when you look every single details, they're not the same, thus not equal.  You're gonna say I go extreme and I agree, but you just prove me that you use the same logic when you see fit. And when someone act like this, I don't see any reason to continue arguing because they will never understand the greater picture with their narrow view.

As for everything else, I do understand you think it would make Adepts overpowered, but then again you reject all my suggestions equally, which makes no sense whatsoever when I'm talking about prioritizing biotic primers when you use a biotic detonator. You provide your feelings, you provide no evidence or argumentation whatsoever to support your claims and somehow I'm the one that doesn't understand... So either you will blindly deny everything I say or you won't admit that I might be right on some points. Either way, that's the bad attitude.

So I'll let you have the last word, I won't argue anymore with you. I really don't need it, so whatever...

i'm not nitpicking...when doing tests/experiments trying to prove 1 thing vs another, everything must be exactly the same except what you're comparing...in this case, you're trying to prove (as a fact) that biotics are weaker than other charater types....if you were just stating an opinion, that would be one thing, but you're trying to pass it off as fact

also, i'm not arguing with you, i'm having a discussion...we're stating our opinions, they differ, but for some reason you dont see it like that

i've rejected your suggestions after i've taken them into consideration....it's not like i'm ignoring them....i think your suggestions would make them overpowered...are the cooldowns a lil slower? yes...but that doesnt make them weaker....do primers get overriden? yes...but that doesnt make them weaker, cause all you have to do is use the detonator twice...and most detonators have fast cool downs...what evidence do you want? my opinions come from what i've seen/done in the game...

i dont disagree just to disagree...i state what i think..if people agree, cool..if they dont, that's cool too....

[Kalas Magnus]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

Biotics can now detonate even MORE explosions and that somehow makes them less useful?


Okay.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Biotics are played less often than the shooty classes, which indicates a consensus that they are underpowered compared to the shooty classes. The shooty classes do more DPS, have more hit points, and have crowd control via ammo powers. And of course their grenades/mines do more damage than BEs, have a larger radius of effect than BEs, are virtually instant, can't be blocked by other players and often other neat effects like debuffs to massive areas and scan.

Shooty classes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biotics.

[joker_jack]

You put a wraith on a Valkyrie and she becomes a biotic death machine. Meanwhile, we see the AA with a sad face.

[Rebel_Raven]

Wait, what? You're putting engineers and soldiers in the same boat? o.O What madness is this?

[Chi_Mangetsu]

Five words:

N7 Fury rave from Hell.

[rmccowen]

whateverman7 wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

I've found in the past that arguing with whateverman7 frustrates me and doesn't change anything for him. I don't think he's trolling, but he doesn't seem to like abandoning a position just because the logic and evidence are on someone else's side.
Oh, and you're still wrong about the power level and viability of biotics. 

lol naw, that's not the case...i take everything in that people say....the thing i've learned on the bsn though: people want you to say 'you're right, i'm wrong'....in regards to me, that's not gonna happen when we're stating opinions....we're not stating facts, we're stating opinions

Right. You're not going to change your mind just because someone has a better argument and a basket full of evidence.

TheThirdRace is making a strange set of assertions based in the idea that a "pure" biotic match is better than one where you can cause a fire explosion with Throw, and therefore biotic classes are handicapped by the change to tech combos. That's odd, to me, but at least he's making the foundation of his argument clear.

[TheThirdRace]

rmccowen wrote...
TheThirdRace is making a strange set of assertions based in the idea that a "pure" biotic match is better than one where you can cause a fire explosion with Throw, and therefore biotic classes are handicapped by the change to tech combos. That's odd, to me, but at least he's making the foundation of his argument clear.

I'll try to be more clear about this...

Before the changes to fire/cryo explosions, since it was harder to set them up, people weren't using them as often. That means that you didn't have many primer stacking on the same target. Thus, it was easier to detonate a biotic explosion because you had a good chance that it would be the only primer in effect. Since biotic explosions are the best explosion of them all with the stagger and the damage, you had a better bang for your buck with your detonator. At worst, you had 1 other primer stacking, so using Warp twice in a row would at least give you the explosion at the cost of suffering a cooldown of 2.22 seconds between each cast.

After the changes to fire/cryo explosions, everybody's using them since they are easy to set up with the abundance of ammo consumable. Because now you have almost always more than 1 primer, you need more often than not 2, if not 3, detonators to finally get to your biotic explosion. Having to cast Warp 2, 3 even 4 times in a row adds a lot of 2.22 seconds cooldowns for less damage than you would get with the biotic explosion. Thus, since the change and because of the stacking method for primers, the biotics are "lessen" because their damage output is diluted among less damaging explosions.

There is also the fact that people attracted to "space magic" aren't necessarily attracted to fire/cryo/tech explosions. I mean it's cool and all, but if I play an Adept, it's for their biotic explosions, if I wanted to see tech burst everywhere, I wouldn't play an Adept if you know what I mean...
 
Which leads to my suggestion: A detonator should prioritize the type of primer it is made for first, then the usual stacking method would apply. That means that if I use a biotic detonator, it will check first if there is a biotic primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any biotic primer, then apply the current stacking method and detonate the last primer stacked. That also means that if I use a fire detonator, it will check first if there is a fire primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any fire primer, then apply the current stacking methode and detonate the last primer stacked. Apply the same for cryo and tech detonators and you're set. That solution would give the priority to your own character affinities instead of having the most chaotic melting pot you can have... That would also restore some effectiveness to how you use ammo consumables and certain powers.

I hope my position has been clarified. If you see something that really doesn't make sense, feel free to give me a good counter point and we'll see if we can reach a better solution.

[whateverman7]

rmccowen wrote...

Right. You're not going to change your mind just because someone has a better argument and a basket full of evidence.

TheThirdRace is making a strange set of assertions based in the idea that a "pure" biotic match is better than one where you can cause a fire explosion with Throw, and therefore biotic classes are handicapped by the change to tech combos. That's odd, to me, but at least he's making the foundation of his argument clear.

lol i'm a grown man, if i'm incorrect, i have no problem saying it...on here, people present spreadsheet info and think that makes them correct, when that's not the case.....in this case, what evidence is proving i'm incorrect? cause he didnt do speedruns as fast with biotics?....that's his stance...i disagree with that stance...i've stated why, i just dont have spreadsheet info...is that the evidence you want?

and what's with this 'pure' biotic talk?...are you saying doing a match not using any weapons?....when i use a biotic character, i still use weapons, but the weapons are secondary....

also, if that's the case, that further points to how they would be overpowered if buffed how he and others are asking...they want them buffed enough to kill things quickly without weapons...that is a specialty kinda game, but they are treating it like it's the norm...most people use weapons (even if it's secondary)...if the characters were made that powerful that they didnt need weapons, what happens when people do use weapons? overpowered

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I'll try to be more clear about this...

Before the changes to fire/cryo explosions, since it was harder to set them up, people weren't using them as often. That means that you didn't have many primer stacking on the same target. Thus, it was easier to detonate a biotic explosion because you had a good chance that it would be the only primer in effect. Since biotic explosions are the best explosion of them all with the stagger and the damage, you had a better bang for your buck with your detonator. At worst, you had 1 other primer stacking, so using Warp twice in a row would at least give you the explosion at the cost of suffering a cooldown of 2.22 seconds between each cast.

After the changes to fire/cryo explosions, everybody's using them since they are easy to set up with the abundance of ammo consumable. Because now you have almost always more than 1 primer, you need more often than not 2, if not 3, detonators to finally get to your biotic explosion. Having to cast Warp 2, 3 even 4 times in a row adds a lot of 2.22 seconds cooldowns for less damage than you would get with the biotic explosion. Thus, since the change and because of the stacking method for primers, the biotics are "lessen" because their damage output is diluted among less damaging explosions.

There is also the fact that people attracted to "space magic" aren't necessarily attracted to fire/cryo/tech explosions. I mean it's cool and all, but if I play an Adept, it's for their biotic explosions, if I wanted to see tech burst everywhere, I wouldn't play an Adept if you know what I mean...
 
Which leads to my suggestion: A detonator should prioritize the type of primer it is made for first, then the usual stacking method would apply. That means that if I use a biotic detonator, it will check first if there is a biotic primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any biotic primer, then apply the current stacking method and detonate the last primer stacked. That also means that if I use a fire detonator, it will check first if there is a fire primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any fire primer, then apply the current stacking methode and detonate the last primer stacked. Apply the same for cryo and tech detonators and you're set. That solution would give the priority to your own character affinities instead of having the most chaotic melting pot you can have... That would also restore some effectiveness to how you use ammo consumables and certain powers.

I hope my position has been clarified. If you see something that really doesn't make sense, feel free to give me a good counter point and we'll see if we can reach a better solution.

you made your position clear the first time, i just disagree.....but i'll respond to this post only:

so you're upset tech explosions can happen faster even if an enemy has been setup for a biotic explosion? and you want it changed to where the detonator will set off whatever explosion according to what was used on the enemy?...

i was gonna type a good reason why i disagree, until i really read what you said...it seems more like you're upset someone beat you to an explosion/took a kill from you, rather then you really thinking biotics are 'weaker'....in that case, i'm done....we agree to disagree....yall can continue this without me...

Modifié par whateverman7, 07 novembre 2012 - 04:05 .