530 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

I'm less concerned over the drop in quality of the narrative of the ending, (of which I am gravely concerned), than I am to some of the forumites reaction to them. One who shall remain nameless has advocated concentration camp style "Reservations" to round up and synthesis anyone who wasn't synthesised.

Then their was the suggestion that control is just a stepping stone to bringing about synthesis "properly" by having Shepard be the one who devises a way to do it.

Then, most recently, I heard that synthesis is envitable, with the person behind that statement chalking up at least 4 obvious article violations contained the declaration of human rights.

Now this being a game, I'm not overly concerned I'm going to wake up with green eye's or a Reaper knocking on my car window asking for license and registration. But it is like having a bucket of cold water splashed in your face when you read a poster casually advancing a cause that contains a sick and twisted inhumanity, and then find they refuse to back down or temper their position during and after a debate.

Thank goodness trolls exist, or I would be really worried that some of these people are dead serious in views that echo some of of the worst crimes against humanity in our history.

But back to the ethics of ME.

The end choices all have something wrong with them. In the same way that choosing an ending in Deus Ex had a line of text at the end of every cutscene post "choice" that provided a slightly creepy philosophical take such as rule in hell, we'd have to create a god if he didn't exist, or just crashing the world and throwing it back into the stone age.

In the end. It's extinction or a neccessary evil. However, it is interesting to note that in the reject ending, we see two figures who discuss beating the Reapers with no mention of having to comprimise on their principles. This could have happened and they just don't mention it. But it is just as plausible to say that seeds buried in the previous cycle allowed the next cycle to win that seemingly impossible victory against the Reapers.

Modifié par Redbelle, 02 novembre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thisa game of hypathetical. The point is to put in the poison to see how you react.

This is a game meant for entertainment.  Not a psychology experiment.  If I wanted that, I'd play Werewolf

...Did someone not seE delivery in concept of ME1? Did you not see ME1's ads.


Many hard choices lie ahead, none of them easy.

What are you willing to Sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force?


Sorry but the issue of moral conflict in ME was the firstthing said about it. Now you're surprize it's there?

Everything has a breaking point.  There comes a point where it just gets to be too much and stops being fun.

ME3's endings not only crossed that line, it sprinted across and kept on going.

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

Okay, now you're just getting insulting.

Sorry if I don't find genocide or "evolutionary perfection" as entertaining as you do.  This game did make me think.  It made me think "What an awful ending for anyone who wanted to play a hero"

[SeptimusMagistos]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...


It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

are we more than our thoughts?

No.

[SpamBot2000]

It appears someone is confusing thinking with reveling in nihilism.

[Dr_Extrem]

ghost9191 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thisa game of hypathetical. The point is to put in the poison to see how you react.

This is a game meant for entertainment.  Not a psychology experiment.  If I wanted that, I'd play Werewolf

...Did someone not seE delivery in concept of ME1? Did you not see ME1's ads.


Many hard choices lie ahead, none of them easy.

What are you willing to Sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force?


Sorry but the issue of moral conflict in ME was the firstthing said about it. Now you're surprize it's there?

Everything has a breaking point.  There comes a point where it just gets to be too much and stops being fun.

ME3's endings not only crossed that line, it sprinted across and kept on going.

will agree witth you on that. there is a reason the endings are a main topic. and it is not because they were awesome.

which is why i say take the geth out., make me sleep better ( not that i am sleeping less but just saying ) and might make it better ,. at least somewhat

it kinda sucked geting the geth and quarians to work together and become allies , and be told only way that is possible is through synthesis , it even seems to imply that for control .

but all choices suck. worst i ever felt playing a game was when i got to ME3 ending. and it wasn't because it was moving

but just gotta choose the one that does the least dmg and run with it

or b*tch on the forums for the next 8 months in your off hours

aye .. the game is far too tear-j**king in the end. the last 1,5 hours its all about doom, saying goodbye and prepare for the worst. it seams, like every single flicker if hope vanished. 

sure .. people on a mission like that, prepare for the worst ... but it was too much for a lot of people to handle. and when i thought it could not get any worse, the endings came up.  

[dreman9999]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

[Ticonderoga117]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It appears someone is confusing thinking with reveling in nihilism.

The only people who are seeing the ending as nihilsm are the people who react to the endings negativly as unchoosable choices.

My victory is that the galexy survives and the people I care fori n the game survives. As long as they do are hope last.
I 'll take any burden or sin to make sure hope last.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Yes it does. Memories does equal personality and being.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thisa game of hypathetical. The point is to put in the poison to see how you react.

This is a game meant for entertainment.  Not a psychology experiment.  If I wanted that, I'd play Werewolf

...Did someone not seE delivery in concept of ME1? Did you not see ME1's ads.


Many hard choices lie ahead, none of them easy.

What are you willing to Sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force?


Sorry but the issue of moral conflict in ME was the firstthing said about it. Now you're surprize it's there?

Everything has a breaking point.  There comes a point where it just gets to be too much and stops being fun.

ME3's endings not only crossed that line, it sprinted across and kept on going.

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

Okay, now you're just getting insulting.

Sorry if I don't find genocide or "evolutionary perfection" as entertaining as you do.  This game did make me think.  It made me think "What an awful ending for anyone who wanted to play a hero"

I'm sorry you got the point of the game wrong then.

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

I'm less concerned over the drop in quality of the narrative of the ending, (of which I am gravely concerned), than I am to some of the forumites reaction to them. One who shall remain nameless has advocated concentration camp style "Reservations" to round up and synthesis anyone who wasn't synthesised.

Then their was the suggestion that control is just a stepping stone to bringing about synthesis "properly" by having Shepard be the one who devises a way to do it.

Then, most recently, I heard that synthesis is envitable, with the person behind that statement chalking up at least 4 obvious article violations contained the declaration of human rights.

Now this being a game, I'm not overly concerned I'm going to wake up with green eye's or a Reaper knocking on my car window asking for license and registration. But it is like having a bucket of cold water splashed in your face when you read a poster casually advancing a cause that contains a sick and twisted inhumanity, and then find they refuse to back down or temper their position during and after a debate.

Thank goodness trolls exist, or I would be really worried that some of these people are dead serious in views that echo some of of the worst crimes against humanity in our history.

But back to the ethics of ME.

The end choices all have something wrong with them. In the same way that choosing an ending in Deus Ex had a line of text at the end of every cutscene post "choice" that provided a slightly creepy philosophical take such as rule in hell, we'd have to create a god if he didn't exist, or just crashing the world and throwing it back into the stone age.

In the end. It's extinction or a neccessary evil. However, it is interesting to note that in the reject ending, we see two figures who discuss beating the Reapers with no mention of having to comprimise on their principles. This could have happened and they just don't mention it. But it is just as plausible to say that seeds buried in the previous cycle allowed the next cycle to win that seemingly impossible victory against the Reapers.

It's a game of hypathetical. It's about asking you questions that cause moral conflict to see how you react.

[Redbelle]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

is becoming an overmind who will guide the living, where it thinks it is the best, better?
is it really worth trying to controll the reapers? (it could go wrong and shepard sacrificed him/herself for nothing). 
is it better to rewrite and uniform all life? (are they ready for it)
is it ethical to bypass natural evolution?

shepard does not count on surviving the destroy ending. it just happens, if your ems is high enough.

[dreman9999]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

is becoming an overmind who will guide the living, where it thinks it is the best, better?
is it really worth trying to controll the reapers? (it could go wrong and shepard sacrificed him/herself for nothing). 
is it better to rewrite and uniform all life? (are they ready for it)
is it ethical to bypass natural evolution?

shepard does not count on surviving the destroy ending. it just happens, if your ems is high enough.

1.Being that overmind, does that mean I have to impose my ruling?

2. The reapers are tools with no will. What ever moral issue there is bases with  Shepard.

3-4. Then don't pick synthesis.

5. Surviving in Destory is not an issue with me.

Modifié par dreman9999, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Dr_Extrem]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thisa game of hypathetical. The point is to put in the poison to see how you react.

This is a game meant for entertainment.  Not a psychology experiment.  If I wanted that, I'd play Werewolf

...Did someone not seE delivery in concept of ME1? Did you not see ME1's ads.


Many hard choices lie ahead, none of them easy.

What are you willing to Sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force?


Sorry but the issue of moral conflict in ME was the firstthing said about it. Now you're surprize it's there?

Everything has a breaking point.  There comes a point where it just gets to be too much and stops being fun.

ME3's endings not only crossed that line, it sprinted across and kept on going.

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

Okay, now you're just getting insulting.

Sorry if I don't find genocide or "evolutionary perfection" as entertaining as you do.  This game did make me think.  It made me think "What an awful ending for anyone who wanted to play a hero"

 aye .. i had high hopes for me3 ... that i could save the galaxy because i am the smarta** marine commander who always has got an ace up his/her sleave - just like old times.

[DirtySHISN0]

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Only in a save file sense.

After all the damage the original endings have done im completely detached from the story post-priority; earth forever.

When you look at it;

You can destroy - sacrificing/murdering EDI and the Geth (who you may have really enjoyed)completing an age old organic tradition of destroying what you do not understand.

You can control - becoming the reapers 2.0 and imposing your own rule

You can synthesise - raping all life in the galaxy, but allowing coexistence.

You can refuse - waste all of your game time by thinking principles absolve responsiblity.

Or you can go back to the journal, choose the load option and restart priority earth. Because honestly why the **** would you choose refuse.



Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them.
                          the only options                             all have


edit; I might also point out that it is possible the catalyst is a total liar and that shepard (the person providing our point of view) gets killed in all endings before we see what happens. How can we guarrantee that anything after the initial moment of choice is accurate?

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

No, Shepard's body dies and his mind is uploaded to become an AI.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Obviously it doesn't, as some people prefer the "refuse" option, and others would simply rather stop before reaching the ending or (like me) not play the game at all.

Sure the endings don't kill the galaxy, but it remakes the galaxy in a way that I find to simply not be worth inhabiting anymore.  These "lesser evils" are often the goals of other games' villains

And yes, losing the character you spent five years building and customizing to your tastes (unavoidably, I might add) is a strong emotional blow, not to be trivialized.

Such sacrifices might be necessary if teh galaxy ever really is invaded by space Cthulhu.  But it should never be celebrated in a game.  Such necessity would be nothing less than a tragedy.

[ghost9191]

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

It appears someone is confusing thinking with reveling in nihilism.

The only people who are seeing the ending as nihilsm are the people who react to the endings negativly as unchoosable choices.

My victory is that the galexy survives and the people I care fori n the game survives. As long as they do are hope last.
I 'll take any burden or sin to make sure hope last.

which is why i shoot the tube. i can dislike the choices, but the alternative is everyone dies. sometimes you have to make the hard decisions .

but i do not make it without remorse

[Dr_Extrem]

dreman9999 wrote...

2. The reapers are tools with no will. What ever moral issue there is bases with  Shepard.

no .. .the reapers are p**s poor creatures who got terrified, harvested like cattle, liquified and pumped into an ugly machine. the reapers are bound to the catalyst - but they have concoiusness. and i bet, that they are suffering. they have to do the same atrocities, that were done to them as well.

poor creatures.

[Redbelle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Yes it does. Memories does equal personality and being.

Really? I can video capture moving images and store them. Does that make those memories?

The reason I ask is due to the story of the rational dentist. Goes like this:

A man sits in a dentist chair and the dentist looms over with mask.

"Hmmm", says the dentist. "You require a new filling. Now the question is should I use anasthetic before I begin to drill the tooth".

The mans eye's went wide but he could not say anything as the dentist had his mirror in his mouth. The dentist however noticed the mans agitation.

"Interesting", he said. "You seem to be exibiting signs of distress at the notion of not having anasthetic. But, of course, without any way to prove if this is a genuine reaction from a thinking living creature like myself I must remain open to the possibility that you are merely mimicking a reaction seen in others in scenario's similar to this one."

"Since I cannot know if you are actually thinking, or that you exist and live in the same way that I know I exist and live being privy to stream of recognition that I am a thinking and living person, I must administer anasthetic on the chance that you are like me. But I cannot know if you are like me. So this may just be a waste of Anasthetic".



Simply put, I, or you, could be living in something a Truman show reality where some things have to be taken on faith. Memories cannot simply be the be all and end of who and what we are as individuals who loose their memories are still able to function.

Modifié par Redbelle, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[dreman9999]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Only in a save file sense.

After all the damage the original endings have done im completely detached from the story post-priority; earth forever.

When you look at it;

You can destroy - sacrificing/murdering EDI and the Geth (who you may have really enjoyed)completing an age old organic tradition of destroying what you do not understand.

You can control - becoming the reapers 2.0 and imposing your own rule

You can synthesise - raping all life in the galaxy, but allowing coexistence.

You can refuse - waste all of your game time by thinking principles absolve responsiblity.

Or you can go back to the journal, choose the load option and restart priority earth. Because honestly why the **** would you choose refuse.



Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them.

1.Theissue withthe old ending effecting the new ending is up to the player.
2.It not an issue of destory what you don't understand. It's an issue of saving who you can by sacrificing the few.

3.In control, where does it say you have to impose your ruling?

4. Just don't pick synthesis.

5.Some thing you'll have to live with.

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

[ghost9191]

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

No, Shepard's body dies and his mind is uploaded to become an AI.

sh*t this is still going on .

i guess i will just say it... Dreman you are indoctrinated

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Yes it does. Memories does equal personality and being.

Really? I can video capture moving images and store them. Does that make those memories?

The reason I ask is due to the story of the rational dentist. Goes like this:

A man sits in a dentist chair and the dentist looms over with mask.

"Hmmm", says the dentist. "You require a new filling. Now the question is should I use anasthetic before I begin to drill the tooth".

The mans eye's went wide but he could not say anything as the dentist had his mirror in his mouth. The dentist however noticed the mans agitation.

"Interesting", he said. "You seem to be exibiting signs of distress at the notion of not having anasthetic. But, of course, without any way to prove if this is a genuine reaction from a thinking living creature like myself I must remain open to the possibility that you are merely mimicking a reaction seen in others in scenario's similar to this one."

"Since I cannot know if you are actually thinking, or that you exist and live in the same way that I know I exist and live being privy to stream of recognition that I am a thinking and living person, I must administer anasthetic on the chance that you are like me. But I cannot know if you are like me. So this may just be a waste of Anasthetic".

1. "Really? I can video capture moving images and store them. Does that make those memories?"
Yes, becaus eyou can remeber recording them.

2.It's that also a con to you arguement to say that the Shepard AI is not Shepard?

An arguement about being non conclusive is a doulbe edge sword.