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[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...

It basically comes down to this:

1. Loghain makes a great Grey Warden. Since there is a Blight to defeat, what he did is irrelevant. If it weren't for the Blight I probably woudln't even have bothered with the Fereldan civil war, the werewolf curse and the Orzammar succession crisis.
2. By leaving the Grey Wardens at the end of the Landsmeet Alistair betrayed everyone living in Ferelden. This once again illustrates how bad he is at being a Grey Warden.
3. On the other hand the player is acting stupid, believing that Alistair would accept Loghain in the Warden ranks.

1. A lot of people make great Grey Wardens. the crux of hte matter is - WHY Loghain?  No one has yet given a satisfactory answer to that. You don't need Loghain, he ISN'T necessary and making him a GW isn't justice. Having him hang is justice. Having him thrown to a prison forever is jsutice. Killing him outright is MERCY.

2. That depends on how you define betrayl and who betrays whom. Does Al know that by leaving he is dooming Ferelden? No. Does he want to doom Ferelden? No. Does he HAVE to save Ferelden? No.
Point is, he doesn't owe anyonebody anything...unless of course you're thinking he ows it to the GW's. Possibly. I don't recall anyone ever making any OATHS...If you want to get technical.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
 Why recruit a Dalish Elf, simply because they are about to die from the Taint?  Charity?  Because they showed promise as warriors?  Do you suppose he would turn Loghain down if the oppurtunity presented itself?  I suppose you do, despite the criteria for recruits you know about being they are supposed to be great warriors.  So, it's your position then that despite the history of Ferelden we can get simply from playing the game, that Loghain wasn't a great warrior?

And yet skill with a blade is not nearly the only criteria, or else we would have a lot more Grey Wardens and most of them would be knights. But the point is moot.
You and Al are the Grey Wardens of Ferelden. How some other Grey Wardens do their businss is their problem. You don't have to act like Duncan or Rhiordan or Grey Warden X. There is no strict rulebook for GW's.

[Ariella]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Thing is what Loghain believes and what is actual FACT are two different things.

Fact: A darkspawn horde has formed. First in a very long time.
Fact: said horde has to be beaten back
Fact: the king has called in the Grey Wardens of Orlais as backup because there aren't enough Grey Wardens in Fereldan
Fact: Loghain did nothing to check the horde while he was esstablishing himself in Denerim
Fact: Loghain ordered the abandoning of Lothering

These are the FACTS and they are beyond dispute. I don't see where Loghain's insane perceptions trump facts when it comes to establishing guilt and innocence.

FACT you clearly don't know much about tactical warfare if you are trying to use his ordering of Lothering to be abandoned as something against him and he was involved in a civil war and actually he WAS aware of the growing threat of the darkspawn, but there had been no FACTS to confirm it was a blight as the Archdemon never showed himself till it lead them to Denerim, so before you start trying to spout FACTS might want to think a bit harder

Also one other fact from previous blights, neighbouring territory forces have been sometimes known to dig in after blights and try to exploit the weakened country, so Loghain considering his past history with Orlais was spot on for keeping them out.

Fact: I do know a bit about tactical and strategic warfare. I also know that it was Loghain's duty to defend those people or at least provide some way for them to evacuate the area in an orderly fashion if it was impossible to defend Lothering. He had time and the men to do so, yet he doesn't do a damn thing just rushes to Denerim.

Fact: by the time we're at Ostagar the Blight has just started, a few months at most. The situations you happen to be referring to were where Blights had lasted YEARS, and said nations were so weak they couldn't defend themselves. If the plan to crush the horde at Ostagar was even partially successful, Fereldan would still be a strong stable nation.

And if you bother to read my facts, I never mention a blight in the first set. I say a horde, and I choose that word specifically BECAUSE there was no archdemon sighted at the point of Ostagar. It's still a horde of darkspawn, not just some ragtag band on a raid. It needs to either be crushed or in some other way dispursed. Yet Loghain does nothing to either protect the south from the horde or even provide for the refugees his actions create.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Thing is two grey wardens have been doing just fine so far, and now with Riordan recovered you have a third. There's no real numerical difference (militarily speaking) between 3 and 4, and from the information the game presents at the Landsmeet, I've yet to see any compelling evidence that Loghain would be such an asset to save himself from the headsman. Going on only what the PC knows at the Landsmeet I don't see the logic of sparing him, especially since it's been driven home that he's nuts. So in a choice between a sane Alistair who fought by my side the entire time and an insane Loghain who'd quite possible throw off the party dynamic and whom I'd have to watch closer than Zeveran... I take Alistair.

Your metagame knowledge of you can reload a save if you fail should not be an applicable excuse to not having every warden you can get. 

Thank you for putting words in my mouth again. I very specifically STATE that due to the information presented at the Landsmeet, I see no compelling reason why 3 wardens will not succeed where two have been doing fine so far.

You see, just because Alistair is instrumental in your playing of the game doesn't mean he's instrumental in mine.  He's keeping the camp fire lit, so I suppose that's important, but I'd imagine even Dog could keep that going.  You see, you're telling me I should play the game this certain way because it makes Alistair happy.  Alistair could leave my camp at any time he chose, and I wouldn't miss him.  My happy ending for Alistair?  Dead on the floor of the Landsmeet, because that's the first time I can kill him.  If I could kill him after he finally mans up and admits to being Maric's son, I would.  Is this shocking to you?  Does it surprise you to learn that I find the guy that could have minimized Loghain's influence by manning up to who he is before I already did all my treaties, and saved Eamon for last, since I don't have a treaty for him, thereby affecting what I would do first to be as much responsible for everything Loghain did after Ostagar as Loghain himself?

"I don't want people to look at me differently" is not an excuse for allowing a civil war to escalate.  "I prefer to follow" or "I dont want to be King, and never wanted it" is not an excuse for allowing the civil war to escalate.  The fact that Alistair metagames the knowledge, that the PC shouldn't have, that Eamon won't call a Landsmeet until you have your treaties isn't an excuse to hold out that information.  While true, it is is metagaming on the part of a party NPC.  You can gloss this over by the warm fuzzies he gives you if you wish.  I choose to take him at face value in my games, this is how I choose to play.  If my playstyle doesn't suit you, well, that's just too bad, for you.  I am not obligated to play this game your way, just as you are not obligated to play it my way.  However, coming into a thread specifically about disliking a character, and saying that we are deluding ourselves by role playing our game in such a way that is inconsistent with your views does not reflect poorly on anyone that's posting in the thread that agrees with the topic.  It instead reflects poorly on you, for trying to control how we feel, and trying to suggest that we are somehow wrong.

You're blaming the entire civil war on Alistair? This has nothing to do with player choice and everything to do with completely ignoring character back story AND what's going on in the world.

The civil war escalated without anyone having knowledge of Alistair, because they refused to fall in line the way Loghain wanted them to....

No matter what treaty you do, once you complete the first one, you get the Zeveran cutscene where Howe tells Loghain it's going to be civil war after all and their are calls from the Bannorn for him to step down. If ANYONE is at fault for allowing this civil war to escalate (besides Loghain and Howe) it's Anora. She the bloody queen, but she sits there looking like arm candy doing nothing except accepting Daddy's direction. No leadership, even though she's supposedly ruled the nation for 5 years behind the scenes. She's known most of the nobles for a while and worked with them and HAD to known how they'd respond to Daddy's ultimatium. But she sat and twittled her fingers until Fereldan burned down around her.

Even if Alistair "manned up" as you say, what position was he in to take the throne? If he had told you at Flemeth's hut, what could you do about the situation. The civil war is going to rage despite what you do, because the Bannorn isn't just going to fall in line for a man who's acting like Meghren of Orlais.

You also complain that Alistair "metagamed" his knowledge... Say WHAT? We're talking about someone who from an early age was told the throne was NOT for him, he was a possible THREAT to his half brother and been treated like some unwanted thing for most of his life. Why would ANYONE want to own up to that, especially when they have the chance to finally do something good and prove themselves on their own merits rather than preconceptions based on something they could never be anyway? What you call metagaming is actually a fundemental part of Alistair personality. If you don't like that... fine, but stop using your own metagame knowledge to blame him for something that the GAME doesn't allow you to do. The game is designed so that the civil war rages no matter what you do, and you can take part (there are a couple side quests to this end) or stick to getting the treaties and getting the army you need to end the Blight. But the revelation that Alistair is Maric's son at the moment you set out from Flemeth's wouldn't change much because A) who would believe you considering you're Grey Wardens with prices on your heads the armies you're gathering aren't going to fight in a Fereldan civil war (something confirmed by the Devs and if you don't want an in game reason why they won't: it's outside the scope of their treaties) so Alistair has no base to work from until you at least resolve the Redcliffe situation. So Alistair keeping it from your PC until REdcliffe doesn't change anything but potentially your PC's perception of him. There's nothing he could have done differently to stop this war or cool it down. He had neither the standing (he's illegitimate and no real connection to any noble family but Redcliffe) and he has no army, thus no way to enforce his will even if he wanted to.

All running around saying he was Maric's son, without legitimate noble backing, would have either gotten him laughed out of town or killed.

I can answer this in one line:  Alistair is Maric's son, and as such, should have come forward to tell the PC that, and that going to Eamon would be adviseable because then we could follow Morrigan's advice in Lothering, and go after Loghain directly, by calling a Landsmeet, and forcing the confrontation.  We could then pursue our treaties in relative peace.

This is how it ends up anyway, isn't it?  Amazing how one that's not metagaming could see this this when they eventually do get his confession, or have Eamon tell them, isn't it.  It's amazing the dimensions that can be added to a role playing game by role playing it.

[Addai]

eschilde wrote...

Loghain was paranoid to the point where his judgment was skewed, but there is no evidence he didn't know the difference between right and wrong. I don't think you can really call him crazy; he made proper judgment calls based on what he thought the situation was, which was not a completely outlandish scenario. The harsh decisions he made were no worse than ones you were given an opportunity to make (wiping out the Dalish camp, leaving Redcliffe to be overrun by undead, killing Fort Drakon guards.. supporting a civil war, allowing the Tevinter slavers to get away, letting Branka have the Anvil..) 

Skewed judgment, for a war general, is to say:  "Your Majesty, I refuse to take the field with you under these conditions because I believe you are endangering Ferelden.  I won't cooperate with this.  You're on your own."

Beyond-the-pale outrage is to say (think):  "The king is making a disastrously wrong call, therefore I am going to set him up such that both he, a large portion of the vanguard, and the entire Grey Warden force of Ferelden are going to be destroyed even though darkspawn are threatening the country.  Then I'll be able to grab power and do what I want."

IMO you simply can't compare Alistair's (admittedly too passionate) desire for justice against Loghain to what Loghain did.  Nor do any of the choices of the PC, even if they're horrendous ones like killing the Dalish, sink to that.  Hundreds, if not thousands, of people died and/or were turned to darkspawn not just because of Loghain's bad judgment, but because he deliberately set them up.

[IPerrin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

It basically comes down to this:

1. Loghain makes a great Grey Warden. Since there is a Blight to defeat, what he did is irrelevant. If it weren't for the Blight I probably woudln't even have bothered with the Fereldan civil war, the werewolf curse and the Orzammar succession crisis.
2. By leaving the Grey Wardens at the end of the Landsmeet Alistair betrayed everyone living in Ferelden. This once again illustrates how bad he is at being a Grey Warden.
3. On the other hand the player is acting stupid, believing that Alistair would accept Loghain in the Warden ranks.

1. A lot of people make great Grey Wardens. the crux of hte matter is - WHY Loghain?  No one has yet given a satisfactory answer to that. You don't need Loghain, he ISN'T necessary and making him a GW isn't justice. Having him hang is justice. Having him thrown to a prison forever is jsutice. Killing him outright is MERCY.

2. That depends on how you define betrayl and who betrays whom. Does Al know that by leaving he is dooming Ferelden? No. Does he want to doom Ferelden? No. Does he HAVE to save Ferelden? No.
Point is, he doesn't owe anyonebody anything...unless of course you're thinking he ows it to the GW's. Possibly. I don't recall anyone ever making any OATHS...If you want to get technical.

   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
 Why recruit a Dalish Elf, simply because they are about to die from the Taint?  Charity?  Because they showed promise as warriors?  Do you suppose he would turn Loghain down if the oppurtunity presented itself?  I suppose you do, despite the criteria for recruits you know about being they are supposed to be great warriors.  So, it's your position then that despite the history of Ferelden we can get simply from playing the game, that Loghain wasn't a great warrior?

And yet skill with a blade is not nearly the only criteria, or else we would have a lot more Grey Wardens and most of them would be knights. But the point is moot.
You and Al are the Grey Wardens of Ferelden. How some other Grey Wardens do their businss is their problem. You don't have to act like Duncan or Rhiordan or Grey Warden X. There is no strict rulebook for GW's.

Thank you for proving my point.  There is no set rule book, so why not recruit Loghain?

[Sialater]

Because Riordan doesn't decide. He says it's up to you and Alistair. Mostly you, as Warden Commander.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

I can answer this in one line:  Alistair is Maric's son, and as such, should have come forward to tell the PC that, and that going to Eamon would be adviseable because then we could follow Morrigan's advice in Lothering, and go after Loghain directly, by calling a Landsmeet, and forcing the confrontation.  We could then pursue our treaties in relative peace.

This is how it ends up anyway, isn't it?  Amazing how one that's not metagaming could see this this when they eventually do get his confession, or have Eamon tell them, isn't it.  It's amazing the dimensions that can be added to a role playing game by role playing it.

Yet you want Alistair to act OUT of CHARACTER for himself to achieve all of this. You don't want him to be Alistair.
 
For all your pious commentary about role play, you don't want the other character to be played they way THEY are developed. You want them to do what you want based on metagame knowlegde you have.

Modifié par Ariella, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:52 .

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

It basically comes down to this:

1. Loghain makes a great Grey Warden. Since there is a Blight to defeat, what he did is irrelevant. If it weren't for the Blight I probably woudln't even have bothered with the Fereldan civil war, the werewolf curse and the Orzammar succession crisis.
2. By leaving the Grey Wardens at the end of the Landsmeet Alistair betrayed everyone living in Ferelden. This once again illustrates how bad he is at being a Grey Warden.
3. On the other hand the player is acting stupid, believing that Alistair would accept Loghain in the Warden ranks.

1. A lot of people make great Grey Wardens. the crux of hte matter is - WHY Loghain?  No one has yet given a satisfactory answer to that. You don't need Loghain, he ISN'T necessary and making him a GW isn't justice. Having him hang is justice. Having him thrown to a prison forever is jsutice. Killing him outright is MERCY.

2. That depends on how you define betrayl and who betrays whom. Does Al know that by leaving he is dooming Ferelden? No. Does he want to doom Ferelden? No. Does he HAVE to save Ferelden? No.
Point is, he doesn't owe anyonebody anything...unless of course you're thinking he ows it to the GW's. Possibly. I don't recall anyone ever making any OATHS...If you want to get technical.

How does he not know?  That's a tissue paper weak argument.  Regarding oaths, isn't it convenient that in this discussion, in all it's permutations, you don't see one, yet when it comes to Morrigan's ritual, you do?

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I can answer this in one line:  Alistair is Maric's son, and as such, should have come forward to tell the PC that, and that going to Eamon would be adviseable because then we could follow Morrigan's advice in Lothering, and go after Loghain directly, by calling a Landsmeet, and forcing the confrontation.  We could then pursue our treaties in relative peace.

This is how it ends up anyway, isn't it?  Amazing how one that's not metagaming could see this this when they eventually do get his confession, or have Eamon tell them, isn't it.  It's amazing the dimensions that can be added to a role playing game by role playing it.

Yet you want Alistair to act OUT of CHARACTER for himself to achieve all of this. You don't want him to be Alistair.
 
For all your pious commentary about role play, you don't want the other character to be played they way THEY are developed. You want them to do what you want based on metagame knowlegde you have.

I expect him to be honest.  He isn't.

ETA:  I suppose that does make you right, though.  I expect him to do something that he is constitutionally incapable of, owning up to his responsibilities, something that he will not do until he knows he's going to have to face it anyway.

Modifié par robertthebard, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:54 .

[Ariella]

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

[IPerrin]

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

   The exact same reasoning Duncan used on me.  Stopping the blight supercedes justice.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

How about Eamon telling Alistair that if he's not willing to man up to his responsibilities, it's going to be necessary to surrender to Loghain w/out a Landsmeet in order to insure the survival of Ferelden?  Despite his ordeal, he's thinking about Ferelden first.  You see, if you end the Blight, justice can be meted out.  If you don't, it's a moot point, as Ferelden falls, and who did what is irrelevent.  Everybody is dead.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I can answer this in one line:  Alistair is Maric's son, and as such, should have come forward to tell the PC that, and that going to Eamon would be adviseable because then we could follow Morrigan's advice in Lothering, and go after Loghain directly, by calling a Landsmeet, and forcing the confrontation.  We could then pursue our treaties in relative peace.

This is how it ends up anyway, isn't it?  Amazing how one that's not metagaming could see this this when they eventually do get his confession, or have Eamon tell them, isn't it.  It's amazing the dimensions that can be added to a role playing game by role playing it.

Yet you want Alistair to act OUT of CHARACTER for himself to achieve all of this. You don't want him to be Alistair.
 
For all your pious commentary about role play, you don't want the other character to be played they way THEY are developed. You want them to do what you want based on metagame knowlegde you have.

I expect him to be honest.  He isn't.

ETA:  I suppose that does make you right, though.  I expect him to do something that he is constitutionally incapable of, owning up to his responsibilities, something that he will not do until he knows he's going to have to face it anyway.

You've known him for how long, and you expect him to tell you the deep dark secret he's never told anyone in his entire life? That's a bit much.

He does admit he was wrong when he does tell you, and admits that he should have told you before, and in doing this, he's overcoming a lifetime of being told that he HAS to keep this a secret. He apologizes for his mistake, something Loghain NEVER does. He doesn't see the throne as his responsibility because he's been told time and again he's never going to sit on it. You just can't seem to accept the fact, Robert, that at the point you're talking about you might as well ask Alistair to go to the moon as to Alistair's perception he has as much chance of getting there as being king.

Alistiar sees his duty as getting those treaties and managing to end the blight. That's where he believes his duty and his responsibility lay. He has no problem with that and in fact chafes at the fact that Duncan keeps him out of the fighting thus keeping him from doing his duty. It's only when Eamon breaks through those years of "you're not going to be king, don't even think about it" that Alistair accepts that this IS part of his duty. He doesn't like it, but he'll do it.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I can answer this in one line:  Alistair is Maric's son, and as such, should have come forward to tell the PC that, and that going to Eamon would be adviseable because then we could follow Morrigan's advice in Lothering, and go after Loghain directly, by calling a Landsmeet, and forcing the confrontation.  We could then pursue our treaties in relative peace.

This is how it ends up anyway, isn't it?  Amazing how one that's not metagaming could see this this when they eventually do get his confession, or have Eamon tell them, isn't it.  It's amazing the dimensions that can be added to a role playing game by role playing it.

Yet you want Alistair to act OUT of CHARACTER for himself to achieve all of this. You don't want him to be Alistair.
 
For all your pious commentary about role play, you don't want the other character to be played they way THEY are developed. You want them to do what you want based on metagame knowlegde you have.

I expect him to be honest.  He isn't.

ETA:  I suppose that does make you right, though.  I expect him to do something that he is constitutionally incapable of, owning up to his responsibilities, something that he will not do until he knows he's going to have to face it anyway.

You've known him for how long, and you expect him to tell you the deep dark secret he's never told anyone in his entire life? That's a bit much.

He does admit he was wrong when he does tell you, and admits that he should have told you before, and in doing this, he's overcoming a lifetime of being told that he HAS to keep this a secret. He apologizes for his mistake, something Loghain NEVER does. He doesn't see the throne as his responsibility because he's been told time and again he's never going to sit on it. You just can't seem to accept the fact, Robert, that at the point you're talking about you might as well ask Alistair to go to the moon as to Alistair's perception he has as much chance of getting there as being king.

Alistiar sees his duty as getting those treaties and managing to end the blight. That's where he believes his duty and his responsibility lay. He has no problem with that and in fact chafes at the fact that Duncan keeps him out of the fighting thus keeping him from doing his duty. It's only when Eamon breaks through those years of "you're not going to be king, don't even think about it" that Alistair accepts that this IS part of his duty. He doesn't like it, but he'll do it.

...and yet, he's known me for how long, and he's willing to dump responsibility for saving Ferelden in my lap?  Yeah yeah, game mechanics, that's surely not metagaming?  Yet, with trusting me to do all the "right" things to save Ferelden, he feels perfectly justified to do the "wrong" thing, something he even admits to if you press him.  Sorry, but those are his words, "I know I should have told you sooner, but I was afraid...".

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

How about Eamon telling Alistair that if he's not willing to man up to his responsibilities, it's going to be necessary to surrender to Loghain w/out a Landsmeet in order to insure the survival of Ferelden?  Despite his ordeal, he's thinking about Ferelden first.  You see, if you end the Blight, justice can be meted out.  If you don't, it's a moot point, as Ferelden falls, and who did what is irrelevent.  Everybody is dead.

Did you ever stop to consider that Eamon does this because Alistair has been told time and time again that he'll never be on the throne so many times he's come to believe it deeply. Eamon uses this to break Alistair out of that mode of though by presenting him with the unthinkable.

And what does this have to do with sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet? They are two seperate issues.

[IPerrin]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

How about Eamon telling Alistair that if he's not willing to man up to his responsibilities, it's going to be necessary to surrender to Loghain w/out a Landsmeet in order to insure the survival of Ferelden?  Despite his ordeal, he's thinking about Ferelden first.  You see, if you end the Blight, justice can be meted out.  If you don't, it's a moot point, as Ferelden falls, and who did what is irrelevent.  Everybody is dead.

Did you ever stop to consider that Eamon does this because Alistair has been told time and time again that he'll never be on the throne so many times he's come to believe it deeply. Eamon uses this to break Alistair out of that mode of though by presenting him with the unthinkable.

And what does this have to do with sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet? They are two seperate issues.

   We're talking about reasons to hate Alistair, and one of them happens to be his betrayal of you at the landsmeet, which only happens if you spare Loghain.  Nothing wrong with directing the thread back away from loghain, he is the side issue in this conversation, not alistair.

[eschilde]

Addai67 wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Loghain was paranoid to the point where his judgment was skewed, but there is no evidence he didn't know the difference between right and wrong. I don't think you can really call him crazy; he made proper judgment calls based on what he thought the situation was, which was not a completely outlandish scenario. The harsh decisions he made were no worse than ones you were given an opportunity to make (wiping out the Dalish camp, leaving Redcliffe to be overrun by undead, killing Fort Drakon guards.. supporting a civil war, allowing the Tevinter slavers to get away, letting Branka have the Anvil..) 

Skewed judgment, for a war general, is to say:  "Your Majesty, I refuse to take the field with you under these conditions because I believe you are endangering Ferelden.  I won't cooperate with this.  You're on your own."

Beyond-the-pale outrage is to say (think):  "The king is making a disastrously wrong call, therefore I am going to set him up such that both he, a large portion of the vanguard, and the entire Grey Warden force of Ferelden are going to be destroyed even though darkspawn are threatening the country.  Then I'll be able to grab power and do what I want."

IMO you simply can't compare Alistair's (admittedly too passionate) desire for justice against Loghain to what Loghain did.  Nor do any of the choices of the PC, even if they're horrendous ones like killing the Dalish, sink to that.  Hundreds, if not thousands, of people died and/or were turned to darkspawn not just because of Loghain's bad judgment, but because he deliberately set them up.

Well, that is assuming he did deliberately set them up. Unfortunately, there is very little evidence to prove his motives beyond his personal testimony. There's a number of assumptions you can make, which people have gone through multiple times already, but no direct evidence correlating withdrawal at Ostagar with intent to get Cailin out of the picture.

The things that you can prove he had (possibly malicious) intent for are: Eamon's poisoning, bounty and hiring of assassins on the Wardens, knowledge of Howe's actions and collaborating with Tevinter slavers, which, as far as moral decisions go, are no worse than the ones I named earlier. 

I'm no lawyer, but I do know that malicious intent is a big part of, say, the difference between murder and homicide. That does not make the effects less bad, but could affect how you decide to deal justice to him. I was not attempting to compare Alistair's desire for vengeance (it is driven by emotion rather than reason) to Loghain's actions, but rather to state that Loghain is not insane and was able to operate in a rational state, as well as to add that Loghain's actions were certainly punishable, but that he was not necessarily operating on a lower moral or legal ground than your character. 

Modifié par eschilde, 06 janvier 2010 - 06:18 .

[Cybercat999]

Alistair infatuated walls of text ftl. Yikes.

[Ariella]

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

   The exact same reasoning Duncan used on me.  Stopping the blight supercedes justice.

You miss the point. There are other people who have just as much chance. WHAT specifically does Loghain bring to the party that HE has to be spared? Duncan conscripts you out of desperation, because he has no options. There are other options here. Loghain has no special skills or merit in this case. He's NOT going to be doing the leading, and the only tactic you need to kill an archdemon is to get to it and kill it if you can.

And as for the conscription there's a big difference between conscripting some nameless elf or mage who nobody knows about and conscripting a traitor to the crown who has personally or through assocates harmed many of the banns the Grey Wardens are going to need to support them.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

   The exact same reasoning Duncan used on me.  Stopping the blight supercedes justice.

You miss the point. There are other people who have just as much chance. WHAT specifically does Loghain bring to the party that HE has to be spared? Duncan conscripts you out of desperation, because he has no options. There are other options here. Loghain has no special skills or merit in this case. He's NOT going to be doing the leading, and the only tactic you need to kill an archdemon is to get to it and kill it if you can.

And as for the conscription there's a big difference between conscripting some nameless elf or mage who nobody knows about and conscripting a traitor to the crown who has personally or through assocates harmed many of the banns the Grey Wardens are going to need to support them.

There are more than 2 wardens at Ostagar.  Even before your Joining, you would know that they are down on the field with the rest of the army.  So why is he desperate with more than two, and in the Dwarven Noble Origin, you can see what, 4 more?  So he's desperate to bolster his numbers with at least twice as many, aside from him and Alistair, and yet, with just three, you should be more than comfortable?  Starting to grasp at some straws here?  Is he desperate because he believes that the more Wardens he has on the field the better?  Why does this logic not apply to the PC?

[IPerrin]

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

Ariella wrote...

IPerrin wrote...
   Riordan is the senior grey warden at the landsmeet.  He decides that Loghain should join the wardens.   Loghain is a ferelden hero.  Why do you continue insisting that these are not "satisfactory answers" to "why Loghain?? 

Riodan doesn't decide, doesn't order... he suggests, and it's up to the PC to decide if sparing Loghain has merit. Loghain may have been a hero, but now he's not to a lot of people in that room. What compelling argument can you present to say Bann Sigard of Dragon's Peak, who's son may never walk again because of Loghain, Or Eamon and Teagon who not only lost a nephew, but nearly saw Redcliffe destroyed and Eamon himself murdered because of Loghain's plotting? What compelling argument can a PC give that overrides the argument of all those people who've been harmed by Loghain? What does Loghain bring to the fight that someone else can't? Even after reading the books, and playing the game, I cannot find an argument that would satisfy these people.

   The exact same reasoning Duncan used on me.  Stopping the blight supercedes justice.

You miss the point. There are other people who have just as much chance. WHAT specifically does Loghain bring to the party that HE has to be spared? Duncan conscripts you out of desperation, because he has no options. There are other options here. Loghain has no special skills or merit in this case. He's NOT going to be doing the leading, and the only tactic you need to kill an archdemon is to get to it and kill it if you can.

And as for the conscription there's a big difference between conscripting some nameless elf or mage who nobody knows about and conscripting a traitor to the crown who has personally or through assocates harmed many of the banns the Grey Wardens are going to need to support them.

   I've already agreed with you on this point earlier in the thread.  My point is still that Loghain is the only choice here due to bad game design.  I would certainly have conscripted Sten, Zevran, Leliana, Jowan, Ser Cauthrien, and Gorim, but that does not change the fact that the only conscription option I get in the entire game is Loghain, and because of this I am as desperate as Duncan was.

[Ariella]

eschilde wrote...

Well, that is assuming he did deliberately set them up. Unfortunately, there is very little evidence to prove his motives beyond his personal testimony. There's a number of assumptions you can make, which people have gone through multiple times already, but no direct evidence correlating withdrawal at Ostagar with intent to get Cailin out of the picture.

The whole "Sound the retreat" cutscene? Or how about the fact that A) they were winning until Loghain quit the field (which we are told direct) Loghain's responsibility if he had to pull out would be to save the king first and foremost.

He set Cailan up. He did as he was prophecied to do.

[Ariella]

IPerrin wrote...

   I've already agreed with you on this point earlier in the thread.  My point is still that Loghain is the only choice here due to bad game design.  I would certainly have conscripted Sten, Zevran, Leliana, Jowan, Ser Cauthrien, and Gorim, but that does not change the fact that the only conscription option I get in the entire game is Loghain, and because of this I am as desperate as Duncan was.

Perrin, my problem comes when certain individuals (not yourself) act as if Loghain has some supper power that makes considering executing him a horrible thought that would doom Fereldan forever, and are willing to excuse all his faults to recruit him. 

The only reason I would ever recruit him would be to put him through the joining and then let him LIVE with it until he's got to enter the Deep Roads. Let him live with the nightmares and the knowledge that the taint in your blood is slowly killing you or worse.