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[Creature 1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Even if hte Orlesians chevaliers do return to the capital and decide to wait for the whole Ferelden thing to blow itself, the orlesians GW's won't. They're there. Anora isn't stupid  - she would let them in.
Sure, it will take them time to arrive, but no one knows exactly when and where the darkspawn horde will come. They might come late to save Denerim. Or they might not.

I believe the game states the Orlesian Gray Wardens said, "Screw that, we're not going to go save Ferelden if they don't want us."  Let Ferelden burn and engage the Archdemon at the border when it invades.  It's stupid for the Orlesian Gray Wardens to increase their odds of failing, thus dooming their country, by going into hostile territory and fighting their way through both darkspawn and Fereldens to reach the Archdemon. 

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
He says "only the Grey Wardens can end a true Blight."

Does he even believe that anymore?

You are using the term Paladin in the D&D way I assume, lawful good and shiney armour?
How do you reconcile that with the fact that he'll turn his back on a whole country?

Of
course he himself can't in the end and ends up a drunk as I understand.
But the possible regrets later on really do prove that it was not an
act born from conflicting morals, but an act of selfishness.

Not selfishness. Despair...dissapointment..shock.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out he's not fully himself.

****

Regarding "purging of the wicked", this is hilarious coming from
someone that stooped to Godwin's Law to try to "win" a conversation.  I
am deeply ashamed to have found myself debating along the same lines as
you did in that thread, even though it didn't cause me to feel the need
to waffle away from my position there.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

So in context with the conversation that you felt the need to intrude
upon, where is your evidence that they are coming?  The last time you
and I discussed this, you wound up waffling to they aren't.  Now you've
come back full circle to they might be?  Way to make a stand, Lotion. 
I begin to understand your user name now, you chose it because it's
slippery, and you may have to take advantage of that to slip away from
something you said.

Is there anything that comes out of your mounts that isn't s***? What are you babbling about now?

Even if hte Orlesians chevaliers do return to the capital and decide to wait for the whole Ferelden thing to blow itself, the orlesians GW's won't. They're there. Anora isn't stupid  - she would let them in.
Sure, it will take them time to arrive, but no one knows exactly when and where the darkspawn horde will come. They might come late to save Denerim. Or they might not.

Lotion... why wouldn't Alistair believe only a GW can stop the blight? Did something happen to make him change his mind that I missed?

Also, Riordan does specifically say that the Orlesian GWs can't possibly make it in time now. Now maybe people have had playthroughs where they missed that line or didn't have Alistair with them and for those playthroughs, this could be a valid arguement for Alistair's reaction. Even as an Al fan, I've gotta point this out.

[syllogi]

Sabriana wrote...

Riordan also says that there is no way they can get there in time, and that they shouldn't count on them. He also says that as far as help from other GWs goes, he's it.

I believe he says that when you find out that the Archdemon is on his way, correct?  This doesn't help Alistair in his crisis at the Landsmeet.

@robertthebard: I did answer your question, and even conceded the point, in my response to you, read it again.  And whether you like it or not, it's not considered "flaming" when one points out a flaw.  Based on the way you're responding to Lotion here, you're continuing the impression that you are a bully and rude towards anyone who disagrees with you.  I enjoy debating points about the game with people, and finding new ways of looking at the plot, but frankly, you're no fun at all. 

[Eruanna Guerrein]

TeenZombie wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Riordan also says that there is no way they can get there in time, and that they shouldn't count on them. He also says that as far as help from other GWs goes, he's it.

I believe he says that when you find out that the Archdemon is on his way, correct?  This doesn't help Alistair in his crisis at the Landsmeet.

@robertthebard: I did answer your question, and even conceded the point, in my response to you, read it again.  And whether you like it or not, it's not considered "flaming" when one points out a flaw.  Based on the way you're responding to Lotion here, you're continuing the impression that you are a bully and rude towards anyone who disagrees with you.  I enjoy debating points about the game with people, and finding new ways of looking at the plot, but frankly, you're no fun at all. 

I thought he said it when you free him from Howe's cell.

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Riordan also says that there is no way they can get there in time, and that they shouldn't count on them. He also says that as far as help from other GWs goes, he's it.

I believe he says that when you find out that the Archdemon is on his way, correct?  This doesn't help Alistair in his crisis at the Landsmeet.

@robertthebard: I did answer your question, and even conceded the point, in my response to you, read it again.  And whether you like it or not, it's not considered "flaming" when one points out a flaw.  Based on the way you're responding to Lotion here, you're continuing the impression that you are a bully and rude towards anyone who disagrees with you.  I enjoy debating points about the game with people, and finding new ways of looking at the plot, but frankly, you're no fun at all. 

I thought he said it when you free him from Howe's cell.

He does.  This is when he states that they would rather just watch Ferelden burn and fortify against the Blight rather than lose troops fighting on two fronts, Ferelden and darkspawn.  Harsh, but understandable.  It's not a good idea to waste your resources.

@TeenZombie:  I probably did miss you conceding the point.  I have never, nor will ever claim to be a nice guy.  It's not who I am.  I am, however, fact driven.  If we're going to discuss facts, I like them to be just that.  Opinions, however, are unique to the individual, and yes, when I'm told that my opinion is wrong, simply because somebody disagrees with me, I will tend to be a bit bull headed, I'm a Taurus, would anyone expect anything else?

[RangerSG]

Yep, Riordin says it fresh from the prison cell. He tells you that it's too late for the Orlesian GW's then. And that they've decided to stand at the border and let the Blight consume Ferelden if they can't defend themselves. It's the same conversation where he notes, "Besides, you haven't done too badly in assembling an army, anyway."



I don't hate Alistair. But I do think his reaction at the Landsmeet is irrational. Can you see it coming? Yeah. That doesn't excuse it. And as his ending shows, he knows it too.



As for accepting Loghain into the GW, actually, I think in a lot of ways, it makes good sense regardless of your "alignment."



Politically, it's a move that can further unify the nation against the Blight. You know the odds of him surviving the Joining are 50-50 or less. So 'that' could kill him and let you off the hook with everyone. As to the question of justice, it's entirely appropriate than the man who betrayed your order being made to serve as a footsoldier in it? Plus you know the Joining is a death sentence in its own right.



Personally, my PC may hate Loghain, but if he knows anything about history, he knows why Loghain is a hero too. Maybe what he's become is a tragedy. But there's something to be said for letting the man try to redeem his legacy. If Alistair really can't take that, that's a personal problem that honestly needs to be kept subordinate to the greatest good--stopping the Blight.



So even though I like Alistair, it's not a simple "good/evil" decision about whether or not to spare Loghain. If your concern is stopping the Blight and nothing else, then honestly, unless you're convinced Alistair and Anora make the best tandem for the throne, conscripting Loghain makes perfect sense.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
He does.  This is when he states that they would rather just watch Ferelden burn and fortify against the Blight rather than lose troops fighting on two fronts, Ferelden and darkspawn.  Harsh, but understandable.  It's not a good idea to waste your resources.

Well, if the land is united and the queen/king invite them back in, there there is no war on two front anymore, now is there?

[draksig]

I have to agree with the original poster.  This is my first play through and I have made mistakes in character development.  But even with good stats and great armor, Alistair is a wimp.  He goes down in almost every battle I have against a good opponent or uses up way too much health potions or healing spells.  In my next play through, I am thinking about leaving him behind.  Question, if you choose not to include him in the last battle, will he still be around to kill the dragon or will it be just you?

If I manage to get to the end, I will gladly allow Alistair to sacrafice himself killing the dragon. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

If you're having trouble with Al, you should look for tactics guides on the builds forums. With proper equipment, development and managing, every character can be kickass.

[draksig]

RangerSG wrote...

Personally, my PC may hate Loghain, but if he knows anything about history, he knows why Loghain is a hero too. Maybe what he's become is a tragedy. But there's something to be said for letting the man try to redeem his legacy. If Alistair really can't take that, that's a personal problem that honestly needs to be kept subordinate to the greatest good--stopping the Blight.
 

I think that at the end of the landsmeet, he did show that he truly did what he thought was best for the country and he died with honour.  A truly evil person who has no honour would have called  his soldiers to his side when he realised he was going to loose and plunge the nation back into civil war.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
He does.  This is when he states that they would rather just watch Ferelden burn and fortify against the Blight rather than lose troops fighting on two fronts, Ferelden and darkspawn.  Harsh, but understandable.  It's not a good idea to waste your resources.

Well, if the land is united and the queen/king invite them back in, there there is no war on two front anymore, now is there?

So can we see a dialog that supports that they are coming, or are you simply trying to defend Alistair leaving saying they "might be"?  You see, this little side dialog started because somebody said Alistair's perception was that they were coming.  This poster has since recanted this position, and yet you persist, without anything to back it up but "might have been".

[ejoslin]

Not to mention Riorden it would take weeks for word to get to Orlais and then weeks to get the GW back and apparently they don't have the time. Of course, that's one thing that never made sense to me -- why the PC didn't just send someone to Orlais while securing the treaties . . . I think that would have been a decent job for Alistair.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Do you anything to back that they won't come?

By your own admission, the reson why the GW's aren't entering Ferelden is because the regent opposes their entrance and they don't want to "fight the natives".
If the regent is removed from power, so is the reason for them not crosing the border. Both anora nad Alistair were shown to be willing to call them in. The PC himself is a GW and will certanly hold sway with the king/queen.

So...with Loghain out of hte way...is there ANY reason why they shouldn't come?

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Do you anything to back that they won't come?

By your own admission, the reson why the GW's aren't entering Ferelden is because the regent opposes their entrance and they don't want to "fight the natives".
If the regent is removed from power, so is the reason for them not crosing the border. Both anora nad Alistair were shown to be willing to call them in. The PC himself is a GW and will certanly hold sway with the king/queen.

So...with Loghain out of hte way...is there ANY reason why they shouldn't come?

As a matter of fact, I do.  I have Riordan in Howe's dungeon telling me that they aren't coming.  Until you can provide something to the contrary, we're playing what if.  A whole lot of things would play out a lot differently if we could play the game based on what if.

[remylass]

Alistair is almost always in my party. I think he is well written, and he has saved my butt in combat many times.

[Creature 1]

draksig wrote...
I have to agree with the original poster.  This is my first play through and I have made mistakes in character development.  But even with good stats and great armor, Alistair is a wimp.  He goes down in almost every battle I have against a good opponent or uses up way too much health potions or healing spells.  In my next play through, I am thinking about leaving him behind.

How can this be?  Do people think Alistair is hard-coded with some invisible Aura of Suck?  He's as good as any other sword and shield warrior with the same stats, talents, and armor.  Being a sword and shield warrior, he's a superior tank to Sten and Oghren if they are left with their two-handed build.  Unlike two-handed or dual-wield warriors he has a shield, which boosts his armor, and then the shield talents that boost defense in multiple ways.  The only other character that can tank better (besides a PC sword and shield tank, which benefits from higher level and Fade points) is Shale, and it's my understanding that in late game Alistair overtakes her. 

Mysterious.  I understand not liking Alistair because of his personality, but it's mechanistically impossible for him to be a lousier tank than every other warrior if you give him the right build.  

[DPSSOC]

RangerSG wrote...

Politically, it's a move that can further unify the nation against the Blight. You know the odds of him surviving the Joining are 50-50 or less. So 'that' could kill him and let you off the hook with everyone.

 
Unless people find out you knew there was a fair chance he'd die, then you're not just a murderer but a coward and a sneak.

[Cybercat999]

Creature 1 wrote...

draksig wrote...
I have to agree with the original poster.  This is my first play through and I have made mistakes in character development.  But even with good stats and great armor, Alistair is a wimp.  He goes down in almost every battle I have against a good opponent or uses up way too much health potions or healing spells.  In my next play through, I am thinking about leaving him behind.

How can this be?  Do people think Alistair is hard-coded with some invisible Aura of Suck?  He's as good as any other sword and shield warrior with the same stats, talents, and armor.  Being a sword and shield warrior, he's a superior tank to Sten and Oghren if they are left with their two-handed build.  Unlike two-handed or dual-wield warriors he has a shield, which boosts his armor, and then the shield talents that boost defense in multiple ways.  The only other character that can tank better (besides a PC sword and shield tank, which benefits from higher level and Fade points) is Shale, and it's my understanding that in late game Alistair overtakes her. 

Mysterious.  I understand not liking Alistair because of his personality, but it's mechanistically impossible for him to be a lousier tank than every other warrior if you give him the right build.  

Exactly. Alistair or any other companion is only as good as player playing the game, no more no less.
It amuses me too how people project their personal likes and dislikes on something that is just their own incapability to properly play something.

I dislike Alistair with a passion but he is nr 1 tank in my party by far and the game would be much less fun for me if I didnt have him. But then I can separate liking the character and using that same character to his best potential in combat. If I just want to run around and RP he stays in camp, but if I want to have fun in fights I make sure hes by my side with proper equipment, stats, skills and tactics setup - and he is formidable in my games.

[Cybercat999]

robertthebard wrote...
 I'm a Taurus, would anyone expect anything else?

Yikes

[robertthebard]

Cybercat999 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
 I'm a Taurus, would anyone expect anything else?

Yikes

RawR!!! 

[Sialater]

So, we can legitimately call you bull headed?


I'm kidding, geez.

Modifié par Sialater, 05 janvier 2010 - 09:49 .

[robertthebard]

Sialater wrote...

So, we can legitimately call you bull headed?


I'm kidding, geez.

Why yes, yes you can.    Along with a few other perfectly true and applicable names.

[Sialater]

Good, wasn't sure how you'd take that, you Tauri can be SOOOO touchy.

[Joshd21]

I believe Allister is upset and want's Logan to die because that was Allister's/ Half Brother or Uncle. I forget who, but he mentions him by name when speaking about the king. That I can understand why he would throw a fit.

His entire sarcastic funny tone about him is meant to be funny. However at times it can be annoying. Maybe because I perfer the bad side of things pretty much hes goody goody on most things but a pretty decent friend kinda guy. However deff not my choice for a favorite

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Do you anything to back that they won't come?

By your own admission, the reson why the GW's aren't entering Ferelden is because the regent opposes their entrance and they don't want to "fight the natives".
If the regent is removed from power, so is the reason for them not crosing the border. Both anora nad Alistair were shown to be willing to call them in. The PC himself is a GW and will certanly hold sway with the king/queen.

So...with Loghain out of hte way...is there ANY reason why they shouldn't come?

As a matter of fact, I do.  I have Riordan in Howe's dungeon telling me that they aren't coming.  Until you can provide something to the contrary, we're playing what if.  A whole lot of things would play out a lot differently if we could play the game based on what if.

I think you guys are both right. The Wardens won't come to support Fereldan while Loghain is in charge, because Loghain won't let them and has a bounty on Wardens. However, it's stated in Redcliffe pre-final battle that word has been sent to Orlais for support. That is to the empress, not to the Wardens, but if the Orlesians are willing to help come fight the Blight (which they wouldn't do if Fereldan was still locked in a state of civil war or under Loghain's control, since he never would have asked) the Wardens no longer have a reason to stay out. The Orlesian Wardens also evidently expected Riordan to report back at some point so that they can move in one direction or another. Isn't that why the sent him at all? Wardens must fight the Blight, they do what is necessary, and if their reason for not doing so is removed, it stands to reason that they will send support.

I think what was said was Redcliffe to Denerim is 2 days forced march, so there's no way the Orlesians would catch up to you by the time you get to Redcliffe anyway if they're past the Frostback Mountains. It's neither confirmed nor denied in game that there will be support from the Wardens.