555 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

Yep, and in real life, when somebody is that much of a whiner, I can kick them to the curb. Can't do that with Alistair, he still has to breathe my air in camp.

I wish I could kick you in the curb. Your'e the worst whiner ever.

At least Al has a legitimate reason for whining and runs out of whines eventually.
Your comes down to "I hate this guy", and you keep going like an energizer bunny.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Yep, and in real life, when somebody is that much of a whiner, I can kick them to the curb. Can't do that with Alistair, he still has to breathe my air in camp.

I wish I could kick you in the curb. Your'e the worst whiner ever.

At least Al has a legitimate reason for whining and runs out of whines eventually.
Your comes down to "I hate this guy", and you keep going like an energizer bunny.

Well, at least I don't have to flip flop positions about things in game to maintain my position.

[BroBear Berbil]

But in previous playthroughs where I played a DPS role and him as a tank, it was just awful. Not only could he not hold aggro (even when setting his tactics to generate as much threat as possible, and putting him in massive armor) but he couldn't take too many hits. He would just be a constant drain on poor Wynne's mana.

Haha. You realize that this part is on you as well right? It's not like Alistair is some other person behind the controls or that his attributes are devalued compared to other characters. Threat is as simple as getting close to your enemy and hitting a button. If you're too incompetent to do that don't come here and complain that it's somehow the character's fault. Stats, gear, and buffs are the determining factors for mitigation. Obviously something was lacking on your part in this matter as well. Also, running with 2 tanks and complaining that one of them isn't living up to some dps standard because you didn't re-spec him is absurd.

As for your assessment of his character it's all opinion so you won't get any argument from me on that. I just hate to see people complain about some kind of perceived mechanical weakness in a character as some kind of factual argument against it when those aspects are in direct control of the player.

Modifié par OnionXI, 02 janvier 2010 - 02:13 .

[Suron]

I can't help but LOL at those that keep saying Alistair sucks. He's been my tank for 3 plays now (on my 5th or 6th now I forget...my first play I was a tank and I took him down the 2h route..he was a beast. 2nd play was a mage, he was my tank..he was a beast...3rd play Dwarven noble 2h..alistair tanked not the entire game but in enough spots to..you guess it...be a beast.

I've also taken him down the DW line (WITHOUT A MOD) and he was good.

or in short..Alistair is only as good as the player playing him. If you think otherwise you're in denial. If you = fail then Alistair = fail.

now if you just don't like him as a character then whatever...but he only sucks if you suck (gameplay wise)

Modifié par Suron, 02 janvier 2010 - 02:29 .

[kaimanaMM]

I don't even understand how people say Alistair is the worst tank in the game. Right now I'm on my 3rd playthrough on nightmare and Alistair out-tanks Shale hands down. It's all on you, tank, DPS and healer. To use one of my favorite overused WoW lines : L2Play.



And yes, let's whine more about how whiney Alistair is, about how he doesn't want to be king and doesn't want to have Loghain be a Grey Warden. And woe is me because omg all he ever does is whine about how no one ever let him make his own decisions in his life and yadda yadda something dumb about his royal blood and if he'd just shut up ffs and be king already because I'm tired of having to listen to him whine about stupid things like how he wants to be seen for himself and not his royal blood because I'm too lazy to actually listen or care! All that and he can't tank either, OMGWTFBBQ!



*insert Will Riker /facepalm image here*

[Cybercat999]

OnionXI wrote...

But in previous playthroughs where I played a DPS role and him as a tank, it was just awful. Not only could he not hold aggro (even when setting his tactics to generate as much threat as possible, and putting him in massive armor) but he couldn't take too many hits. He would just be a constant drain on poor Wynne's mana.

Haha. You realize that this part is on you as well right? It's not like Alistair is some other person behind the controls or that his attributes are devalued compared to other characters. Threat is as simple as getting close to your enemy and hitting a button. If you're too incompetent to do that don't come here and complain that it's somehow the character's fault. Stats, gear, and buffs are the determining factors for mitigation. Obviously something was lacking on your part in this matter as well. Also, running with 2 tanks and complaining that one of them isn't living up to some dps standard because you didn't re-spec him is absurd.

This.
Alistair or any other character is just as good as player that plays him - and that is YOU. As far as I know this game doesnt have a MMO edition so there is none else playing your toons.

If you hate the AI so much, simply dont use it.
As I already said like 20 times, I dislike the character, but that is why I have option not to talk to him or press *esc* and simply skip whatever he was about to say. It has nothing to do with MY capability to play him as a tank.

[Sabriana]

Well, as far as Alistair is concerned, I'll refrain from commenting more on that other than saying he usually tends the campfire with Morrigan, and that's that.



I usually play with a mage (which might be my PC, or she might be a rogue), and I take another rogue, dog, and Shale. I never found myself wanting for a tank. I use tactics so that my archer and/or my mage are protected by the rest, set them all to swallow potions when <75, and either my PC or Wynne are specialized in healing.

Both rogues are respecc'd, and they are awesome. Next time around I'll plan on seeing if I can do the same for Sten. Turning him into a decent warrior needs to much time and patience without a mod. At least I find it nerve-wracking in a sense.

Later on I take Oghren, but I must be doing something wrong with the poor guy, he dies pretty quickly, and my mage/Wynne practically has to baby-sit him. I take him, because I really like him

As for Bhelen vs. Harrowmont, in my first play-through, my mage had absolutely no clue about dwarven society. How could she, she was a virtual prisoner all her life. So all she had to go on was questioning, listening, and drawing her own conclusions. It ended up by her deciding that of two bad choices, Bhelen was not quite as bad as Harrowmont.

Same with Branka vs. Caridin. Branka was a raving lunatic, the anvil far to prone to be used in a very, very bad way, and Shale (one of my favorites) sided with Caridin. Since Shale knew more about golemnism than my mage and Branka combined, she sided with Shale and Caridin. It helped that Oghren also seemed to think using the anvil was a bad idea. The only one who was against its destruction was Zevran, but to my surprise he actually listened and understood my mage's reasoning and backed down without any kind of disposition hit whatsoever.

[Creature 1]

NinjaWJ wrote...

Hmm i think part of Alistairs personality comes form him maybe getting abused as a child? I dont know but apparently he had a rough childhood so i think that caused his emotional state

He was never abused, not like Zevran, who is definitely not a whiner.  I'd characterize Alistair's childhood as benign neglect.  Not the best childhood, but not an insurmountable obstacle if he'd man up. 

Zevran was physically, psychologically, and probably sexually abused and he just tells you he escaped easy compared to some, he doesn't say, "I never had a Mum and Dad so I can't sew my own tunic.  :crying:"  

[ChaoticBroth]

Eh, I just toss my tactics on Alistair and Wynne, and the two of them can hold their own quite well while I snipe/attack/rain hell upon the enemies. It works really well, actually.



With the whole Bhelen v.s. Harrowmont, thing... Harrowmont is far too soft for a king. Bhelen understands that the dwarves are pretty resilient to change, and what happens to societies that are resilient in an unstable era? (They have them darkspawn attacks, I guess.) They decline. So being the idealist I am, I chose Bhelen. Sure, he becomes a dictator, but at least it's a golden age for Orzammar. Besides, the only reason it's a dictatorship is 'cause of the assassination attempts on his life. Other than that, it's all good (And I'd also rather have Bhelen over a bunch of politicians that do nothing other than argue. At least he does stuff.), and Bhelen actually gives the casteless greater rights, something that I think Orzammar really needed.

[Pisai]

Cybercat999 wrote...
I fail to see how can you make good tank out of one character and fail on another one.
You can think Shale is better, I can think Alistair is better, its not matter of success or failure but different opinions and different playstyles.

This is my 11th playthrough so whats your point?

Wow, 11th playthrough, very impressive, did you memorize most of the lines in the game already?

And allistair is a fine tank, although he sucks at first (no taunt).

Modifié par Pisai, 02 janvier 2010 - 03:20 .

[Bratinov]

Harrowmont is a failure,and I only chose him once on my dwarf noble run, hell even then he ruined my efforts to help the dwarfs by getting ferelden to help against the darkspawn... stupid noble boot licker.



Ohh how I hate Alistair with a passion. Crying over his murdering, blackmailing mancrush every chance he gets. This selfricheous, selfish manchild dares to talk to my character about right and wrong and wants to be king only to get his way... not to mention his "hilarious" antics. Deserting the wardens in a time of crisis ... oh how happy I was about his execution....



I didnt hate him on my first run but the more i play the game the more insufferable he becomes.

I keep him in the party because he's the only capable tank. Shale is just a brick wall that crumbles easily.

[Sidney]

Allistar is a fine tank and he has the huge upside of being someone that you can kill in the game - actually in at least 2 different ways that I've done. You get the best of both worlds, use his skills to aid your own ends and then murder his whining simpering little self.



In the end, he HAD to be that sort of character. Morrigan points out the issue when you first enter Lothering when she asks about how he is the senior Grey Warden but yet allows the junior warden to lead. He can't be a hard charger or else the whole structure of the game (your PC as leader) gets reall wonky to accept.

[Sialater]

Alistair sucks until you've gotten his strength up high enough to handle something besides chainmail and don't give Taunt to tank when his shield skills are still weak sauce. Buff up his shield skills before you start giving him the higher warrior skills or he's toast. If you didn't do this with your player character, I'll bet Wynne had to pull your bacon out of the fire quite often.



As far as the whining goes.... y'all really don't know a lot of whiners IRL, then do you. As far as fictional characters go, Alistair whines less than Luke Skywalker and WAY less than Anakin Skywalker.

[Creature 1]

Sialater wrote...
As far as the whining goes.... y'all really don't know a lot of whiners IRL, then do you. As far as fictional characters go, Alistair whines less than Luke Skywalker and WAY less than Anakin Skywalker.

I didn't care for their whining either! 

[robertthebard]

I have to say this, for clarity's sake. As a person, I despise Alistair. He is not somebody that would run in my group of friends. The dishonesty part we could get over, none of us are exactly paragons ourselves, but the constant whining isn't something that would go over very well. We don't get together like we used to, but when we do, we don't spend our time worrying that fully half the people we grew up with are in graveyards. He's not somebody that could run with us.



As a tank, he does a fine job, if built correctly. As a character, he is well written. If he wasn't he couldn't illicit the responses he does. His fans love him, and won't do anything to hurt his one manly feeling, while others can't wait for the Landsmeet, where he's either dead, or off getting drunk. Kudos to the writer/writers for doing such a fine job. This is applicable to all the NPC's too.

[robertthebard]

Sialater wrote...

Alistair sucks until you've gotten his strength up high enough to handle something besides chainmail and don't give Taunt to tank when his shield skills are still weak sauce. Buff up his shield skills before you start giving him the higher warrior skills or he's toast. If you didn't do this with your player character, I'll bet Wynne had to pull your bacon out of the fire quite often.

As far as the whining goes.... y'all really don't know a lot of whiners IRL, then do you. As far as fictional characters go, Alistair whines less than Luke Skywalker and WAY less than Anakin Skywalker.

No, I really don't know a lot of whiners in real life.  They don't last long hanging with the crowd I hang with.  Something about people pointing at them and laughing all the time makes them take their toys and go home.  Too bad Alistair won't take the hint.

[Sabriana]

Well now, to be fair, Luke toughens up considerably. As far as Anakin goes, I forgot much of the movie. I've watched episodes 1 - 3 only once each while I lost count how often I watched episodes 4 -6.



As far as Alistair goes, my PC should've seen it coming as early as Flemeth's hut.



Ostagar, human noble PC:

PC: I need to find Fergus

Duncan: No, shaddap (well, sort of)

PC: But I need to avenge my family

Duncan: The blight is most important. It supersedes everything, even vengeance.



Flemeth's hut:

PC: We have to stop this Blight somehow

Alistair: No, we have to get Loghain for what he did.



And there you have it. Hindsight. What a beautiful thing. Really.

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Alistair sucks until you've gotten his strength up high enough to handle something besides chainmail and don't give Taunt to tank when his shield skills are still weak sauce. Buff up his shield skills before you start giving him the higher warrior skills or he's toast. If you didn't do this with your player character, I'll bet Wynne had to pull your bacon out of the fire quite often.

As far as the whining goes.... y'all really don't know a lot of whiners IRL, then do you. As far as fictional characters go, Alistair whines less than Luke Skywalker and WAY less than Anakin Skywalker.

No, I really don't know a lot of whiners in real life.  They don't last long hanging with the crowd I hang with.  Something about people pointing at them and laughing all the time makes them take their toys and go home.  Too bad Alistair won't take the hint.

Well, the worst whiner I know happens to be 12.  He is my real life meter stick.  But, since I always romance Alistair (and he never leaves my party), I never get the whiney dialogue my husband and you seemed to have gotten.  

[Sialater]

Sabriana wrote...

Well now, to be fair, Luke toughens up considerably. As far as Anakin goes, I forgot much of the movie. I've watched episodes 1 - 3 only once each while I lost count how often I watched episodes 4 -6.

As far as Alistair goes, my PC should've seen it coming as early as Flemeth's hut.

Ostagar, human noble PC:
PC: I need to find Fergus
Duncan: No, shaddap (well, sort of)
PC: But I need to avenge my family
Duncan: The blight is most important. It supersedes everything, even vengeance.

Flemeth's hut:
PC: We have to stop this Blight somehow
Alistair: No, we have to get Loghain for what he did.

And there you have it. Hindsight. What a beautiful thing. Really.

Well, we were warned. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Well, at least I don't have to flip flop positions about things in game to maintain my position.

I'm afraid you lost me there, cause I got no idea what's your'e talking about.

robertthebard wrote...

I have to say this, for clarity's
sake. As a person, I despise Alistair. He is not somebody that would
run in my group of friends

You have friends?

Also, there is no constant whining on his part. In the year or two he "whines" Duncan like...7-8  times. Yeah, MASSIVE ammount of whining.
I guess you have a rather strange definition of whining and what constitues too much.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 janvier 2010 - 05:35 .

[melkathi]

I'll just quickly agree with the Alistair hating.
Of course he has issues. Everyone who joins a single player rpg party as a npc must have issues - it's part of the job description.
And obviously it's tough to suddenly loose all your friends in one swoop.
But as people said, human nobles didn't exactly have it easy either. Or play as a female city elf: at your wedding a noble tries to rape your friends, so you offer to "entertain" him yourself instead if he leaves the others alone. He refuses, grabs you and your friends, his guards execute one of them. Your husband-to-be is killed trying to rescue you, your best friend gets gangraped and you are forced to flee the city in hope that your absence will mean the other elves will suffer less retribution.
Or has his life up to the events at Ostagar been so much worse than that of your character as a casteless?

You can best compare Alistair to Zevran. Both are orphans that were given to an organization for training. One was put in the chantry and tought to kill mages, the other was taken by the crows and tought to kill anything he was told.

In a way his sister was right. Of the two she has had the tough life, but he does the whining.

You know, when Alistair tells you how he is glad that the other warden who survived was you, I have thought "Well I'd prefer it if the other warden that survived was Daveth and not you." At least Daveth, in his discussion with Jory, shows an understanding of the importance of his duty.

Modifié par melkathi, 02 janvier 2010 - 05:39 .

[Creature 1]

melkathi wrote...
You can best compare Alistair to Zevran. Both are orphans that were given to an organization for training. One was put in the chantry and tought to kill mages, the other was taken by the crows and tought to kill anything he was told.

I'd disagree, Zevran had it way worse.  Alistair never had to kill anyone, the closest he got was being present at a failed Harrowing.  Zevran probably killed his first victim at the age of 7.  Purchasing children for Crow training probably leads to a high failure rate because it's hard to gauge potential at that age, and I imagine the failures are made useful in training the other Crow children--blood them while not presenting much real danger.  Alistair, on the other hand, had pillow fights with the other boys in the Chantry. 

Alistair I think is just a fundamentally weak person (in some ways, in other ways he's got lots of guts, like when I tell him, "Go distract that dragon, ok?") or else he would have had little difficulty overcoming his upbringing.  

[a1021]

ChaoticBroth wrote...

With the whole Bhelen v.s. Harrowmont, thing... Harrowmont is far too soft for a king. Bhelen understands that the dwarves are pretty resilient to change, and what happens to societies that are resilient in an unstable era? (They have them darkspawn attacks, I guess.) They decline. So being the idealist I am, I chose Bhelen. Sure, he becomes a dictator, but at least it's a golden age for Orzammar. Besides, the only reason it's a dictatorship is 'cause of the assassination attempts on his life. Other than that, it's all good (And I'd also rather have Bhelen over a bunch of politicians that do nothing other than argue. At least he does stuff.), and Bhelen actually gives the casteless greater rights, something that I think Orzammar really needed.

reading this, bhelen sounds a little bit like the josef stalin of the dwarves...

as for branka, she didn't turn anyone into darkspawn. they were already infected and she just decided not to kill them, but to wait until they turned to broodmothers to use the genlocks against the traps. also she won me over with the way she says "i am your paragon." too bad she's not a romance option for female dwarves... we could have ruled together...

[Sialater]

a1021 wrote...

ChaoticBroth wrote...

With the whole Bhelen v.s. Harrowmont, thing... Harrowmont is far too soft for a king. Bhelen understands that the dwarves are pretty resilient to change, and what happens to societies that are resilient in an unstable era? (They have them darkspawn attacks, I guess.) They decline. So being the idealist I am, I chose Bhelen. Sure, he becomes a dictator, but at least it's a golden age for Orzammar. Besides, the only reason it's a dictatorship is 'cause of the assassination attempts on his life. Other than that, it's all good (And I'd also rather have Bhelen over a bunch of politicians that do nothing other than argue. At least he does stuff.), and Bhelen actually gives the casteless greater rights, something that I think Orzammar really needed.

reading this, bhelen sounds a little bit like the josef stalin of the dwarves...

as for branka, she didn't turn anyone into darkspawn. they were already infected and she just decided not to kill them, but to wait until they turned to broodmothers to use the genlocks against the traps. also she won me over with the way she says "i am your paragon." too bad she's not a romance option for female dwarves... we could have ruled together...

She allowed it to happen.  Or don't you believe Hespith?

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...
She allowed it to happen.  Or don't you believe Hespith?

I think she even admits to it herself.