253 réponses à ce sujet

[Vassar]

Fury says hi

[ASmoothCriminalx]

An all biotic team is not something to be scoffed at..

My favorite composition would be something like an AJ, Phoenix adept, HA (or shockwave class), and a fury.

Even one other person using biotics can make detonating BEs that much easier, though it does depend on which class you and the other person are using.

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

I'll try to be more clear about this...

Before the changes to fire/cryo explosions, since it was harder to set them up, people weren't using them as often. That means that you didn't have many primer stacking on the same target. Thus, it was easier to detonate a biotic explosion because you had a good chance that it would be the only primer in effect. Since biotic explosions are the best explosion of them all with the stagger and the damage, you had a better bang for your buck with your detonator. At worst, you had 1 other primer stacking, so using Warp twice in a row would at least give you the explosion at the cost of suffering a cooldown of 2.22 seconds between each cast.

After the changes to fire/cryo explosions, everybody's using them since they are easy to set up with the abundance of ammo consumable. Because now you have almost always more than 1 primer, you need more often than not 2, if not 3, detonators to finally get to your biotic explosion. Having to cast Warp 2, 3 even 4 times in a row adds a lot of 2.22 seconds cooldowns for less damage than you would get with the biotic explosion. Thus, since the change and because of the stacking method for primers, the biotics are "lessen" because their damage output is diluted among less damaging explosions.

There is also the fact that people attracted to "space magic" aren't necessarily attracted to fire/cryo/tech explosions. I mean it's cool and all, but if I play an Adept, it's for their biotic explosions, if I wanted to see tech burst everywhere, I wouldn't play an Adept if you know what I mean...
 
Which leads to my suggestion: A detonator should prioritize the type of primer it is made for first, then the usual stacking method would apply. That means that if I use a biotic detonator, it will check first if there is a biotic primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any biotic primer, then apply the current stacking method and detonate the last primer stacked. That also means that if I use a fire detonator, it will check first if there is a fire primer and detonate it if it exists. If there isn't any fire primer, then apply the current stacking methode and detonate the last primer stacked. Apply the same for cryo and tech detonators and you're set. That solution would give the priority to your own character affinities instead of having the most chaotic melting pot you can have... That would also restore some effectiveness to how you use ammo consumables and certain powers.

I hope my position has been clarified. If you see something that really doesn't make sense, feel free to give me a good counter point and we'll see if we can reach a better solution.

you made your position clear the first time, i just disagree.....but i'll respond to this post only:

so you're upset tech explosions can happen faster even if an enemy has been setup for a biotic explosion? and you want it changed to where the detonator will set off whatever explosion according to what was used on the enemy?...

i was gonna type a good reason why i disagree, until i really read what you said...it seems more like you're upset someone beat you to an explosion/took a kill from you, rather then you really thinking biotics are 'weaker'....in that case, i'm done....we agree to disagree....yall can continue this without me...

Read that post again and try to show me where I mentionned I was upset. It has nothing to do with kills stolen either, it has to do with no being able to perform a normal mechanic of the games because ammo consumables makes it very hard to pull off. My suggestion was to solve that.

I forfeit. You just can't read properly.

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 07 novembre 2012 - 04:31 .

[ArcaptSSX]

Biotics still aren't bad, but in my opinion the reason why they seem less interesting right now is greatly due to their weapon choices.
Since biotics generally rely more on recharge timers to do their damage they have light weapons, and light weaponry is often among the ones mentioned as lacking. That is especially the case for CQC ones since biotic powers often provide enough distance potential. Disciple, Scimitar to name them (and raptor, incisor or gpr for weapons with more range), all often mentioned on these boards. It's bad that the better option, by far, for a light shotgun is a pistol UR, thus ruled by RNG.
That, and on pc Shockwave is often hairdressing enemies rather than hurting them on quite a few biotic classes.

So when you're denied the biotic combo by more numerous tech users or by a bug, and are left with lackluster weapons to do the job, of course you're not going to be as happy as could be.

Modifié par JohnBobbyTheThird, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Read that post again and try to show me where I mentionned I was upset. It has nothing to do with kills stolen either, it has to do with no being able to perform a normal mechanic of the games because ammo consumables makes it very hard to pull off. My suggestion was to solve that.

I forfeit. You just can't read properly.

your whole post implied you were upset....look at the part talking about having to use warp 2, 3 times.....even with this post: the mechanic you want to pull off isnt that hard...having to use a detonator twice to set off an explosion isnt that hard...that makes it seem like you're upset you set something up for a BE and someone messed that BE up...

it wasnt a contest that you have to forfeit from...we're having a discussion, stating our opinions....but since i dont agree nor said 'you're right', you quit and start with insults...good ole bsn....

[QSec]

Still agree that primers should be prioritized in relation to the detonator, but...

From a playability perspective it's might not be quite that bad.  Let's assume I play with my Asari Adept using Warp+Throw BE Combos with Pierce and Force&Damage at Rank 6 for each.

vs Armor (Gold)
BE damage = 4366 every 3.69 secs.

Incindiary TE (caused by my throw damage hitting a primed target) = 1181 every 1.23 seconds.  Presumably, the other weapon-based user is firing on target the whole time and getting an additional benefit from the armor weaking from my warp. 

If I am in a public game and see my Warp get canceled by a weapon user (or everybody in the lobby equips ammo), then I could just keep throwing over the top of the weapon teammate(s) and generating TEs every 1.23 secs.   Even with a moderate DPS weapon by my teammate, I don't think the damage per second is that much different, is it?

Modifié par QSec, 07 novembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[wk38]

I understand the argument... While I still think there is plenty of reason to play adepts, there is no way I'm gonna say no to an update that brought us faster base cooldowns on biotic powers, and I DO like the idea of Biotics taking precedence over tech abilities as far as order of detonation...

The possible problem is that the game might get confused... If you hit something with Warp, then follow it up with throw that obviously makes a biotic explosion. If you warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then hit with overload, it will do a fire explosion... If the warp effect takes precedence... will you simply get nothing from overload until the warp effect has been detonated???

I think it's more a matter of what can and cannot be detonated... Something like fire and cryo explosions or tech burst that can be detonated by just about anything probably have to take precedence... It would be nice if biotics could, but I'm not sure whether or not the game can work that way...

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

Read that post again and try to show me where I mentionned I was upset. It has nothing to do with kills stolen either, it has to do with no being able to perform a normal mechanic of the games because ammo consumables makes it very hard to pull off. My suggestion was to solve that.

I forfeit. You just can't read properly.

your whole post implied you were upset....look at the part talking about having to use warp 2, 3 times.....even with this post: the mechanic you want to pull off isnt that hard...having to use a detonator twice to set off an explosion isnt that hard...that makes it seem like you're upset you set something up for a BE and someone messed that BE up...

it wasnt a contest that you have to forfeit from...we're having a discussion, stating our opinions....but since i dont agree nor said 'you're right', you quit and start with insults...good ole bsn....

I'm not upset. I didn't imply I was, sorry if you misunderstood me. Don't take for granted I'm yelling or anything, I'm simply stating the fact it's now harder to pull off biotic explosions because of other combos that are easier to detonate. This leads to more non-biotic explosions which do less damage than a bioitic explosion. Since the majority of the damage from Adepts comes from bioitic explosions, not detonating one when your target is primed for it gives you a lesser DPS and thus you're not at your full potential.

It's not the fact that using a detonator twice in a row is hard, but simply not necessary. You have to take extra care everytime you use a detonator to check which explosion has been detonated and this slows things if you want to be optimal. With Throw it's not "so bad" because the cooldown is very short, but when you're stuck with Reave, Shockwave or Warp, it's twice the time. This is not necessary, it adds complexity where it shouldn't for no real benefit to anyone. Imagine the Scorpion would do it's damage only if no one shoot the enemy between the time you hit your target and the time the projectile explode. That would be dumb, that would "gimp" the gun so much no one would like to use it often. The problem is they made that same mechanic apply to biotics, thus it's as dumb as it would be for the Scorpion.

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 07 novembre 2012 - 03:57 .

[TheThirdRace]

wk38 wrote...

I understand the argument... While I still think there is plenty of reason to play adepts, there is no way I'm gonna say no to an update that brought us faster base cooldowns on biotic powers, and I DO like the idea of Biotics taking precedence over tech abilities as far as order of detonation...

The possible problem is that the game might get confused... If you hit something with Warp, then follow it up with throw that obviously makes a biotic explosion. If you warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then hit with overload, it will do a fire explosion... If the warp effect takes precedence... will you simply get nothing from overload until the warp effect has been detonated???

I think it's more a matter of what can and cannot be detonated... Something like fire and cryo explosions or tech burst that can be detonated by just about anything probably have to take precedence... It would be nice if biotics could, but I'm not sure whether or not the game can work that way...

I think you misunderstood...

You...
Warp to prime the target (biotic)
Shoot inciendiary ammo (fire)

If you use Overload, it prioritize the same type of primer. I'm not sure what type is Overloard, but lets just says it's a Tech burst detonator. So what it would do is try to detonate a Tech burst. Since there's no primer for Tech burst, you then go with the next logical thing. Since there's a fire primer, you detonate a fire explosion. The Warp hasn't been touched because Overload doesn't apply to biotics. That means that Warp still prime the target.

If, instead of using Overload, you use Shockwave, it prioritize the same type of primer. Since Shockwave is a biotic detonator, it will first check if it can detonate a biotic explosion. In that case, because Warp is in effect, it detonates the biotic explosion. Since there have been an explosion, the only remaining primer is now Incendiary ammo for fire explosion.

You see, it's not an override that cancel other primers, it replace the stacking method used by a logical detonation scheme.

[QSec]

wk38 wrote...
If you warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then hit with overload, it will do a fire explosion... If the warp effect takes precedence... will you simply get nothing from overload until the warp effect has been detonated???

Don't want to speak for TheThirdRace, but I don't think he is saying that Biotic primers should get precedence, but that the explosion type should be prioritized by the type of detonator.
You warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then...
...hit with throw detonates the warp.
or
...hit with Overload detonates the incendiary ammo.

You might be right to question whether the game could even do this. Does it actually store the state of a primed target in "layers" or does the current effect replace the previous one?

I suppose one way to test it is to Warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo. If you throw and cause a tech explosions and "peel away the layer", then you should be able to throw again and detonate the biotic "layer". If you have to Warp again to set-up a BE, then that would suggest that it is replacing the previous priming effect and prioritizing might not even be possible with the current mechanics. New variables would need to be added to each enemy to store that information.

Modifié par QSec, 07 novembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

Still agree that primers should be prioritized in relation to the detonator, but...

From a playability perspective it's might not be quite that bad.  Let's assume I play with my Asari Adept using Warp+Throw BE Combos with Pierce and Force&Damage at Rank 6 for each.

vs Armor (Gold)
BE damage = 4366 every 3.69 secs.

Incindiary TE (caused by my throw damage hitting a primed target) = 1181 every 1.23 seconds.  Presumably, the other weapon-based user is firing on target the whole time and getting an additional benefit from the armor weaking from my warp. 

If I am in a public game and see my Warp get canceled by a weapon user (or everybody in the lobby equips ammo), then I could just keep throwing over the top of the weapon teammate(s) and generating TEs every 1.23 secs.   Even with a moderate DPS weapon by my teammate, I don't think the damage per second is that much different, is it?

Yes and no.

You have to take into consideration that not every Adept has access to Throw. Some have only Shockwave, Reave or Warp which are twice the cooldown, thus half the DPS you mentionned.

On top of that, you have to realize the biotic explosion does quite an amount of stagger that the other explosions lack comparatively speaking.

Finally, your argument works on armored units only. A Banshee that still has her barrier up doesn't get that much damage from a fire explosion. Or any other enemy with shield/barrier/health for that matter.

So in a sense, you're right that it still does a lot of damage, but this apply only in specific situations. All the while, a bioitic explosion would work in any situation for more damage than any other explosions. And lets not forget that a lot of people play Adepts for biotic explosions. Denying them that goal by saying they should be happy to get fire explosion is like saying they should be happy to get the Collector SMG instead of the Harrier since they're both Ultra-rares. The theory is sound, but we both know in practice no one would take the CSMG over the Harrier given the choice. It's a question of what you want from a class, if I really wanted to get fire explosions everywhere, I would not play an Adept. I'm not against Adept benefiting from fire explosions, but those explosions should be secondary to the primary goal: biotic explosions.

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

Don't want to speak for TheThirdRace, but I don't think he is saying that Biotic primers should get precedence, but that the explosion type should be prioritized by the type of detonator.
You warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then...
...hit with throw detonates the warp.
or
...hit with Overload detonates the incendiary ammo.

You might be right to question whether the game could even do this. Does it actually store the state of a primed target in "layers" or does the current effect replace the previous one?

I suppose one way to test it is to Warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo. If you throw and cause a tech explosions and "peel away the layer", then you should be able to throw again and detonate the biotic "layer". If you have to Warp again to set-up a BE, then that would suggest that it is replacing the previous priming effect and prioritizing might not even be possible with the current mechanics. New variables would need to be added to each enemy to store that information.

The way the current system works is by layers. A detonator will detonate the last primer stacked that can be detonated with it. It will not cancel any primer.

Any way you look at it, the solution I suggested would require a patch. It changes the code for the priorities, so it needs to update the game, updating the servers wouldn't work.

[wk38]

TheThirdRace wrote...

wk38 wrote...

I understand the argument... While I still think there is plenty of reason to play adepts, there is no way I'm gonna say no to an update that brought us faster base cooldowns on biotic powers, and I DO like the idea of Biotics taking precedence over tech abilities as far as order of detonation...

The possible problem is that the game might get confused... If you hit something with Warp, then follow it up with throw that obviously makes a biotic explosion. If you warp, then shoot with incendiary ammo and then hit with overload, it will do a fire explosion... If the warp effect takes precedence... will you simply get nothing from overload until the warp effect has been detonated???

I think it's more a matter of what can and cannot be detonated... Something like fire and cryo explosions or tech burst that can be detonated by just about anything probably have to take precedence... It would be nice if biotics could, but I'm not sure whether or not the game can work that way...

I think you misunderstood...

You...
Warp to prime the target (biotic)
Shoot inciendiary ammo (fire)

If you use Overload, it prioritize the same type of primer. I'm not sure what type is Overloard, but lets just says it's a Tech burst detonator. So what it would do is try to detonate a Tech burst. Since there's no primer for Tech burst, you then go with the next logical thing. Since there's a fire primer, you detonate a fire explosion. The Warp hasn't been touched because Overload doesn't apply to biotics. That means that Warp still prime the target.

If, instead of using Overload, you use Shockwave, it prioritize the same type of primer. Since Shockwave is a biotic detonator, it will first check if it can detonate a biotic explosion. In that case, because Warp is in effect, it detonates the biotic explosion. Since there have been an explosion, the only remaining primer is now Incendiary ammo for fire explosion.

You see, it's not an override that cancel other primers, it replace the stacking method used by a logical detonation scheme.

That makes sense... Like i said if they could make it happen, I would be more than willing to welcome the change, but idk if it'll happen... 

[wk38]

[quote]TheThirdRace wrote...

[quote]

Any way you look at it, the solution I suggested would require a patch. It changes the code for the priorities, so it needs to update the game, updating the servers wouldn't work.[/quote]

Yeah I'm hoping we'll get another patch, there were glitches and issues that didn't get addressed by the last patch, hopefully if they do another one this is something they could look into...

[TheThirdRace]

[quote]wk38 wrote...

[quote]TheThirdRace wrote...

[quote]

Any way you look at it, the solution I suggested would require a patch. It changes the code for the priorities, so it needs to update the game, updating the servers wouldn't work.[/quote]

Yeah I'm hoping we'll get another patch, there were glitches and issues that didn't get addressed by the last patch, hopefully if they do another one this is something they could look into...

[/quote]

Well, it would be very bad if we didn't have any other patch since they broke the Shadow Strike ability that cannot target Atlas with the last patch... And probably countless other small things. Looking at the bright side, there will probably another patch eventually

[QSec]

TheThirdRace wrote...
Imagine the Scorpion would do it's damage only if no one shoot the enemy between the time you hit your target and the time the projectile explode.

Nice analogy.

TheThirdRace wrote...
So in a sense, you're right that it still does a lot of damage, but this apply only in specific situations. All the while, a bioitic explosion would work in any situation for more damage than any other explosions.

Agree. And it's much worse when the primer is Cryo instead incendiary.

TheThirdRace wrote...
The way the current system works is by layers. A detonator will detonate the last primer stacked that can be detonated with it. It will not cancel any primer.

Then, I think the devs should take a look at it. It makes a huge gameplay difference to the BE-based players.

Modifié par QSec, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I'm not upset. I didn't imply I was, sorry if you misunderstood me. Don't take for granted I'm yelling or anything, I'm simply stating the fact it's now harder to pull off biotic explosions because of other combos that are easier to detonate. This leads to more non-biotic explosions which do less damage than a bioitic explosion. Since the majority of the damage from Adepts comes from bioitic explosions, not detonating one when your target is primed for it gives you a lesser DPS and thus you're not at your full potential.

It's not the fact that using a detonator twice in a row is hard, but simply not necessary. You have to take extra care everytime you use a detonator to check which explosion has been detonated and this slows things if you want to be optimal. With Throw it's not "so bad" because the cooldown is very short, but when you're stuck with Reave, Shockwave or Warp, it's twice the time. This is not necessary, it adds complexity where it shouldn't for no real benefit to anyone. Imagine the Scorpion would do it's damage only if no one shoot the enemy between the time you hit your target and the time the projectile explode. That would be dumb, that would "gimp" the gun so much no one would like to use it often. The problem is they made that same mechanic apply to biotics, thus it's as dumb as it would be for the Scorpion.

getting BEs is just as easy as before...the change to make setting off non-biotic explosions easier was needed because before they were too hard to pull off....you had to kill the enemy to register those types of explosions...all they did was make other explosions like BEs...making a change like you want to me seems unnecessary....adepts and BEs are still as powerful, if not more, than other characters/explosions...and that's what this has all been about: whether or not adepts are 'weaker' compared to other character types....

talking about your gun comparison: just cause BEs arent going off, doesnt mean adepts are being gimped...their primers do damage to targets...them helping other types of explosions go off is doing damage to targets...they have guns to do damage to targets...which in the end, is all that matters to me: getting the job done...

[QSec]

whateverman7 wrote...

 just cause BEs arent going off, doesnt mean adepts are being gimped...

um, yea it does. 

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

 just cause BEs arent going off, doesnt mean adepts are being gimped...

um, yea it does. 

Nice to see someone else see the flaw in his logic...

[whateverman7]

QSec wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

 just cause BEs arent going off, doesnt mean adepts are being gimped...

um, yea it does. 

how so?...how are BEs not going off everytime you want gimping adepts?...if all you're relying on is BEs, it's you that's gimping the character, not anything in the game

Modifié par whateverman7, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Nice to see someone else see the flaw in his logic...

how is it flawed?...my logic comes from me playing the characters.....when i play adepts (any biotic), BEs dont go off everytime i want, but i still cause a lot of damage during a game and do pretty well...they arent 'weaker' in comparison to any non-biotic characters...and that's what this thread was about right? biotic chaaracters being 'weaker' compared to non-biotics and why would any use a biotic because of that

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

Nice to see someone else see the flaw in his logic...

how is it flawed?...my logic comes from me playing the characters.....when i play adepts (any biotic), BEs dont go off everytime i want, but i still cause a lot of damage during a game and do pretty well...they arent 'weaker' in comparison to any non-biotic characters...and that's what this thread was about right? biotic chaaracters being 'weaker' compared to non-biotics and why would any use a biotic because of that

If BE not going off as often is not a problem, how come you say yourself that changes to fire/cryo explosions were necessary? If you accept that one type of explosion can be totally nullified by the changes, we should remove all explosions from the game and call it even.

You're saying something along the line: "Yeah, you're supposed to do extra damage with BE, but even if you can't you still have your gun and your melee to make up the difference..." Which is right in some aspect. But I could also say "After theses changes, your gun is gonna do 30% of its normal damage, but thats ok cause you still have melee and concussive shot..." Which is also right in some aspect. Do you see the problem with that kind of statement?

Adepts before the changes = big damage with BE. (and damage scale depending on difficulty!)
Adepts after the changes = less damage because you freaking can't put out a biotic explosion as often.

How can you not see it?

And why your solution to a power problem is to use your gun? I use it already, but to be as effective as before I should just use the same loadout as a Destroyer and forget about the powers because I won't be able to use BE anyway... You play an Adept for their powers, not the weapons and BE are the single most important source of damage. Stop trying to solve everything with a gun, a grenade or melee. It's a power problem, solve it at the source.

[QSec]

whateverman7 wrote...

how so?...how are BEs not going off everytime you want gimping adepts?...if all you're relying on is BEs, it's you that's gimping the character, not anything in the game

Totally agree, speccing our biotic characters for Biotic Explosions is gimping them because of teammate's ammo consumable overriding the warp prime and that shouldn't be.

[QSec]

whateverman7 wrote...
and that's what this thread was about right? biotic chaaracters being 'weaker' compared to non-biotics and why would any use a biotic because of that

Yes. I thought TheThirdRace was saying their cooldown timers could be adjusted to bring their DPS more in line with weapon-based counterparts. I agree with his math. Personally, I think this is by design that purely biotics-based characters fit somewhere in between level 1 weapons and level 10.

I do think they should do something about ammo consumables causing issues with priming for BE, though.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

If BE not going off as often is not a problem, how come you say yourself that changes to fire/cryo explosions were necessary? If you accept that one type of explosion can be totally nullified by the changes, we should remove all explosions from the game and call it even.

You're saying something along the line: "Yeah, you're supposed to do extra damage with BE, but even if you can't you still have your gun and your melee to make up the difference..." Which is right in some aspect. But I could also say "After theses changes, your gun is gonna do 30% of its normal damage, but thats ok cause you still have melee and concussive shot..." Which is also right in some aspect. Do you see the problem with that kind of statement?

Adepts before the changes = big damage with BE. (and damage scale depending on difficulty!)
Adepts after the changes = less damage because you freaking can't put out a biotic explosion as often.

How can you not see it?

And why your solution to a power problem is to use your gun? I use it already, but to be as effective as before I should just use the same loadout as a Destroyer and forget about the powers because I won't be able to use BE anyway... You play an Adept for their powers, not the weapons and BE are the single most important source of damage. Stop trying to solve everything with a gun, a grenade or melee. It's a power problem, solve it at the source.

the changes to tech/cyro were neccessary because you couldnt set them off as easy as BEs...they now go off as easily as BEs do...that change doesnt negate/nullify BEs, BEs still go off as easily as they did before the change...

no, i havent talked about extra damage....BEs still do whatever level of damage they do...not being able to do them all the time doesnt mean they are weaker than before or other explosions...your gun line doesnt make sense nor apply because no one has mentioned taking power away....

so you're upset they changed it that all the explosions are equal now in the manner they go off?....lol...how does that make sense? how does that show biotics are weaker?......it doesnt because it's not true....the change didnt do anything to BEs, you can still do them as easily as before....also, you said i wasnt being fair, but you think it was fair that the other explosions didnt work like BEs...if they changed it the other way, made BEs work like the other explosions, you'd really be upset lol

there is no power problem...BEs are still as powerful as ever....and no, my solution isnt just use a gun...i mention using a gun cause the game is setup for you to use a combo of both (powers/weapons), not just do all of 1 thing...i've said, when i play as adepts my powers are first, guns are secondary....that doesnt mean i use the worst gun, but i do use 1....

like i said: it's not the game, it's you that's gimping the character...but since you cant play the game how you want, it must be something wrong with the game....good ole bsn lol