I also would like to ask everyone to stay calm and avoid any flame/holywars/etc. Keep thread civil.
I will start.
I'm currently in the middle of another walkthroug (atm - Origins), also I recently recompleted DA2 as well. Now I'm going to complete both once more, one after another to refresh my thoughts and impression about both. I will try post most of thoughts here, but most likely I will miss something and will post it later.
Also, I will keep my post in form of... some sort of essay, publications, or maybe thoughts about game mechanics, concepts and so on, so they were more clear, instead of simply claiming "put XXX in game, it's good, and remove YYY, it's bad". Also I would like everyone to discuss latest topic in this thread, as i will post them one by one, weekly (or close to that). I will bring up different topics with time, this weeks topic will be:
1. Questing as way to gain experience and wealth. PC and companion itemisation.
First thing that comes on mind is random encounters and overall leveling process. What I didn't like in DA2 is that devs had to put in a lot of "fetch" quests (random item pickup and delivery without any story behind it), a lot of "random encounters" in night Kirkwall and that terrible battle design, where you start fighting 3 guys and soon more of them start popping up from nowhere. Let's take a closer look.
- Fetch quests: it's pretty simple here. Time dump, you pick up item during main/side quest, you have to run to some other zone and turn it in for some gold and xp. Pretty dull. These quests were put in to: increase walkthrough time (you spend most time on running from quest zone to spot A to turn in item #2, than to spot B to turn in item #2 and so on), to give player some exp to compensate lack of proper quests/exp sources.
- Random encounters: pretty much same purpose as fetch quests. You kill X amount of bandit groups in one district, get quest for killing leader, it's done. Almost no background, simply exp grinding. Purpose: same as previous. Prolong walkthrough time, give some exp and random loot.
- Overall encounter design: you could rarely meet something like that in DAO, where enemyes just pop out of thin air. Most of time you see 10 darkspawn - you kill 10 darkspawn. Same drill with bandits. Only exception were "wave survival" quests like Redcliff willage, some random encounters with waves of wolves. What actually is the point in such ill design, where 4 bandits turn into 20 spawning from nowhere? It's simple: to compensate lack of locations and overall shortage of exp sources. The thing is that we are supposed to get to level XX by, let's say, by the end of act 2. In DAO you could complete number of chantry board quests, some irregulars quests and mages collective. Also while travelling you'd get some random encounters and gain more exp. In DA2 devs didn't manage to put enough "good" content in, so they had to fill void with those exp dumpers I just described+this encounters. There are 2 ways to give player exp from combat: first we saw in DAO: put, let's say, 20 bandits in bigger zone and let player explore it killing bandits in process. It was completely new zone, but it was only one-time. The issue connected to this approach is that sooner or later you will run out of pre-made high-quality zones and you will not be able to level up any further, also it's a decent amount of work to craft such zones. In DA2 we saw different approach: why make big zone with 20 bandits if we can do a small one with 4 in it at a time? You kill 4, other 4 come, untill you kill same 20 bandits! It was probably a good idea for team, as it would have reduced time needed for each zone, as now zones could be more than twice smaller. But from game design view - it's ill solution. Overall, paired with some other stuff I will list later it creates completely different game experience.
Also I have to mention reused zones idea (though all of us alredy know and admit, that it was fail idea), which, no doubt, reduced time needed for development and amount of work, but it didn't worth it. It left naughty feeling of job not being done as it's supposed to be done.
This also brings up overall Leveling concept, but I will discuss it later, probably next week.
Now about wealth part. During walkthrough we kill a lot of stuff and find lots of chests, boxes, pots, etc., also we loot enemyes. Overall purpose for "ordinary" loot (one that can drop from any box/enemy/etc) is to supply player with:
a) decent items PC could use at current plot point
direct gold income. Gold drops from chests and corpses, pretty simplec) indirect gold income. We sell most of that normal loot, be it armor, weapons or just junk because we have better gear/we don't need them, but we need gold
That seems to be all, but there is one more item in list:
d) indirect high quality items supply. We buy those for gold we earned from vendors, be it equipment, or healing flasks, or something else. We get what we need for gold we earned, it's main gold dump in game.
Other gold dumps are minor compared to that one, they are: some quest options (like bribe someone, or sponsor something, etc.), crafting is indirect (indirect for DAO, as you can craft there for free) gold dump (you buy reagents in DAO or pay for craft in DA][).
So now it's pretty much clear with normal loot, but there is also another loot type: special/unique loot.
We get it from different sources:
a) quest rewards, most obvious source
b) bosses or not ordinary characters/creatures related or not to quests (good example - Juggernaut armor set, you get not as quest revard, you loot it durng the quest from Revenants)
c) special containers like chests, which are quest related or codex/conversation hinted, sometimes completely unhinted, but always at the same place, call it "static" loot (Legion of the Dead armor set is a good example).
So, the main purpose of this sort of loot is to supply player with superior gear (one that will be better than normal loot), which is not easy to obtain in most cases. This was done pretty good in DAO, and was ultimately failed in DA][. This brings up itemisation topic.
PC and companion itemisation.
Overall, it's the process of supplying player and his party with hi-end gear. I will start it this way: will analise, what was failed in DA][ (yes, again) and what was good about it in DAO. But first of all let's take a look at overall gear concept.
There are 3 gear quality levels, they are:
- junk gear
- ordinary gear
- rare gear
- superior gear
Items sets take a bit different position than these types, but mostly it's superior gear (and superior gear is mostly item sets).
So what are those types?
Junk gear: gear you get from normal drops, it doesn't have any attribute bonuses on it or anything else. Only armor, only fatigue. Why junk? most of time you will prefer gear with rune socket or attributes on it, because most of time attributes are more profitable than minor armor increase. This sort of armor is good only if you are naked and need atl something to wear.
Ordinary gear: only difference from junk gear is item level (that's how I got used to calling it, in DAO it was called tier), which is adequate to player level. This gear can be used by player over rare gear (will speak of it soon) if you are in desperate need of armor rating, and you can sacrifice some attributes in favour of armor boost.
Rare gear: same os ordinary, BUT with attributes/different bonuses on it, which are randomly (or not) generated. It's the gear you will be looking for most during leveling. It provides good protection and attributes, and it will be superior for you for some time (untill you gain 3-4 more levels and new rare gear will bear better stats).
All these 3 types can be united in one type: leveling gear. That's the gear you use while leveling, it doesn't have to look outstanding, it doesn't have to bear amusing bonuses, anyway you will sell it sooner or later.
Next type is supposed to be end-game type: superior gear. It is sort of gear that is desiged to be better than any other gear you can find, it got fixed (counterpart to randomly-generated) bonuses and armor values most of time. This sort of gear should have it's unique (or atleast rare) looks, it should look really cool/epic/whatever. Also this gear is not easy to obtain. First of all armor: most armor of this kind is united into armor sets: boots, gloves, chest and helm (may vary though), they look complete when weared together and provide further stat boost to character wearing them. Aslo some "non-set" pieces are present, most of time they have even better stats, but item sets beat them most of time. Non-sets are supposed to be some intermediate gear type between superior item set and rare gear (unless it's other than armor slot).
Next sub-type is "accessories": rings, belts, necklaces. Sets are rarely met here, though some of them are really awesome, but basically it's single items. their place in game - to replace rare once. They don't have random stats as well, they all have preset bonuses which are supposed to be profitable for players.
And finally weapons: there are from few to no weapon sets in both games, most of time it's just unique swords/maces/axes/bows/etc with their own codex entry, history, quest. They are designed as all other superior items, and so that you will not want to sell them to vendor at any point. Posessing such item almost always has a story behind it (true for some armor sets and accessories as well). Some of them may be even transfered into next games in series, as legendary weapons.
So basically superior is not only about looking good, and bearing a sweet hunch of attributes, but also about story behind those items, which makes them even more valuable.
Now a word on item sets: not all sets are superior quality, there are also some rare/ordinary sets in game. they are suposed to last some time and provide good boost to characters performance.
So now having gear types explained let's see what we have in both games.
I like how gear is handled in DAO overall. Almost every piece I find is usefull, for me or one of my companions. Also there is a number of well-made massive armor sets, and it's a good thing about DAO. Also there is a number of good weapons there, of different types. As warrior, I love how it is in DAO, as we got everything we'd want. Well, on second thought there could be wider choice of warrior based accessories with worthy stats.
I made some research and found out, that for rogues and mages situation is not as good as for warriors. Way smaller amount of light armor (which is best for rogues), and stats on it and set bonuses are pretty bad. Same for mages, they don't have any sets at all. That's a bad part about DAO. In DA2 it improved AND got worse at same time. Mages and rogues got their end game sets, BUT it were the only sets for end-game state, which is sad. No choice, you either use that set or use some junk/rare gear which is way weaker than set one. So basically it wasn't designed as an option among other good sets, it was just the only option (not counting going naked or in outdated gear). Overall compared to DAO situation with gear in DA2 got worse, we got way more random rare gear (which became really bad, because we don't need it for companions anymore and stats assigned on it became way worse than in DAO), and way less unique item sets for end-game (one set without DLC, DLC added one tanking set, and one more dps set for warriors for example, still not enough).
Conclusion.
So in DA3 I would like to see following things:
1) Rollback to old encounter design. No more enemyes popping out of thin air in same room unless you make a good pile of corpces there. Make zones big, spread enemy patroles and packs there. You see 5 guards, you kill 5 guards. Than you go seek others. Though some survival/siege events would be nice, but again, only when they fit in enviroment.
2) Overall money earning system didn't change a lot, though I'd suggest combining crafting system from DAO and DA2, so you could have a choice: go gather reagents on your own and craft for free or pay servants/merchants/others to gather reagents for you and pay fee. Also I'd suggest separating professions from combat skills, so you wouldn't have to choose between useful combat skill or profession. And yes, I'd suggest to stick with DAO professions approach, where companions and player learned professions instead of some crafters. Maybe combine those 2: craft at craftsman for fee (you don't need to have profession on your character or companions) or craft yourself (assuming you have that profession on one of your characters) for free. I would like to see what others think about it.
3) Trash "fetch" quests. Remove them completely. No explanation needed. Make some quests with plot instead.
4) Overall, I'd like to see from few to no dull time dumpers in game. I vouch for quests with plot, for actions with reasons, for no dull NPC killing like in korean mmorpg.
5) Better work on itemisation. Which includes: wider variety of armor sets for all classes, different high quality weapons and accessories, more useful rare items, don't make "signature" armor be worse than hi-end sets. Example: templar armor in DA2. It is hard to obtain, it looks pretty good, but it becomes completely useless as soon as you start getting champion's armor set. That's lame. In my vision, there should be a set of high quality templar armor for using it at end-game (and I mean full set, not only chest). It will have different stats, and they might not fit you as good as other set bonuses, but it must be on par with it. Templars are not a minor faction in DA universe, so I think they must have some signature high end armor set. There will be more thoughts on unique gear for templars, berserkers, reavers, blood mages, assasing, etc. later, this time I wanted just to bring up this topic briefly.
Would like to see you thoughts about this topic, and see you all next week, topic will be 2. Gaining experience. What is for leveling. Dynamics. Skills and specialisations.
Bioware team is welcome to post here as well: what they think, what they know of what I've alredy wrote, what will be done/what will not be done, what is good idea and what is not, their view on this things, etc.
Edit: added some formatting, improved readability
Modifié par NomadDC, 01 novembre 2012 - 05:01 .
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