530 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

I'd just like to jump in here.

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically clean ending.

If you did the "correct" things.

Like finally getting the Quarians and Geth to chill. Prove that dirtbag wrong and voila!

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@DirtySHISN0 

1. The issue of more prolbems is also up to the player.
2.Then don't pick destroy.
3.Theending makes it obvious thatthe Shepard AI is not controled by anyone.
5.Exactly.
6, And that's your choice. Thatdoes not mean the ending is bad. Just thatyou don't like it.

It is objectively bad for going against proper storytelling techniques.

Not to mention the hobbling of Shepard being able to tell the Catalyst he is down right wrong and get him to shut down.

1.The premise of the story is the question of what you're willing to do to stop an unstoppable force. the ending does not go ageinst that concept.
2.The catalyst is a shackled AI, telling it to stop is like trying to tell an out of control car to stop.

[Redbelle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Virtual Aliens? Bit light on the explanation on how they do it. The mechanics could be similar to copying files as previously described. Though in fairness, due to a lack of data we cannot rule out the possibility that their minds go back and forth like tennis balls.

1st And: Legion describes the moving of minds. But being software based, this again could merely be an illusion of what is occuring.

Mixed with: The geth's minds are linked with signals, that much is made abundantly clear. But they also value those minds. I was toying with the idea of streaming to explain how they so it. But should they go through a tunnel and loose signal the stream would be brokan and the mind lost, or split in two.

Come to think of it. Has a geth ever entered a tunnel?

Also the geth examples, while the VR Shep is relevant, also highlights the problem of where is Sheps mind. It may be seeing the VR world, but to if a rogue Geth were to pull a gun and kill Shep in the booth. Chances are she would die in VR too as her brain is the source of the electrical impulses that define her thoughts and actions.

1. The fact that in the articles it shows the minds are going back and forth counter that argument that they are not.

2.The conversation is a confermation on what was said during the last mission in ME2 that the reapers are uploaded organic minds into a reaper body. Legion is just telling you that he suspected before.

3.That is just a partly upload. Not a full one. It just showing it can be done. Shepard mind did go into the concensus but it also stayed partly ground in his/her body.

On that point, yes  MEU has mind transfers.

Point 1:

Ok, how fast are you travelling right now? If you say 0mph, your right and wrong. Your actually travelling west at a speed of over 300mph. That's the direction the world turns. and yes, that answer also is right and wrong.

Now you might wonder how you can be stationary and moving at the same time. The answer is, it depends on the absolute position you choose to view the event.

Taking the idea that the point of observation can influence the result we now need to apply this to the observation of the virtual aliens. The question we need to ask is, where was the absolute position when the observation was made? If it was one of the actual aliens then it would support the idea that they can play tennis with their minds.

If it was an outside observer. Then we can only say that he observed an effect that seemed like minds were going back and forth.

Modifié par Redbelle, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

6."Just because all of the options they have given have negatives attached doesnt mean i must choose one of them."

Yes it does mean you have to choose. That or just not playing.

Well exactly. That's why some of us are a little upset with BioWare. We'd rather play the game(s) we paid for and enjoyed, until Hudson and Walters sneaked this nihilist twist in behind the real writers' backs. 

Understand that this is not about somehow being less able to be a tough guy and make tough guy decisions than those who do with pleasure. It's about what kind of story we wish to be part of. Mass Effect is supposed to be a story after all, not an ordeal to be endured. Yeah, we could push the win button easily enough. But why let some hack's demolition job bring us down to wallowing in a cosmic pointlessness? That's not the Mass Effect we signed up for. That story was about ideals. 

Oh right, because they are just telling at the end of  ME3 that it's is about many hard choices to make and none of them being easy, and that it's not  asking you what you're willing to sacrifice to stop an unstoppable force at the last second of the game..
I wonder were they got that idea?

While you're at it, what about "Take Earth Back!" WTF dude, where's my Earth back?! How come I can't take it?

And "hard choices" don't automatically translate into "no decency left in the universe". The Virmire choice was way harder in a way than the ABC. It really gave me pause. The ABC has two choices I could reject in about a second and a third one that just makes ME a pointless drag into an ignoble end. Hell, I gave much more serious consideration to giving Conrad my autograph than the damn ABC. 

"hard choices" don't automatically translate into "no decency left in the universe" but a choice that are only indecent are hard choices. It still part ofthe theme, like it or not.

The question being extreme does not make it bad.

[dreman9999]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...



I'd just like to jump in here.

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

Your kidding?

Giving you ethically conflicting choice then giving a moral one contradict the very concept of hard choices. it basicly giving you an easy way out.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.The premise of the story is the question of what you're willing to do to stop an unstoppable force. the ending does not go ageinst that concept.
2.The catalyst is a shackled AI, telling it to stop is like trying to tell an out of control car to stop.

1. Wrong. The premise is to stop the Reapers. Now, putting tough choices is fine and all, but then those choices go "Yeah, let's ignore natural progression and put in this conflict for the hell of it" you are doing it wrong.

2. He wanted a  new plan. Here's a new plan: Shut Down.

[dreman9999]

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

More like a being with differt experiances with you as the base it's persona.

[Nerevar-as]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

On what basis was she not?

Just to be clear, I fully acknowledge that the AI Shepard isn't the original Shepard. But if you make an exact copy of Shepard then that copy is still Shepard.

For starters, they both were alive at the same time for a while. For that matter, the game could easily have allowed Shepard to survive the copy process (no idea why copying one´s mind requires reducing your flesh to ashes), and I don´t want to think about "organic energy" or keep walking towards an exploding tube.<_<

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1.The premise of the story is the question of what you're willing to do to stop an unstoppable force. the ending does not go ageinst that concept.
2.The catalyst is a shackled AI, telling it to stop is like trying to tell an out of control car to stop.

1. Wrong. The premise is to stop the Reapers. Now, putting tough choices is fine and all, but then those choices go "Yeah, let's ignore natural progression and put in this conflict for the hell of it" you are doing it wrong.

2. He wanted a  new plan. Here's a new plan: Shut Down.

1.The reaper as said unstoppable force. So when is theme is what you're willing to do  and sacrific to stop an unstoppable force...That refering to the reapers...And you do sacrific from ME1 to stop them.

2. That wouldbe ageints it's programming. You can't tell an out of control car to stop.

[Ticonderoga117]

Nerevar-as wrote...

For starters, they both were alive at the same time for a while. For that matter, the game could easily have allowed Shepard to survive the copy process (no idea why copying one´s mind requires reducing your flesh to ashes), and I don´t want to think about "organic energy" or keep walking towards an exploding tube.<_<

Because now the hero MUST die. This game is meant to be GRITTY and REALISTIC nad be very EMOTIONAL so that you FEEL the depression of war.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
1.The reaper as said unstoppable force. So when is theme is what you're willing to do  and sacrific to stop an unstoppable force...That refering to the reapers...And you do sacrific from ME1 to stop them.

2. That wouldbe ageints it's programming. You can't tell an out of control car to stop.

1. No they aren't. They've had to rely on surprise and guile for every single cycle. Not unstoppable.

2. He asked for a solution! I told him to shut down. Ta-da.

[Nerevar-as]

dreman9999 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

More like a being with differt experiances with you as the base it's persona.

It´s still another being. Not the Shepard we´ve been following, although I consider Catalyst Shepard a living being in its own right. I didn´t choose Control because it felt like Gandalf taking the One Ring.

[dreman9999]

Redbelle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Virtual Aliens? Bit light on the explanation on how they do it. The mechanics could be similar to copying files as previously described. Though in fairness, due to a lack of data we cannot rule out the possibility that their minds go back and forth like tennis balls.

1st And: Legion describes the moving of minds. But being software based, this again could merely be an illusion of what is occuring.

Mixed with: The geth's minds are linked with signals, that much is made abundantly clear. But they also value those minds. I was toying with the idea of streaming to explain how they so it. But should they go through a tunnel and loose signal the stream would be brokan and the mind lost, or split in two.

Come to think of it. Has a geth ever entered a tunnel?

Also the geth examples, while the VR Shep is relevant, also highlights the problem of where is Sheps mind. It may be seeing the VR world, but to if a rogue Geth were to pull a gun and kill Shep in the booth. Chances are she would die in VR too as her brain is the source of the electrical impulses that define her thoughts and actions.

1. The fact that in the articles it shows the minds are going back and forth counter that argument that they are not.

2.The conversation is a confermation on what was said during the last mission in ME2 that the reapers are uploaded organic minds into a reaper body. Legion is just telling you that he suspected before.

3.That is just a partly upload. Not a full one. It just showing it can be done. Shepard mind did go into the concensus but it also stayed partly ground in his/her body.

On that point, yes  MEU has mind transfers.

Point 1:

Ok, how fast are you travelling right now? If you say 0mph, your right and wrong. Your actually travelling west at a speed of over 300mph. That's the direction the world turns. and yes, that answer also is right and wrong.

Now you might wonder how you can be stationary and moving at the same time. The answer is, it depends on the absolute position you choose to view the event.

Taking the idea that the point of observation can influence the result we now need to apply this to the observation of the virtual aliens. The question we need to ask is, where was the absolute position when the observation was made? If it was one of the actual aliens then it would support the idea that they can play tennis with their minds.

If it was an outside observer. Then we can only say that he observed an effect that seemed like minds were going back and forth.

1. I know that concept you refering to.
2. The are getting the direct comfermation of the people who did the transfer. The vurtual alien it self and the person who entered theirpersonal world.

The very people who did the exchange comfermed it.

[Redbelle]

dreman9999 wrote...

And that does not apply to this war?

On the short turn, that choice was celebrated. In the long turn it was seen in horrior. Is that not that case that happen and could happen in the ME3 endings?

Ofcousre the races of now would look to see the use of the crucible in the form of joy but that does not mean it would be a case inthe future.

In Ender's game that was  the same case

the difference is that ME was a work of fiction and the 2 writers walked into a gaming medium for the purpose of entertainment and twisted it around to deliver a gut punch that was neither mentioned or foreshadowed.

Now you could argue that it was artistic integrity. But if the ending had been deleivered as present on Christmas. I'd ask for the reciept so I could return it. Gaming follows it's own logic. It can thrill, aggrevate, dissapoint. But ultimately it has to deliver on the theme of the core narrative.

All throughout ME the narrative has been to stop the Reapers. A pretty loose fitting term but let's see what we've got to do that with.

An Alliance soldier in a military who frequently meets ppl with guns and get's up to stuff other deem impossible. Shep's never needed space magic before to pull off a win.

This is the ME universe at work and Shep's prevogative? Military solutions that result in someone getting shot.

To change that so suddenly was a brave effort. MGS3 had a walking the river scene where you were attacked by the ghosts of all the ppl you had killed. Sadly the scope of the writers vision for the ending of ME3 was a little narrow than that gameplay mechanic.

Modifié par Redbelle, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:17 .

[Nerevar-as]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

For starters, they both were alive at the same time for a while. For that matter, the game could easily have allowed Shepard to survive the copy process (no idea why copying one´s mind requires reducing your flesh to ashes), and I don´t want to think about "organic energy" or keep walking towards an exploding tube.<_<

Because now the hero MUST die. This game is meant to be GRITTY and REALISTIC nad be very EMOTIONAL so that you FEEL the depression of war.

True Art Is Angsty!!

Sigh

I felt worse listenging to the Mindoir girl in ME1, than with the dreamkid and all the rest in ME3.

[dreman9999]

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

More like a being with differt experiances with you as the base it's persona.

It´s still another being. Not the Shepard we´ve been following, although I consider Catalyst Shepard a living being in its own right. I didn´t choose Control because it felt like Gandalf taking the One Ring.

Inheritly is. It die not get a new persona.

Also, you missing that fact here that the one ring had a will of it's own and the reaper do not. You commad them, not ithem commanding you

[DirtySHISN0]

dreman9999 wrote...

Your kidding?

Giving you ethically conflicting choice then giving a moral one contradict the very concept of hard choices. it basicly giving you an easy way out.

No, the trade off would be the situation remains unresolved. AKA since we cannot agree on a moral compromise situation we will continue to fight until only one faction remains.

cutscene glorious space battle

basically dying trying instead of making do with a bad hand of cards or giving up at the end.


This way any allies i have aquired can willing sacrifice themselves (should they feel i have earned it)  instead of me volunteering them.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[AlanC9]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

You've got Refuse.

[dreman9999]

@Redbelle 

The issue of conflict over choice son hand was there day one and advertized from day one. It is not bad because it goes to the extreme.

Also control and destoy are not space magic. Only synthesis is.

[dreman9999]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Your kidding?

Giving you ethically conflicting choice then giving a moral one contradict the very concept of hard choices. it basicly giving you an easy way out.

No, the trade off would be the situation remains unresolved. AKA since we cannot agree on a moral compromise situation we will continue to fight until only one faction remains.

cutscene glorious space battle

basically dying trying instead of making do with a bad hand of cards or giving up at the end.

If  the point is to bring te player to moral conflict andyou give them an easy choice to make, the point of moral conflict is lost. You don't see that?

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:19 .

[Ticonderoga117]

AlanC9 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

You've got Refuse.

Make awesome speech... and then sit on your duff and that's it. Hardly a well constructed ending.

[Redbelle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

just putting this out there. but pretty sure that colonist ( f*ck if i can remember her name ) lilith i think . pretty sure she wasn't uploaded before being turned into goo . just saying

catalyst straight up says shep will die, copy will be made , and a new ai will be "born" based off it

Having 2 shepards still means both Shepards are Shepards.

Seen Caprica? Virtual Zoe was not Zoe, even if she had both memories and personality. Just a clone of her mind. Same for Control Shepard.

More like a being with differt experiances with you as the base it's persona.

It´s still another being. Not the Shepard we´ve been following, although I consider Catalyst Shepard a living being in its own right. I didn´t choose Control because it felt like Gandalf taking the One Ring.

Inheritly is. It die not get a new persona.

Also, you missing that fact here that the one ring had a will of it's own and the reaper do not. You commad them, not ithem commanding you

Ok, hold up. One of the underlying and recurring theme's throughout ME1, 2 and 3 is that you do not control the Reapers. They control you.

To expect the fanbase to accept such an about turn in ME lore in the space of ten minutes is the biggest leap of faith I've ever seen a developer take.

What were they thinking?

CH: "Now. I have the ME fans in the palm of my hand. Ready to accept whatever truth I place before them. Cause I created the Catalyst.......... And it's awesome".

Groan eminates from the closet.

CH: "Silence Weekly! Your in my world now!"

Modifié par Redbelle, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[DirtySHISN0]

AlanC9 wrote...

You've got Refuse.

Words mean nothing in the refuse speech, afterwards shepard will still be dead along with her words.

Also the refuse speech seems to think having principles absolves responsibility.

Continuing to fight would be more appropriate, because so long as organics survive there is a chance to turn the odds. There isn't if you stand still and say "done".


Resist ending.


Ticonderoga (starship troopers reference?) is on the same page as me.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:23 .

[ghost9191]

AlanC9 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

You've got Refuse.

just as wrong in its own way

[AlanC9]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

You can't ask people how far they are prepared to go and then fail to provide a single ethically correct ending.

You've got Refuse.