555 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Honestly, can't help but think that those who say Alistair is not good in a fight either are not using him to his potential OR are relying on him too much, i.e. the other three people in your party aren't doing their jobs. I mean, I think it is poetry to see Alistair walk into a fight, knock everyone flat with War Cry, slice and dice a mage, Shield Bash the first poor bastard who gets to his feet., all without breaking a sweat.



As for Loghain, I believe it's perfectly appropriate for a Warden to take a stand on not wanting to accept someone who's largely responsible for the destruction of the entire Grey Warden force of Ferelden. And assuming Loghain survives the Blight, what... he retires in obscurity? Don't think so. Riordan is thinking desperately, Alistair is thinking clearly. The writers obviously forced the issue to create drama, but I would still lop Loghain's head off even if it didn't force a game choice.

[robertthebard]

Addai67 wrote...

Honestly, can't help but think that those who say Alistair is not good in a fight either are not using him to his potential OR are relying on him too much, i.e. the other three people in your party aren't doing their jobs. I mean, I think it is poetry to see Alistair walk into a fight, knock everyone flat with War Cry, slice and dice a mage, Shield Bash the first poor bastard who gets to his feet., all without breaking a sweat.

As for Loghain, I believe it's perfectly appropriate for a Warden to take a stand on not wanting to accept someone who's largely responsible for the destruction of the entire Grey Warden force of Ferelden. And assuming Loghain survives the Blight, what... he retires in obscurity? Don't think so. Riordan is thinking desperately, Alistair is thinking clearly. The writers obviously forced the issue to create drama, but I would still lop Loghain's head off even if it didn't force a game choice.

Alistair is not thinking clearly, as can be evidenced by his leaving to get drunk.  He knows what he did was wrong.  Whether we can justify it or not, he knows it was wrong.  This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

[Addai]

robertthebard wrote...

This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

Hence why I said "I believe..."  Just giving my perspective, dude.  Take some of your own advice.

As for Alistair becoming a drunk, it's your interpretation that it was due to guilt.  Getting screwed over for both the throne and having Duncan's killer accepted into the Wardens could do it, too.

[robertthebard]

Addai67 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

Hence why I said "I believe..."  Just giving my perspective, dude.  Take some of your own advice.

As for Alistair becoming a drunk, it's your interpretation that it was due to guilt.  Getting screwed over for both the throne and having Duncan's killer accepted into the Wardens could do it, too.

I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog.  (Gotta make sure those flaps are working).

[RangerSG]

DPSSOC wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Politically, it's a move that can further unify the nation against the Blight. You know the odds of him surviving the Joining are 50-50 or less. So 'that' could kill him and let you off the hook with everyone.

 
Unless people find out you knew there was a fair chance he'd die, then you're not just a murderer but a coward and a sneak.

Nonsense. You offered him the choice. And you certainly aren't a "coward" when you've fought him every step of the way, even when he had the advantage. And as for it being "murder," how? It's a judicial punishment for his treason.

It's certainly not like turning around and marching your army away rather than risking a battle after your allies fought through your treasonous trap to send up the signal to attack.

End of the day, you give him a chance to show the Blight really 'is' what matters to him more than his personal agenda. Like every Warden recruit, he has a fair chance of dying through the Joining. But that doesn't make it "murder" any more than lopping his head off after the Landsmeet would.

[Xandurpein]

RangerSG wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Politically, it's a move that can further unify the nation against the Blight. You know the odds of him surviving the Joining are 50-50 or less. So 'that' could kill him and let you off the hook with everyone.

 
Unless people find out you knew there was a fair chance he'd die, then you're not just a murderer but a coward and a sneak.

Nonsense. You offered him the choice. And you certainly aren't a "coward" when you've fought him every step of the way, even when he had the advantage. And as for it being "murder," how? It's a judicial punishment for his treason.

It's certainly not like turning around and marching your army away rather than risking a battle after your allies fought through your treasonous trap to send up the signal to attack.

End of the day, you give him a chance to show the Blight really 'is' what matters to him more than his personal agenda. Like every Warden recruit, he has a fair chance of dying through the Joining. But that doesn't make it "murder" any more than lopping his head off after the Landsmeet would.

Loghian gets about as much choice as my character did from Duncan.

[Cybercat999]

robertthebard wrote...
This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.

Right now I am happy to play it as FPS and I keep Alistair in party for my FPS reasons. If I always tried to play from RP perspective I would have been bored and dumped the game weeks ago. I am glad I can still have fun with it.
Good thing this game can be played in lot of different ways.

Modifié par Cybercat999, 05 janvier 2010 - 11:39 .

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

Hence why I said "I believe..."  Just giving my perspective, dude.  Take some of your own advice.

As for Alistair becoming a drunk, it's your interpretation that it was due to guilt.  Getting screwed over for both the throne and having Duncan's killer accepted into the Wardens could do it, too.

I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog.  (Gotta make sure those flaps are working).

He never even tries to seize it. He's just going to accept it because everyone is telling him it's his duty. I, however, think that being betrayed by his fellow GW, and possibly best friend or romantic interest, and having the GWs destroyed (his version of them anyway) is enough reason.

I have said before though that I think there being no further dialogue options with him, whether started by Al, the PC, or Riordan, is unrealistic. But they did it because otherwise, there's a good chance the character they created and named Alistair could very feasibly see reason and either come back to fight with you or at the very least do something along the lines of Riordan's attempt on the archdemon.

[Xandurpein]

I have to admit though that I find it mildly ridiculous for people to express distaste for Alistair, based on how he performs in battle. He is there with you from the very start. There is no other character who you can mold talents the way you want from start than Alistair. So if he is a bad tank, then it just proves you need to learn more about how to level characters...

[Sabriana]

RangerSG wrote...

Nonsense. You offered him the choice. And you certainly aren't a "coward" when you've fought him every step of the way, even when he had the advantage. And as for it being "murder," how? It's a judicial punishment for his treason.

It's certainly not like turning around and marching your army away rather than risking a battle after your allies fought through your treasonous trap to send up the signal to attack.

End of the day, you give him a chance to show the Blight really 'is' what matters to him more than his personal agenda. Like every Warden recruit, he has a fair chance of dying through the Joining. But that doesn't make it "murder" any more than lopping his head off after the Landsmeet would.

QFT. Yes. I agree. Loghain, even though he is a supreme bastard, will do anyhing to make sure Ferelden is safe. That is his major hang-up. If he Orlesians hadn't been thrown into his face so often, who knows what would have happened. Aside from that, you deal with the possible repercussions of taking Loghain after the crucial battle. Because if the darkspawn win, there is no 'after', period.

[Addai]

robertthebard wrote...
I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog. 

I think the fact that "hardened" Alistair definitely does want the throne shows that deep down he actually does want it and thinks it's his birthright, only he is not grasping for it as Anora does.  Only seizing the throne to try to kill Loghain??  That seems to me a pretty extreme interpretation.

[Truncated Flea]

Addai67 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog. 

I think the fact that "hardened" Alistair definitely does want the throne shows that deep down he actually does want it and thinks it's his birthright, only he is not grasping for it as Anora does.  Only seizing the throne to try to kill Loghain??  That seems to me a pretty extreme interpretation.

I think that if Alistair is hardened and you spare Loghain, there's a possibility of dialogue where he says something along the lines of, "Fine, I'll take the throne, even if it's only to see justice done!" I can't quite remember, but he said something to that effect in my "spare Loghain" playthrough of the Landsmeet.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

Hence why I said "I believe..."  Just giving my perspective, dude.  Take some of your own advice.

As for Alistair becoming a drunk, it's your interpretation that it was due to guilt.  Getting screwed over for both the throne and having Duncan's killer accepted into the Wardens could do it, too.

I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog.  (Gotta make sure those flaps are working).

Actually, that's not true. He takes the throne if you harden him and he comes to the conclusion it's his duty. It has NOTHING to do with being able to kill Loghain. He says that over and over again even BEFORE presented with the whole "we can spare Loghain and induct him into the Grey Wardens". He may not like it, but he'll do it because he DOES understand duty. And look at the situation from Alistair's perspective: he's see all the ruin that Loghain's actions have caused (Lothering, the Circle Tower etc) and until the very moment in the Landsmeet, the point of calling the Landsmeet was to bring Loghain to JUSTICE (and if you don't believe me, take a look at the diologue options when he first brings up Goldana, you call tell him that Loghain will get what's coming to him and he brushes that off. He's not excited about it or letting it drive him). Suddenly, he's presented with the idea of not only Loghain escaping justice but having to embrace Duncan's murderer as a brother. If you can claim you feel "betrayed" by him walking away, Alistair has similar grounds to feel betrayal considering up until this very moment, Alistair has stuck by the PC no matter what the PC's choices have been and if he agreed with them.  The only other being in your party with this much loyalty to the PC is the dog. And now your PC is telling Alistair: "suck it up, bro, all the bad things Loghain's done don't matter..." From that perspective it's a terrible betrayal by the PC, and he has every right to be bitter about it.

[Xandurpein]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This is a role playing game, not a FPS.  There are role play reasons to keep either character.  It's more up to the player whether they can justify it than up to somebody on a forum trying to educate someone about morallity, or what they should or shouldn't feel about a situation.  You'll find that this is exactly how these topics run so long.

Hence why I said "I believe..."  Just giving my perspective, dude.  Take some of your own advice.

As for Alistair becoming a drunk, it's your interpretation that it was due to guilt.  Getting screwed over for both the throne and having Duncan's killer accepted into the Wardens could do it, too.

I'd go for that, but for one thing, Alistair doesn't want the throne.  He only tries to seize it to kill Loghain.  His emotional outburst is due to Loghain's being recruited, which he unequivocably states in his pre-flight dialog.  (Gotta make sure those flaps are working).

Actually, that's not true. He takes the throne if you harden him and he comes to the conclusion it's his duty. It has NOTHING to do with being able to kill Loghain. He says that over and over again even BEFORE presented with the whole "we can spare Loghain and induct him into the Grey Wardens". He may not like it, but he'll do it because he DOES understand duty. And look at the situation from Alistair's perspective: he's see all the ruin that Loghain's actions have caused (Lothering, the Circle Tower etc) and until the very moment in the Landsmeet, the point of calling the Landsmeet was to bring Loghain to JUSTICE (and if you don't believe me, take a look at the diologue options when he first brings up Goldana, you call tell him that Loghain will get what's coming to him and he brushes that off. He's not excited about it or letting it drive him). Suddenly, he's presented with the idea of not only Loghain escaping justice but having to embrace Duncan's murderer as a brother. If you can claim you feel "betrayed" by him walking away, Alistair has similar grounds to feel betrayal considering up until this very moment, Alistair has stuck by the PC no matter what the PC's choices have been and if he agreed with them.  The only other being in your party with this much loyalty to the PC is the dog. And now your PC is telling Alistair: "suck it up, bro, all the bad things Loghain's done don't matter..." From that perspective it's a terrible betrayal by the PC, and he has every right to be bitter about it.

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

[Sabriana]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

You took the words right out of my mouth. That is the major reason I dislike the charcter for. He betrayed all of Ferelden. Duncan would have been furious, and Jory dies in vain if Alistair is allowed to live.

[Xandurpein]

Ariella wrote...

Actually, that's not true. He takes the throne if you harden him and he comes to the conclusion it's his duty. It has NOTHING to do with being able to kill Loghain. He says that over and over again even BEFORE presented with the whole "we can spare Loghain and induct him into the Grey Wardens". He may not like it, but he'll do it because he DOES understand duty. And look at the situation from Alistair's perspective: he's see all the ruin that Loghain's actions have caused (Lothering, the Circle Tower etc) and until the very moment in the Landsmeet, the point of calling the Landsmeet was to bring Loghain to JUSTICE (and if you don't believe me, take a look at the diologue options when he first brings up Goldana, you call tell him that Loghain will get what's coming to him and he brushes that off. He's not excited about it or letting it drive him). Suddenly, he's presented with the idea of not only Loghain escaping justice but having to embrace Duncan's murderer as a brother. If you can claim you feel "betrayed" by him walking away, Alistair has similar grounds to feel betrayal considering up until this very moment, Alistair has stuck by the PC no matter what the PC's choices have been and if he agreed with them.  The only other being in your party with this much loyalty to the PC is the dog. And now your PC is telling Alistair: "suck it up, bro, all the bad things Loghain's done don't matter..." From that perspective it's a terrible betrayal by the PC, and he has every right to be bitter about it.

If you play the game so that you do not try in anyway to convince or push him into becoming King at anytime and you let Anora become Queen solo, but kill Loghain, there is not ONE WORD of complaint from Alistair, he just sounds rather relieved.

If you do exactly as above, i.e. play the game so that you do not try in anyway to convince or push him into becoming King at anytime and you let Anora become Queen solo, but this time let Loghain live, Alistair will scream and demand to become King so he can kill Loghain.

I can't really see this as anything but a proof that Alistair is willing to become King solely to be able to kill Loghain.

[Joshd21]

Allister, is bad...yeah

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Actually, that's not true. He takes the throne if you harden him and he comes to the conclusion it's his duty. It has NOTHING to do with being able to kill Loghain. He says that over and over again even BEFORE presented with the whole "we can spare Loghain and induct him into the Grey Wardens". He may not like it, but he'll do it because he DOES understand duty. And look at the situation from Alistair's perspective: he's see all the ruin that Loghain's actions have caused (Lothering, the Circle Tower etc) and until the very moment in the Landsmeet, the point of calling the Landsmeet was to bring Loghain to JUSTICE (and if you don't believe me, take a look at the diologue options when he first brings up Goldana, you call tell him that Loghain will get what's coming to him and he brushes that off. He's not excited about it or letting it drive him). Suddenly, he's presented with the idea of not only Loghain escaping justice but having to embrace Duncan's murderer as a brother. If you can claim you feel "betrayed" by him walking away, Alistair has similar grounds to feel betrayal considering up until this very moment, Alistair has stuck by the PC no matter what the PC's choices have been and if he agreed with them.  The only other being in your party with this much loyalty to the PC is the dog. And now your PC is telling Alistair: "suck it up, bro, all the bad things Loghain's done don't matter..." From that perspective it's a terrible betrayal by the PC, and he has every right to be bitter about it.

If you play the game so that you do not try in anyway to convince or push him into becoming King at anytime and you let Anora become Queen solo, but kill Loghain, there is not ONE WORD of complaint from Alistair, he just sounds rather relieved.

If you do exactly as above, i.e. play the game so that you do not try in anyway to convince or push him into becoming King at anytime and you let Anora become Queen solo, but this time let Loghain live, Alistair will scream and demand to become King so he can kill Loghain.

I can't really see this as anything but a proof that Alistair is willing to become King solely to be able to kill Loghain.

This is my experience as well.  He flew into a fit and claimed the throne simply to kill Loghain, which is also, btw, where Anora gets to try to kill him.  PC can stop that, but Alistair will go get drunk.

[Xandurpein]

Joshd21 wrote...

Allister, is bad...yeah

I don't think of him as bad really. He's weak in many ways, but it's OK to like someone who have weak spots. I am in fact delighted that my wife is one of those who can accept flawed persons. But under certain circumstances Alistair's weakness can lead to some disastrous results. What I have a very hard time accepting is that some people don't want to see that this behaviour is a weakness at all, and try to make make up things that somehow would prove that he is spotless, even if he abandons the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[Creature 1]

I have a new grudge against him:  Jack finished the game yesterday and asked as a boon for the Howes to be punished.  Jack previously told Howe that he would kill his wife and daughter.  So Alistair took away their title and lands.  And gave the lands not to Jack, but to the Wardens.  What's the point in having the king as your bestest buddy if he can't even decapitate a couple of women for you? 

If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. 

Modifié par Creature 1, 06 janvier 2010 - 12:33 .

[Ariella]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

Disappointment is a rather light word for what Alistair must be feeling at the moment you say "yeah sure, we'll keep Loghain around."

Id say more rage and betrayal. And you ARE bregruding him considering you've basically said to Alistair his opinion on the matter means jack. FRom the perspective of that moment: what can four grey wardens do that three can't? I personally don't see where anyone can justify that especially considering propective number 4 killed OFF the entire order in Fereldan in the first place. Not exactly a recommendation. The one line he can't get himself to cross right now and still be true to who he is, and you're asking him to cross it. You're asking him to ignore all the dead at Ostagar, at Lothering, all the blighted lands of Fereldan. To ignore what happened in the Circle tower, and violate any true sense of justice to bring into the Grey Wardens someone of questionable loyalty and worth who murdered one of Alistair's father figures, and nearly murdered other. How anyone could ASK that of a friend is unconscienable to me.

And at this point in time (the Landsmeet) we don't know that one grey warden might make the difference more or less, but Alistair does know he cannot work with Loghain. He cannot embrace this man as a brother if Loghain survives the joining. So he does the ony thing he can do and walks away, thus removing a possible divisive element in the party.

I'm not sure if David Gaider did this purposely, but it seems to me he gave Alistair more than just Xander Harris' speech patterns. Xander will go miles out of his way to protect the people he cares about... even, and one might say especially from himself. It's why Xander walked away from Anya at their wedding and its why Alistair walks away from the group at the Landsmeet, because staying would tear everyone in two,

[Naamah_bb]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

You mean the same duty that Loghain had to help and protect his king? You can't judge one character and forgive another. I strongly believe if you play the game so that you forgive Loghain then you're not playing a human (or elf, dwarf ) person. I know that I would definetly take revenge on a person such as Loghain. 

[Xandurpein]

Naamah_bb wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

You mean the same duty that Loghain had to help and protect his king? You can't judge one character and forgive another. I strongly believe if you play the game so that you forgive Loghain then you're not playing a human (or elf, dwarf ) person. I know that I would definetly take revenge on a person such as Loghain. 

And you misunderstand me. I CAN forgive him for what he did, very much so. My argument is with those who claim there is nothing to forgive. It's hard to debate with people from a player perspective, when the debate keeps slipping into a roleplay character perspective. I suppose I can explain my position from a roleplay perspective too.

In my first play I married Anora, let Loghain live and then had Loghain kill the Archdemon. My character never forgave Loghain personally. I thought it would be best for Ferelden if he was allowed to join the Grey Wardens, but that didn't mean I forgave him. In the end I was happy to let him die, and gained a measure of respect for his decision, but if I ever had done the Dark Ritual, things would have never been anything but very frosty between my character and Loghain afterwards. My character genuinly mourned Alistair's choice and would probably forgiven him and begged his forgiveness too right away if he ever had asked for it, but he didn't. So in all I forgave Alistair a lot more easily than Loghain, but I did what my character thought was right.

I'm not saying this is the RIGHT way to play, that is ridiculous as there is no right way to play. It was what felt right to me. It doesn't mea anything really though, as I can be as consistent or inconsistent as I want when I roleplay. My roleplaying really doesn't say anything about Alistair.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[Sabriana]

Xandurpein wrote...

I'm not saying this is the RIGHT way to play, that is ridiculous as there is no right way to play. It was what felt right to me. It doesn't mea anything really though, as I can be as consistent or inconsistent as I want when I roleplay. My roleplaying really doesn't say anything about Alistair.

And that's the truth. From my perspective role-player view, my noble never forgave Loghain, but she did what was best for the whole of the country. She'd deal with any repercussions coming from that decision later, giving that there was a "later" to be had.

Loghain, as a person, comes across to me, personally, as someone who once committed to a cause will stick to it come hell or high water. Heck, he swore an oath to keep Orlais away from Ferelden, and look what dastardly deeds he committed in order to keep that oath. My PC holds him personally as ultimately responsible for the massacre and destruction that took place at Highever. Yet, from my role-playing perspective, he was needed. Every Grey Warden was needed. He had a big hand in the destruction of the GWs at Ostagar (even though Duncan mentions that they were a mere handfull), so making him take up their duty was acceptable to her.

In the conversation with Zevran (which by the way I find utterly hilarious), he states that he has no more power, no more titles, no more armed forces, no more commands at all, and that he is to be known simply as a Grey Warden now.

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

Loghain, as a person, comes across to me, personally, as someone who once committed to a cause will stick to it come hell or high water. Heck, he swore an oath to keep Orlais away from Ferelden, and look what dastardly deeds he committed in order to keep that oath.

Exactly, and that is why I was willing to let him become a Grey Warden. He would litterally do Anything to save Ferelden. I knew that all I needed to do to make him loyal was to make him believe what I did was to try and save Ferelden.