49 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteThunder]

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

[Plaintiff]

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

Sales numbers are not indicative of literary merit.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 novembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Palipride47]

Plaintiff wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't really care what this man thinks. I haven't played any of his games and I don't intend to pick up Project Eternity.

I want Bioware to keep doing romances. It does them very well, and pretty much no other company is doing it, so I don't see the problem.

You haven't played Fallout 2, Planescape, IWD, IWD II, KotOR II, NWN2, Alpha Protocol or New Vegas?  That's pretty impressive.

Sorry, I just got chills for a second realizing that Avellone worked on ALL of those games.  That's like a greatest hits list for RPG writing.  And Icewind Dale.

I own New Vegas. I have not got around to playing it.

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

+1.

Bioware might get made fun of for it (might... *shifty eyes*...no, they do). But no one else does it. Or they do it because people think Bioware is so popular just for the alien/ elf sex and it is terribly executed i.e. Amulet of Mara in Skyrim. 

Romance and sex as character relationship development is just different.

And this is not at all surprisng since I already knew this guy hates romances. And some people get a whiff of romance in a game and scream "Sims"

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

In that case, Super Mario and Sims are video game literary masterpieces. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[WhiteThunder]

Plaintiff wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

Sales numbers are not indicative of literary merit.

Clearly. Bioware and Bethesda sell far more games than Obsidian every year.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Lolz. Most of his answers were pretty tongue in cheek, so I wouldn't rule out romances from project eternity. Considering they were in many of the games he was the lead designer for, I'm pretty sure they'll be in PE. Just don't expect them to be the conventional Bioware romp; they'll probably take on the form of Planescape's psuedo romances. Which I thought were damned good.

[Atakuma]

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

Obsidian games only make money because they are usually sequels in successful franchises.

Modifié par Atakuma, 01 novembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[WhiteThunder]

Atakuma wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

But it doesn't matter if he's a good writer. So are the people behind Dragon Age. His approach to character development isn't any better than theirs. It's just different.

Avellone isn't a good writer, he is the best writer.  There's a reason Obsidian games sell very well despite their bugs, and that reason is named Chris Avellone

Obsidian games only make money because they are usually sequels in successful franchises.

If I wanted to be rude, I could say the same thing about the last three years worth of Bioware games.  But, seeing as how that's pretty close to the truth, it would be mean to say.  So I won't.

[Foolsfolly]

Nerevar-as wrote...

I thought it was well known Avellone isn´t a fan of romance sub-plots.

Yeah. Someone really broke his heart once and he's never gotten over it.

To be honest, I'd actually enjoy some of his ideas in a game. I know for a fact there are many others who wouldn't. But it'd be cool to have a romance option that was just doomed from the start and miserable...oh, yeah. Morrigan.

[Wulfram]

I don't particularly agree on romance.

always ask “why the player should give a ****?” with every design decision, lore choice, and faction design. When fleshing out the world, keep in mind the player’s role as an agent of change, not your personal presentation. While you do want to put yourself and topics you’re passionate about in a title, that doesn’t mean crap if the player can’t interact with it in a way that empowers them.

This is the bit of that interview I agree with.

[David7204]

Chris Avellone is either famous or notorious for not wanting romance in his games unless they end badly. This is nothing new.

Also, he is really not that great of a storyteller.

Modifié par David7204, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[Palipride47]

*fair enough, kinda petty, sorry Dave*

David7204 wrote...

Chris Avellone is either famous or notorious for not wanting romance in his games unless they end badly. This is nothing new. 

Also, he is really not that great of a storyteller. 

But this is still an opinion. Not fact, you just happen to not like his writing style. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[David7204]

Err...yeah? How is that a contradiction at all?

And really, that's somewhat an of unfair simplification.

Modifié par David7204, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:25 .

[Sanunes]

Honestly if its not going to fit in Project: Eternity I am fine with it, like the BSN points out on a regular basis because something is good in one game doesn't make it a good additional to all games.

[Doctoglethorpe]

I don't see how any of that would require the exlusion of "disneyesque" romance subplots.

Those subplots have become one of the best parts of Bioware games.  They've come a long way from "I love you, I love you too, lets sex."

[Foolsfolly]

David7204 wrote...

Chris Avellone is either famous or notorious for not wanting romance in his games unless they end badly. This is nothing new.

Also, he is really not that great of a storyteller.

I don't know. He's got a mean streak for deconstruction. Hand him a trope and he'll break it down to all its faults and problems. Many of his games are made in such a way that there's never really a good or bad side to anyone. And the amount of choices possible also seems to generally water-down the narratives.

His most straight forward simple linear narrative that I've played was probably Dead Money. Which was a rather great story about greed and obession. I thought it was great. Hell your PC can also be so blinded by greed that it kills them (in two different ways via the vault and carrying too much gold means you can't get out in time).

So I think a lot of the preceived weaknesses in Obsidian narratives is entirely due to the fact that as a mandate they as a company put player agency above just about anything else.

And that's without bringing up Planescape: Torment which is apparently his best work. I'll... likely download it one day just to give it a play. But as of right now I cannot speak for it... since I've never played it.

[Gibb_Shepard]

David7204 wrote...

Also, he is really not that great of a storyteller.

Play Planescape: Torment. It's impossible to say such a thing after experiencing that game's story.

[David7204]

Ah. I haven't played that. I'm basing this from playing both original Fallouts and New Vegas.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

I don't see how any of that would require the exlusion of "disneyesque" romance subplots.

Those subplots have become one of the best parts of Bioware games.  They've come a long way from "I love you, I love you too, lets sex."

They really haven't. DA2's romance structure was probably the worst yet in that regard. The romanceable characters are treated like sex dolls for the protagonist, suddenly falling in love with him/her because you chose the flirty option.

Morrigan's was probably the best, as SHE was the one who initiated the romance. She had you wrapped around her pinky the entire time. If Bioware can somehow come back to that kind of romance, where the character has her own motivations and scruples that have to do with the protagonist, then they'll be getting somewhere. But after seeing quotes from Gaider, he sees the romance options as characters who are Protagonist-sexual. Not showing interest before you press the heart button, and then suddenly they're all up in your grill stroking your ego. Not cool.

[Maria Caliban]

Roflbox wrote...

I was reading this interview about Project Eternity and Chris Avellone (who doesn't love this guy?) and this answer really well sounds amazing. Bioware has been using romance in their games forever and it doesn't always help the story frankly it hardly ever has not the way Alistir/Morrigan with the Warden did in Origins at least. Time for a change?

No.

I've suggested that romances be limited to two companions and integrated into the plot but Avellone's anti-romance talks continue to remind me of a 16-year-old boy desperately fearful of girly things and the cooties they bring.

[Gibb_Shepard]

David7204 wrote...

Ah. I haven't played that. I'm basing this from playing both original Fallouts and New Vegas.

I recommend the **** out of it. It's an IE game like Baldur's Gate, but it's setting and story-line are unlike anything ever done before, and have yet to be done again. I played it for the entirety of last week, and i haven't done that with a game since... i can't even remember.

Imo, the story in New Vegas and Fallout 2 (Which i honestly thought was far worse than New Vegas, i don't see how it's touted as the best Fallout game) aren't even in the same league as PS:T. Sorry if i'm coming off as a bit enthusiastic, but having just beaten this game for the first time recently (After playing the overhyped BG games, and coming of disappointed) i'm still pumped from the awesomness.

IT'S AWESOME.

@Caliban: Have you seen the guy? Avellone has probably had the most womenz in the gaming industry. And, once again, i recommend PS:T for his unique take on romance. They're very carthartic, without needing a romp to make it so.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Foolsfolly]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Roflbox wrote...

I was reading this interview about Project Eternity and Chris Avellone (who doesn't love this guy?) and this answer really well sounds amazing. Bioware has been using romance in their games forever and it doesn't always help the story frankly it hardly ever has not the way Alistir/Morrigan with the Warden did in Origins at least. Time for a change?

No.

I've suggested that romances be limited to two companions and integrated into the plot but Avellone's anti-romance talks continue to remind me of a 16-year-old boy desperately fearful of girly things and the cooties they bring.

I'm telling you. Someone really broke his heart once. And now he's so cynical about romance that he can't allow 'forever after' past his lips without smiling ironically.

[Foolsfolly]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

I don't see how any of that would require the exlusion of "disneyesque" romance subplots.

Those subplots have become one of the best parts of Bioware games.  They've come a long way from "I love you, I love you too, lets sex."

They really haven't. DA2's romance structure was probably the worst yet in that regard. The romanceable characters are treated like sex dolls for the protagonist, suddenly falling in love with him/her because you chose the flirty option.

Morrigan's was probably the best, as SHE was the one who initiated the romance. She had you wrapped around her pinky the entire time. If Bioware can somehow come back to that kind of romance, where the character has her own motivations and scruples that have to do with the protagonist, then they'll be getting somewhere. But after seeing quotes from Gaider, he sees the romance options as characters who are Protagonist-sexual. Not showing interest before you press the heart button, and then suddenly they're all up in your grill stroking your ego. Not cool.

I don't think we read that situation the same. To me, Romanced Morrigan is exactly like those undercover movies where the love interest finds out the other person is undercover and they always say something like "But falling in love with you wasn't a part of the plan!"

Morrigan thought she was in control. But she has human emotions, she's not Flemeth. And she ignores her feelings and rationalizes all day but in the end she realizes what it is. She realizes its a 'weakness' and she tries to end it. And even if you get her to not end it she still leaves you.

She wasn't ever supposed to love you. That was an accident.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Those subplots have become one of the best parts of Bioware games. They've come a long way from "I love you, I love you too, lets sex."

I'm going to set myself up for a burning here but..

I actually believe Bioware have gone backwards in terms of romance. I feel that they've objectified the companions available to us and reduced everything to a "Potential Love Interest". They've even begun to make companions conformable to the Player's wishes, plying them with gifts or introducing a rivalry system that makes it impossible to fall out of favour.

Honestly, the last romance that Bioware released into the world that *I* believe was of any decent quality was Valen Shadowbreath from Hordes of the Underdark, and the majority of his content was based on important, character building, neutral dialogue - Not branches of never-ending love-dovey dialogue hidden behind a romance flag.

This is entirely my opinion, as you would expect, but Bioware have removed consequence from their characters, made their personalities easily manipulated by the Player and forsaken deep, engaging conversations for the sake of shallow romantic dialogue.

Not trying to offend anyone, but my opinion is what it is.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Palipride47]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Roflbox wrote...

I was reading this interview about Project Eternity and Chris Avellone (who doesn't love this guy?) and this answer really well sounds amazing. Bioware has been using romance in their games forever and it doesn't always help the story frankly it hardly ever has not the way Alistir/Morrigan with the Warden did in Origins at least. Time for a change?

No.

I've suggested that romances be limited to two companions and integrated into the plot but Avellone's anti-romance talks continue to remind me of a 16-year-old boy desperately fearful of girly things and the cooties they bring.

I'm telling you. Someone really broke his heart once. And now he's so cynical about romance that he can't allow 'forever after' past his lips without smiling ironically.

Or everytime he hears the word "romance" in relation to a video game, it conjures up images of 13 years old girls making their computer dolls kiss. 
But man, I've read some of his interviews, he's cruler than Joss Whedon is to people in love

Modifié par Palipride47, 01 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[David Gaider]

1) Chris Avellone is awesome, and a friend of mine. And a far better writer than I will ever be.

2) Project Eternity will be similarly awesome, romances or no. I think they're fine with doing something different than BioWare does, and likely so are their backers (of which I am one). Thankfully there's room for different approaches in the realm of CRPG's.

3) This discussion has little to nothing to do with DA3. Please take it to Off Topic.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 novembre 2012 - 03:02 .