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[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Oh, I don't doubt that the Couslands were/are serious contenders for the throne. As a matter of fact, my PC holds Loghain as ultimately responsible for the massacre at Highever.

However, she has also seen the darkspawn up close and personal, and knows that they are the ultimate threat for all of Ferelden. She also promised her father to fight for her country, and will fulfill his last wish, not matter what.

She's been in the Deep Roads, and she's seen the horror the darkspawn can wreak. Some of it is worse than being dead. Gads, the Deep Roads crept me out something fierce, and I mean me as the player. I was unable to go on the internet, so I was totally unspoiled. I even had to stop and do something else, like polishing my refrigerator to get some distance.

In the end she agrees with Duncan. Nothing matters more than stopping this Blight, and I mean nothing. Yes, that is one thing that annoys her with Wynne, this seeing the GWs as white knights in shining armor, but at least Wynne comes around and does the right thing in the end. Because if the darkspawn win, that is the end. The end of everything, period. My PC (she has no knowledge of the sacrifice at that moment) reasons that she can deal with Loghain and the possible threat he poses later. Because if she doesn't do everything she possibly can to stop this Blight, there will be no later.

That is exactly why I cannot understand Alistair's actions.  Yes, I get it that he wanted Loghain dead.  But what difference does it make whether he dies right there at the landsmeet or after the battle?  And how can he ditch his country like that?  He deserts as surely as Loghain did, and with arguably higher stakes since he knew about the blight.

Loghain, for all his flawed reasoning, at least had Ferelden's best interest at heart.  Alistair just had his own feelings carrying him away.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IPerrin wrote...
Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.

Oh, but he is a threat left. People are people. There'll be quite a few who are fanaticly loyal to him, quite a few who won't believe what happened at the Landsmeet. And it will take a bit of time for the news to spread in the first place. Ergo, he will have more than enough people who are still willing to follow him, ergo, he is still a threat.
Not to mention that he's downright schizio.
His reasoning is totally bonkers and a guy who switches from "you're an orlesian spy and you must DIIIIIE!" to "you're a good man for Ferelden" in 5 seconds without anything sensible to actually back up or trigger that change is definately someone I would trust with a spork...let alone a sword and my back.

[syllogi]

ejoslin wrote...

And yes, what I don't like about Wynne is how she is constantly lecturing my PC about behaving in ways that are not fit for gray wardens. She expects the PC to put their human side away and just be a hero which of course can't happen, no matter what. I like that she comes around, though; not only about it being ok to fall in love with whomever, but with just being human. But despite all her feelings, she knows what's important here. With Alistair, it remains all about him -- it's a selfishness that comes with being young, I suppose.

Wynne will attempt to kill you if you side with the Templars, or if you desecrate the Ashes in front of her.  But somehow people don't freak out about her betrayal, or claim that she and Leliana are weak and whiny, because they have a tipping point that will cause them to abandon your cause. 

I can't imagine a situation where I would let Loghain join my party, as a good character, in the game as it is written.  Just me, but it's so weird to see so many people glossing over his crimes just because they know that he won't betray you later.  Why would a character think that, given what's come before in the game?

[ejoslin]

TeenZombie wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And yes, what I don't like about Wynne is how she is constantly lecturing my PC about behaving in ways that are not fit for gray wardens. She expects the PC to put their human side away and just be a hero which of course can't happen, no matter what. I like that she comes around, though; not only about it being ok to fall in love with whomever, but with just being human. But despite all her feelings, she knows what's important here. With Alistair, it remains all about him -- it's a selfishness that comes with being young, I suppose.

Wynne will attempt to kill you if you side with the Templars, or if you desecrate the Ashes in front of her.  But somehow people don't freak out about her betrayal, or claim that she and Leliana are weak and whiny, because they have a tipping point that will cause them to abandon your cause. 

I can't imagine a situation where I would let Loghain join my party, as a good character, in the game as it is written.  Just me, but it's so weird to see so many people glossing over his crimes just because they know that he won't betray you later.  Why would a character think that, given what's come before in the game?

Depends on how you side with the templars -- if you just let Ulrich kill Irving, she stays with you.  However, if you go after the mages, you're going after her.  And yes, I've sided with the dragon cult and have had to kill her.  HOWEVER, Alistair is supposed to be a gray warden first.  Wynne has taken no such vow; she's following you because she feels it's the right thing to do.  

[Lotion Soronarr]

Default137 wrote...
He also betrays EVERYTHING.

He betrays Duncan

He betrays Ferelden

He betrays the Wardens

If you are romancing him, he betrays his "one true love"

If not he betrays his "best friend"

He betrays everything you have worked so hard for

He betrays Cailan

He betrays his morals, his personality up to that point, and his ideals.

All because of petty violence that he wants to end in blood, despite the current two heads of his order telling him this is for the best for Ferelden/the Wardens.

I'd say you're wrong there.

First, by sparing Loghian you're betraying him first. So how does that work? He betrayed you cause you betrayed him cause he betrayed you while you bwere betraying him, etc...

Secondly, how is he betraying Cailan? Or anything you worked so hard for?

Thirdly, if anything, he sticks to his morals. But probably realises that they are incompatible with the way you want to run the show and snaps.
By what I get he seems dissilusioned in Ferelden, disillusioned in the GW's and disillusioned in the PC. So since he got nothing but grief out of all of it, exactly why should he even bother anymore?


Also - Al's storming off and Loghains retreat are not comparable in the least. At all.
The battle at Ostagar depended on Loghains support and his plan - he delibertely abandoned the men he put into an ugly position in the first place.
Al doesn't leave you in the middle of the battle, in a trap he set up.

[Sabriana]

Alistair leaves a battle that is crucial to the survival of *all* of Ferelden. All life, not just an army. all humans, all elves, all dwarfs, all soldiers, all animals, all plant-life, everything is utterly destroyed beyond repair if that battle is lost. And it is not winnable at all without the Grey Wardens. That is not metagaming, the fact that GWs are absolutely crucial to the destruction of the archdemon is hammered home throughout the game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ahh..but Al doens't know that a GW is needed and you DO have a huge army with you. At no point does he think "Geez, Ferelden is DOOOMED without me. DOOOMED."



Leaving you with an army in a well defended fort with no indication of an imminent attack? Yes, totally the same as killing off your king in a trap and leaving your men to die.

[Sialater]

Also, NONE of you, without metagaming, know that the Darkspawn are actually days away.

[Sabriana]

Alistair not only knows that GWs are needed, he also tells it to my PC personally at Ostagar.



@ Sialater

That's not metagaming if you pay attention to the world-map. It's pretty much a given that things will come to a head very, very soon

[Sialater]

The world map is a metagame feature. Unless you're saying its like that map in Harry Potter where the characters can see who's moving where.



I doubt if the PC looked at his or her map, the big black blotches are advancing upon him/her.

[Sabriana]

If you listen to the gossips, the nobles, and the rumors then it is also quite feasible to assume things will get to a head soon.

Lothering is deader than a door-nail and my PC and companions keep running into darkspawn more and more frequently.

For what reason would the darkspawn not keep pushing forward? It's what the archdemon plans all along. In the Deep Trenches the PC can actually see the marching out of a huge contigent, lead by the archdemon.

There really is no reason to assume that the darkspawn would lay low and twiddle their thumbs for a while.

Denerim is the capital of Ferelden, and the archdemon is not designed as being a total idiot. Taking the capital of any country will be devastating to the enemy.

That last one is actually a point of non-understanding for me. Why the time-consuming march back to Redcliffe? It's only a village after all, and it does not hold any military value. No army, no generals, so I guess I have to look into that a bit more to try and figure that braindead move out.

When you run into darkspawn cells on the northern highway, it's 'uh-oh' time.

That was my PC's reasoning on my first (very unspoiled) play-through, and it turns out that she was right. It's all in the game, I guess.

[ejoslin]

Actually, I think it's all pretty apparent that things are coming to a head soon without metagaming. Riorden is back from scouting (remember that you want to join him but he doesn't want to deprive your armies of their commander). Everyone knows that the battle is very soon -- even on my first play through where I read NOTHING, I knew that battle was upon us. Riorden being back means Riorden had news.

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

If you listen to the gossips, the nobles, and the rumors then it is also quite feasible to assume things will get to a head soon.
Lothering is deader than a door-nail and my PC and companions keep running into darkspawn more and more frequently.
For what reason would the darkspawn not keep pushing forward? It's what the archdemon plans all along. In the Deep Trenches the PC can actually see the marching out of a huge contigent, lead by the archdemon.
There really is no reason to assume that the darkspawn would lay low and twiddle their thumbs for a while.
Denerim is the capital of Ferelden, and the archdemon is not designed as being a total idiot. Taking the capital of any country will be devastating to the enemy.
That last one is actually a point of non-understanding for me. Why the time-consuming march back to Redcliffe? It's only a village after all, and it does not hold any military value. No army, no generals, so I guess I have to look into that a bit more to try and figure that braindead move out.
When you run into darkspawn cells on the northern highway, it's 'uh-oh' time.
That was my PC's reasoning on my first (very unspoiled) play-through, and it turns out that she was right. It's all in the game, I guess.

The dumb thing is.... my darkspawn encounters trickled off, and probably my fault, but I've yet to have the patience to listen to ALL the gossips.  My PC knows lothering has fallen but the random encounters have trickled off so that I'm just getting "attacked" by that annoying merchant.  So, no, I don't know things are coming to a head THAT quickly and they're making a beeline for Denerim.

Do I think Al was in the right to run off?  No.  But then, chosing Loghain was a betrayal to him (I did it accidentally in my first run-through), and even I thought there was time.  I've since forgiven the character though, since he can only react to how you play.

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, I think it's all pretty apparent that things are coming to a head soon without metagaming. Riorden is back from scouting (remember that you want to join him but he doesn't want to deprive your armies of their commander). Everyone knows that the battle is very soon -- even on my first play through where I read NOTHING, I knew that battle was upon us. Riorden being back means Riorden had news.

But at Landsmeet, Riordan hadn't scouted, he was fresh out of prison and still weak.

[Sabriana]

Lol, isn't that the truth. What a game to pull us in that deeply! The characters do react to certain actions because they were written that way. Imagine... pixel people with free will. Oh the horror



But fair enough about the encounters. That's not a thing that we players control. In my play-through, my PC and her party couldn't go straight from point A to point B further into the game without running into darkspawn. They ran into a cell on their way to Soldier's Peak even, and that made my PC assume that things were rapidly slipping into the high danger zone.

However, the player can only make certain assumptions if given the proper clues. I also made myself click patiently through all the "Heard any rumours?" lines, all the while resenting that it took sooo much time.

The other encounters such as the side-quests and the dwarf merchant went on earlier in my game. Never triggered the 'Clark Kent' scene though. I'm pretty put out about that, to be honest.

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, I think it's all pretty apparent that things are coming to a head soon without metagaming. Riorden is back from scouting (remember that you want to join him but he doesn't want to deprive your armies of their commander). Everyone knows that the battle is very soon -- even on my first play through where I read NOTHING, I knew that battle was upon us. Riorden being back means Riorden had news.

But at Landsmeet, Riordan hadn't scouted, he was fresh out of prison and still weak.

Actually, you're right.  Blond moment, sorry!  But even without metagaming, I knew battle was upon us.  That's where we were heading afterwards.  We had our armies, we had our leadership established, the two things needed, and then we were heading off to war.

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ahh..but Al doens't know that a GW is needed and you DO have a huge army with you. At no point does he think "Geez, Ferelden is DOOOMED without me. DOOOMED."

Leaving you with an army in a well defended fort with no indication of an imminent attack? Yes, totally the same as killing off your king in a trap and leaving your men to die.

Alistair does not know why a GW is needed to slay the archdemon, but he knows that a GW is needed. He was in the GWs long enough and Duncan had said enough for him to know that. He was simply missing the details. So he knowingly deprives the GWs of a full third of their strength.



I was just playing the darkspawn attack on Redcliff again. Rio informs us the horde is marching on Denerim. My mage asked why we assumed they were heding for Redclif anyway and little mr righteous Alistair says:
"Not to mention that we have been too busy killing each other to pay much attention to some silly old darkspawn horde."

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

Lol, isn't that the truth. What a game to pull us in that deeply! The characters do react to certain actions because they were written that way. Imagine... pixel people with free will. Oh the horror

But fair enough about the encounters. That's not a thing that we players control. In my play-through, my PC and her party couldn't go straight from point A to point B further into the game without running into darkspawn. They ran into a cell on their way to Soldier's Peak even, and that made my PC assume that things were rapidly slipping into the high danger zone.
However, the player can only make certain assumptions if given the proper clues. I also made myself click patiently through all the "Heard any rumours?" lines, all the while resenting that it took sooo much time.
The other encounters such as the side-quests and the dwarf merchant went on earlier in my game. Never triggered the 'Clark Kent' scene though. I'm pretty put out about that, to be honest.

That's kinda why I love all the characters, even for their inconsistencies.  (Have you ever met a real person who was 100% consistent?)  And I forgive them their betrayals since they are, after all, MY fault.  I'm the one with the real brain, here.

That would really irritate me if the meteor one never showed up and I spent money on Warden's Keep.  I keep going on elfroot and lyrium shopping trips, however, so I run out of randoms quite often.

[syllogi]

melkathi wrote...

Alistair does not know why a GW is needed to slay the archdemon, but he knows that a GW is needed. He was in the GWs long enough and Duncan had said enough for him to know that. He was simply missing the details. So he knowingly deprives the GWs of a full third of their strength.

I was just playing the darkspawn attack on Redcliff again. Rio informs us the horde is marching on Denerim. My mage asked why we assumed they were heding for Redclif anyway and little mr righteous Alistair says:
"Not to mention that we have been too busy killing each other to pay much attention to some silly old darkspawn horde."

From Alistair's perspective, there is a whole bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens on their way, IF the Landsmeet is settled and they are allowed into the country.  He doesn't know that the Archdemon is only two days away and it will all come down to three Grey Wardens, but he does know that Loghain REALLY doesn't want Orlesian Grey Wardens in the country.  He sees the PC making what *appears* to be a huge, gigantic mistake in trusting Loghain, and he can't stop it.  So yeah, your PC betrays Alistair's trust in this.  You can fault him for not knowing what you know, but he does have reason for his actions.

[Sabriana]

Sialater wrote...

That's kinda why I love all the characters, even for their inconsistencies.  (Have you ever met a real person who was 100% consistent?)  And I forgive them their betrayals since they are, after all, MY fault.  I'm the one with the real brain, here.

That would really irritate me if the meteor one never showed up and I spent money on Warden's Keep.  I keep going on elfroot and lyrium shopping trips, however, so I run out of randoms quite often.

Yes and it's the inconsistencies that make for such great forum fodder. The biggest one (in my mind) is this one:
What the heck is Sandal doing at Fort Drakon with darkspawn bodies all around him, and a fully stocked warehouse?

I have to get back into the habit of trudging through the world more. I downloaded the 'chest in camp' quite a while back, and have fallen into the habit of buying boatloads of lyrium, elfroot, and corrupter agent and then dumping all of it in the chest.

melkathi wrote:
Alistair does not know why a GW is needed to slay the archdemon, but he knows that a GW is needed. He was in the GWs long enough and Duncan had said enough for him to know that. He was simply missing the details. So he knowingly deprives the GWs of a full third of their strength.

He says a lot of things at Ostagar that make it clear that he heard the words, but didn't understand completely. He tells my PC that only the Grey Wardens can successfully stop a Blight (although true enough, he doesn't know why). He also tells her upon her inquiring whether Wardens are "knights? Heroes?" that this is not so, but that a Warden would do anything to stop a Blight. That this was their primary duty, and takes precedense above all else.


Edited to add:
There is never a good reason for treason and betrayal. That goes for Loghain, Howe, and it certainly goes for Alistair.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:36 .

[ejoslin]

TeenZombie wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Alistair does not know why a GW is needed to slay the archdemon, but he knows that a GW is needed. He was in the GWs long enough and Duncan had said enough for him to know that. He was simply missing the details. So he knowingly deprives the GWs of a full third of their strength.

I was just playing the darkspawn attack on Redcliff again. Rio informs us the horde is marching on Denerim. My mage asked why we assumed they were heding for Redclif anyway and little mr righteous Alistair says:
"Not to mention that we have been too busy killing each other to pay much attention to some silly old darkspawn horde."

From Alistair's perspective, there is a whole bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens on their way, IF the Landsmeet is settled and they are allowed into the country.  He doesn't know that the Archdemon is only two days away and it will all come down to three Grey Wardens, but he does know that Loghain REALLY doesn't want Orlesian Grey Wardens in the country.  He sees the PC making what *appears* to be a huge, gigantic mistake in trusting Loghain, and he can't stop it.  So yeah, your PC betrays Alistair's trust in this.  You can fault him for not knowing what you know, but he does have reason for his actions.

It's a funny thing about betrayal in this game -- often the goal is to betray before being betrayed.  Who hasn't betrayed Anora?  And you could argue that in many cases, Alistair betrays the PC.  I also think the PC trusting Riorden is not a betrayal so much as a realization that things where they are are NOT ideal, and you have to make due with what you have.

[robertthebard]

TeenZombie wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Alistair does not know why a GW is needed to slay the archdemon, but he knows that a GW is needed. He was in the GWs long enough and Duncan had said enough for him to know that. He was simply missing the details. So he knowingly deprives the GWs of a full third of their strength.

I was just playing the darkspawn attack on Redcliff again. Rio informs us the horde is marching on Denerim. My mage asked why we assumed they were heding for Redclif anyway and little mr righteous Alistair says:
"Not to mention that we have been too busy killing each other to pay much attention to some silly old darkspawn horde."

From Alistair's perspective, there is a whole bunch of Orlesian Grey Wardens on their way, IF the Landsmeet is settled and they are allowed into the country.  He doesn't know that the Archdemon is only two days away and it will all come down to three Grey Wardens, but he does know that Loghain REALLY doesn't want Orlesian Grey Wardens in the country.  He sees the PC making what *appears* to be a huge, gigantic mistake in trusting Loghain, and he can't stop it.  So yeah, your PC betrays Alistair's trust in this.  You can fault him for not knowing what you know, but he does have reason for his actions.

Where is it mentioned anywhere from the time you rescue Riorden to the Landsmeet that any help is coming from Orlais?  Please don't invent information.  It is a fact that we know they aren't coming, because Loghain had them turned away prior to Ostagar.  We know this from Riordan.  Inventing reasons to justify somebody's actions will not endear him to others, it just makes that camp look desperate to prove a point.  Orlesian forces sent one man, Riordan, and our ultimate response to any help we can get?  Dismiss him out of hand.

[Cybercat999]

TeenZombie wrote...
From Alistair's perspective...

From Alistairs perspective there will always be somebody else fighting his battles and making choices and suffering consequences. So he can sit in his safe little corner and act like a dumb sheep or he can have his little tantrums without being responsible for anything. Because he made sure not to be important and irreplacable to the point of having to act like an adult for the sake of somebody else. Since he dumped all the responsibility of saving the world on somebody else, he can drop the matter, have hissy fit and go get drunk.

That is about as much as I know about Alistairs perspective as you do.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sabriana wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Loghain hurt a lot of people. Wynne barely escaped alive and saw her circle destroyed. I would say her loss was as great as Alistair's, and she hates Loghain in her own sanctimonious way. Yet she doesn't ditch the PC, and she hasn't even taken a vow and is still proud to be your friend, even if you recruit Loghain.

Edit: I don't even like Wynne (too preachy, though she does mellow I suppose), but I respect her more than I respect Alistair.

I feel ninja'd.

I was going to point that out too. Wynne tears into Loghain something fierce, but she understands the bigger picture. She also affirms that the battle was already lost, and that Loghain's army would not have turned the loss into a win. Now, seeing as how this affirmation comes from a person (Wynne), who really, really hated Loghain's guts, I very much doubt that she would lie for Loghain's benefit.

I love Wynne and she is with me a lot. Sure, she can go on my PC's nerves big time, but she is still a darling. However, that's neither here nor there because it's a personal preference.

What is most interesting to me though, is the fact that Wynne sees the Grey Wardens through the same rose-red glasses as Alistair. She lost much at the battle, but yet, she can put all of that aside for the moment. She stays, and she fights the greatest evil there is, the power that can utterly and completely destroy all of Ferelden, lock, stock, and barrel.

I like Wynne a lot too but you're right, she does see the GWs as Alistair does. Also, Wynne literally has nothing left to lose. No family and, once the spirit weakens, no more life. Why wouldn't she want to spend the rest of her days saving Ferelden? Seems like her choice to go was easier than anyone's. She's also, unquestionably, much more mature than any of the other companions. 

And from what I understand, I haven't tried it so this could be wrong, doesn't she attack you if you become a blood mage? What if I was a good person and I became a blood mage thinking it would make me stronger against the archdemon? Does that make a difference? And it seems to me that if she attacks you, she must either give up and leave or she must die. I obviously haven't played through as many times as some of you but now I'm wondering about this...

[Creature 1]

There's supposed to be a dialogue at the end of the tower quest where if you're a blood mage she confronts you and I believe attacks you. The Dialogue Tweaks mod activated this dialogue option, but I haven't gone through the tower as a blood mage so I haven't tested it. If you become a blood mage later she does not do anything, and even worse, you can make her a blood mage. I am sympathetic to giving people liberty to play the game as they wish but it seems to me that it might be appropriate to disallow making Wynn a blood mage! Maybe if you want to make her a blood mage there should be a story line you can run through to make it consistent.



At any rate, this is another reason I'm writing some fanfic. I think Wynn would agree to stay with the party if your character is a blood mage providing you don't do anything else apparently evil. But then she should cut ties after the Archdemon is defeated.