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[robertthebard]

master-fluff wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

 And why speak up in an alistair hate thread if you're only speaking from your RP perspective?

I didn't realise only those who have played the game multiple times or are into serious metagaming were allowed to post an opinion.  My bad.  Feel free to set me on ignore.
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I guess the better question is if you go to a gay bar as a hetero sexual looking for a date.  You can expect to come into an "I hate xxxx" thread and find hate.  Do you think you're going to change somebody's mind?  I'm pretty dedicated, and it's going to take a lot to make me change my mind about how Alistair acts, since I've seen him act in every possible way in my playthroughs.  I don't have one finish, but several, and Loghain hasn't been spared in al of them, but that doesn't affect how I feel about Alistair.

Loghain is a right bastard, and I have never claimed otherwise.  However, Alistair is more than capable of being the same.  Call him on his lie once, and you'll come to understand what I mean.  Or, and this is perfectly legitimate, you can not do that, and continue to have the man of your dreams.  However, pretending that people that have experienced his "dark side" are just making things up, or metagaming, isn't quite right.  As I've said, his betrayal at the Landsmeet is such a small part of why I dislike him as a person, it's hardly worth mentioning, my postion starts in the Wilds, at Flemeth's hut, and continues throughout the game.

[IPerrin]

Ariella wrote...

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

[Eruanna Guerrein]

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

And this is where I have problems. Alistair's initial reaction makes sense to me. His totally having nothing more to do with fighting the blight and my lack of options to try to talk to him after or for him to want to talk to me after (even if only to tell me how f'd in the head he thinks I am and how betrayed he feels) is entirely unrealistic to me. I even see Riordan wanting to talk to him and explain afterwards, especially given how important it is to him to have more GWs in Ferelden, one of his own reasons for suggesting Loghain in the first place. Maybe he couldn't forgive my PC who didn't know about the GW sacrifice but he would likely stay with the GWs to see it through and ensure Loghain's life is indeed lost.

But then... who would take Morrigan up on her offer if those options were available?

[errant_knight]

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

I think Loghain would always be a threat. He expresses no regret or capitulation even after the Landsmeet votes against him. He's going to fight his way out until he agrees to settle it as a matter of honor. He remains obsessed by Orleis and contemptuous of the Grey Wardens.

Anora will also always be a threat, but since she's committed no crime other than making it clear that she will continue to try and seize the throne, Alistair's solution in the most palatable, if somewhat risky. Her unwillingness to swear fealty once Alistair has been chosen shows her true colors, though. If the good of Fereldan was truly her motivation, she'd accept the decision to see Fereldan united behind the king. Instead, she'd rather continue a civil war and try and take the throne. I see her as actually being worse than her father, if you take his crimes out of the picture, as she is driven by personal ambition.

[IPerrin]

errant_knight wrote...

I think Loghain would always be a threat. He expresses no regret or capitulation even after the Landsmeet votes against him. He's going to fight his way out until he agrees to settle it as a matter of honor. He remains obsessed by Orleis and contemptuous of the Grey Wardens.

Anora will also always be a threat, but since she's committed no crime other than making it clear that she will continue to try and seize the throne, Alistair's solution in the most palatable, if somewhat risky. Her unwillingness to swear fealty once Alistair has been chosen shows her true colors, though. If the good of Fereldan was truly her motivation, she'd accept the decision to see Fereldan united behind the king. Instead, she'd rather continue a civil war and try and take the throne. I see her as actually being worse than her father, if you take his crimes out of the picture, as she is driven by personal ambition.

    You make alot of metagame assumptions, and they have nothing to do with the reasons to hate Alistair.  Shouldn't you at least consider arranging a marrige between Alistair and Anora if you're realy only in it for the good of ferelden?  Why would Alistair agree to this plan and then sabotage it at the landsmeet by killing her father?  Still these issues only scratch the surface of all the problems I have with Alistair.

[Default137]

a1021 wrote...

harrowmont and bhelen are both bad kings. bhelen dissolves the assembly, the last little bit of democracy in orzammar. he is practically a dictator, no matter how many other reforms he makes... in my first playthrough i really hoped that i could just make branka the queen. it's unfortunate that you can't...

So wait.

Rather then the Benevolent Dictator, or the Status Quo Hero, you'd rather have the Sociopathic, Pyschotic Murderer?

>_>

I always end up supporting Bhelen with my Dwarven Noble, he has some funny lines.

[Kohaku]

Default137 wrote...

a1021 wrote...

harrowmont and bhelen are both bad kings. bhelen dissolves the assembly, the last little bit of democracy in orzammar. he is practically a dictator, no matter how many other reforms he makes... in my first playthrough i really hoped that i could just make branka the queen. it's unfortunate that you can't...

So wait.

Rather then the Benevolent Dictator, or the Status Quo Hero, you'd rather have the Sociopathic, Pyschotic Murderer?

>_>

I always end up supporting Bhelen with my Dwarven Noble, he has some funny lines.

Branka is totally a nutter. I also thought there was a way to make her the choice outside of these two.  However, you're probably right. The Dwarfs would probably end up worse. Golems or Dark Spawn food...

[IPerrin]

Default137 wrote...

a1021 wrote...

harrowmont and bhelen are both bad kings. bhelen dissolves the assembly, the last little bit of democracy in orzammar. he is practically a dictator, no matter how many other reforms he makes... in my first playthrough i really hoped that i could just make branka the queen. it's unfortunate that you can't...

So wait.

Rather then the Benevolent Dictator, or the Status Quo Hero, you'd rather have the Sociopathic, Pyschotic Murderer?

>_>

I always end up supporting Bhelen with my Dwarven Noble, he has some funny lines.

  Wouldn't it have been interesting if you could have made Jarvia Queen?

[Default137]

IPerrin wrote...

Default137 wrote...

a1021 wrote...

harrowmont and bhelen are both bad kings. bhelen dissolves the assembly, the last little bit of democracy in orzammar. he is practically a dictator, no matter how many other reforms he makes... in my first playthrough i really hoped that i could just make branka the queen. it's unfortunate that you can't...

So wait.

Rather then the Benevolent Dictator, or the Status Quo Hero, you'd rather have the Sociopathic, Pyschotic Murderer?

>_>

I always end up supporting Bhelen with my Dwarven Noble, he has some funny lines.

  Wouldn't it have been interesting if you could have made Jarvia Queen?

If I could honestly choose who I made King/Queen of the Dwarves, it would probably be Sandal, if I couldn't choose him, it would be that Dwarf whose wall I exploded while exploring, I owe him that at least, both would probably make pretty good rulers I think.

I'm I think one of the few who chose Bhelen on their first go through, even as a Dwarven Noble, just because Harrowmount sounded like he couldn't lead squat, especially with how his Warriors treated him, and was pleasently suprised when I was actually right, and Bhelen did end up being quite the good leader for the Dwarves.

[melkathi]

Sabriana wrote...

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Measuring the loss in the lives of the player and various npcs might not really be feasable. All the npcs are damaged goods after all (except for dog).
But the problem with Alistair's behaviour at the Landsmeet is not how little in control of his emotions he is, the problem is that he betrays everything he himself would proclaim he stood for. He does not act like a man in pain and sorrow but like a spoiled child who didn't get his way. Throughout the game he will go on and on about how wonderful it is to be a Grey Warden, how nothing is as important as putting an end to the Blight (which is true even). If you are a non-human noble female char and have a relationship with him, when he becomes king, he'll break up with you going on about how duty is much more important than personal feelings and to him, duty is extremely important. But if he doesn't get what he wants, then the thing he himself had called the most important thing in his life, suddenly can be forgotten.
Alistair is the noble knight in shining armour as long as it doesn't really contradict his wants. The moment it does, he turns into Cartman from Southpark.
"You will let the darkspawn kill Loghain insteal of letting me do it?
Screw you Blight  ...I'm going home!"

[errant_knight]

IPerrin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I think Loghain would always be a threat. He expresses no regret or capitulation even after the Landsmeet votes against him. He's going to fight his way out until he agrees to settle it as a matter of honor. He remains obsessed by Orleis and contemptuous of the Grey Wardens.

Anora will also always be a threat, but since she's committed no crime other than making it clear that she will continue to try and seize the throne, Alistair's solution in the most palatable, if somewhat risky. Her unwillingness to swear fealty once Alistair has been chosen shows her true colors, though. If the good of Fereldan was truly her motivation, she'd accept the decision to see Fereldan united behind the king. Instead, she'd rather continue a civil war and try and take the throne. I see her as actually being worse than her father, if you take his crimes out of the picture, as she is driven by personal ambition.

    You make alot of metagame assumptions, and they have nothing to do with the reasons to hate Alistair.  Shouldn't you at least consider arranging a marrige between Alistair and Anora if you're realy only in it for the good of ferelden?  Why would Alistair agree to this plan and then sabotage it at the landsmeet by killing her father?  Still these issues only scratch the surface of all the problems I have with Alistair.

Heh, I wasn't talking about reasons to hate Alistair, as I see none. I was responding to a statement about Loghain that I don't believe. I also didn't say I, as my character, was only in it for the good of Fereldan, I said that Anora lied when she said she was.

[Default137]

melkathi wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Measuring the loss in the lives of the player and various npcs might not really be feasable. All the npcs are damaged goods after all (except for dog).
But the problem with Alistair's behaviour at the Landsmeet is not how little in control of his emotions he is, the problem is that he betrays everything he himself would proclaim he stood for. He does not act like a man in pain and sorrow but like a spoiled child who didn't get his way. Throughout the game he will go on and on about how wonderful it is to be a Grey Warden, how nothing is as important as putting an end to the Blight (which is true even). If you are a non-human noble female char and have a relationship with him, when he becomes king, he'll break up with you going on about how duty is much more important than personal feelings and to him, duty is extremely important. But if he doesn't get what he wants, then the thing he himself had called the most important thing in his life, suddenly can be forgotten.
Alistair is the noble knight in shining armour as long as it doesn't really contradict his wants. The moment it does, he turns into Cartman from Southpark.
"You will let the darkspawn kill Loghain insteal of letting me do it?
Screw you Blight  ...I'm going home!"

He also betrays EVERYTHING.

He betrays Duncan

He betrays Ferelden

He betrays the Wardens

If you are romancing him, he betrays his "one true love"

If not he betrays his "best friend"

He betrays everything you have worked so hard for

He betrays Cailan

He betrays his morals, his personality up to that point, and his ideals.

All because of petty violence that he wants to end in blood, despite the current two heads of his order telling him this is for the best for Ferelden/the Wardens.

[IPerrin]

errant_knight wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

I think Loghain would always be a threat. He expresses no regret or capitulation even after the Landsmeet votes against him. He's going to fight his way out until he agrees to settle it as a matter of honor. He remains obsessed by Orleis and contemptuous of the Grey Wardens.

Anora will also always be a threat, but since she's committed no crime other than making it clear that she will continue to try and seize the throne, Alistair's solution in the most palatable, if somewhat risky. Her unwillingness to swear fealty once Alistair has been chosen shows her true colors, though. If the good of Fereldan was truly her motivation, she'd accept the decision to see Fereldan united behind the king. Instead, she'd rather continue a civil war and try and take the throne. I see her as actually being worse than her father, if you take his crimes out of the picture, as she is driven by personal ambition.

   How does Anora have anything to do with my previous statement?

[errant_knight]

IPerrin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

I think Loghain would always be a threat. He expresses no regret or capitulation even after the Landsmeet votes against him. He's going to fight his way out until he agrees to settle it as a matter of honor. He remains obsessed by Orleis and contemptuous of the Grey Wardens.

Anora will also always be a threat, but since she's committed no crime other than making it clear that she will continue to try and seize the throne, Alistair's solution in the most palatable, if somewhat risky. Her unwillingness to swear fealty once Alistair has been chosen shows her true colors, though. If the good of Fereldan was truly her motivation, she'd accept the decision to see Fereldan united behind the king. Instead, she'd rather continue a civil war and try and take the throne. I see her as actually being worse than her father, if you take his crimes out of the picture, as she is driven by personal ambition.

   How does Anora have anything to do with my previous statement?

It doesn't. It has to do with my previous statement about threats to the throne. It was an expansion on the idea. People do that sometimes.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[perry2]

Default137 wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Measuring the loss in the lives of the player and various npcs might not really be feasable. All the npcs are damaged goods after all (except for dog).
But the problem with Alistair's behaviour at the Landsmeet is not how little in control of his emotions he is, the problem is that he betrays everything he himself would proclaim he stood for. He does not act like a man in pain and sorrow but like a spoiled child who didn't get his way. Throughout the game he will go on and on about how wonderful it is to be a Grey Warden, how nothing is as important as putting an end to the Blight (which is true even). If you are a non-human noble female char and have a relationship with him, when he becomes king, he'll break up with you going on about how duty is much more important than personal feelings and to him, duty is extremely important. But if he doesn't get what he wants, then the thing he himself had called the most important thing in his life, suddenly can be forgotten.
Alistair is the noble knight in shining armour as long as it doesn't really contradict his wants. The moment it does, he turns into Cartman from Southpark.
"You will let the darkspawn kill Loghain insteal of letting me do it?
Screw you Blight  ...I'm going home!"

He also betrays EVERYTHING.

He betrays Duncan

He betrays Ferelden

He betrays the Wardens

If you are romancing him, he betrays his "one true love"

If not he betrays his "best friend"

He betrays everything you have worked so hard for

He betrays Cailan

He betrays his morals, his personality up to that point, and his ideals.

All because of petty violence that he wants to end in blood, despite the current two heads of his order telling him this is for the best for Ferelden/the Wardens.

Also if your PC splashes both Leliana and Morrigan he betrays you by ratting you out. Not in a noble sense appealing to a monogamous morality, but like a middle school tattle tale. He will surely grow up to be a lawyer:)
He is a 13 year old and not a mature one.

[DreGregoire]

Hmmmmm... Please..... tell me why you are attacking somebody for posting their experience to the forum. If you don't want to read another thread about my beloved Alistair's (eeek er I mean just Alistair.... yeah I didn't say beloved.. nope...) effect on people, then here's a suggestion. Don't read it. pfffft. I'm tired of trying to pick out the good forum post responses with all the hate I am seeing towards others who are just letting others know their opinion. I've only posted a few times on the forums and I would post more but I don't feel like hearing trolls trash me for posting. I mean I only read the posts I'm interested in.



In response to the post and not the trolls: I can totally relate to your frusteration about Alistair, through my play throughs, I've enjoyed being nice to him and then getting all pissy and snapping at him. Despite all his whining he appears to have a code of honor of his own and the occasional backbone to demand the right choices be made. I've even done play throughs where I've done everything to ****** him off possible. I was astounded by his response.



I haven't really had any issues with Alistair tanking because it still amazes me when I just stand back and watch him take them all on by himself while I occasionally throw a spell in as a mage, but then again I always adjust one of his tactics so that he can heal his own self because I tend to get distracted by pretty colors. lmao j/k. Oh here's something that pisses me off at times about Alistair, he tends to push my melee hero's out of the way. It cracked me up at first and then made me indignant. LOL



I agree with other posts about trying to understand where Alistair is coming from. I try to roleplay my hero based on his/her background so I enjoy that companions don't always agree with me. I also love the fact that it isn't so easy to control the ending even when you think you made all the right choices in your game play.



L2A

-------------------------

I do have to have other things to do than play video games, it's just that the makers are evil and exploit my addiction!

[AtreiyaN7]

Xandurpein wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

As to where I'm going with this: basically, I think that Alistair can reconcile the fact that sometimes Wardens have to do harsh things - to protect themselves or other recruits and that there is, quite likely, some acceptance of military rules or what seems like draconian behavior to us. Oh, and if you talk to Riordan, he does say that Duncan has a soft spot for his recruits. Duncan might fit the archetype of a Grey Warden better than someone like Alistair, but it seems like Duncan wanted to keep Alistair alive and may have been somewhat indulgent of him (even though he does try to be stern/scolds him for being uppity with that mage), so I wouldn't necessarily say he did everything the 'Grey Warden Way' if you will.

My point is this: Alistair obviously looks up to Duncan, but seems to think the Grey Wardens is omething very different from what Duncan do. So Alistair idolizes the man, but is unaffected by his beliefs and morals. I'm not saying this is wrong, but I do find it inconsistent.

Yes, I can see how that might seem inconsistent. People tend to idealize what they love/care about it I think, and they're perfectly happy to ignore flaws or inconsistencies. I suppose one could argue that the Alistair fans do? *chuckle* Like I said though, I believe that he's able to reconcile the romantic ideals with the harsh realities of life (vis a vis my example - speaking of which, I went into detail in part to prevent the whole "oh, but Duncan wasn't justified in killing Jory" thing that occasionally comes up when the subject is broached - hehe).

[master-fluff]

robertthebard wrote...

You can expect to come into an "I hate xxxx" thread and find hate.  Do you think you're going to change somebody's mind?  I'm pretty dedicated, and it's going to take a lot to make me change my mind about how Alistair acts, since I've seen him act in every possible way in my playthroughs. 

You assume my motives for posting are more noble than they are, sadly they're purely selfish.  Joining in rather than lurking means my ideas get challenged, I learn new things and understand more about the world the game is set in.  It makes me want to read all the codices, buy the books and really immerse myself.  One doesn't get that pushback in threads where one agrees with it's basic tenet.  See, it's all about me, not you

I've enjoyed thinking more about Loghain, Duncan and the whole premise of the GWs.  The quality of posters here is good despite the snark and apparent newb intolerance.
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Modifié par master-fluff, 05 janvier 2010 - 10:03 .

[master-fluff]

double post, sorry

Modifié par master-fluff, 05 janvier 2010 - 10:02 .

[Sabriana]

melkathi wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Measuring the loss in the lives of the player and various npcs might not really be feasable. All the npcs are damaged goods after all (except for dog).
But the problem with Alistair's behaviour at the Landsmeet is not how little in control of his emotions he is, the problem is that he betrays everything he himself would proclaim he stood for. He does not act like a man in pain and sorrow but like a spoiled child who didn't get his way. Throughout the game he will go on and on about how wonderful it is to be a Grey Warden, how nothing is as important as putting an end to the Blight (which is true even). If you are a non-human noble female char and have a relationship with him, when he becomes king, he'll break up with you going on about how duty is much more important than personal feelings and to him, duty is extremely important. But if he doesn't get what he wants, then the thing he himself had called the most important thing in his life, suddenly can be forgotten.
Alistair is the noble knight in shining armour as long as it doesn't really contradict his wants. The moment it does, he turns into Cartman from Southpark.
"You will let the darkspawn kill Loghain insteal of letting me do it?
Screw you Blight  ...I'm going home!"

I did not write that, on the contrary, I refuted it. Please don't misquote me. Ariella posted the bolded part in response to one of my posts.
I'm normally not a fussbudget, but what is attributed to me here is totally and utterly contrary to my opinion.

I just want to re-post the whole thing, it shows exactly what my perspective is:

Ariella wrote:
Yeah, you lost your family, whom you've had most of your life.
Alistair's never had that, or when he's about to he's had the carpet
pulled out from under him, and this time that included the death of his
father figure, the near death of another father figure, the death of
almost every Grey Warden in Fereldan, the outlawing of said
organization when it's Loghain who is the criminal and the fact that
Loghain is fiddling while Fereldan burns.

I'd say Alistair lost
as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right
to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as
you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp
putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and
motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Sabriana answered with:
That
is how you personally see it. My view differs in that Alistair lost
something that existed entirely in his head alone. In no way, shape, or
form can I see anywhere that Duncan view Alistair in a different light
than all the other initiates. He did the same for Daveth, namely saving
his neck from the gallows. Daveth ran away from home as soon as he
"could outrun his pa", and lived on the streets ever since. Daveth
admires Duncan and is very grateful to him, but never elevates him to
hero status.

My noble lost something that was really there. Her
parents told her they loved her and she told them she loved them. A
close sister/brother relationship exists, as well as a close
'auntie'/nephew (Gawd, the 'dire bunny' line cracked me up). She lost
most of her family, she lost friends, a lover, and countless others,
not to mention the invasion and semi-destruction of her home. I am
sorry, but there is no way that I, personally, can get anywhere close
to the "he lost more than the PC" line of thought.

All in all,
to me, Alistair is a grown man, not a child. Throughout the entire time
at Ostagar Duncan keeps hammering the point of "there is no turning
back" and "the Grey Wardens do everything/anything it takes". In the
end, Alistair betrays Duncan right along with the entire country,
people, animals and plants.

 
And that is exactly what went on on page 7 of this thread.

[ejoslin]

Loghain hurt a lot of people. Wynne barely escaped alive and saw her circle destroyed. I would say her loss was as great as Alistair's, and she hates Loghain in her own sanctimonious way. Yet she doesn't ditch the PC, and she hasn't even taken a vow and is still proud to be your friend, even if you recruit Loghain.

Edit: I don't even like Wynne (too preachy, though she does mellow I suppose), but I respect her more than I respect Alistair.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain hurt a lot of people. Wynne barely escaped alive and saw her circle destroyed. I would say her loss was as great as Alistair's, and she hates Loghain in her own sanctimonious way. Yet she doesn't ditch the PC, and she hasn't even taken a vow and is still proud to be your friend, even if you recruit Loghain.

Edit: I don't even like Wynne (too preachy, though she does mellow I suppose), but I respect her more than I respect Alistair.

I feel ninja'd.

I was going to point that out too. Wynne tears into Loghain something fierce, but she understands the bigger picture. She also affirms that the battle was already lost, and that Loghain's army would not have turned the loss into a win. Now, seeing as how this affirmation comes from a person (Wynne), who really, really hated Loghain's guts, I very much doubt that she would lie for Loghain's benefit.

I love Wynne and she is with me a lot. Sure, she can go on my PC's nerves big time, but she is still a darling. However, that's neither here nor there because it's a personal preference.

What is most interesting to me though, is the fact that Wynne sees the Grey Wardens through the same rose-red glasses as Alistair. She lost much at the battle, but yet, she can put all of that aside for the moment. She stays, and she fights the greatest evil there is, the power that can utterly and completely destroy all of Ferelden, lock, stock, and barrel.

[ejoslin]

I feel that Loghain quitting the field was not his big sin, so to speak, as Alistair and the PC lit the beacon just as the king died. However, he had Arl Eamon poisoned and Bryce Cousland killed -- two major contenders to the throne if Cailin died, (if you disagree about Cousland being a contender to the throne, read the codex please). I'm sure he expected Alistair to die in the battle as well. He was also responsible for the darkspawn being in the tower to begin with.



With as powerful as Bryce Cousland was, and as enamored with nobles as Alistair is, I wonder why he doesn't see the PC in that role. My theory is that Alistair never sees the PC for who they are, but instead sees them as an ideal he builds up in his head. The new Duncan so to speak.



And yes, what I don't like about Wynne is how she is constantly lecturing my PC about behaving in ways that are not fit for gray wardens. She expects the PC to put their human side away and just be a hero which of course can't happen, no matter what. I like that she comes around, though; not only about it being ok to fall in love with whomever, but with just being human. But despite all her feelings, she knows what's important here. With Alistair, it remains all about him -- it's a selfishness that comes with being young, I suppose.

[melkathi]

Sabriana wrote...



I did not write that, on the contrary, I refuted it. Please don't misquote me. Ariella posted the bolded part in response to one of my posts.
I'm normally not a fussbudget, but what is attributed to me here is totally and utterly contrary to my opinion.

I just want to re-post the whole thing, it shows exactly what my perspective is:

I truly apologize.

I wish I would learn to read and not missquote people

Modifié par melkathi, 05 janvier 2010 - 12:25 .

[Sabriana]

Oh, I don't doubt that the Couslands were/are serious contenders for the throne. As a matter of fact, my PC holds Loghain as ultimately responsible for the massacre at Highever.

However, she has also seen the darkspawn up close and personal, and knows that they are the ultimate threat for all of Ferelden. She also promised her father to fight for her country, and will fulfill his last wish, not matter what.

She's been in the Deep Roads, and she's seen the horror the darkspawn can wreak. Some of it is worse than being dead. Gads, the Deep Roads crept me out something fierce, and I mean me as the player. I was unable to go on the internet, so I was totally unspoiled. I even had to stop and do something else, like polishing my refrigerator to get some distance.

In the end she agrees with Duncan. Nothing matters more than stopping this Blight, and I mean nothing. Yes, that is one thing that annoys her with Wynne, this seeing the GWs as white knights in shining armor, but at least Wynne comes around and does the right thing in the end. Because if the darkspawn win, that is the end. The end of everything, period. My PC (she has no knowledge of the sacrifice at that moment) reasons that she can deal with Loghain and the possible threat he poses later. Because if she doesn't do everything she possibly can to stop this Blight, there will be no later.

Edited to add:

@ melkathi

No problem. I know myself how difficult the formatting on this forum can be. Had me swearing up and down the scale at times, and I usually don't swear.... much.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 janvier 2010 - 12:28 .