29 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm thinking it might be interesting to have two companions who really hate each other.  I'm not talking about the detached impersonal hate of "mages ruined my life and here you are, a mage", but something more along the lines of "he killed my wife".  It's been done as a mutually exclusive thing where you could have one or the other but not both.  I'd like to see it done where you actually can recruit both and keep them both in the party and have interesting situations where you have to keep them from each other's throats.

[Face of Evil]

This idea can work, but only when there's extenuating circumstances. The hero might team up with the villain to escape an area filled with enemies that threaten them both.

Otherwise, they'll just murder each other when you're asleep.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 01 novembre 2012 - 08:50 .

[MichaelStuart]

It would be fun to watch companions get into a fight.

[Darth Death]

Why so vindictive? What about love & caring?

[Mystch3vi0us]

I love this idea though I have an idea in another thread I just posted (relationship development idea) that I would love for you to weigh in on. I think that these two concepts together would be great.

[BouncyFrag]

First thing I thought of.

[PsychoBlonde]

Face of Evil wrote...

This idea can work, but only when there's extenuating circumstances. The hero might team up with the villain to escape an area filled with enemies that threaten them both.

Just because they hate each other that doesn't mean that one of them is a hero and the other a villain.  They could both be really awesome guys.  (Or both be jerks.)

I mean, just imagine this situation:

Dude 1 (We'll call him Magius) is married to another mage, both are apostates.  HIs wife is in the midst of a complex spell when Dude 2 (we'll call him Templarus) shows up.  There's a fight.  In the scuffle, Magius's wife loses control of her spell and is possessed by a demon.  Magius manages to run Templarus off, but now his wife is an abomination.  Not knowing what else to do, he creates a spell to imprison his wife.  He could cure her, if he had enough Lyrium OR someone else who was willing to die so he could use blood magic to enter the fade.  Getting lyrium would mean leaving his wife here with Templarus running around loose for who knows how long, but finding someone to volunteer to die in a blood magic ritual would probably not happen either.  He'd do it himself, but that'd mean finding another mage able to perform the ritual.

Then Templarus shows back up and demands Magius surrender.  Magius doesn't really want to kill Templarus, plus there's a chance that with Templarus' help, Magius can contact some other mages or find some Lyrium to fix his wife.  Magius begs Templarus not to kill the abomination and instead to help in some way.  Templarus, not being a total jerk, reluctantly agrees.  He's not keen on this blood magic thing, though, nor is he willing to just leave this abomination here where it may figure out a way to get loose.  So he decides to allow Magius to seek aid at the nearest mage circle while Templarus stays here and guards the magic imprisoning the abomination.  Magius reaches the mage circle and convinces them to render assistance, but when he gets back to his wife, he finds that the magic wards failed and Templarus killed her in self-defense.  Magius goes berserk and tries to kill Templarus, but is restrained by the other mages who came with him to help.

Those two men both acted honorably with the best of intentions, but Templarus still killed Magius's wife and Magius still tried to kill Templarus.  They could quite easily both hate each other with the white-hot heat of 10,000 suns, yet not constantly be trying to murder each other and both be willing to join your Saving the World tour.

[Maclimes]

How long would they actually stay your companion, however? Eventually, one of them would force you to choose.

As "Darth Death" mentioned, why not loving instead? (That was a REALLY weird sentence).

I'd like to see something like Aveline and Donnic, both as party members. Or even Bethany and Carver for more than 5 minutes. Some sort of pre-established positive relationship.

[TheJediSaint]

Maclimes wrote...

How long would they actually stay your companion, however? Eventually, one of them would force you to choose.

As "Darth Death" mentioned, why not loving instead? (That was a REALLY weird sentence).

I'd like to see something like Aveline and Donnic, both as party members. Or even Bethany and Carver for more than 5 minutes. Some sort of pre-established positive relationship.

So like Khalid and Jaheria from Baldur's Gate?

[Face of Evil]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Dude 1 (We'll call him Magius) is married to another mage, both are apostates.  HIs wife is in the midst of a complex spell when Dude 2 (we'll call him Templarus) shows up.  There's a fight.  In the scuffle, Magius's wife loses control of her spell and is possessed by a demon.  Magius manages to run Templarus off, but now his wife is an abomination.  Not knowing what else to do, he creates a spell to imprison his wife.  He could cure her, if he had enough Lyrium OR someone else who was willing to die so he could use blood magic to enter the fade.  Getting lyrium would mean leaving his wife here with Templarus running around loose for who knows how long, but finding someone to volunteer to die in a blood magic ritual would probably not happen either.  He'd do it himself, but that'd mean finding another mage able to perform the ritual.

Then Templarus shows back up and demands Magius surrender.  Magius doesn't really want to kill Templarus, plus there's a chance that with Templarus' help, Magius can contact some other mages or find some Lyrium to fix his wife.  Magius begs Templarus not to kill the abomination and instead to help in some way.  Templarus, not being a total jerk, reluctantly agrees.  He's not keen on this blood magic thing, though, nor is he willing to just leave this abomination here where it may figure out a way to get loose.  So he decides to allow Magius to seek aid at the nearest mage circle while Templarus stays here and guards the magic imprisoning the abomination.  Magius reaches the mage circle and convinces them to render assistance, but when he gets back to his wife, he finds that the magic wards failed and Templarus killed her in self-defense.  Magius goes berserk and tries to kill Templarus, but is restrained by the other mages who came with him to help.

Magius is clearly the villain here. He should have submitted to the will of the Chantry.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 01 novembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Maclimes]

TheJediSaint wrote...

So like Khalid and Jaheria from Baldur's Gate?

Yes. But without the oft-used trope of killing off one-half of the equation. (Like Aveline and Wesley, or Bethany and Carver).

[Mystch3vi0us]

I think the idea isn't to exclude a positive loving relationship but rather to have a relationship that makes the player choose between characters. They can both be horrible people they can both be great people (maybe they are both perusing the same guy/girl in the party.) And that the only way to maintain them in the party is to do the "Impossible" persuasion/intimidation, where it can only be done with a super high talky skill.

[Face of Evil]

There's no point in trying to work with someone who will eagerly leave you to die or stab you in the back at an opportune moment. This is how you deal with non-team players.

[Wulfram]

I tend to like my party to be all "happy families", personally. The sense of family in my core group of Aveline/Merrill/Varric/Isabela is probably why I like the DA2 party a lot.

I think it would take very good writing for me to not just end up thoroughly tired of the both of them. Maybe if they were entertainingly witty about their hate, like Morrigan and Alistair.

[Maclimes]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

I think the idea isn't to exclude a positive loving relationship but rather to have a relationship that makes the player choose between characters. They can both be horrible people they can both be great people (maybe they are both perusing the same guy/girl in the party.) And that the only way to maintain them in the party is to do the "Impossible" persuasion/intimidation, where it can only be done with a super high talky skill.

Like in ME2 with Tali and Legion, or Miranda and Jack?

[TheJediSaint]

I think that it's important that companions have relationships between each other. Which is something I think Dragon Age 2 did well.

You have the vitriolic friendship between Isabela and Aveline. The big sister/little sister dynamic between Merrill and Isabella. And Varric being everyone's bro.

You also had less friendly relationships between Merrill and Anders, and between Fernris and Anders. So I would conclude by saying that the residents of the Bioware Writers Pit have got this in hand.

[BouncyFrag]

Maclimes wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

I think the idea isn't to exclude a positive loving relationship but rather to have a relationship that makes the player choose between characters. They can both be horrible people they can both be great people (maybe they are both perusing the same guy/girl in the party.) And that the only way to maintain them in the party is to do the "Impossible" persuasion/intimidation, where it can only be done with a super high talky skill.

Like in ME2 with Tali and Legion, or Miranda and Jack?

Taking Legion on Tali's loyalty mission is something that everyone should do at least once. I'd be welcome something like this in DA3. There are more than enough factions rife with potential material to use such as something with Loghain and the Orlesians, even though most people don't have Loghain still living.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maclimes wrote...

How long would they actually stay your companion, however? Eventually, one of them would force you to choose.

Have you ever had a coworker you really couldn't stand?  (I sure have.)  Ever gone up to your boss and said, "I can't take this any more, it's him or me!"  No?  Maybe because your job was more important to you than the other guy?  (That, and anyone delivering an ultimatum like that at work can be sure that the response would be "aww, too bad, cya!").

People who really detest each other work together all the time.  Heck, they had it in NwN2 with Bishop and Casavir, and you could actually maintain fairly friendly relations with both of them.  It would certainly be a complex dynamic--sometimes you might do well to take both of them with you as circumstances would tend to drive them toward reconciliation.  Sometimes, it might be better to only take one of them along with you to avoid a nasty in-party fight at the worst possible moment. 

I think it would be especially interesting because the PC might find that they are better off acting as a neutral third party rather than trying to Friend one guy and Rivalry the other.  It would add a further layer of complexity.  If you remain neutral and keep your relationship professional, maybe the dislike simmers down but is always there.  If you Friend one and Rivalry the other, one may leave or force you to kill him.  If you Friend both of them, maybe they direct their ire outwards and become overly competitive with each other, If you Rivalry both of them, maybe they reconcile because they find they both dislike you more.

[Maclimes]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

How long would they actually stay your companion, however? Eventually, one of them would force you to choose.

Have you ever had a coworker you really couldn't stand?  (I sure have.)  Ever gone up to your boss and said, "I can't take this any more, it's him or me!"  No?  Maybe because your job was more important to you than the other guy?  (That, and anyone delivering an ultimatum like that at work can be sure that the response would be "aww, too bad, cya!").

People who really detest each other work together all the time.  Heck, they had it in NwN2 with Bishop and Casavir, and you could actually maintain fairly friendly relations with both of them.  It would certainly be a complex dynamic--sometimes you might do well to take both of them with you as circumstances would tend to drive them toward reconciliation.  Sometimes, it might be better to only take one of them along with you to avoid a nasty in-party fight at the worst possible moment. 

I think it would be especially interesting because the PC might find that they are better off acting as a neutral third party rather than trying to Friend one guy and Rivalry the other.  It would add a further layer of complexity.  If you remain neutral and keep your relationship professional, maybe the dislike simmers down but is always there.  If you Friend one and Rivalry the other, one may leave or force you to kill him.  If you Friend both of them, maybe they direct their ire outwards and become overly competitive with each other, If you Rivalry both of them, maybe they reconcile because they find they both dislike you more.

None of my coworkers ever killed my wife.

[Realmzmaster]

This idea was done in the BG series. Certain of your companions would actually come to blows and could kill each other or leave the party if another companion was in the party or even recruited. Also certain companions came as a duo. If one left the other left. The problem with this is that certain party makeups could never happen. Example: Edwin in BG1 wanted Dynaheir dead. In fact he offers his services to the party if they kill Dynaheir. Minsc would have to be in the party with Dynaheir (They are a duo). That is just one example in the BG series.

So Bioware has done these kinds of relationships in their games before. Some gamers liked it other hated it because of the inability to make certain matchups in party structure.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 01 novembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[Bernhardtbr]

Yeah and Edwin and Minsc could ****slap each other in BG 2.

Awesome idea for party interaction, +100 for this to be implemented if possible.

[dragonflight288]

www.youtube.com/watch

This is what I first thought of when I read the title.

[iSignIn]

You have Anders + Sebastian. One killed the other's mother (figure).

And Loghain + Alistair. One killed the other's father (figure).

But this kind of feud cannot happen too early in the game (in both the examples above it happens near end game), because otherwise a lot of resources will be wasted on whichever party member who's forced to leave/die.

Modifié par iSignIn, 02 novembre 2012 - 02:02 .

[Wrathion]

iSignIn wrote...

You have Anders + Sebastian. One killed the other's mother (figure).

And Loghain + Alistair. One killed the other's father (figure).

But this kind of feud cannot happen too early in the game (in both the examples above it happens near end game), because otherwise a lot of resources will be wasted on whichever party member who's forced to leave/die.

One of them IS end game. 

And neither of your example are companions. Sebastian LEAVES you if you don't kill Anders, Alistair leaves you if you don't kill Loghain. This only works if two companions are antagonistic towards each other while they're in their your group.

[iSignIn]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

And neither of your example are companions. Sebastian LEAVES you if you don't kill Anders, Alistair leaves you if you don't kill Loghain. This only works if two companions are antagonistic towards each other while they're in their your group.

But if two companions can both stay in your group without killing each other, they apparently don't hate or antagonize each other enough.

Modifié par iSignIn, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:48 .