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[Eruanna Guerrein]

TeenZombie wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

And yes, what I don't like about Wynne is how she is constantly lecturing my PC about behaving in ways that are not fit for gray wardens. She expects the PC to put their human side away and just be a hero which of course can't happen, no matter what. I like that she comes around, though; not only about it being ok to fall in love with whomever, but with just being human. But despite all her feelings, she knows what's important here. With Alistair, it remains all about him -- it's a selfishness that comes with being young, I suppose.

Wynne will attempt to kill you if you side with the Templars, or if you desecrate the Ashes in front of her.  But somehow people don't freak out about her betrayal, or claim that she and Leliana are weak and whiny, because they have a tipping point that will cause them to abandon your cause. 

I can't imagine a situation where I would let Loghain join my party, as a good character, in the game as it is written.  Just me, but it's so weird to see so many people glossing over his crimes just because they know that he won't betray you later.  Why would a character think that, given what's come before in the game?

I should have continued reading before posing my question. I thought she would abandon you as well. I'd forgotten about Leliana.

[robertthebard]

Caladhiel wrote...

But back on topic - this is about Alistair, not his mentor.

Just one thing. You can dislike Alistair for whatever reason you like, it's personal taste, no probs with that. Looks, humor, leadership problems, you name it. But what I find really amusing is all those people willing to ditch him just for the one overreaction he has at Landsmeet. "I was okay with him up till now, but then he threw his tantrum and I was like NO WAY I can EVER forgive him." Kinda sounds familiar...

You've probably read me saying this more than once, but just in case; the Landsmeet is such a small part of why I don't like him as a person as to not warrant mention.  His crimes, as far as I'm concerned, start at Flemeth's hut, and continue on from there.  It's the highlight of my Origins to get to tell him to get over himself.  We have been rescued by Flemeth, and in return, she asks only that we take her "daughter" with us to stop the Blight.  We can metagame Flemeth's motives for this if we wish, but at face value, we do need all the help we can get, and Morrigan is far from helpless.  Yet Alistair protests.  It builds from there, but I'm sure people are tired of reading my reasons, especially since I'm consistent on them.

Thanks, however, for your permission. 

[syllogi]

robertthebard wrote...
Where is it mentioned anywhere from the time you rescue Riorden to the Landsmeet that any help is coming from Orlais?  Please don't invent information.  It is a fact that we know they aren't coming, because Loghain had them turned away prior to Ostagar.  We know this from Riordan.  Inventing reasons to justify somebody's actions will not endear him to others, it just makes that camp look desperate to prove a point.  Orlesian forces sent one man, Riordan, and our ultimate response to any help we can get?  Dismiss him out of hand.

Not that I want to get into a debate with someone who posts like a belligerant troll when anyone disagrees with him, but out of curiosity, why did Loghain betray Cailan at Ostagar, if he didn't want to prevent Orlesian Grey Wardens from coming into the country?  Why did he get mad at both Anora and Arl Howe for suggesting that they needed the help of Orlesian Grey Wardens?  Why was Eamon insistent that they needed Alistair to be made king right away?  No, Riordan did not specifically say that they were getting help, but it was inferred, throughout the game, constantly, that if the blight was to be defeated in Ferelden, they did need the Grey Wardens from Orlais to enter the country.  Are you suggesting that the *game* was "inventing information" too?

Cybercat999 wrote...
From Alistairs perspective there will always be somebody else fighting his battles and making choices and suffering consequences. So he can sit in his safe little corner and act like a dumb sheep or he can have his little tantrums without being responsible for anything. Because he made sure not to be important and irreplacable to the point of having to act like an adult for the sake of somebody else. Since he dumped all the responsibility of saving the world on somebody else, he can drop the matter, have hissy fit and go get drunk.

That is about as much as I know about Alistairs perspective as you do.

I do not think you understand the word "perspective".  And while he can run off and be a loser drunk, he can also step up and sacrifice himself, become a great king with Anora or the female human noble, or lead the Grey Wardens in the end.  Sometimes people need help to find their own potential.

[robertthebard]

TeenZombie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Where is it mentioned anywhere from the time you rescue Riorden to the Landsmeet that any help is coming from Orlais?  Please don't invent information.  It is a fact that we know they aren't coming, because Loghain had them turned away prior to Ostagar.  We know this from Riordan.  Inventing reasons to justify somebody's actions will not endear him to others, it just makes that camp look desperate to prove a point.  Orlesian forces sent one man, Riordan, and our ultimate response to any help we can get?  Dismiss him out of hand.

Not that I want to get into a debate with someone who posts like a belligerant troll when anyone disagrees with him, but out of curiosity, why did Loghain betray Cailan at Ostagar, if he didn't want to prevent Orlesian Grey Wardens from coming into the country?  Why did he get mad at both Anora and Arl Howe for suggesting that they needed the help of Orlesian Grey Wardens?  Why was Eamon insistent that they needed Alistair to be made king right away?  No, Riordan did not specifically say that they were getting help, but it was inferred, throughout the game, constantly, that if the blight was to be defeated in Ferelden, they did need the Grey Wardens from Orlais to enter the country.  Are you suggesting that the *game* was "inventing information" too?

Cybercat999 wrote...
From Alistairs perspective there will always be somebody else fighting his battles and making choices and suffering consequences. So he can sit in his safe little corner and act like a dumb sheep or he can have his little tantrums without being responsible for anything. Because he made sure not to be important and irreplacable to the point of having to act like an adult for the sake of somebody else. Since he dumped all the responsibility of saving the world on somebody else, he can drop the matter, have hissy fit and go get drunk.

That is about as much as I know about Alistairs perspective as you do.

I do not think you understand the word "perspective".  And while he can run off and be a loser drunk, he can also step up and sacrifice himself, become a great king with Anora or the female human noble, or lead the Grey Wardens in the end.  Sometimes people need help to find their own potential.

I will point out that despite flaming me as a 'belligerant troll", you did not answer my question.  Other than the prebattle Ostagar cutscenes, Orlsesian forces marching into Fereldan are not mentioned, until you rescue Riordan, and then they are mentioned as not coming.  If you have Alistair with you, he will hear this from Riordan himself, along with the fact that the rest of Thedas is willing to just let Fereldan fall to the Blight if they can't get their crap together to fight the Blight, rather than expend troops fighting both Fereldan and the darkspawn.  So thanks for the flame job, it's a bit cold here, and it helps to warm things up, but it doesn't address where you perceive Alistair's perception of Orlais coming to Fereldan's rescue, since it's pointed out rather plainly that they aren't.  Again, provide some dialog, not some flaming.

[Sabriana]

Riordan states unequivocally that the Orlesian Wardens were turned back at the Border and as far as help from other Wardens go, he's it.



Also, the temper tantrum at the Landsmeet is not the reason I dislike the Alistair pixel character, it's what follows. Him betraying Ferelden and every living thing in it is what really bothers me about that character.

[Ariella]

IPerrin wrote...

   Loghain has no power once he's capitulated in front of the landsmeet.  I see no political threat left.  Most of my characters didn't trust him and killed him, but he is still a ferelden hero, and if I'm trying to be a righteous hero, I could easily believe that he is redeemable in the way that Luke redeemed Darth Vader.  Riordan may not have been at ostargar but he is still a senior grey warden and was still imprisoned by Howe...  Just because there are valid reasons to kill someone, doesnt mean I have to play such a bloodthirsty PC.  I expect, after all we've been through together, that Alistair will stick by my PC's decision in the matter, especialy with him insisting that I take the lead throughout the game.  If Alistair doesn't trust Loghain, the least he could do is watch my back to ensure Loghain doesn't stick a blade in it. 

Perception in politics is everything. He may have captitualted but that doesn't mean he's going to stop being a divisive element, plus this guy violated his oaths to his liege lord.... You really going to trust that, especially in a culture where your word is your bond? Add to that the fact that the banns who fought against Loghain's regency would not be happy to find him now in a position of leadership in the Grey Wardens. It causes potetial divisiveness in the chain of command. And it's not "bloodthirsty" but politics and justice. Loghain is as irredeemable as Branka in his way. The south of Fereldan (his charge to protect as Teryn of Gweran) has fallen. He pulled all the troops out and left Lothering to its fate. He's destroyed homes and familes... No, it's a lot safer to have Loghain dead politically, and it is justice.

As for Alistair's choice. He's stuck with you through everything, but even HE has his breaking point. For him, the idea of sparing Loghain and inducting him into the "family" is the one thing he cannot bear. And I find it unreasonable to expect Alistair to embrace the author of so much pain, both personally and nationally. So he walks away. It's the only thing he CAN do at this point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
Alistair not only knows that GWs are needed, he also tells it to my PC personally at Ostagar.

He sez "GreyWardens are needed" much as someone would say "Good men are needed". He doesn't nkow that only a GW can kill an Archdemon at that point. Nobody in the party (except maybe Morrigan) knows that having a GW is ESSENTIAL.

Also some peopel assume that Alistair MUST bea Grey Warden jsut like Duncan. That he must act like Duncan. Think like Duncan. That is pure bull****. Not all Grey Wardens think alike or act alike.
One of the things I do like about Al is that he's aware that GW's aren't paladins, but he wants them to be. He wants to be BETTER than your regular GW.

His crimes, as far as I'm concerned, start at Flemeth's hut, and continue on from there

What "crimes" are you talking about?
Discussing choices with you?
Witholding  some info about himself for a while?

If those are his "great crimes" than no person in the world would survive your purging of the wicked. By your own standards, you'd have to kill yourself a dozen times over. So get to it then! I'll keep count.

[Sabriana]

Yes, he can indeed walk away from the PC and the group. I could even follow his reasoning. But he should never walk away from Ferelden and all its inhabitants.

I would have no problem, if they had just included one little shot of Alistair fighting for the country and its people. Somewhere. But that's not so. I see Eamon, Teagan, Irving, and a few more familiar faces I can't name at the moment. I see mages, dwarfs, elves, and humans, all embroiled in a desperate fight for the survival of Ferelden. But I don't see Alistair.

Edited to add:

He says "only the Grey Wardens can end a true Blight."

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 janvier 2010 - 06:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
Riordan states unequivocally that the Orlesian Wardens were turned back at the Border and as far as help from other Wardens go, he's it.

And they are still there at the border, waiting.
Why do you think they sent Rhiordan?

Or do you just assume that Eamon, Anora or Alistair would refuse the reinforcements? The whole reason Eamon called the Landsmeet is so that the mess in the coutny would be settled - so that the coutnry can defend itself from the Blight. At that point, no sane person will refuese 200 Grey Wardens.

[Syxx-]

i hate hospitals...and doctors and lawyers and cops...

                            and Alistair too....    

[Ariella]

Where this idea that there's no civil war until you save Eamon come from? The civil war begins as soon as you finish your first treaty quest. That Denerim cutscene where How tells Loghain that there are demands from the Bannor that he step down.... And it looks like it'll be civil war after all.



They KNEW it was a risk, and did it anyway.

[Sabriana]

Riordan also says that there is no way they can get there in time, and that they shouldn't count on them. He also says that as far as help from other GWs goes, he's it.

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

One of the things I do like about Al is that he's aware that GW's aren't paladins, but he wants them to be. He wants to be BETTER than your regular GW.

You are using the term Paladin in the D&D way I assume, lawful good and shiney armour?
How do you reconcile that with the fact that he'll turn his back on a whole country?

Of course he himself can't in the end and ends up a drunk as I understand. But the possible regrets later on really do prove that it was not an act born from conflicting morals, but an act of selfishness.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
Alistair not only knows that GWs are needed, he also tells it to my PC personally at Ostagar.

He sez "GreyWardens are needed" much as someone would say "Good men are needed". He doesn't nkow that only a GW can kill an Archdemon at that point. Nobody in the party (except maybe Morrigan) knows that having a GW is ESSENTIAL.

Also some peopel assume that Alistair MUST bea Grey Warden jsut like Duncan. That he must act like Duncan. Think like Duncan. That is pure bull****. Not all Grey Wardens think alike or act alike.
One of the things I do like about Al is that he's aware that GW's aren't paladins, but he wants them to be. He wants to be BETTER than your regular GW.

His crimes, as far as I'm concerned, start at Flemeth's hut, and continue on from there

What "crimes" are you talking about?
Discussing choices with you?
Witholding  some info about himself for a while?

If those are his "great crimes" than no person in the world would survive your purging of the wicked. By your own standards, you'd have to kill yourself a dozen times over. So get to it then! I'll keep count.

Again, thank you for bringing nothing to this conversation.  What is it that you are trying to say?  I do know the answer to that, you know.  You are implying that only your opinion, or that of somebody that happens to agree with you, is valid.  There are free forum software downloads all over the internet, feel free to make one, and then you can be right all day long, and can even prevent people with opposing views from posting.  Here, however, you are out of line.  Regarding "purging of the wicked", this is hilarious coming from someone that stooped to Godwin's Law to try to "win" a conversation.  I am deeply ashamed to have found myself debating along the same lines as you did in that thread, even though it didn't cause me to feel the need to waffle away from my position there.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
Riordan states unequivocally that the Orlesian Wardens were turned back at the Border and as far as help from other Wardens go, he's it.

And they are still there at the border, waiting.
Why do you think they sent Rhiordan?

Or do you just assume that Eamon, Anora or Alistair would refuse the reinforcements? The whole reason Eamon called the Landsmeet is so that the mess in the coutny would be settled - so that the coutnry can defend itself from the Blight. At that point, no sane person will refuese 200 Grey Wardens.

So in context with the conversation that you felt the need to intrude upon, where is your evidence that they are coming?  The last time you and I discussed this, you wound up waffling to they aren't.  Now you've come back full circle to they might be?  Way to make a stand, Lotion.  I begin to understand your user name now, you chose it because it's slippery, and you may have to take advantage of that to slip away from something you said.

[Ariella]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
Alistair not only knows that GWs are needed, he also tells it to my PC personally at Ostagar.

He sez "GreyWardens are needed" much as someone would say "Good men are needed". He doesn't nkow that only a GW can kill an Archdemon at that point. Nobody in the party (except maybe Morrigan) knows that having a GW is ESSENTIAL.

Also some peopel assume that Alistair MUST bea Grey Warden jsut like Duncan. That he must act like Duncan. Think like Duncan. That is pure bull****. Not all Grey Wardens think alike or act alike.
One of the things I do like about Al is that he's aware that GW's aren't paladins, but he wants them to be. He wants to be BETTER than your regular GW.

And honestly, I like Alistair's vision for the Grey Wardens rather than the "end justifies the means" version. There have to be lines you do not cross, or your become the monster you're fighting (somewhat literally in the cases of the Grey Wardens). I mean Loghain is the archeotype of that axiom. He acted much the same as regent that Megrhen did as king. Seizing land of those who disagreed with him, allowing his subordinates to torture at will. Wiping out whole familes...

Lotion, you stated it very well, thank you.

[Maelli]

Templar=Paladin and Alistair did not want to be a Templar. If he did, he wouldn't make the remarks he did for female characters, but that doesn't mean he can't be moral and just in the way he wants the Grey Wardens to be. Remember his upbringing.

Modifié par Maelli, 05 janvier 2010 - 06:39 .

[Vicious]

I don't doubt for a minute that Alistair would turn against you if you desecrate Andraste's ashes. However being that he is plot sensitive he does not. Its interesting how the second he is no longer plot sensitive he has a crisis moment where you can remove him from the party.



Fascinating.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

@ Maelli

Oh? Paladins were put in charge of controlling a certain character type... wizards, sorcerers? Not in any version of DnD I've played. And I didn't realize that paladins had no interest in love or sex either.

Not that this in on topic, just incorrect from what I know.

Modifié par Eruanna Guerrein, 05 janvier 2010 - 06:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
He says "only the Grey Wardens can end a true Blight."

Does he even believe that anymore?

You are using the term Paladin in the D&D way I assume, lawful good and shiney armour?
How do you reconcile that with the fact that he'll turn his back on a whole country?

Of
course he himself can't in the end and ends up a drunk as I understand.
But the possible regrets later on really do prove that it was not an
act born from conflicting morals, but an act of selfishness.

Not selfishness. Despair...dissapointment..shock.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out he's not fully himself.

****

Regarding "purging of the wicked", this is hilarious coming from
someone that stooped to Godwin's Law to try to "win" a conversation.  I
am deeply ashamed to have found myself debating along the same lines as
you did in that thread, even though it didn't cause me to feel the need
to waffle away from my position there.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

So in context with the conversation that you felt the need to intrude
upon, where is your evidence that they are coming?  The last time you
and I discussed this, you wound up waffling to they aren't.  Now you've
come back full circle to they might be?  Way to make a stand, Lotion. 
I begin to understand your user name now, you chose it because it's
slippery, and you may have to take advantage of that to slip away from
something you said.

Is there anything that comes out of your mounts that isn't s***? What are you babbling about now?

Even if hte Orlesians chevaliers do return to the capital and decide to wait for the whole Ferelden thing to blow itself, the orlesians GW's won't. They're there. Anora isn't stupid  - she would let them in.
Sure, it will take them time to arrive, but no one knows exactly when and where the darkspawn horde will come. They might come late to save Denerim. Or they might not.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Is there anything that comes out of your mounts that isn't s***? What are you babbling about now?

Even if hte Orlesians chevaliers do return to the capital and decide to wait for the whole Ferelden thing to blow itself, the orlesians GW's won't. They're there. Anora isn't stupid  - she would let them in.
Sure, it will take them time to arrive, but no one knows exactly when and where the darkspawn horde will come. They might come late to save Denerim. Or they might not.

So how does this answer my question?  Where is it mentioned in game that they are coming, since it's specifically mentioned in game that they aren't.  You can feel free to attack my personally all you want, you aren't answering the question which means one of two things, you don't know, or it's not mentioned that they are.  Either way, you are simply arguing to argue.  If not, you could give the example of the dialog that transpires stating that Orlesian reinforcements have been called after the Landsmeet.  In case you missed it in your fervor to defend Alistair, this is what's being discussed at this point in the dialog.