253 réponses à ce sujet

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

" So if every other bullet in your gun did 10% of it's normal damage, it wouldn't make you weaker? "

Is is a better comparison now? I'll say it again, you're very very picky, as if you just don't want to hear it... Even if you are right to say Warp will still do damage, 400 damage compared to 4000 from a BE on Platinum is kind of a big step if you ask me...

Saying that doing less BE doesn't make you weaker sounds like BS to me. But that's only backed by my own experience and mathematics, so who knows...

naw, not picky, just responding to what yall post

and no, that's still not a better comparison...cause powers do more than 10% damage...not only that, your teammates have a chance to use that power to set off another type of explosion, which is doing damage...

just cause you're doing them around every 7-8 secs instead of 3-4 doesnt make you weaker....seriously, you think you're weaker after figuring in all the damage you're doing: BEs, weapons, and powers in 7-8 compared to other character types?...if so, i dont know what to tell yall.....

it bothers yall you cant do BEs every 3.26 secs....it doesnt bother me cause inbetween those BEs, i'm shooting and using powers to keep dealing damage.....also, you can say whatever difficulty you want, what i'm saying applies to them all, cause i play them all

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

" So if every other bullet in your gun did 10% of it's normal damage, it wouldn't make you weaker? "

Is is a better comparison now? I'll say it again, you're very very picky, as if you just don't want to hear it... Even if you are right to say Warp will still do damage, 400 damage compared to 4000 from a BE on Platinum is kind of a big step if you ask me...

Saying that doing less BE doesn't make you weaker sounds like BS to me. But that's only backed by my own experience and mathematics, so who knows...

naw, not picky, just responding to what yall post

and no, that's still not a better comparison...cause powers do more than 10% damage...not only that, your teammates have a chance to use that power to set off another type of explosion, which is doing damage...

just cause you're doing them around every 7-8 secs instead of 3-4 doesnt make you weaker....seriously, you think you're weaker after figuring in all the damage you're doing: BEs, weapons, and powers in 7-8 compared to other character types?...if so, i dont know what to tell yall.....

it bothers yall you cant do BEs every 3.26 secs....it doesnt bother me cause inbetween those BEs, i'm shooting and using powers to keep dealing damage.....also, you can say whatever difficulty you want, what i'm saying applies to them all, cause i play them all

Yes 10% damage is about accurate on Platinum. Biotic explosions, and all explosions for that matter scales depending on the difficulty. Warp is doing around 400 damage while a biotic explosion will do around 4000. Do the math and I didn't just say 10% with no reason.

The reason for the scaling? Because Bioware wanted to control the amount of damage done by those explosions so they stay relevant. So Bioware themselves confirmed that to stay relevant, all explosions (including biotics) needed to scale depending of the difficulty. How come they judged it was required that all explosions do more damage to balance things? Maybe because they know what they're talking about? And now that fire/cryo explosions are all over the place and prevent more often than not a biotic explosions, the Adepts do less damage. Considering Bioware was happy with the balance for biotic explosion before that change, how come less biotic explosions doesn't make Adepts weaker since they do less damage than expected?

As for all I suggested, you don't have to do them all. Pick one, do it and check if it give back the damage lost to unexploded biotic explosions. If it does and you're satified with it, stop there. Even before the changes, I feel Adepts needed slightly lowered cooldowns, not because of Bronze or Silver, but Gold and Platinum. Coming from a guy that plays almost exclusively Adepts & Platinum, so I do have over 250h of experience using that combo. I never said Adepts aren't good, only that they lack slightly considering all the buffs in the last few months.

And for those saying their Fury says "Hi", keep in mind you're proving my point by pointing out the only Adept that do not "suffer" from cooldowns and biotic explosions not exploding. Drell is from the same category as the Fury as long as you have grenades, because when they don't, they "suffer" the same fate as the other Adepts.

[QSec]

whateverman7 wrote...

it bothers yall you cant do BEs every 3.26 secs....it doesnt bother me cause inbetween those BEs, i'm shooting and using powers to keep dealing damage.....also, you can say whatever difficulty you want, what i'm saying applies to them all, cause i play them all

Damage per second with Asari Adept equipped with an N7 Hurricane spamming Warp/Throw to cause biotic explosion and firing on target with the N7 Hurricane constantly between power casting versus armored opponent (assuming a .25 second animation interruption to weapons fire per cast)...

On Bronze, Biotic Explosion every 3.26 secs = 1134
On Bronce, Biotic Explosion every 7.52 secs = 864
On Gold, Biotic Explosion every 3.26 secs = 1878
On Gold, Biotic Explosion every 7.52 secs = 1187

Detonating biotic explosion every other time results in a 24% reduction in total damage output on Bronze and a 37% damage reduction on Gold.  

[masleslie]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

In combination, this means that unless you have dedicated pairs of biotics working in concert, it's increasingly difficult to detonate your own biotic combos because your teammates keep layering their own non-biotic primers on top of the primer stack.

I think you might need to respec your characters or see the Biotic doctor. I have no trouble detonating my own combos with Asari Adept, Asari Vanguard, Human Sentinel, N7 Fury, Asari Valkyrie, even the little Volus Adept. I'm a casual gamer so if I can do it I can't see there is a problem.

Maybe you've been unlucky enough to be going head to head with Tech combo players who were a bit agressive & not paying attention to what you were doing. We still need to settle down again since some players may be a little spam happy on Tech Combos after the buff. But seriously I think Biotic combos work fine. So do Tech combos. It's great to have them both.

[WMcAlister]

My Valkyrie and her homegirl Justicar laugh at your supposition. Laugh I say!

[QSec]

masleslie wrote...
Maybe you've been unlucky enough to be going head to head with Tech combo players who were a bit agressive & not paying attention to what you were doing. We still need to settle down again since some players may be a little spam happy on Tech Combos after the buff. But seriously I think Biotic combos work fine. So do Tech combos. It's great to have them both.

Post patch, if an enemy is primed for biotic explosion (Warp/Reave/whatever) and is hit by a bullet from a gun equipped with an ammo consumable like Incendiary or Cryo Ammo, the resulting biotic detonator (ie throw/pull) detonates the fire/cryo primer, not the biotic one.  Since tech explosion do significantly less damage than biotic explosions the contribution of the biotic on the squad is diminished. 
As a casual player, perhaps, you are in squads that aren't equipping ammo consumables that prime tech explosions as often and, therefore, aren't seeing the issue? 

[QSec]

WMcAlister wrote...

My Valkyrie and her homegirl Justicar laugh at your supposition. Laugh I say!

Which supposition?
Tech primers interferring with biotic explosions reduces the damage output of biotic characters to the point that weapons-based characters are more effective?
or
Slightly reducing cooldown timers on the base powers of biotic primers would bring overall damage capability of biotic characters closer to weapons-based characters?

[TheThirdRace]

QSec wrote...

WMcAlister wrote...

My Valkyrie and her homegirl Justicar laugh at your supposition. Laugh I say!

Which supposition?
Tech primers interferring with biotic explosions reduces the damage output of biotic characters to the point that weapons-based characters are more effective?
or
Slightly reducing cooldown timers on the base powers of biotic primers would bring overall damage capability of biotic characters closer to weapons-based characters?

Any way you look at it, his comment doesn't make sense.

The Valkyrie is like the Fury, you don't have any cooldown per se for a biotic explosion (AF + Warp). So both suppositions you made (to which I agree) don't apply here... no cooldown = no problem.

As for the Justicar, he just prove both your points. With Pull + Reave or Pull+Biotic Sphere or Biotic Sphere + Reave, the small cooldown of Pull/Biotic Sphere(as a primer 1.38 or 0 second) reduce the problem caused by other explosions because there's less time to be affected by them. He thus do more damage because there's no tech primer in play and because the reduce cooldown help dish out more biotic explosions, proving both your points. If he's talking about Reave + Biotic Sphere, he's delusionnal, because the cooldown of Reave affects him as much as the other Adepts.

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 09 novembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[Moxy_Pirate]

I play mostly Biotic classes and am top of the scoreboard 9 out of 10 times easily.

Modifié par Moxy_Pirate, 09 novembre 2012 - 08:57 .

[QSec]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

I play mostly Biotic classes and am top of the scoreboard 9 out of 10 times easily.

As a biotic player, you haven't found it frustrating when you can't detonate your biotic primer due to the ammo consumable of your squadmates weapons? 

[ParanoidDrone]

masleslie wrote...

ParanoidDrone wrote...

In combination, this means that unless you have dedicated pairs of biotics working in concert, it's increasingly difficult to detonate your own biotic combos because your teammates keep layering their own non-biotic primers on top of the primer stack.

I think you might need to respec your characters or see the Biotic doctor. I have no trouble detonating my own combos with Asari Adept, Asari Vanguard, Human Sentinel, N7 Fury, Asari Valkyrie, even the little Volus Adept. I'm a casual gamer so if I can do it I can't see there is a problem.

Maybe you've been unlucky enough to be going head to head with Tech combo players who were a bit agressive & not paying attention to what you were doing. We still need to settle down again since some players may be a little spam happy on Tech Combos after the buff. But seriously I think Biotic combos work fine. So do Tech combos. It's great to have them both.

Just the other day I was in a full match on Jade.  One of the other players was a Paladin, dunno about the rest.  I was a Fury with a Talon II and no other weapons, so my cooldowns were pretty damn fast.

I threw Dark Channel onto an Atlas.  Then I had to use Throw 4 times in order to finally detonate it -- it literally triggered every other elemental combo before I was able to peel away the priming layers and get back to Dark Channel again.

Granted, it looks badass as hell to get so many different combos on the same target, but it's still an unnecessary element of frustration.  And it's not just powers that are the issue -- ammo mods (Incendiary, Cryo, and Disruptor) also prime for their respective explosions, and all 3 are absurdly popular because of it.  It's obviously unreasonable to expect teammates to not shoot at your target while you wait for your cooldowns, so the best alternative seems to be prioritizing different combo types based on the detonator power rather than using a blind stack system.

[Raphamon]

Biotics are nowhere as good as they once were. The Asari Adept used to be my favorite character but with all the changes to the game I now get higher scores using the Female Quarian Engineer than I do with the Asari Adept. And that's with a Female Quarian Engineer that is specced with a focus on max Cryo Blast and building all of her other skills around Cryo Blast and a Turret with Shock, Armor Pierce and Flamethrower. She is slowy becoming my new favorite character, but most likely Bioware will screw me over again in a few weeks and bring out another update that totally messes up this character as well. That is sort of Bioware's thing afterall. They only care about keeping the gun users happy. Power users get screwed in this game with each new update. At least I have a backup plan now. I've taken a liking to the Turian Soldier. So if push comes to shove I can just use him once Bioware have finally messed up all the power focused characters.

Also Tech powers seem to take priority over Biotic powers in all situations. So that's another thing the Tech users have over the Biotics.

Modifié par Raphamon, 09 novembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[Buckapocka]

Dunno, but the Fury lives up to her name... You just walk in a group of baddies, and errythang goes BOOM No other tech/combat classes are capable of that without grenades.

[TheThirdRace]

Moxy_Pirate wrote...

I play mostly Biotic classes and am top of the scoreboard 9 out of 10 times easily.

I play mostly Adepts, I top the scoreboard 99% of the time all the while killing less enemy than any other players and having only 3 medals. My point? Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience compared to guns. Thus, your argument cannot be considered to evaluate how good or not Adepts really are.

[TheThirdRace]

Buckapocka wrote...

Dunno, but the Fury lives up to her name... You just walk in a group of baddies, and errythang goes BOOM No other tech/combat classes are capable of that without grenades.

As said many, many, many times already, the Fury has no cooldown whatsoever for biotic explosions using AF + Throw. The Fury example doesn't apply since it can be argued it's the only Adept not having the problem. 1 exception cannot be use to make it the rule...

[QSec]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

 It's obviously unreasonable to expect teammates to not shoot at your target while you wait for your cooldowns, so the best alternative seems to be prioritizing different combo types based on the detonator power rather than using a blind stack system.

Makes sense to me.  BTW, you and I were on a couple PUG Silver games the other day with your N7 Fury.  I switched to Human Sentinel and specced out for BE w/Warp&Throw, but I just couldn't keep up with you.  Dude, you were like a hamster after a double expresso.

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

I play mostly Adepts, I top the scoreboard 99% of the time all the while killing less enemy than any other players and having only 3 medals. My point? Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience compared to guns. Thus, your argument cannot be considered to evaluate how good or not Adepts really are.

adepts are weaker, but yet you top the scoreboard 99% of the time using one in plat games?...so either you've been arguing just to argue or you just felt like bragging about your skills....lol...it doesnt even matter, i'm done

[Ashen One]

The "powers vs weapons" mentality is still as strong as ever, I see....

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

I play mostly Adepts, I top the scoreboard 99% of the time all the while killing less enemy than any other players and having only 3 medals. My point? Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience compared to guns. Thus, your argument cannot be considered to evaluate how good or not Adepts really are.

adepts are weaker, but yet you top the scoreboard 99% of the time using one in plat games?...so either you've been arguing just to argue or you just felt like bragging about your skills....lol...it doesnt even matter, i'm done

Neither, I was just pointing out that the scores  doesn't reflect what happened in-game. With less medals and less kills I still had a better score... Does that really sound like bragging my goodness or me saying there's a problem with the score calculation and you shouldn't base your argument on it? In case you really doubt, it's the later...

[QSec]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

I play mostly Adepts, I top the scoreboard 99% of the time all the while killing less enemy than any other players and having only 3 medals. My point? Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience compared to guns. Thus, your argument cannot be considered to evaluate how good or not Adepts really are.

adepts are weaker, but yet you top the scoreboard 99% of the time using one in plat games?...so either you've been arguing just to argue or you just felt like bragging about your skills....lol...it doesnt even matter, i'm done

Matters to me.  I enjoy playing adepts.  And I don't like the idea that only a few adept characters can truly contribute proportionally to the speed at which a squad can dispatch it's enemies. 

[whateverman7]

TheThirdRace wrote...

Neither, I was just pointing out that the scores  doesn't reflect what happened in-game. With less medals and less kills I still had a better score... Does that really sound like bragging my goodness or me saying there's a problem with the score calculation and you shouldn't base your argument on it? In case you really doubt, it's the later...

actually it does...this whole time you've been arguing how weak the biotics are compared to other character types....how they dont do as much damage as those other types...yet, you come back and say how you top the score board 99%of the time in plat games using the very thing that's you're calling weaker....that comment says either:  they're not as weak as you claim; or, if you still think they are weaker, you're just bragging about skills claiming how you top the scorebaord using something that's weaker.....

i dont think you can base an argument about skill on the scorebaord, but you can use it to tell if a character type is doing damaging....if the character is doing damage, it's gonna score points....if it's not doing damage, it wont....the fact that you and others claim to be doing well on the scoreboard using these 'weaker' characters means they are during damage and arent as weak as yall claim

[ParanoidDrone]

QSec wrote...

ParanoidDrone wrote...

 It's obviously unreasonable to expect teammates to not shoot at your target while you wait for your cooldowns, so the best alternative seems to be prioritizing different combo types based on the detonator power rather than using a blind stack system.

Makes sense to me.  BTW, you and I were on a couple PUG Silver games the other day with your N7 Fury.  I switched to Human Sentinel and specced out for BE w/Warp&Throw, but I just couldn't keep up with you.  Dude, you were like a hamster after a double expresso.

I'm very unused to people recognizing me online, but I'm glad I made an impression.  I think.

(I try to take advantage of AF's shield leech effect to stay alive in otherwise suicidal situations.  It doesn't always work but I have fun trying.)

Feel free to friend me on Origin.

[whateverman7]

QSec wrote...

Matters to me.  I enjoy playing adepts.  And I don't like the idea that only a few adept characters can truly contribute proportionally to the speed at which a squad can dispatch it's enemies.  

my 'it doesnt matter' comment wasnt about biotics, it was about an answer to what i asked....anyway, this whole time i've said i play as biotics....i enjoy the character type....that's why i came in this thread, and that's why i think yall are overexaggerating with how 'weak' they supposedly are....

also, stop saying only a few can contribute...all the biotic characters can contribute and hold their own on any difficulty level on any team mix

[ParanoidDrone]

whateverman7 wrote...

QSec wrote...

Matters to me.  I enjoy playing adepts.  And I don't like the idea that only a few adept characters can truly contribute proportionally to the speed at which a squad can dispatch it's enemies.  

my 'it doesnt matter' comment wasnt about biotics, it was about an answer to what i asked....anyway, this whole time i've said i play as biotics....i enjoy the character type....that's why i came in this thread, and that's why i think yall are overexaggerating with how 'weak' they supposedly are....

also, stop saying only a few can contribute...all the biotic characters can contribute and hold their own on any difficulty level on any team mix

Yes, they can contribute just fine, but the game mechanics as they currently stand prevent them from contributing at their maximum potential, with a number of exceptions that can be counted on one hand.  (Fury, Justicar, Drell, and Valkyrie.)

[TheThirdRace]

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

TheThirdRace wrote...

I play mostly Adepts, I top the scoreboard 99% of the time all the while killing less enemy than any other players and having only 3 medals. My point? Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience compared to guns. Thus, your argument cannot be considered to evaluate how good or not Adepts really are.

adepts are weaker, but yet you top the scoreboard 99% of the time using one in plat games?...so either you've been arguing just to argue or you just felt like bragging about your skills....lol...it doesnt even matter, i'm done

Neither, I was just pointing out that the scores doesn't reflect what happened in-game. With less medals and less kills I still had a better score... Does that really sound like bragging my goodness or me saying there's a problem with the score calculation and you shouldn't base your argument on it? In case you really doubt, it's the later...

actually it does...this whole time you've been arguing how weak the biotics are compared to other character types....how they dont do as much damage as those other types...yet, you come back and say how you top the score board 99%of the time in plat games using the very thing that's you're calling weaker....that comment says either:  they're not as weak as you claim; or, if you still think they are weaker, you're just bragging about skills claiming how you top the scorebaord using something that's weaker.....

i dont think you can base an argument about skill on the scorebaord, but you can use it to tell if a character type is doing damaging....if the character is doing damage, it's gonna score points....if it's not doing damage, it wont....the fact that you and others claim to be doing well on the scoreboard using these 'weaker' characters means they are during damage and arent as weak as yall claim

If you take something out of context you can make it tell whatever you want. I took the liberty to repeat the whole discussion with the other guy so you can see the reasonning behind it.

As you can read, I top the scoreboard BUT with only 3 medals and less kills than everyone else. Biotic explosions give a ridiculous amount of experience. If I can pull 25 kills with BE, I've got more than 75% of that score done. Killing a Canibal with Warp will give me something like 300 experience while killing it with a biotic explosion will give me more than 3 times as much.

Because of biotic explosions giving that much experience, I can top the scoreboard even by being the worst player of the game. You cannot base yourself on the scoreboard when it comes to Biotics because of this. My score means nothing, only that I managed to pull off some biotic explosions along the way and that's it. The other players killed much more enemies than me and at a faster pace too. Would you say a character would be overpowered if he had a score of 100k for 5 melee kills while doing nothing else for the remaining of the game? No, I would say he benefits from a bad design in how experience is calculated, nothing to do with how he fared in the game.

How can you think I try to brag when I openly state that I'm the worst player of the game? I'm good, don't get me wrong, but I'm still the weakest player on the team when I use an Adept (other than Fury). Curiously, I can never get the same score with any other class, just like if there was something special with Adepts, something like biotic explosions that give way too much experience...

Modifié par TheThirdRace, 10 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .