555 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Incidentally, I never do the Dark Ritual on the playthroughs when I let Loghain live. I don't want him there at post-coronation...

[robertthebard]

Naamah_bb wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I have seen variants of this argument so many times. Let me just say that I for one  NEVER begrudged him the right to feel disappointed in the PC for letting Loghain live. That never has been the question. The question is that he ought to have done his duty for the Grey Wardens, even he is no longer the friend of the player anymore. It is not ME he betrays by quitting. It's every living being in Ferelden he quits on, because he's mad at ME. While understandable on a human level, it still doesn't make it right.

You mean the same duty that Loghain had to help and protect his king? You can't judge one character and forgive another. I strongly believe if you play the game so that you forgive Loghain then you're not playing a human (or elf, dwarf ) person. I know that I would definetly take revenge on a person such as Loghain. 

I am starting to see a pattern here.  Allowing Loghain to live is not forgiving him.  Alistair betrays everyone as well, and if he is allowed to live, goes and gets drunk.  He can be killed at this point, and the PC even gets a "Finally" line, or something like that.  So allowing him to live is the same as saying; "It's all good bro', no harm no foul."?  Killing him isn't justice.  If you allow Alistair to fight the duel, he violates the conditions of the duel by killing Loghain outright, in a duel that is supposed to be until one party or the other yields.  Revenge is not justice.  Barring metagaming, there is no way to know that Loghain will survive the Joining.  After all, at our Joining, 50% of the people who drank the blood died.  I sincerely believe that there should have been a chance that Loghain dies in the Joining, so that Alistair would also know how his actions did adversely affect the odds of Ferelden surviving the Blight.  He's a plot device, and therefore can't die, but as characters, you have no way to know that.

To directly address what you said in your quote, why not?  You will condemn Loghain, but forgive Alistair.  The "It's not the same thing" arguement is empty.  Betrayal of the Grey Wardens, and Ferelden is the same thing, and this is what Alistair does if you spare Loghain, and he leaves.  He betrays everything.  It's sad that this is true, and isn't even high up on my list of reasons to dislike him.  It is also sad, however, that people can say that no matter what, Alistair is good, and Loghain is bad.  Loghain is bad, I have never tried to stipulate that he wasn't, and have in fact been firmly in the corner of he's bad, and he has plotted from before the battle of Ostagar to get where he is by the Landsmeet. 

The part that puzzles me are the people that metagame the Landsmeet, and then claim that only their views are accurate.  This is what lead to my statement about this not being a FPS.  In a FPS, the lines are clear, you do this because xxx is the bad guy/girl/thing.  Here, the Blight is the bad guy/girl/thing, and as a Grey Warden, it is your duty, whether you wanted it or not, to stop the Blight.  The fact that stating the Blight is the enemy, not Orlais gains you points at the Landsmeet, but "You left the King to die" loses points at the Landsmeet should speak volumes.  As Eamon states, it is an accusation made without proof.  That Loghain is paranoid beyond belief about Orlais is clear, he cements that view at the Landsmeet by asking if the Orlesians will even deign to send troops, or just rule through puppet Alistair.  What's really sad is that, although it's not Orlais, Alistair is always a puppet.  Either Anora rules outright, with Alistair to temper her, or Eamon or the PC rule through him.  So in a sense, Loghain was right, somebody is pulling his strings.  He is a figurehead, and nothing else, which shouldn't be surprising, since Eamon only insists he's the best option because he's Maric's son.  Blood is more important than ability.

[Sabriana]

Xandurpein wrote...

Incidentally, I never do the Dark Ritual on the playthroughs when I let Loghain live. I don't want him there at post-coronation...

I did, just the one time. Only to see the reactions of Loghain. The conversation between Morrigan and Loghain is short but hilarious, and the look of pure disgust on his face as she struts toward him to the bed is priceless.

I did reload to have him die for the GWs and Ferelden, because my PC feels that this is the only way for Loghain to redeem himself.

[robertthebard]

Sabriana wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Incidentally, I never do the Dark Ritual on the playthroughs when I let Loghain live. I don't want him there at post-coronation...

I did, just the one time. Only to see the reactions of Loghain. The conversation between Morrigan and Loghain is short but hilarious, and the look of pure disgust on his face as she struts toward him to the bed is priceless.

I did reload to have him die for the GWs and Ferelden, because my PC feels that this is the only way for Loghain to redeem himself.

The only time I've done the ritual was with Loghain, on a female PC.  I had him rebuild the GW's after, and went to Orlais with Leliana to shop for shoes.  Well, technically, the epilog says we traveled for a time, but that's where we went.

[nos_astra]

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."



Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

[Apophis2412]

It basically comes down to this:



1. Loghain makes a great Grey Warden. Since there is a Blight to defeat, what he did is irrelevant. If it weren't for the Blight I probably woudln't even have bothered with the Fereldan civil war, the werewolf curse and the Orzammar succession crisis.

2. By leaving the Grey Wardens at the end of the Landsmeet Alistair betrayed everyone living in Ferelden. This once again illustrates how bad he is at being a Grey Warden.

3. On the other hand the player is acting stupid, believing that Alistair would accept Loghain in the Warden ranks.

[Sabriana]

Around (or even in) the joining, Duncan also says that they pick only those who he deems best suited to survive the joining. At my PCs joining, 2 out of 3 died. Granted, Jory died because he wanted to leave, they seem to have an "only Jory dies when trying to leave" law, but that's essentially all that matters. That they have a chance to survive the joining.

Other than that, all you have to be is a good fighter, and be able to show some dedication.

Duncan himself was a criminal.

Daveth is a criminal (granted, neither was as bad as Loghain, but they were also not lily-white knights in shining armour)

They don't have anything against blood magic

Alistair himself denies that the GWs are "Knights or Heroes"



If you can fight, and it looks as if you have a decent chance to survive the joining, you're in.

[robertthebard]

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Or not recruiting Nan?  Or the orphan boy in Lothering, or the boy that Dog brings you in Denerim, or any of the hookers from the Pearl?  I could make a list of people in game that shouldn't be recruited, based solely on their lack of combat experience.

Tell me then, why did he recruit the mage that sided with Jowan in the Mage Origin?  Blood Magic is evil, and Ferelden would be up in arms, not to metion crossing the Chantry.  Why recruit the City Elf, that just killed an Arl's son?  I don't suppose the Nobles might question that, and isn't it convenient that the Arl isn't there when it happens, to see what attempting to invoke the Right can cause?  What did Duncan save Daveth from?  Why recruit a Dalish Elf, simply because they are about to die from the Taint?  Charity?  Because they showed promise as warriors?  Do you suppose he would turn Loghain down if the oppurtunity presented itself?  I suppose you do, despite the criteria for recruits you know about being they are supposed to be great warriors.  So, it's your position then that despite the history of Ferelden we can get simply from playing the game, that Loghain wasn't a great warrior?

[Apophis2412]

Sabriana wrote...

Around (or even in) the joining, Duncan also says that they pick only those who he deems best suited to survive the joining. At my PCs joining, 2 out of 3 died. Granted, Jory died because he wanted to leave, they seem to have an "only Jory dies when trying to leave" law, but that's essentially all that matters. That they have a chance to survive the joining.
Other than that, all you have to be is a good fighter, and be able to show some dedication.
Duncan himself was a criminal.
Daveth is a criminal (granted, neither was as bad as Loghain, but they were also not lily-white knights in shining armour)
They don't have anything against blood magic
Alistair himself denies that the GWs are "Knights or Heroes"

If you can fight, and it looks as if you have a decent chance to survive the joining, you're in.

As Riordan put it: [...] It's not a matter of what we like, it's a matter of what we must do. [...] We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits: Anyone with the skill and the mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us.

[Cybercat999]

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

[eschilde]

I am starting to see a pattern here. Allowing Loghain to live is not forgiving him. Alistair betrays everyone as well, and if he is allowed to live, goes and gets drunk. He can be killed at this point, and the PC even gets a "Finally" line, or something like that. So allowing him to live is the same as saying; "It's all good bro', no harm no foul."? Killing him isn't justice. If you allow Alistair to fight the duel, he violates the conditions of the duel by killing Loghain outright, in a duel that is supposed to be until one party or the other yields. Revenge is not justice. Barring metagaming, there is no way to know that Loghain will survive the Joining. After all, at our Joining, 50% of the people who drank the blood died. I sincerely believe that there should have been a chance that Loghain dies in the Joining, so that Alistair would also know how his actions did adversely affect the odds of Ferelden surviving the Blight. He's a plot device, and therefore can't die, but as characters, you have no way to know that.

I agree with you on most of this statement, except for the part where Alistair violates the condition of the duel. You don't get an option to stop him, but he clearly has your approval before chopping Loghain's head off with the two-handed execution sword of doom >.> He does stop fighting when Loghain yields, it's not like he keeps going at him while Loghain's trying to talk. Also, Riordan doesn't interrupt this scene so there's never an option to recruit him if you let Alistair fight, anyway. If Riordan didn't interrupt you, Loghain's only option would have been death anyway.

Edit: On that note, I thought the reason you couldn't recruit anyone into the Wardens, besides that conscripting too much hurts the GW's cause, was because you didn't have archdemon blood for the Joining? So what, if you let anyone besides Alistair fight the duel with Loghain, Riordan pulls a stash out of his ass, and otherwise the blood is gone forever (until you kill the archdemon for this blight)?

Modifié par eschilde, 06 janvier 2010 - 03:59 .

[Ariella]

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

Honestly, the truth of the matter is Loghain's presence as a Grey Warden so nessesary to end the Blight that it
superseded





superseded justice and the stability of Fereldan post Blight, especially considering there are other viable candidates for the Joining in Denerim at the time (Cauthen if you let her live for example or Gorim). In general, if it's a case of bodies needed who have the skill and will to survive there are several others who aren't charged with treason against their lord and sovereign. I have yet to see where any of Loghain's much lauded skill is truly so needed that it keeps his head on his shoulders.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

Honestly, the truth of the matter is Loghain's presence as a Grey Warden so nessesary to end the Blight that it
superseded





superseded justice and the stability of Fereldan post Blight, especially considering there are other viable candidates for the Joining in Denerim at the time (Cauthen if you let her live for example or Gorim). In general, if it's a case of bodies needed who have the skill and will to survive there are several others who aren't charged with treason against their lord and sovereign. I have yet to see where any of Loghain's much lauded skill is truly so needed that it keeps his head on his shoulders.

It's not much of a reach.  Loghain truly does see it that way, which feeds into his dementia.  However, despite telling us how we should role play our game, what is your point?  If we agree with the senior grey warden in Ferelden at the time, that there are compelling reasons to have as many wardens as possible, and that Loghain makes an excellent candidate, why would they not agree?  After all, if you're playing any elven origin, that's how you wound up in the position to make the choice in the first place.  He doesn't offer the Joining to the Dalish elf out of compassion, but because he recognizes that you may well survive the Joining, since you recovered, partially, from the taint, and that you are an above average at least warrior.  City elves didn't exactly win a Lord's tournament to be considered, although a dwarven commoner indeed does just that.  Catching the theme here?  If you can fight, and have a chance of completing the Joining, you're a recruit.

Regarding recruiting just anyone, it's not like you can just go to the corner Alchemy shop and buy Archdemon blood for the Joining.

[Sabriana]

That's not really reaching far. Loghain is super paranoid about everything Orlais, and he has extremely good reasons to be paranoid (it's in the book, but I forget which one). He swore an oath to keep Orlais out of Ferelden, and he's trying to keep that oath. He does horrible things in the process, but he's no mustache twirling, madly cackling black hat bad guy.

My noble did not forgive him, but thought it best to go with Riordan's suggestion. Now, in my play-throughs he always dies, giving his life for Ferelden and the Grey Wardens, but he's one heck of a swordsman, and my noble was not about to pass that up.



He almost snapped Anora's head off when she mentions Orlais, and Cailan not only throws Orlais in his face, but makes excuses for using their chevaliers.

Again, anything can be dealt with after the Blight. Because if they can't slay the archdemon, there will be no "after". Never, ever.

Riordan suggests Loghain. Loghain is many bad things, but he is a very good fighter.

Sure, Cauthrien would also be a good choice, but the most senior GW suggests Loghain for several reasons. If Cuthrien declines, she has to be forced, but Loghain is all out of choices.

Gorim is injured, his knees are busted. That's why he had to become a merchant in Denerim.

[Vicious]

Who cares about Loghain's craziness. The fact is he makes an excellent Grey Warden if you let him live.



Alistair will get over himself later, [just not in-game]



And the Grey Wardens are stronger for it.

[IPerrin]

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

Honestly, the truth of the matter is Loghain's presence as a Grey Warden so nessesary to end the Blight that it
superseded





superseded justice and the stability of Fereldan post Blight, especially considering there are other viable candidates for the Joining in Denerim at the time (Cauthen if you let her live for example or Gorim). In general, if it's a case of bodies needed who have the skill and will to survive there are several others who aren't charged with treason against their lord and sovereign. I have yet to see where any of Loghain's much lauded skill is truly so needed that it keeps his head on his shoulders.

  It's needed because you only have 3 grey wardens at the landsmeet and 4 would be so much better, and he definately has the necessary skills.  If I could only invoke the right of conscription on the likes of Ser Cauthrien, Gorim, Jowan and my own companions then I could agree with you.  Alas, the game is not designed that way.

[Cybercat999]

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

O rly? So if I can understand why the "bad guy" in some video game came to be a bad guy I am going to hurt myself? You do that often? Because I dont - I have every right to percieve my game and its characters any damn way I please.
If you are unable to see things from the point of view the people you dont like, you could hurt yourself much more imo.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Or not recruiting Nan?  Or the orphan boy in Lothering, or the boy that Dog brings you in Denerim, or any of the hookers from the Pearl?  I could make a list of people in game that shouldn't be recruited, based solely on their lack of combat experience.

Tell me then, why did he recruit the mage that sided with Jowan in the Mage Origin?  Blood Magic is evil, and Ferelden would be up in arms, not to metion crossing the Chantry.  Why recruit the City Elf, that just killed an Arl's son?  I don't suppose the Nobles might question that, and isn't it convenient that the Arl isn't there when it happens, to see what attempting to invoke the Right can cause?  What did Duncan save Daveth from?  Why recruit a Dalish Elf, simply because they are about to die from the Taint?  Charity?  Because they showed promise as warriors?  Do you suppose he would turn Loghain down if the oppurtunity presented itself?  I suppose you do, despite the criteria for recruits you know about being they are supposed to be great warriors.  So, it's your position then that despite the history of Ferelden we can get simply from playing the game, that Loghain wasn't a great warrior?

Surely you don't think you can really compare a mage who thought he was helping a friend, not a blood mage, or a city elf who was trying to save his friends and fiance to Loghain, do you? Or even a thieving Daveth or Duncan. Not a single person you mentioned has come even close to committing the level of crimes that Loghain has committed. Usually your arguments have merit but this one does not. At all.

And all of these people can either die next week or be locked up forever OR they can possibly live another 30 years fighting against darkspawn. Of course they all have the ability to fight. None of your examples proves in anyway that Loghain MUST be recruited or you're not being true to Duncan and the GWs.

Oh and another thing... none of those recruited were crazy. I've yet to see one of you deny that he was either.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

Honestly, the truth of the matter is Loghain's presence as a Grey Warden so nessesary to end the Blight that it superseded justice and the stability of Fereldan post Blight, especially considering there are other viable candidates for the Joining in Denerim at the time (Cauthen if you let her live for example or Gorim). In general, if it's a case of bodies needed who have the skill and will to survive there are several others who aren't charged with treason against their lord and sovereign. I have yet to see where any of Loghain's much lauded skill is truly so needed that it keeps his head on his shoulders.

It's not much of a reach.  Loghain truly does see it that way, which feeds into his dementia.  However, despite telling us how we should role play our game, what is your point? 

You are reaching if you're using an insane man's logic to claim that the King of Fereldan committed treason. The original quote was that Cailan technically committed treason when he allied with Orlais. Considering a) Orlais' been at peace with Fereldan for 20 years Grey Wardens are technically neutral no matter where they're from, there's absolutely no case for treason except in Loghain's diseased mind.

All you're proving is that Loghain is nuttier than a fruitcake and shouldn't be responsible for lining up kindergardeners let alone commanding an army.

If we agree with the senior grey warden in Ferelden at the time, that there are compelling reasons to have as many wardens as possible, and that Loghain makes an excellent candidate, why would they not agree?  After all, if you're playing any elven origin, that's how you wound up in the position to make the choice in the first place.  He doesn't offer the Joining to the Dalish elf out of compassion, but because he recognizes that you may well survive the Joining, since you recovered, partially, from the taint, and that you are an above average at least warrior.  City elves didn't exactly win a Lord's tournament to be considered, although a dwarven commoner indeed does just that.  Catching the theme here?  If you can fight, and have a chance of completing the Joining, you're a recruit.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in Bejing? We're talking about someone who allowed the Blight to continue and is most likely insane. Plus said senior Grey Warden has not been actively working against Loghain since the fall of Ostagar, giving those who HAVE a potentially different perspective on bringing Loghain into the Wardens.

Regarding recruiting just anyone, it's not like you can just go to the corner Alchemy shop and buy Archdemon blood for the Joining.

I didn't say just anyone. I pointed out that there were less controversial candidates who had skill and will to be Grey Wardens and that from everything I have seen there is no evidence that it HAS to be Loghain to turn the tide against the darkspawn, especially since there's post Blight Fereldan politics to consider, something when I play my human noble is pretty much tied for first place in her mind with ending the blight.

But in general I have yet to see an argument that proves that Loghain is more than just another body in the ranks of the Grey Wardens and that considering there are other viable candidates why a traitor to the crown and a lunatic needs to be the one inducted into the ranks.

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

HOW DARE YOU INSULT ALISTAR alistr OWNS

[Ariella]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

O rly? So if I can understand why the "bad guy" in some video game came to be a bad guy I am going to hurt myself? You do that often? Because I dont - I have every right to percieve my game and its characters any damn way I please.
If you are unable to see things from the point of view the people you dont like, you could hurt yourself much more imo.

You are using a crazy man's logic to justify yourself. That's a major stretch.

I have no problem seeing other points of view based on regular logic, but using the "logic" of the insane never works out well.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Surely you don't think you can really compare a mage who thought he was helping a friend, not a blood mage, or a city elf who was trying to save his friends and fiance to Loghain, do you? Or even a thieving Daveth or Duncan. Not a single person you mentioned has come even close to committing the level of crimes that Loghain has committed.
Oh and another thing... none of those recruited were crazy. I've yet to see one of you deny that he was either.

And yet have they come to committing the great things that he has done either? No...

Hmm, did they help lead a rebel army against the occupying forces of the Orlesians and drive them out of Ferelden? No, have they been at the forefront of ensuring the nation wasn't invaded again? No.

Loghain has.

Oh and ignoring 'warden' recruits for a minute and bringing it more to a player party level. To quote the Loghain haters most favourite party member.

More crazy... I thought we were all full up.

How many of you Loghain haters recruited Leliana or more to the point, Zevran?

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Surely you don't think you can really compare a mage who thought he was helping a friend, not a blood mage, or a city elf who was trying to save his friends and fiance to Loghain, do you? Or even a thieving Daveth or Duncan. Not a single person you mentioned has come even close to committing the level of crimes that Loghain has committed. Usually your arguments have merit but this one does not. At all.

And all of these people can either die next week or be locked up forever OR they can possibly live another 30 years fighting against darkspawn. Of course they all have the ability to fight. None of your examples proves in anyway that Loghain MUST be recruited or you're not being true to Duncan and the GWs.

Oh and another thing... none of those recruited were crazy. I've yet to see one of you deny that he was either.

My response was to the Grey Wardens not taking just anybody, and despite how people may feel about Loghain, myself included, he's not "just anybody".  However, if we're going to go the route of Noble and Honorable Grey Wardens, then none of the people on my previous list should be included, and we can add to that Duncan, since he wasn't exactly a saint prior to becoming a Grey Warden, and surely wasn't one after, see Human Noble Origin.  Most people assume Duncan to be a monster for killing Jory.  So mainly, because Loghain pissed Alistair off by killing Duncan, we can ignore the fact that if people are within the standards of recruitment, we can simply ignore that, despite the Blight that is currently ravaging our lands, that, going with this Noble and Honorable Grey Warden line, we are obligated to stop at all costs, even if that cost is the injury of one man's pride.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

We had the discussion on this thread, I believe. I just replayed the human noble origin and had a little talk with Duncan. He explained: "The Grey Wardens do not simply recruit anybody..."

Ah, so they can be picky, if they think it's appropriate? Like deciding not to let an enemy and a traitor join?

Technically, Cailan is the traitor for siding with Orlais in Loghains eyes.

If you're going to reach that far, you're going to hurt yourself.

O rly? So if I can understand why the "bad guy" in some video game came to be a bad guy I am going to hurt myself? You do that often? Because I dont - I have every right to percieve my game and its characters any damn way I please.
If you are unable to see things from the point of view the people you dont like, you could hurt yourself much more imo.

You are using a crazy man's logic to justify yourself. That's a major stretch.

I have no problem seeing other points of view based on regular logic, but using the "logic" of the insane never works out well.

And you are missing the entire point of her post. Who are you to dictate what a player chooses? You got your opinion, she has hers, let her have it, stop trying to dictate she shouldn't do what she wants.

[robertthebard]

Discussion of this is really pointless. It's coming down to "If you don't roleplay the way I do, you're playing the game wrong". Peace.