42 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark star 1]

So let me start out by saying I am a bit of a power gamer. I have been looking for a pw for a while that can accommodate my play style.
 
All the worlds I have encountered so far all have an end point. You can keep on playing them, but at some point your character maxes out, it is as good as it is going to get, and although they offer re-playability by building a new character, once you max out on your main, you can retire it, or use it to stomp the hell out of the mod, but that’s about it.
 
Is there anything out there that can offer true incentive to a power gamer such as myself?

Modifié par Dark star 1, 27 décembre 2012 - 04:52 .

[Lazarus Magni]

There are a number of very good action servers. I can tell you from experience PoA (HGLL), neversummer, badlands, legends of chance, are all excellent. And servers like HoW, and underworld come highly recommended. And then there are quite a few hidden gems, like Aventia 3 Merged- Unlimited Levels.

Even on Av3, we have a finite number of areas (1300 ish maps), and a hardcoded level cap of 2000. Although no player has, at this time, ever exceeded level 650. Subsequently we only have areas for players up to level 700 currently. The unending nature of nwn 1 PWs comes from servers that continue to be active in development. For example if we start getting more high level players on Av3, we can certainly add more content for them.

Development takes a lot of time however, so the only true way to experience an unending adventure in the realm of NWN 1 is to play on multiple servers. That way you experience new things quite often, and it may seem to be infinite. Additionally getting involved in development, can only further expand the worlds you are interested in, and contribute toward the unending adventure which is NWN 1.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 01 novembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Fatal Assassin]

I have to say I find this kind of funny... I have checked Aventia 3 out a bit. Played it over 40 hours and my highest lvl is 30. I can't imagine what it takes to get to 600 or even 300. Iduno about the other servers you mentioned Lazarus, but you certainly can't get to end game on Aventia in short order.

Modifié par Fatal Assassin, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Lazarus Magni]

LOL Fatal… that is kinda the point. Aventia is over 9 years old. Subsequently so is our player base. If you could get to “end game” content in a week it wouldn’t be very unlimited…

That being said, on Av1 the xp cap was 150, on Av2 250, and on Av3 it is currently 1000 (although previously was 300, and then 500.) In about 6 months, prior to the cap being boosted to 1000, we had a player reach 400+ (actually I think it was less than 6 months.)

So no you can’t reach end game in a week. You can certainly get to the highest lvl areas though if you are committed.

But that doesn’t take away from my previous point about the NWN 1 universe being unlimited. Av3 is just one of many “action” mods, with all the other combined genera’s the universe is essentially without limit.

It’s a beautiful thing if you ask me…

P.S. BTW I have seen folks get up past lvl 40 in less than one day on Av3...

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 02 novembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Aelis Eine]

Dark star 1 wrote...

So let me start out by saying I am a bit of a power gamer. I have been looking for a pw for a while that can accommodate my play style.
 
All the worlds I have encountered so far all have an end point. You can keep on playing them, but at some point your character maxes out, it is as good as it is going to get, and although they offer re-playability by building a new character, once you max out on your main, you can retire it, or use it to stomp the hell out of the mod, but that’s about it.
 
Is there anything out there that can offer true incentive to a power gamer such as myself?

Honestly you shouldn't be playing NWN for that =p

All RPG-type games have an end point - you hit max level then you grind for top end gear and you're pretty much done until the developer can churn out the next content expansion/update. Some games offer PvP so that players with endgame gear have a new and potentially limitless challenge to overcome, since they'll be fighting other players that think and learn as they do (for the most part).

NWN servers are run with limited resources, so if content is what you're looking for, there is definitely going to be less content than a commercial MMO. I don't think the PvE-focused PWs offer much PvP either.

If the PvP servers like Antiworld and Bastions of War are still alive, you might want to try that, but the NWN metagame has been played out and there hasn't been many new PvP build developments there. In the end you'll find yourself sticking to the same few builds and classes and fighting others with something similar.

If you're not into PvP, try looking at Dungeons and Dragons Online. I didn't like it much but the classes are similar to NWN and offers a reincarnation system so you can keep replaying your capped old character from level 1 with small bonuses every time you do it. Not to mention a very time consuming raiding/gearing game that I didn't want to bother with.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 03 novembre 2012 - 01:17 .

[icywind1980]

@Aelis Eine: Don't you think it a little presumptuous and down right rude to have the nerve to tell someone how they should play a game, or not to play it at all? I sure do.

Now for the OP: As for Powergamer servers- some of the best ones I ever played on are sadly gone with the wind. Neversummer North was by far the best. While it's true, the game limits you to 40 levels on that server, there was always something to do at level 40. Most of the best things couldn't even be done until level 28. I haven't tried Neversummer East in quite some time as I remember after the admin's computer died, they lost all our characters and we all had to start over again with nothing to show for it. It wasn't quite the same- people became greedy and no one ever wanted to party, out of fear that someone would steal their gear or drops. That was about two years ago, so maybe people have restocked their hoards and might be more party friendly and newbie friendly, or might not be.

Regarding Aventia, you can read over my comments in the appropriate thread there. These are my opinions and may or may not be the opinions of any other players there.

If you can stand public sex, being hit on all the time and constantly feeling a little gross, you could try Sinfar (if you are 18+). I played there briefly and found the leveling fun and easy for the most part. Too easy in some places, challenging in others. If you put in your description something like "not interested in sex" people will for the most part, leave you alone. The downsides of course are that the world is huge- over 1GB mandatory downloads and more than 2GB others but to experience it, you'll want all of them. Also the server admin kind of makes changes on the fly and doesn't give one crap about how much he hurts the players of the mod. So there's that. But if you're into customizations and building your own weapons and epic leveling, you might like it.

Deathlands was fun at first but became very tedious.

12 Dark Secrets was also fun, but if you don't get an experienced player to run you around in the beginning, you won't be able to figure it out. Also, you stop earning normal experience at level 18 or 20, I believe and you will need a party to continue on. Which is about impossible with the 1-2 players on at max.

Soul Forge is back up again. This was originally intended as a RP server but with the new admins, they decided to put it up under PW action. It has a low player base at the moment and the original forums are gone, but there is a facebook group and a temp forum. It's not at all what I'd call end game friendly, but many of the players I've talked to have solo'd to 40 and stomp around places looking for gear to twink out new characters.

Hmm I'd recommend also not bothering with anything Nordock related. It's difficult to figure out quests as they do not use journal entries and quest items generally do not have instructions on them. Also exp is very low and it's super easy to stumble into a high level area like right outside of town.

There used to be an awesome server called Demonrealms but that has sadly gone with the wind. I heard talk of the admins bringing it back once or twice, but it's all been talk.

I think Tornado of Souls is still around. This place was genuinely fun. It's a lot more fun with more players, obviously so if it's still around, end game might be difficult. Otherwise I'd suggest giving it a go.

I'll post back if I can find any other good ones for you. It seems like we're more or less in the same boat, but I've resigned myself to single player mods and/or lan parties with two other players. I think PW's are going out of style.

[leo_x]

Dark star 1 wrote...

So let me start out by saying I am a bit of a power gamer. I have been looking for a pw for a while that can accommodate my play style.
 
All the worlds I have encountered so far all have an end point. You can keep on playing them, but at some point your character maxes out, it is as good as it is going to get, and although they offer re-playability by building a new character, once you max out on your main, you can retire it, or use it to stomp the hell out of the mod, but that’s about it.
 
Is there anything out there that can offer true incentive to a power gamer such as myself?

I'm curious if you have in mind a concrete idea of what the true incentive would entail?  I'm inclined to agree with Aelis Eine.  NWN PWs don't lend themselves very well to the skinner box MMO style, for lack of better terms.

Perhaps, you're hearing the clarion call??  "Become a builder...(you know you want to)...!"

Modifié par pope_leo, 03 novembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Aelis Eine]

icywind1980 wrote...

@Aelis Eine: Don't you think it a little presumptuous and down right rude to have the nerve to tell someone how they should play a game, or not to play it at all? I sure do.

I'm not telling them how they should play a game, I'm telling them how they can't play a game because what they're looking for doesn't exist. Even by your own admission:

icywind1980 wrote...

I've resigned myself to single player mods and/or lan parties with two other players. I think PW's are going out of style.

You haven't quantified a good endgame on any NWN server, other than a very vague statement about Neversummer, that "there was always something to do at level 40" - like what and for how long? Instead you list a few grouses about high level play, like having grind that gets tedious or having difficulty finding parties, and that only proves my point.

From my personal experience as a builder, 10 hours of work = 1 hour of gameplay that's fun enough to repeat a few times. In context, 3 years ago I'd estimate I played on Leo's Awakening server for about 50 hours, split across 2 characters roughly 35-15. Assuming an average development time investment of 3 hours/week, which is pretty normal to avoid burnout and balance the work, family and playing time etc, that's another 156 hours of development for 15.6 hours of gameplay. Suppose that's repeated 2 times on average (most content run once, some run 2-5 times) and added to my original 35 hours, that's around 66 hours that I can expect from a server.

In Aventia's case, they have more than one builder and 9 years of history, so 100+ hours isn't farfetched, maybe even 200+, but that's still under the hundreds of thousands of hours some MMOs expect players to put in.

Side note here: If you add up the number of hours per server and multiply by the average number of alts you play, you can probably get thousands of hours of gameplay, and NWN is very very good value for money because of that. But If you're looking to spend that thousands of hours on a single server with a single character, I don't think that's possible unless you have a very high tolerance for tedium and repetition.

I will freely admit some servers like Aventia and Chance offer some form of endgame character advancement, but they're usually based on power creep - you fight more or less the same templates, just that maybe their appearances are different and you get bigger numbers coming out of both you and the mob, and maybe you stack this resist instead of that resist but ultimately you get the feeling of sameness.

Bottom line is NWN just plain doesn't work as a single character timesink, and rightfully so. Even commercial MMOs have trouble doing that and some resort to methods like low exp/droprates, instance cooldowns to extend artifically gameplay and squeeze out that extra month of subscription or pay to win shortcut purchase.

[Aelis Eine]

Edit: double post

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 04 novembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[Dark star 1]

Well for me it is a matter of, once you reach 40, or exceed 40 (or whatever the “endgame” lvl is), what does the server have to offer to maintain the interest of it’s players?

As far as Aventia 3 is concerned, me and my roommates have been checking it out some. So far it seems pretty decent, although based off the guide book describing level areas, and the levels of other players we see logging in, we have barely scratched the surface. So I can’t really speak to what “endgame” content is like there.

Basically I just want a PW that can continue to maintain my interest for the long haul. From what I hear here that is not possible with NWN 1, yet at the same time, I see the community is still strong despite it being over 10 years old. Kind of an oxymoron don’t you think?

[Aelis Eine]

Dark star 1 wrote...

Well for me it is a matter of, once you reach 40, or exceed 40 (or whatever the “endgame” lvl is), what does the server have to offer to maintain the interest of it’s players?

This question is much easier to answer =p The usual suspects have all been named. I don't think there's been mention of The Awakening so I'll add that to the list. It offers a similar legendary level system to Higher Ground, but with more focus on character build than gear grind, and more traditional NWN gameplay.

There was also mention of Legends of Chance, but it has some special circumstances. The server is UK-hosted and Gamespy doesn't pick up UK servers for some reason. You'll need to go to its forums at www.legendsofchance.net to get its IP. The current IP is 86.19.133.119. It features god levels post-40, which are kind of like Aventia's, but with more perks like immunities and auto-rezzes, although it comes with more grinding per level too.

Basically I just want a PW that can continue to maintain my interest for the long haul. From what I hear here that is not possible with NWN 1, yet at the same time, I see the community is still strong despite it being over 10 years old. Kind of an oxymoron don’t you think?

It's not really strong. I would call the community active and passionate, but numerically it's not strong. According to Gamespy, there's 608 players currently online, but 144 are fake players from Sinfar - They tally their player count across 3 servers, and reflect that as their player count per server, so the real number is 464. Compared to other games released in the 2002-2003 period, that's 14.9% of the 3,118 concurrent players on Ragnarok Online, according to Ragial, and 1.21% of the 38,266 concurrent players on EVE Online, according to EVE-Offline.

I'd consider NWN's main demographics to be altoholics, casual gamers, RPers, and cybersexers. The first 2 groups are the ones you'd typically see in an Action server, and they add up to 116 out of that 464.

Out of that 116 you'll be hard pressed to find hardcore powergamer types who aren't altoholics. If you're not an altoholic you'll probably have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in a single server for say, more than 2 weeks of hardcore playing (4+ hours/day). Some players get around this by server hopping, and it looks like that's what you're experiencing.

Still, if you're looking for a NWN server, I think there's a pretty comprehensive list in this thread. Whether any of them work for the long haul probably depends on the person, but from my experience both running a server, talking to players and being a player myself, if you're a hardcore powergamer 4+ hours/day bust-out-excel-sheets blaze-through-content type, I don't think they can give you what you want =p

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 05 novembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[Shadooow]

Dark star 1 wrote...

Well for me it is a matter of, once you reach 40, or exceed 40 (or whatever the “endgame” lvl is), what does the server have to offer to maintain the interest of it’s players?

As far as Aventia 3 is concerned, me and my roommates have been checking it out some. So far it seems pretty decent, although based off the guide book describing level areas, and the levels of other players we see logging in, we have barely scratched the surface. So I can’t really speak to what “endgame” content is like there.

Basically I just want a PW that can continue to maintain my interest for the long haul. From what I hear here that is not possible with NWN 1, yet at the same time, I see the community is still strong despite it being over 10 years old. Kind of an oxymoron don’t you think?

you can try PW of mine, Arkhalia, its lvl 40based loot action PW server. Dungeons there always end with boss and treasure and there is overwhelming ammount of possibilities you can improve your character:
0) easy to level up 40, its possible to do it in 24hours if you know how and have equip already
1) extreme ammount of various items
- there are gems you can put into your weapon to add damage, there are non-slotted weapons (also called uniques) you can fold up together (4same = 1higher) up to +10, slotted weapons can be fold up up to +8/3slots
- there are class-specific items, such as armor for ranger lvl 30 that grants very nice bonuses incomparable with any other armor
- there are shadowy amulets and other items that you can put into any item you wear and get bonus item properties from them on this item; example: shadowy amulet of +1 strenght, rezist 5/element, rezist 10/element, keen, vampiric regen, on-hot vorpal, +1skill
- there is really enourmous support and equip variety for ranged characters, special shadowy amulets like "mighty +20", possibility to add keen, onhit vorpal, vampire regeneration into ranged weapon as well and even throwing weapons have great support here - you can find so called throwing weapon generator which generates unlimited stack of throwing weapon, again all shadowy amulets apply and you can even add special one that increases stack sizer by 50 (double ammunition)
- there are very powerfull items divided into three pieces, you have to find two pieces, buy the third and only then you can complete it and get the final product (most shadowy amulets are divided)
- there are even powerfull items that except competing requires "exping", after you complete it you get +1versions and you must feed the item with XPs to get +7version
2) legendary levels
- differs from Aventia in way they are much much harder to get and gives less bonuses, but its a way to improve your character further; example: 1. legendary level is at 5milion XP, second at 10milion, bonuses are based on class, casters gets +1caster level, warriors +1ab/dmg, etc. what class you can choose depends on builds, there are some rules:
3) great challenges for solo players
- there are dungeons intented for solo players, if you arent "party player" then you can find this very enjoyable, often is said these dungeons are tough (by newcomers), yet the best skillers out there are finishing them blindfolded - from this reason I created hardcore dungeon versions which are challenge even for the very powerfull characters with awesome items on them
4) party only dungeons
- some dungeons we have are party only, to finish dungeon one have to bring char A, one must take char B, there are four dungeons for 2players, 8 dungeons for 3ppls and 2hardest for 4+, and new dungeons are being added
5) kill statistics (LINK)
- killing of the boss is written into database and 5 best killers is written on the page
6) friendly players
- PK is nonexistant here because all players cooperates with each other in order to complete party for various dungeons and are always kind to help newcomers, current ppl count is 10same players playing each day, almost always is someone in

unfortunately it has one big disadvantage, the server language isnt english... but is definitely possible to play there if you want to, in conversations, pressing 1 will mostly get you where you need and there are only few quest and all optionals, players all speaks also english so that should be problem also, still the informations on forum are all in czech language. If you would want to try it, you need to register your account name with your cdkey here, and dowload haks here. and here.

[leo_x]

Since Aelis Eine mentioned my server, The Awakening, (I recognize the name Dark Star so I am assuming you already tried it), I would add a few notes about how I think it relates to what you're looking for.

After I replaced the Higher Ground Legendary Level system with my own, so that levels 40-60 are real levels as far as the game is concerned (gaining AB, saves, etc, per the 2da files, fully multi-classable and respecable), characters gained a ton of (currently unanswered) power.  On account of that, I think that your main would face very little endgame challenge.

That said we're back developing after a long hiatus.  So there are some things coming down the pike that may be of interest to you, even if the server is not currently your cup of tea.

- Guild Wars 2 inspired PvE level scaling.  Areas will have an effective level, so when a character goes into an area that's lower level then they are they get scaled back.  I won't go into the details of how it works, but as it relates to your main: you would be able to go into areas that your gear and level far out match and not totally decimate everything.  Or to put it another way, your main could find at least some challenge outside things that are strictly endgame or it could help lower level characters without completely dominating.

- Diablo inspired (if you're really squinting) style itemization system.  I.e. Item drops will have properties determined by die rolls.  In your case your main might have an incentive to rerun endgame areas to perfect the rolls.  

I'm also working on a major custom content update, that will hopefully inspire the team to build new areas.

In any case, good luck on your server search!

- leo

Modifié par pope_leo, 05 novembre 2012 - 11:14 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Aelis Eine wrote...

Dark star 1 wrote...

So let me start out by saying I am a bit of a power gamer. I have been looking for a pw for a while that can accommodate my play style.

All the worlds I have encountered so far all have an end point. You can keep on playing them, but at some point your character maxes out, it is as good as it is going to get, and although they offer re-playability by building a new character, once you max out on your main, you can retire it, or use it to stomp the hell out of the mod, but that’s about it.

Is there anything out there that can offer true incentive to a power gamer such as myself?

Honestly you shouldn't be playing NWN for that =p

All RPG-type games have an end point - you hit max level then you grind for top end gear and you're pretty much done until the developer can churn out the next content expansion/update. Some games offer PvP so that players with endgame gear have a new and potentially limitless challenge to overcome, since they'll be fighting other players that think and learn as they do (for the most part).

NWN servers are run with limited resources, so if content is what you're looking for, there is definitely going to be less content than a commercial MMO. I don't think the PvE-focused PWs offer much PvP either.

If the PvP servers like Antiworld and Bastions of War are still alive, you might want to try that, but the NWN metagame has been played out and there hasn't been many new PvP build developments there. In the end you'll find yourself sticking to the same few builds and classes and fighting others with something similar.

If you're not into PvP, try looking at Dungeons and Dragons Online. I didn't like it much but the classes are similar to NWN and offers a reincarnation system so you can keep replaying your capped old character from level 1 with small bonuses every time you do it. Not to mention a very time consuming raiding/gearing game that I didn't want to bother with.

Wow… ok… I beg to differ.

No doubt every game has an end point, however with NWN, and specifically in my own experience with Aventia 3 Merged- Unlimited Levels, the end point thus far is exclusively defined by what we as Av3 community members contribute to the mod. Currently we have 1300+ areas from level 5-600+ and if we get more high lvl players we could easily add more content, if people were interested in doing so. Hence… It is unlimited (even with a 2000 cap, given no one has even reached half this, it is essentially unlimited for the time being.)

“Less Content than a commercial MMO”??? Your joking right? Or maybe disillusioned… With community contributed content (not just for Av3, but NWN 1 in general) we, the players, can churn out way more content than a team of 20ish paid programmers (sorry WOW, but it’s true, there is strength in numbers, and in this case the numbers come from us, the players.)

No doubt PVP adds an additional element for the NWN 1 dynamic. I miss DeX. However for action, you don’t need this. Sadly pvp did not receive a category of it’s own for nwn 1 PWs and got lumped into action.

icywind1980 wrote...

@Aelis Eine: Don't you think it a little presumptuous and down right rude to have the nerve to tell someone how they should play a game, or not to play it at all? I sure do.

Now for the OP: As for Powergamer servers- some of the best ones I ever played on are sadly gone with the wind. Neversummer North was by far the best. While it's true, the game limits you to 40 levels on that server, there was always something to do at level 40. Most of the best things couldn't even be done until level 28. I haven't tried Neversummer East in quite some time as I remember after the admin's computer died, they lost all our characters and we all had to start over again with nothing to show for it. It wasn't quite the same- people became greedy and no one ever wanted to party, out of fear that someone would steal their gear or drops. That was about two years ago, so maybe people have restocked their hoards and might be more party friendly and newbie friendly, or might not be.

Regarding Aventia, you can read over my comments in the appropriate thread there. These are my opinions and may or may not be the opinions of any other players there.

If you can stand public sex, being hit on all the time and constantly feeling a little gross, you could try Sinfar (if you are 18+). I played there briefly and found the leveling fun and easy for the most part. Too easy in some places, challenging in others. If you put in your description something like "not interested in sex" people will for the most part, leave you alone. The downsides of course are that the world is huge- over 1GB mandatory downloads and more than 2GB others but to experience it, you'll want all of them. Also the server admin kind of makes changes on the fly and doesn't give one crap about how much he hurts the players of the mod. So there's that. But if you're into customizations and building your own weapons and epic leveling, you might like it.

Deathlands was fun at first but became very tedious.

12 Dark Secrets was also fun, but if you don't get an experienced player to run you around in the beginning, you won't be able to figure it out. Also, you stop earning normal experience at level 18 or 20, I believe and you will need a party to continue on. Which is about impossible with the 1-2 players on at max.

Soul Forge is back up again. This was originally intended as a RP server but with the new admins, they decided to put it up under PW action. It has a low player base at the moment and the original forums are gone, but there is a facebook group and a temp forum. It's not at all what I'd call end game friendly, but many of the players I've talked to have solo'd to 40 and stomp around places looking for gear to twink out new characters.

Hmm I'd recommend also not bothering with anything Nordock related. It's difficult to figure out quests as they do not use journal entries and quest items generally do not have instructions on them. Also exp is very low and it's super easy to stumble into a high level area like right outside of town.

There used to be an awesome server called Demonrealms but that has sadly gone with the wind. I heard talk of the admins bringing it back once or twice, but it's all been talk.

I think Tornado of Souls is still around. This place was genuinely fun. It's a lot more fun with more players, obviously so if it's still around, end game might be difficult. Otherwise I'd suggest giving it a go.

I'll post back if I can find any other good ones for you. It seems like we're more or less in the same boat, but I've resigned myself to single player mods and/or lan parties with two other players. I think PW's are going out of style.

Wow again… ok…

Regarding Aventia 3… You played what 5 hrs? And didn’t heed the advice from me and other players? (e.g. read the guide book)… Umm ok your criticism was duly noted.

Public sex? Sorry… that shiznit is lame as hell. If your not playing something specifically designated toward it, it should not be masquerading as an action server (not looking for that kind of “action” personally from my online video gaming.)

Your other server reviews… I have no idea about, but given your general stance I would not put much worth in them. I know for a fact neversummer is fun as hell.

Aelis Eine wrote...

In Aventia's case, they have more than one builder and 9 years of history, so 100+ hours isn't farfetched, maybe even 200+, but that's still under the hundreds of thousands of hours some MMOs expect players to put in.

...

I will freely admit some servers like Aventia and Chance offer some form of endgame character advancement, but they're usually based on power creep - you fight more or less the same templates, just that maybe their appearances are different and you get bigger numbers coming out of both you and the mob, and maybe you stack this resist instead of that resist but ultimately you get the feeling of sameness.

Bottom line is NWN just plain doesn't work as a single character timesink, and rightfully so. Even commercial MMOs have trouble doing that and some resort to methods like low exp/droprates, instance cooldowns to extend artifically gameplay and squeeze out that extra month of subscription or pay to win shortcut purchase.

Absolutely, on Aventia 3 (specifically since there is more than one), we have had 100+ people work on the mod over the last almost 10 years. 200+ game hrs? Please… it’s more like 1000+ if not 2000+ or more. Ask some of the people who have actually reached level 400+…

Compared to “MMOs”… ok this is getting laughable. No doubt your statistics you threw up are valid. But if Bioware/Arari/EA hadn’t nearly abandoned NWN 1, things might be quite different, and those of us who still play recognize this game is still way better than those released at the same time, and considering the online customizability is still top end (in fact unsurpassed)... yeah this game still rocks!

The feeling of sameness? Are you referring to video games in general, or have something real to offer for criticism? There is a general framework we all work off of. It starts with the base, and builds… if you have an idea for a more dynamic base, you could prolly make the most dynamic video game that has ever existed. Until then… we are all going to be working off static bases… And NWN is one of the most dynamic bases I have seen.

Aelis Eine wrote...

I'd consider NWN's main demographics to be altoholics, casual gamers, RPers, and cybersexers. The first 2 groups are the ones you'd typically see in an Action server, and they add up to 116 out of that 464.

Is that your general assessment of video gamers or just NWNers? Or maybe players on action servers? I personally take some offense to this.

What type of server do you play on (or host)? Let me guess… RP? The only reason RP servers are the most popular (other than the sex servers, which I guess are also RP in a sense) is because, a) it’s a lot easer to directly tap into your player’s creative minds and work off them, rather than get them to do work in the toolset to provide lasting content, and developing a story around a player is “unlimited”. You can perpetuate that story as long as you want (if you play within the confines of the world). Actually this I believe is the main reason RP servers are the most popular in NWN. You don’t need hours in the toolset to create areas, or incredibly complex and sophisticated scripting to get a player to use their imagination. It is intrinsic to most of us. And we happily express it (which RP PWs can tap into.)

The thing is, you can pretty much apply RP to any concept (e.g. the sex servers or better yet action servers.) Apply it to an action server and you could make it unlimited in that aspect alone. The hard thing is to apply it in a static nature. (e.g. from building and scripting.)

Av3 is actually not opposed to RP. I have tried to get such quests going in the past. But sadly they never got the interest they prolly deserved. It’s kinda the opposite edge of the RP dynamic. Although it allows unlimited potential due to our imaginations…. It requires DM’s to facilitate it. Which is no less an investment of time than scripting or building, and yet less lasting.

I guess the ease of facilitating RP explains the current RP popularity, and the difficulty of facilitating action explains the current action un-popularity comparatively.


P.S. Glad to see Av3 made some of you all's radar, and inspired (or prompted at least) some other post 40 content (similar or otherwise...) As a player for over 8 years there was quite a lack of that, and as a player I am happy to see it evolve on Av3 or other servers. Before you all speak on Av3 though you might want to get to know it . Or I will not hesitate to check you on that.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

“Less Content than a commercial MMO”??? Your joking right? Or maybe disillusioned… With community contributed content (not just for Av3, but NWN 1 in general) we, the players, can churn out way more content than a team of 20ish paid programmers (sorry WOW, but it’s true, there is strength in numbers, and in this case the numbers come from us, the players.)

If you claiming there's only "20ish paid programmers" working on WoW, I'm hoping it's *you* who is joking.

And there is far more content in WoW than in any single NWN server, which is what his point was.

But there are a ton of NWN servers which add up to more raw content than WoW.  Most of it is far inferior in quality, though.

[Lazarus Magni]

Actually it's prolly more like 5 or 10. If they had an army of game developers they would be releasing updates every couple weeks at most, and expansions every couple months (or pseudo expansions like the lich king one). Although market forces might prevent such a proliferation of “official” expansions. Consumers generally like to get their moneys worth.) They are prolly working off a proprietary toolset, and scripting lanugage, like we in the NWN 1 community, except bioware made it public (hence open to the community to work with.) But this is neither here nor there. I am not really interested in getting into another WOW vs NWN 1 debate with you MM.

And my whole point was not one server vs WOW (or any other MMO for that matter.) It was the length, breath, and scope of the entire NWN community vs those proprietary models that is. You just admitted yourself, indeed the nwn community has more content. In terms of quality? Well… I beg to differ. Which is pretty amazing if you ask me considering most NWN 1 CC contributors don’t get paid for it. That just goes to show the power and potential of the gaming community. One a game developer would be wise to tap into.

[Aelis Eine]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Wow… ok… I beg to differ.

No doubt every game has an end point, however with NWN, and specifically in my own experience with Aventia 3 Merged- Unlimited Levels, the end point thus far is exclusively defined by what we as Av3 community members contribute to the mod. Currently we have 1300+ areas from level 5-600+ and if we get more high lvl players we could easily add more content, if people were interested in doing so. Hence… It is unlimited (even with a 2000 cap, given no one has even reached half this, it is essentially unlimited for the time being.)

“Less Content than a commercial MMO”??? Your joking right? Or maybe disillusioned… With community contributed content (not just for Av3, but NWN 1 in general) we, the players, can churn out way more content than a team of 20ish paid programmers (sorry WOW, but it’s true, there is strength in numbers, and in this case the numbers come from us, the players.)

No doubt PVP adds an additional element for the NWN 1 dynamic. I miss DeX. However for action, you don’t need this. Sadly pvp did not receive a category of it’s own for nwn 1 PWs and got lumped into action.

With community contributed content I agree that you can get a lot of mileage, but I think there's a few ceilings that you will hit, especially with a lack of haks - I believe Aventia only uses CEP so you should be familiar with the issues I'm about to highlight.

One is an art asset ceiling. You can only make so many templates before you start recycling things like tilesets, creature skins, placeables, animations and special effects. No doubt CEP has quite a lot, but to make an interesting area I think a lot is required too. CEP content is also so old that it won't be surprising to see a similar idea executed somewhere else, making it feel recycled to a veteran NWN1 player.

Another ceiling is mechanical. If you don't use haks, you're stuck with using the same spells, feats, classes and abilities. You can get a bit of variety by doing some mix and match, but if you have 1300+ maps as you claim, I'm pretty sure you won't have unique mobs for all 1300+, and there will be many instances where the same creature template is repeated, even if not intentional. E.g. Builder A makes a mage, Builder B makes a mage. Both mages end up being Ice Storm spammers.

So the more builders you have, the faster you hit the ceiling, and then you get diminishing returns on their efforts.

As for your 100 contributors, how many hours do they contribute on average? Lets run with your number of 20 full time developers on a hypothetical MMO working over 10 years. That's 365 days x 4.5/7 days a week to account for weekends, public holidays and leave x 8 hours x 10 years x 20 developers, or roughly 375,000 man-hours. For 100 contributors to match that, they would need to put in 3,750 hours each, on average. Given that they have their real life and playing time, and that many of them probably aren't around for the full 10 years of Aventia's life, 3,750 hours is a very tall order for a hobbyist builder. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's probably unhealthy and I've seen talented builders and admins burn themselves out like that.

Absolutely, on Aventia 3 (specifically since there is more than one), we have had 100+ people work on the mod over the last almost 10 years. 200+ game hrs? Please… it’s more like 1000+ if not 2000+ or more. Ask some of the people who have actually reached level 400+…

Compared to “MMOs”… ok this is getting laughable. No doubt your statistics you threw up are valid. But if Bioware/Arari/EA hadn’t nearly abandoned NWN 1, things might be quite different, and those of us who still play recognize this game is still way better than those released at the same time, and considering the online customizability is still top end (in fact unsurpassed)... yeah this game still rocks!

The feeling of sameness? Are you referring to video games in general, or have something real to offer for criticism? There is a general framework we all work off of. It starts with the base, and builds… if you have an idea for a more dynamic base, you could prolly make the most dynamic video game that has ever existed. Until then… we are all going to be working off static bases… And NWN is one of the most dynamic bases I have seen.

Given that there are certain hard limits that an NWN builder will run into, I would say there is an interest cap and a level cap. To elaborate on the MMO "Skinner Box" theory, typically a developer will want to match interest level to XP, such that a player can advance in power fast enough to see new, interesting content before their interest tapers off, but slow enough that to buy time for development.

However, I observe that Aventia is dead a lot of the time, even if, as you say, many people haven't reached the level cap. So I think for a majority of players, their interest tapers off long before they actually go through the full supposed 1000+ hours of content. What if you raise XP levels? Then the projected number of hours drop proportionately, for example 2x EXP means 500 hours instead of 1000. So 1000+ might apply to a minority of dedicated players, which is a good thing. Hardcore fans are few and far between, and you should really appreciate those that you find. But for the majority I still stick by my initial estimate of 200+.

So should Aventia's XP levels be raised? That honestly depends on the admin's direction. I personally think as an NWN server admin, there's no profit to be made, so there's no point in trying to maximize player numbers to cater to the lowest common denominator. What's more important is making something fun for yourself and the people you care about.

As for the feeling of sameness, I think I already covered that in my response to your first quote.

Is that your general assessment of video gamers or just NWNers? Or maybe players on action servers? I personally take some offense to this.

*snip*

Mind elaborating on what exactly you took offense to? The statistic of 464 was the number of players on NWN at the time of writing, and 116 was from tallying the non-RP tabs - Action, PW Action and Arena. They're just numbers. They're gathered for analysis, not so much for getting offended by.

My own theory on the relatively smaller Action community is that Action servers compete more directly with MMOs like Guild Wars 2 and MOBAs like League of Legends. In those games the RP community is a lot smaller - try finding an RPer in League of Legends! And NWN servers are held back by the 2 ceilings I described so they're at a very big disadvantage.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[Lazarus Magni]

You seem to think I was saying Aventia alone has more content than WOW? No, what I actually said is NWN 1 does. When you take the original game, all the single player mods, and PWs, it’s not even close.

Just to clear up a few things here. There are currently 2 different Aventias. Aventia 3 Merged, Unlimited levels, which I am the owner of, and the AventiaG servers which are completely independent.

You also seem to think I am claiming 100+ different people are currently working on Aventia. What I said was over the nearly 10 years of it’s existence (through 3 different generations of owners) 100+ people have worked on the mod in that time.

As far as the “ceiling” with CEP 2.3 which Av3 uses, there are 41 different tilesets, and you can configure each of those 100 different ways. And creatures… I have no idea how many… 1000’s each can also be configured a number of different ways. We have almost 3000 custom creatures, and haven't even come close to using all the different ones. Of course with 100+ different people having worked on a mod separately over nearly 10 years, there is bound to be some overlap of content (especially considering a good chunk was built years ago, before all the additional stuff we have now, was available), but actually in the year + I have been the owner, one of the things I have done, is update areas that had such overlap of content (same creature skins for example, changed to different ones.) We absolutely have not hit any kind of artistic ceiling.

Same goes for customizations. There is a 100 different ways you can alter the game mechanics (e.g. 100 different ways you can alter a spell.) I would guess, 90% of our spells have been modified, most classes modified, and many feat and ability changes. And then there is our post 40 system. And this is just 1 PW, out of thousands that have existed over the years.

And sure there will be overlap between servers too. When Funky released HGLL a number of servers adopted it. But as time went on, a number of them also modified it to be unique to their worlds.

The potential for unique content is enormous.

I am not sure what you mean about Aventia being dead most of the time. Aventia is an old server. At it’s peak, back in 2003-2005 there were 30 different people on Av1 at any given time. Interest tapered off, and dwindled down to a much smaller, but steady active player base, which was maintained through Av2 (the server vault contains over 3000 player folders, a good 500 or so have been from the year and a half I have been the owner.) On Av3, I have tried hard to rekindle some interest in old players, and promote it to gain the interest of new players. We are no where near the 2003-2005 peak, and prolly never will be, but I have been quite proud of the interest we have fueled, especially considering how old the game is, how much smaller the community is these days, and the fact that players often get attached to their “home worlds” and seldom branch out, and explore others.

And what I took offense to was this:

Aelis Eine wrote...

I'd consider NWN's main demographics to be altoholics, casual gamers, RPers, and cybersexers. The first 2 groups are the ones you'd typically see in an Action server, and they add up to 116 out of that 464.

Out of that 116 you'll be hard pressed to find hardcore powergamer types who aren't altoholics. If you're not an altoholic you'll probably have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in a single server for say, more than 2 weeks of hardcore playing (4+ hours/day). Some players get around this by server hopping, and it looks like that's what you're experiencing.

You basically are calling people, such as me, who play action servers a bunch of alcoholic losers. Or at least that's how it seemed to me.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Actually it's prolly more like 5 or 10. If they had an army of game developers they would be releasing updates every couple weeks at most, and expansions every couple months (or pseudo expansions like the lich king one).

Pseduo expansions like the Lich King one?  Why do you consider that pseudo?

Also, just for you, I FRAPSed the first minute or so of the WoW credits, which mainly has the people directly programming WoW.  See how many you can count!  Hint: it's more than 5 or 10, there's that many team leads alone.

Video here:

Lazarus Magni wrote...

And my whole point was not one server vs WOW (or any other MMO for that matter.) It was the length, breath, and scope of the entire NWN community vs those proprietary models that is.

And the OP wanted ONE server to play on.

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

And what I took offense to was this:

Aelis Eine wrote...

I'd consider NWN's main demographics to be altoholics, casual gamers, RPers, and cybersexers. The first 2 groups are the ones you'd typically see in an Action server, and they add up to 116 out of that 464.

Out of that 116 you'll be hard pressed to find hardcore powergamer types who aren't altoholics. If you're not an altoholic you'll probably have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in a single server for say, more than 2 weeks of hardcore playing (4+ hours/day). Some players get around this by server hopping, and it looks like that's what you're experiencing.

You basically are calling people, such as me, who play action servers a bunch of alcoholic losers. Or at least that's how it seemed to me.

Altoholic != alcoholic.

[Lazarus Magni]

That's all the people who had worked on that expansion. That's not the people who are working currently just maintaining the game (patches, ect..)

And my bad, never heard that term before. Thought it was some very poor spelling.

[Lazarus Magni]

BTW the OP wanted an action server that can maintain her interest indefinitely. As I mentioned in my first or second response, that may not be possible, and that the truly unending adventure that is the NWN 1 experience comes from the wealth of diversity, both from single player mods, and PWs.

[MagicalMaster]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

That's all the people who had worked on that expansion. That's not the people who are working currently just maintaining the game (patches, ect..)

Think about what it takes to make a patch with a new raid alone.  New environments, new models, new items, new bosses (which often require new system engineering).  Plus balance changes, server upgrades (things like phasing and cross realm zones).  Then you often have new quests and/or dungeons which also take even more time (which can have extremely complex mechanics from a coding point of view).

Are some of the people working on WoW working on the next expansion rather than the patches for Mists of Pandaria?  Sure.  But there's a lot more than 10 people working on the next patch.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

And my bad, never heard that term before. Thought it was some very poor spelling.

Nope.  He originally said what you then agreed with, basically.

[Lazarus Magni]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

That's all the people who had worked on that expansion. That's not the people who are working currently just maintaining the game (patches, ect..)

Think about what it takes to make a patch with a new raid alone.  New environments, new models, new items, new bosses (which often require new system engineering).  Plus balance changes, server upgrades (things like phasing and cross realm zones).  Then you often have new quests and/or dungeons which also take even more time (which can have extremely complex mechanics from a coding point of view).

Are some of the people working on WoW working on the next expansion rather than the patches for Mists of Pandaria?  Sure.  But there's a lot more than 10 people working on the next patch.

Glad you have some idea of what is involved in making a new area for a NWN 1 PW. Oh wait... you were talking about WOW... LOL

Oh and, I was not saying my bad to you...

[Lazarus Magni]

BTW MM, have you heard the one about how many WOW game developers does it take to create one “raid”?

20.

How many people will pay for this?

10 million.

How many comparable nwn 1 “raids” are made in the same amount of time by the NWN 1 community?

20.

How many people pay for this?

0.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 08 novembre 2012 - 03:46 .