530 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

ghost9191 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

No, Shepard's body dies and his mind is uploaded to become an AI.

sh*t this is still going on .

i guess i will just say it... Dreman you are indoctrinated

How? What proof says the AI's not?

[Redbelle]

ghost9191 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

No, Shepard's body dies and his mind is uploaded to become an AI.

sh*t this is still going on .

i guess i will just say it... Dreman you are indoctrinated

Dreman, Shep is not a computer. So could you explain how Shep's brain get's sucked into the Reaper hive mind in 3 sentences or less that doesn't involve the use of the phrase "Space magic".

*edit* And on an interesting note, when computers do transfer files from one disc space to another, they do it by copying the original, then putting that copy in the desired location, then deleting the original. If you use the cut function on a computer, likewise, you are not moving the original, the computer copies the information, making the process only seem to be a direct file transfer.

Modifié par Redbelle, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Obviously it doesn't, as some people prefer the "refuse" option, and others would simply rather stop before reaching the ending or (like me) not play the game at all.

Sure the endings don't kill the galaxy, but it remakes the galaxy in a way that I find to simply not be worth inhabiting anymore.  These "lesser evils" are often the goals of other games' villains

And yes, losing the character you spent five years building and customizing to your tastes (unavoidably, I might add) is a strong emotional blow, not to be trivialized.

Such sacrifices might be necessary if teh galaxy ever really is invaded by space Cthulhu.  But it should never be celebrated in a game.  Such necessity would be nothing less than a tragedy.

So the WW2 vets that celebrated winning the war after dropping bombs on japanese civilians are war criminals?

Added,if that is your choice to do then that is your choice. But you'll never understand the messagein hand if you just blindly refuse toapply youself to it.

[ghost9191]

can he replace the words space magic with this

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It has his memories and his mind. Ergo, it's him. Just because one of two Shepards died doesn't stop the other from being Shepard.

But it's not him. It's his memories, but memories =/= personality or being.

Plus, the wording of ReaperShep makes it quite clear that they are different.

Shep dies and is not downloaded as the catalyst. Rather, Shep dies and elements of Shep psyche are copied and used to repurpose the Reaper's collective conciousness. That's my take. It's essentially a cloning process. If Shep had not been incinerated there would be human Shep and Shreaper Shep running around the galaxy arguing over who owns the apartment.

No, Shepard's body dies and his mind is uploaded to become an AI.

sh*t this is still going on .

i guess i will just say it... Dreman you are indoctrinated

Dreman, Shep is not a computer. So could you explain how Shep's brain get's sucked into the Reaper hive mind in 3 sentences or less that doesn't involve the use of the phrase "Space magic".

*edit* And on an interesting note, when computers do transfer files from one disc space to another, they do it by copying the original, then putting that copy in the desired location, then deleting the original. If you use the cut function on a computer, likewise, you are not moving the original, the computer copies the information, making the process only seem to be a direct file transfer.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

And


Mixed with.....

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

Well exactly. That's why some of us are a little upset with BioWare. We'd rather play the game(s) we paid for and enjoyed, until Hudson and Walters sneaked this nihilist twist in behind the real writers' backs. 

Understand that this is not about somehow being less able to be a tough guy and make tough guy decisions than those who do with pleasure. It's about what kind of story we wish to be part of. Mass Effect is supposed to be a story after all, not an ordeal to be endured. Yeah, we could push the win button easily enough. But why let some hack's demolition job bring us down to wallowing in a cosmic pointlessness? That's not the Mass Effect we signed up for. That story was about ideals. 

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

And


Mixed with.....

Except listen to the paragon version. The game quite blatantly tells you "These are not the same being. One died, the other was created off that one but is NOT that one. Seperate. Different.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

So the WW2 vets that celebrated winning the war after dropping bombs on japanese civilians are war criminals?

Nice.  Arou you going to ask me when I stopped beating my wife next?

Added,if that is your choice to do then that is your choice. But you'll never understand the messagein hand if you just blindly refuse toapply youself to it.

At this point I don't think I want to understand the message.  I play games to celebrate that which is best in me, not that which is most base. 

Modifié par iakus, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:41 .

[DirtySHISN0]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Theissue withthe old ending effecting the new ending is up to the player.
partly agreed - but with more answers came more problems

2.It not an issue of destory what you don't understand. It's an issue of saving who you can by sacrificing the few.
I understand the story just fine, just because ruthless calculus is available doesn't make it moral. You should at least attempt to save everybody.

3.In control, where does it say you have to impose your ruling?
Depends on your interpretation of the reapers convincing shepard to let them steal her essence.

4.just dont pick synthesis
I always choose it for save file purposes.

5.Some thing you'll have to live with.
or die with.

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.


ok for the last one, i'll admit im not sure. You seem to have spiked the obvious answer, people generally don't continue with activities they dislike or disagree with, but in this case i would turn off the game as a form of protest or resistance against moral catagorisation. 

Replied in amended form to stop chains/trains.

edit; In essence my view is that I'm protesting what bioware assumes/demands our moral scope should be.
It shouldn't be a "choose the best wrong answer".

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:48 .

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

Well exactly. That's why some of us are a little upset with BioWare. We'd rather play the game(s) we paid for and enjoyed, until Hudson and Walters sneaked this nihilist twist in behind the real writers' backs. 

Understand that this is not about somehow being less able to be a tough guy and make tough guy decisions than those who do with pleasure. It's about what kind of story we wish to be part of. Mass Effect is supposed to be a story after all, not an ordeal to be endured. Yeah, we could push the win button easily enough. But why let some hack's demolition job bring us down to wallowing in a cosmic pointlessness? That's not the Mass Effect we signed up for. That story was about ideals. 

Oh right, because they are just telling at the end of  ME3 that it's is about many hard choices to make and none of them being easy, and that it's not  asking you what you're willing to sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force at the last second of the game..
I wonder were they got that idea?

[Redbelle]

Virtual Aliens? Bit light on the explanation on how they do it. The mechanics could be similar to copying files as previously described. Though in fairness, due to a lack of data we cannot rule out the possibility that their minds go back and forth like tennis balls.

1st And: Legion describes the moving of minds. But being software based, this again could merely be an illusion of what is occuring.

Mixed with: The geth's minds are linked with signals, that much is made abundantly clear. But they also value those minds. I was toying with the idea of streaming to explain how they so it. But should they go through a tunnel and loose signal the stream would be brokan and the mind lost, or split in two.

Come to think of it. Has a geth ever entered a tunnel?

Also the geth examples, while the VR Shep is relevant, also highlights the problem of where is Sheps mind. It may be seeing the VR world, but to if a rogue Geth were to pull a gun and kill Shep in the booth. Chances are she would die in VR too as her brain is the source of the electrical impulses that define her thoughts and actions.

[dreman9999]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So the WW2 vets that celebrated winning the war after dropping bombs on japanese civilians are war criminals?

Why do you keep bringing this up? I was joking when I said yes earlier.

They are not war criminals, humans are primitive creatures and they do what is necessary for themselves.
Perhaps if humans were more intelligent we would not celebrate after such loss of life.

But alas no one can blame primitive creatures for acting on basic function.

Thaen you have you're reason to choose an option.

[ghost9191]

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

Virtual Aliens? Bit light on the explanation on how they do it. The mechanics could be similar to copying files as previously described. Though in fairness, due to a lack of data we cannot rule out the possibility that their minds go back and forth like tennis balls.

1st And: Legion describes the moving of minds. But being software based, this again could merely be an illusion of what is occuring.

Mixed with: The geth's minds are linked with signals, that much is made abundantly clear. But they also value those minds. I was toying with the idea of streaming to explain how they so it. But should they go through a tunnel and loose signal the stream would be brokan and the mind lost, or split in two.

Come to think of it. Has a geth ever entered a tunnel?

Also the geth examples, while the VR Shep is relevant, also highlights the problem of where is Sheps mind. It may be seeing the VR world, but to if a rogue Geth were to pull a gun and kill Shep in the booth. Chances are she would die in VR too as her brain is the source of the electrical impulses that define her thoughts and actions.

1. The fact that in the articles it shows the minds are going back and forth counter that argument that they are not.

2.The conversation is a confermation on what was said during the last mission in ME2 that the reapers are uploaded organic minds into a reaper body. Legion is just telling you that he suspected before.

3.That is just a partly upload. Not a full one. It just showing it can be done. Shepard mind did go into the concensus but it also stayed partly ground in his/her body.

On that point, yes  MEU has mind transfers.

[dreman9999]

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

[Nerevar-as]

dreman9999 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

Well exactly. That's why some of us are a little upset with BioWare. We'd rather play the game(s) we paid for and enjoyed, until Hudson and Walters sneaked this nihilist twist in behind the real writers' backs. 

Understand that this is not about somehow being less able to be a tough guy and make tough guy decisions than those who do with pleasure. It's about what kind of story we wish to be part of. Mass Effect is supposed to be a story after all, not an ordeal to be endured. Yeah, we could push the win button easily enough. But why let some hack's demolition job bring us down to wallowing in a cosmic pointlessness? That's not the Mass Effect we signed up for. That story was about ideals. 

Oh right, because they are just telling at the end of  ME3 that it's is about many hard choices to make and none of them being easy, and that it's not  asking you what you're willing to sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force at the last second of the game..
I wonder were they got that idea?

While you're at it, what about "Take Earth Back!" WTF dude, where's my Earth back?! How come I can't take it?

And "hard choices" don't automatically translate into "no decency left in the universe". The Virmire choice was way harder in a way than the ABC. It really gave me pause. The ABC has two choices I could reject in about a second and a third one that just makes ME a pointless drag into an ignoble end. Hell, I gave much more serious consideration to giving Conrad my autograph than the damn ABC. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 02 novembre 2012 - 11:55 .

[DirtySHISN0]

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Now shut up and choose so we can steal your essence already.


OMG s/hes actually doing it.

How many years of effort when all we had to do was lure her/him onto  a private chamber of the citadel.

"coax him/her out with human threats"  **** you harbinger you dope. If you want some thing done do it yourself.


Cat

[Redbelle]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Obviously it doesn't, as some people prefer the "refuse" option, and others would simply rather stop before reaching the ending or (like me) not play the game at all.

Sure the endings don't kill the galaxy, but it remakes the galaxy in a way that I find to simply not be worth inhabiting anymore.  These "lesser evils" are often the goals of other games' villains

And yes, losing the character you spent five years building and customizing to your tastes (unavoidably, I might add) is a strong emotional blow, not to be trivialized.

Such sacrifices might be necessary if teh galaxy ever really is invaded by space Cthulhu.  But it should never be celebrated in a game.  Such necessity would be nothing less than a tragedy.

So the WW2 vets that celebrated winning the war after dropping bombs on japanese civilians are war criminals?

Added,if that is your choice to do then that is your choice. But you'll never understand the messagein hand if you just blindly refuse toapply youself to it.

On the matter of droping the bomb. It's important to apply context.

Had the world been in a state of peace time and America just dropped it, yes, I would chalk up the people behind the decision and exectution of the act of dropping the bomb as war criminals.

However, the two countries were in a state of war that had escalated before America joined in to attacking civilian populations. This is, of course, no justification, just a setting of the scene that had and was occuring during at the time.

On top of that, they had a weapon which had never been deployed in actual combat. They certainly had an idea of what would happen. But the scale of devastation was beyond belief.

And the final deciding factor? In a time of war you have to decide, in the situation described above, which civilian population is more important. Let's break this down to something easier to unerstand. Which soldier is more important. Their's or yours? If you pick theirs then your doing the enemies job for them. If you pick yours then your commiting to end human lives by sending that soldier out.

America dropped the bomb because it's own citizenship was dying. The elected representative's had a duty of care to the electorate who had voted them in to serve and protect the American people. Not the Japanese people. The situation of open war called for a plan to end the war and the bomb was choosen. And it worked as Japan soon surrendered afterwards.

I wish it hadn't happened in our history. but it did. And it's a heritage we should be mindful of. Not using it as a club to batter each other's arguments with. I've a better word for the event than a war crime in that respect.

A tragedy.

[dreman9999]

@DirtySHISN0 

1. The issue of more prolbems is also up to the player.
2.Then don't pick destroy.
3.Theending makes it obvious thatthe Shepard AI is not controled by anyone.
5.Exactly.
6, And that's your choice. Thatdoes not mean the ending is bad. Just thatyou don't like it.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...

@DirtySHISN0 

1. The issue of more prolbems is also up to the player.
2.Then don't pick destroy.
3.Theending makes it obvious thatthe Shepard AI is not controled by anyone.
5.Exactly.
6, And that's your choice. Thatdoes not mean the ending is bad. Just thatyou don't like it.

It is objectively bad for going against proper storytelling techniques.

Not to mention the hobbling of Shepard being able to tell the Catalyst he is down right wrong and get him to shut down.

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sorry but it's not bad because the question is extreme. Sorry but this is not a game you play brain dead. This game is notorious for geting the player to think.

There isn't anything to think about. None of the endings are beneficial, not one is worth choosing. Its all about personal preference of lesser evils.

The fact that everyone you care about lives and the galexy lives makes it worth choosing. That means the one to lose the most is you/your Shepard.
Is your ego and moarlity woth that much? I say it's too cheap a price.

Obviously it doesn't, as some people prefer the "refuse" option, and others would simply rather stop before reaching the ending or (like me) not play the game at all.

Sure the endings don't kill the galaxy, but it remakes the galaxy in a way that I find to simply not be worth inhabiting anymore.  These "lesser evils" are often the goals of other games' villains

And yes, losing the character you spent five years building and customizing to your tastes (unavoidably, I might add) is a strong emotional blow, not to be trivialized.

Such sacrifices might be necessary if teh galaxy ever really is invaded by space Cthulhu.  But it should never be celebrated in a game.  Such necessity would be nothing less than a tragedy.

So the WW2 vets that celebrated winning the war after dropping bombs on japanese civilians are war criminals?

Added,if that is your choice to do then that is your choice. But you'll never understand the messagein hand if you just blindly refuse toapply youself to it.

On the matter of droping the bomb. It's important to apply context.

Had the world been in a state of peace time and America just dropped it, yes, I would chalk up the people behind the decision and exectution of the act of dropping the bomb as war criminals.

However, the two countries were in a state of war that had escalated before America joined in to attacking civilian populations. This is, of course, no justification, just a setting of the scene that had and was occuring during at the time.

On top of that, they had a weapon which had never been deployed in actual combat. They certainly had an idea of what would happen. But the scale of devastation was beyond belief.

And the final deciding factor? In a time of war you have to decide, in the situation described above, which civilian population is more important. Let's break this down to something easier to unerstand. Which soldier is more important. Their's or yours? If you pick theirs then your doing the enemies job for them. If you pick yours then your commiting to end human lives by sending that soldier out.

America dropped the bomb because it's own citizenship was dying. The elected representative's had a duty of care to the electorate who had voted them in to serve and protect the American people. Not the Japanese people. The situation of open war called for a plan to end the war and the bomb was choosen. And it worked as Japan soon surrendered afterwards.

I wish it hadn't happened in our history. but it did. And it's a heritage we should be mindful of. Not using it as a club to batter each other's arguments with. I've a better word for the event than a war crime in that respect.

A tragedy.

And that does not apply to this war?

On the short turn, that choice was celebrated. In the long turn it was seen in horrior. Is that not that case that happen and could happen in the ME3 endings?

Ofcousre the races of now would look to see the use of the crucible in the form of joy but that does not mean it would be a case inthe future.

In Ender's game that was  the same case

[DirtySHISN0]

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

Well exactly. That's why some of us are a little upset with BioWare. We'd rather play the game(s) we paid for and enjoyed, until Hudson and Walters sneaked this nihilist twist in behind the real writers' backs. 

Understand that this is not about somehow being less able to be a tough guy and make tough guy decisions than those who do with pleasure. It's about what kind of story we wish to be part of. Mass Effect is supposed to be a story after all, not an ordeal to be endured. Yeah, we could push the win button easily enough. But why let some hack's demolition job bring us down to wallowing in a cosmic pointlessness? That's not the Mass Effect we signed up for. That story was about ideals. 

Oh right, because they are just telling at the end of  ME3 that it's is about many hard choices to make and none of them being easy, and that it's not  asking you what you're willing to sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force at the last second of the game..
I wonder were they got that idea?

I'd just like to jump in here.

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

On what basis was she not?

Just to be clear, I fully acknowledge that the AI Shepard isn't the original Shepard. But if you make an exact copy of Shepard then that copy is still Shepard.