157 réponses à ce sujet

[Milan92]

Skelter192 wrote...

Was that so hard? Took me all of 1 minute to do that I so wasted a precious amount of my life doing that. 

Instead of acting so difficult you could have just explained to me right at the beginning who Chris was since I simply asked a question. Instead you decided to act as if not knowing who he is is a world disaster.

Modifié par Milan92, 04 novembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Squiggles1334]

BioWare, please make next Mass Effect game have a Geth character fully romanceable for both sexes (I play gender-fluid Shepard), I have some fanfics and fanart I've been working on if you need some inspiration for this crucial undertaking

[ObserverStatus]

Milan92 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Milan92 wrote...
And who the freck is Chris Avellone?

This makes me a little sad. He has worked on some of the best rpgs ever.

Excuse me for having a life outside of RPG's and all those things 

Yeah, I hear ya.  I like RPGs and all just fine, but I still gotta have my survival horror, shooter, and RTS games.

Modifié par bobobo878, 04 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[Persephone]

Skelter192 wrote...


How is that different from +100 friendship seeing me in my tent tonight?

Seriously? You need an explanation re: the difference between romancing Alistair or Morrigan versus how romance in the Fable series works? Honestly?

<_<

Modifié par Persephone, 05 novembre 2012 - 12:14 .

[Roflbox]

Persephone wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...


How is that different from +100 friendship seeing me in my tent tonight?

Seriously? You need an explanation re: the difference between romancing Alistair or Morrigan versus how romance in the Fable series works? Honestly?

<_<

You do to me cause I remember giving gifts is more than enough to win a night of sex in Origins. 

Milan92 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Was that so hard? Took me all of 1 minute to do that I so wasted a precious amount of my life doing that. 

Instead of acting so difficult you could have just explained to me right at the beginning who Chris was since I simply asked a question. Instead you decided to act as if not knowing who he is is a world disaster.

It looked like you were trying to be difficult to begin with.

Modifié par Roflbox, 05 novembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Mr.House]

Roflbox wrote...

You do to me cause I remember giving gifts is more than enough to win a night of sex in Origins. 

I remember never giving any gifts to Leliana except for the nug and flower that also had new dialog with it. Or is giving people gifts while also getting a whole new conversation bad now, even if said gifts are given after "winning a night of sex"

Modifié par Mr.House, 05 novembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

It seems Crustybot's whole "Romances = Lyrium" idea is way too close to the truth.

[Fishy]

Milan92 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Was that so hard? Took me all of 1 minute to do that I so wasted a precious amount of my life doing that. 

Instead of acting so difficult you could have just explained to me right at the beginning who Chris was since I simply asked a question. Instead you decided to act as if not knowing who he is is a world disaster.

Before opening a thread named about somebody you don't know anything about .. You should have taken those precious minutes of your life and look it up ?

Hell actually I bet you did not even open the link of the OP. Which said in the frigging tittle who Avelonne is.. You're like they said .. obnoxious and borderline trolling.

[Milan92]

Suprez30 wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Was that so hard? Took me all of 1 minute to do that I so wasted a precious amount of my life doing that. 

Instead of acting so difficult you could have just explained to me right at the beginning who Chris was since I simply asked a question. Instead you decided to act as if not knowing who he is is a world disaster.

Before opening a thread named about somebody you don't know anything about .. You should have taken those precious minutes of your life and look it up ?

Hell actually I bet you did not even open the link of the OP. Which said in the frigging tittle who Avelonne is.. You're like they said .. obnoxious and borderline trolling.

I'm sure your surprised to know then that it wasn't intended to troll. Simply to ask. But it seems that is even too much here on the bsn.

[Fishy]

I actually just think you lacked a bit of tact and graciousness. On the subject. Personnaly I enjoy romance. Being a romantic myself it's hard to resist. But I agree that a lot of romance in game are just very shallow (geez I enjoy this word). Morrigan was a great romance. My biggest grip though it's most of us who romance just end up meta gaming it. In real life you can't meta game your love interest lol. Or can you ?

[adneate]

There's some truth in romances getting very stale yet at the same time them also having the potential to be very interesting. I think the best group of them was probably in Dragon Age: Origins all of them having a unique character, path and overall feel that enriched the characters in question, altered their reaction to events without detracting from the friendship path they each had. On the other hand flash forward to it's sequel and you have 4 incredibly boring romances that play out pretty much exactly how you think they would. As if a logic based computer program made them by analyzing every BioWare videogame romance sub-plot ever made to create the most bland and mildly agreeable ones ever produced.

All those little ideas he threw out were really compelling subjects for a game far more worthy of exploration than a cliched love story with nothing new to offer. That being said the same guy who thought all that stuff could probably have made a really unique and interesting "romance" I mean they did float the idea around for New Vegas's Cass who was a jaded functioning alcoholic with a temper problem and a foul mouth. So there's some potential in the total druken insanity aspect at the very least, where love is a bottle of whiskey and a shotgun to rob people to get more whiskey.

Edit: Oh and on the subject of "Gifting to Love" that's more of an abuse of a gameplay mechanic, like saying the shooting mechanics in a game are total garbage because you can circle strafe enemies to death which makes every encounter unrealistic and easy. Nobody is forcing you to give Leliana all the dog bones to offset the time you threatened to punch a priest in the face and no sane person on the staff at the time would think that was how things were going to go down.

Modifié par adneate, 05 novembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[wsandista]

ReconTeam wrote...

It seems Crustybot's whole "Romances = Lyrium" idea is way too close to the truth.

It is the truth.

You know they've gotten out of hand when you see serious discussions on what one characters sweat smells like, how one character would have no need of contraceptives, the rampant amount of fanfic that pretty much focuses on two characters having secks, and the sheer amount of fanart that generally depicts sex with NPCs.

Not that romance in games is bad at all. It is just the Bioware romances that feature a character with the personality of a cardboard cutout that will have secks with the PC no matter what. That is gutwrenchingly awful.

Modifié par wsandista, 05 novembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[Brockololly]

I think the problem is that most game romances are bad. Most games handle character development poorly. And in most BioWare games (recent ones at least), romances end up being an incredibly formulaic "Talk to this person a handful of times and they magically fall in love with you no matter what and then have end of the world sex before the final battle." And thats not even getting to the creepy as hell puppet sex scenes.

I liked BioWare romances most in Baldur's Gate 2 where they were actually pretty involved and not just a cake walk. Want to romance Viconia as an elf? You can't! Because she doesn't care for that elves! Jaheira's romance was a huge quest line in itself that had tons of character development that went beyond sex.

So if Avellone is that dumb to romances, then sure, I wouldn't want him writing one. But I'd prefer they be in Project Eternity in some way but as another means of character development and reactivity towards the player character. Just as much as possibly becoming friends with someone or enemies with someone should be a possibility, so should falling in love. But then they could have interesting plays on romance that go beyond where BioWare takes them- have the loved one get killed off at some mandatory point and have the player character grieve and have that reacted to in game; hell, the whole soul aspect of Project Eternity could lead to some interesting questions about love and romance.

[wsandista]

Brockololly wrote...

I think the problem is that most game romances are bad. Most games handle character development poorly. And in most BioWare games (recent ones at least), romances end up being an incredibly formulaic "Talk to this person a handful of times and they magically fall in love with you no matter what and then have end of the world sex before the final battle." And thats not even getting to the creepy as hell puppet sex scenes.

I liked BioWare romances most in Baldur's Gate 2 where they were actually pretty involved and not just a cake walk. Want to romance Viconia as an elf? You can't! Because she doesn't care for that elves! Jaheira's romance was a huge quest line in itself that had tons of character development that went beyond sex.

So if Avellone is that dumb to romances, then sure, I wouldn't want him writing one. But I'd prefer they be in Project Eternity in some way but as another means of character development and reactivity towards the player character. Just as much as possibly becoming friends with someone or enemies with someone should be a possibility, so should falling in love. But then they could have interesting plays on romance that go beyond where BioWare takes them- have the loved one get killed off at some mandatory point and have the player character grieve and have that reacted to in game; hell, the whole soul aspect of Project Eternity could lead to some interesting questions about love and romance.

It is quite ridiculous how much I agree with this post.

In particular I think the soul mechanic will be interesting to explore.

[Urgon]

Brockololly wrote...

I think the problem is that most game romances are bad. Most games handle character development poorly. And in most BioWare games (recent ones at least), romances end up being an incredibly formulaic "Talk to this person a handful of times and they magically fall in love with you no matter what and then have end of the world sex before the final battle." And thats not even getting to the creepy as hell puppet sex scenes.

I liked BioWare romances most in Baldur's Gate 2 where they were actually pretty involved and not just a cake walk. Want to romance Viconia as an elf? You can't! Because she doesn't care for that elves! Jaheira's romance was a huge quest line in itself that had tons of character development that went beyond sex.

So if Avellone is that dumb to romances, then sure, I wouldn't want him writing one. But I'd prefer they be in Project Eternity in some way but as another means of character development and reactivity towards the player character. Just as much as possibly becoming friends with someone or enemies with someone should be a possibility, so should falling in love. But then they could have interesting plays on romance that go beyond where BioWare takes them- have the loved one get killed off at some mandatory point and have the player character grieve and have that reacted to in game; hell, the whole soul aspect of Project Eternity could lead to some interesting questions about love and romance.

Have you played Planescape Torment and Mask of the Betrayer? Avellone can wright romances, he just prefers tragic or twisted ones and wants them to fit with the story

Modifié par Urgon, 05 novembre 2012 - 02:15 .

[Addai]

Filament wrote...
Well ok, he's probably joking, yeah.

I don't have a problem with him wanting to explore those dark and twisted corners of the mind, really. It's just, I dunno, when he explains the lair of the sociopath and all the twisted facsimiles of love... maybe a little too twisted for me. Maybe just not my cup of tea.

But we'll see.

I have to say, I wasn't sure about his style, either, until I saw how FNV came together.  John Gonzalez and Josh Sawyer get credit too, but once I was familiar with it I loved their storytelling style.  Vive la difference, right?  Not everyone has to be Bioware.

[someguy1231]

I completely agree with Avellone. Romance and video games just don't mix. All the romances Bioware has done just feel like shallow multiple-choice tests with a cheesy cutscene of dry-humping as a reward. I'm sure I'll be accused of video game blasphemy for saying this, but romance in video games works best when it's NOT in the hands of the player. In other words, make it a standard part of the narrative, and then it can work. Examples of this done well include Haytham Kenway and Zio in Assassin's Creed 3, and John and Abigail Marston in Red Dead Redemption.

[Squiggles1334]

If Project Eternity is going to be as dark and bleak as some of Mr. Avellone's past writing works, then I hope whatever romance plots might be in the game will be depressing and tragic. No happy endings for anybody. I want the internet to become a blighted field of broken nerd hearts piled to the sky. I hope he sits upon a throne made out of them.

[jaza]

Who honestly gives a **** about romances? It's the gameplay and story that matter, not pixelated fetish porn.

People who honestly dismiss a game because of a lack of romance need to get psychological help.

[Centauri2002]

jaza wrote...

Who honestly gives a **** about romances? It's the gameplay and story that matter, not pixelated fetish porn.

People who honestly dismiss a game because of a lack of romance need to get psychological help.

Believe it or not, romance should be part of the story. And I'm not talking the soft porn visuals here. Sex does not equal romance. I mean a slow building up of character interaction and interplay. Where would a story be without interaction between characters? Whether that would be a blossoming friendship, a loyal alliance between two people caught up in a terrifying situation, an embroiled relationship between enemies, or a deep romance. They all serve to enrich a story, if used correctly. They shouldn't be the sole focus of a story, in my opinion, but they should weave effortlessly into it and make you care about them.

Modifié par centauri2002, 05 novembre 2012 - 12:10 .

[GodWood]

mousestalker wrote...
Mr. Avellone's statement was a disappointment. Were I aware of his sentiments regarding romance prior to the Kickstarter campaign, I would have made certain decisions differently.

Romance is not only part of life, it's an adventure. Part of the reason we are all here are the mysterious workings of romance in our ancestors' lives.

The net result is that I am likely to not buy the game at release and may never buy. Despite coming out on Linux, which is wicked cool, it doesn't sound like much more than a smash 'n bash.

I'll post what Avelone said:

So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance.
 
Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise.

Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after.

Now because you can't **** someone up the arse all this translates to is "smash 'n bash"?

...Really?

[Milan92]

GodWood wrote...

mousestalker wrote...
Mr. Avellone's statement was a disappointment. Were I aware of his sentiments regarding romance prior to the Kickstarter campaign, I would have made certain decisions differently.

Romance is not only part of life, it's an adventure. Part of the reason we are all here are the mysterious workings of romance in our ancestors' lives.

The net result is that I am likely to not buy the game at release and may never buy. Despite coming out on Linux, which is wicked cool, it doesn't sound like much more than a smash 'n bash.

I'll post what Avelone said:

So if I were to implement a romance subplot in Eternity - I wouldn’t. I’d examine interpersonal relationships from another angle and I wouldn’t confine it to love and romance.
 
Maybe I’d explore it after a “loving” relationship crashed and burned, and one or both was killed in the aftermath enough for them to see if it had really been worth it spending the last few years of their physical existence chained to each other in a dance of human misery and/or a plateau of soul-killing compromise.

Or maybe I’d explore a veteran’s love affair with his craft of murder and allowing souls to be freed to travel beyond their bleeding shell, or a Cipher’s obsession with plucking the emotions of deep-rooted souls to try and see what makes people attracted to each other beyond their baser instincts and discovers love... specifically, his love of manipulating others. You could build an entire dungeon and quest where he devotes himself to replicating facsimiles of love, reducer a Higher Love to a baser thing and using NPCs he encounters as puppets for his experimentations, turning something supposedly beautiful into something filthy, mechanical, but surrounded by blank-eyed soul-twisted drones echoing all the hollow Disney-like platitudes and fairy tale existence where everyone lives happily ever after.

Now because you can't **** someone up the arse all this translates to is "smash 'n bash"?

...Really?

Not everyone is a bootlicking Avellone fan. FYI

Modifié par Milan92, 05 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[Chromie]

Milan92 wrote...
Not everyone is a bootlicking Avellone fan. FYI

He didn't say anything about being a fan.

[Seagloom]

tl;dr - There is room for all tastes out there, so let the man do what he wants.

Long version...

This thread compelled me to bore my way out from under the earth, like a worm finding its way to freshly wet concrete on a rainy day.

For the longest time I supported the idea of seeing fewer romances in RPGs. I was dissatisfied by most of BioWare's offerings. Then I recently reexamined my ideas as I tend to do when boredom hits. I thought about why I held them, and considered how much they were influenced by fellow nerds. After a time I came to realize the obvious: video games are rarely high art; nor should they always need to be.

I love reading. I consume novels as often as I can afford them. Most of them, if held to any objective literary standard, are not genre defining. They are not amazing; and in fact rather predictable often to the point of risking triteness.

Movies I watch run the gamut from braindead comedy or by-the-numbers romance to art house films. The vast majority of movies are not special, clever, thought provoking, and certainly not memorable. Most films fail at exploring their own themes, if they set out to in the first place.

Video games are not so different. I thought back to romances in past BioWare games I enjoyed. The first that sprang to mind was Silk Fox. I loved the banter between her and my character--particularly when playing Closed Fist. I enjoyed the idea of two badass women fighting off an army of assassins and ghosts. I appreciated that she was even an option for my character--especially after the off putting hero worship romance with Juhani in KotOR. The happy ending, regardless of my character's moral slant, was the cherry on the sundae. Jade Empire remains one of my favorite BioWare games. Yet at no point did I consider any of the Silk Fox romance "deep". What it was, was entertaining as f***.

Literary classics can be hard to read, and quite frankly, not always very entertaining. Yes, they are important as building blocks that gave birth to conventions and concepts we still see today. However, that does not make every tome that failed to accomplish the same since worthless trash.

What matters to me when playing a game is whether or not I'm having fun. If a romance is written decently enough that it does not detract from everything else, I will come away from it satisfied. If it enhances other aspects of the game, all the better. In the case of Jade Empire and Silk Fox, I felt it did just that. Yet I would not consider anything about that romance realistic. It was well executed for what it was, provoked a positive emotional response, and claimed a spot in the tangle of thorny brambles I call my memories.

It is not unlike the growing presence of illusion of choice in CRPGs these last fourteen years. Consciously, I am aware my choices are extremely finite. There are only so many rails the story can go down. A full range of choices is impossible. At times that means watching my character say or do things I think are foolish or inappropriate in a given situation. Things that I often find ridiculously unrealistic. If the game manages to make me forget those limitations long enough for me to immerse myself in its world and story, I consider that a success. If I stop to rip apart every detail during play, something has gone terribly wrong with the writing.

Romance is identical in that way. Striving for realism is well and good, but what matters more is whether I buy into it enough to have a good time. Because let's face it: if we picked apart the stories and character interactions of every game in the last ten years with an aim toward how well they achieved a high standard of realism, the vast majority would fall to pieces pretty damn quick in most respects--not merely romantic subplots.

BioWare can keep doing what it's doing as far as I'm concerned. Chris Avellone can do the same. I wouldn't look to a Stephen King novel for a saccharine fairy tale romance. Nor would I read a Mercedes Lackey book expecting grimdark fantasy themes.

Likewise I don't expect a love story of any conventional stripe from Chris Avellone.

I prefer a writer to go with their strengths. Exploring and improving on weaknesses in their art is well and good, but no one expects perfection in all categories from all authors.

RPGs are a massive genre with increasingly fluid defining criteria every year. There is room for all kinds of stories and approaches to those tales. No need for every developer to aim for the same goals in every project. All that will do is march the genre toward stagnation.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 novembre 2012 - 04:53 .