555 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Sorry would you like me to come to your house and say it to you seeing as you are obviously blind.

Also your question was what reason there was to make him a GW not why make him above anyone else, so seriously before you try retorting with such utter nonsense think about what you originally wrote.

why him above anyone else, anyone else in the landsmeet, hmm, who can I conscript, one of my party members, maybe. But depends on my party members doesn't it and how well I know them and whether they would do it.


Difference between me and you, I ain't stating everyone should do it, am just trying to state that the bunch of you that are stating anyone whom does spare him are bad really do need a wake up call.

You still didn't provide a real answer. There are knights from Redciffe and Denerim. Your'e in the capital with whole armies full of potential recruits. There realyl isn't a good reason to take him on.

Also, I'm not telling you what you SHOULD do, I'm telling you want is a stupid move. if you want to do it anyway, go ahead. But taking on Loghain is just as wise as poking your finger in the elcectric outlet.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with. I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair. In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him. He didn't have to, but he did. Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard? This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn. He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright. Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

I'm fairly sure Alistair says, "I know who I was told was my father," and adds that it was not Eamon. He never lies, he just doesn't straight up tell you. Whether that was wrong is debatable. It was irresponsible on his part not to come out and tell you, but I don't believe it put you in more danger than you were already in, and it's not a straight up lie.

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.

Hm, I don't remember that dialogue option, but I'm actually willing to chalk that up to an oversight by Bioware because it seems like a really stupid thing to lie about. He doesn't have to lie about who his father is for you to not know, after all. I do remember him saying his mother died when he was really young and that was why he was raised by Eamon. I don't have it handy to look for atm but I think I'm going to check for that later..

[Eruanna Guerrein]

eschilde wrote...

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with. I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair. In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him. He didn't have to, but he did. Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard? This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn. He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright. Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

I'm fairly sure Alistair says, "I know who I was told was my father," and adds that it was not Eamon. He never lies, he just doesn't straight up tell you. Whether that was wrong is debatable. It was irresponsible on his part not to come out and tell you, but I don't believe it put you in more danger than you were already in, and it's not a straight up lie.

Actually, I can't remember what choices to get this, but he will tell you his father died even before his mother. I took that, because it was on my second playthrough and I already knew he was Maric's son (my first playthrough I went to Redcliffe immediately, before I even knew there was a party camp), as a figurative thing for him. As far as he was concerned his father died the moment he rejected Alistair as his child. Obviously not everyone sees it that way.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Sorry would you like me to come to your house and say it to you seeing as you are obviously blind.

Also your question was what reason there was to make him a GW not why make him above anyone else, so seriously before you try retorting with such utter nonsense think about what you originally wrote.

why him above anyone else, anyone else in the landsmeet, hmm, who can I conscript, one of my party members, maybe. But depends on my party members doesn't it and how well I know them and whether they would do it.


Difference between me and you, I ain't stating everyone should do it, am just trying to state that the bunch of you that are stating anyone whom does spare him are bad really do need a wake up call.

You still didn't provide a real answer. There are knights from Redciffe and Denerim. Your'e in the capital with whole armies full of potential recruits. There realyl isn't a good reason to take him on.

Also, I'm not telling you what you SHOULD do, I'm telling you want is a stupid move. if you want to do it anyway, go ahead. But taking on Loghain is just as wise as poking your finger in the elcectric outlet.

For anyone that wants to know why I feel Lotion is largely irrelevant to the scheme of things, read this post.  Let me copy paste this here, so he can't edit it later for less clarity:

Lotion
Also, I'm not telling you what you SHOULD do, I'm telling you want is a stupid move. if you want to do it anyway, go ahead. But taking on Loghain is just as wise as poking your finger in the elcectric outlet.

"If you don't play my way, you're stupid".  Isn't that what this little quote implies?  This was also his fall back position on Morrigan's Ritual, "it's not wise".

[Ariella]

eschilde wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WORD OF GOD (David Gaider) - Loghain was planing his trechery before Ostagar. There's your proof right there, from the horses mouth. Is there really any point in discussing this further?

Link?

http://social.biowar...132987/1#139070

David Gaider | Mon Nov 9 15:15:25 2009

It's interesting. "He will betray you, each time worse than the last."
In my mind, the bigger crime for Loghain is that he kill *Rowan's* son
-- but Loghain is definitely capable of that kind of blindness when it
comes to doing what he thinks is best.



You're only going
to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in what
Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but
ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe
this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because
if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else
she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through
the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already
cast.



Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had
obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or
misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is
ultimately up to the player's perception.
------------------------------
Checkmate

[Wrathra]

Edit:  LOL Ariella beat me to it!

eschilde wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WORD OF GOD (David Gaider) - Loghain was planing his trechery before Ostagar. There's your proof right there, from the horses mouth. Is there really any point in discussing this further?

Link?

Here is a link from Penny Arcade. It's on page 98 of the thread, post by DozingDragon.  It was originally posted here, but the search function is being crappy and isn't finding anything at all. sigh  

http://forums.penny-....php?p=12512076

The actual quote is (the emphasis is mine):

David Gaider wrote:

It's interesting. "He will betray you, each time worse than the last."
In my mind, the bigger crime for Loghain is that he kill *Rowan's* son
-- but Loghain is definitely capable of that kind of blindness when it
comes to doing what he thinks is best.

You're only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's
involved in what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to
him, but ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't
believe this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact,
because if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything
else she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way
through the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is
already cast.

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already
begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too
easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to
the player's perception.

Modifié par Wrathra, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


In war victory - Orlesians defeated
In peace, vigilance - Kept an eye on them
In death, sacrifice - Loghain would rightfully die for his country

Speaking of the Warden creed... I've yet to get that in game dialogue. Does it ever come up?

If I remember rightly you say it at Wardens Keep to get the secret warden stash in the fireplace in the room where you close the link to the fade after getting all the codex entries in the whole soldiers peak area (including the outside one)

I find it odd that they don't say it at the joining

Edit:@Wrathra thanks for posting as it reminded me that Gaider actually said it is all up to the players perception. Some could easily have their characters perceive it was all Rendon Howe's doing poisoning Loghain's mind fuelling his paranoia about Orlais. So no it isn't checkmate Ariella, learn to read

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:16 .

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with. I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair. In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him. He didn't have to, but he did. Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard? This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn. He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright. Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

I'm fairly sure Alistair says, "I know who I was told was my father," and adds that it was not Eamon. He never lies, he just doesn't straight up tell you. Whether that was wrong is debatable. It was irresponsible on his part not to come out and tell you, but I don't believe it put you in more danger than you were already in, and it's not a straight up lie.

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.

That's not exactly true either. He was told his whole life that he had to deny who his father is. He had to have some kind of story about his father and death is as good an explanation as any other. It probably also, more often than not, stops further questions about it.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


In war victory - Orlesians defeated
In peace, vigilance - Kept an eye on them
In death, sacrifice - Loghain would rightfully die for his country

Speaking of the Warden creed... I've yet to get that in game dialogue. Does it ever come up?

If I remember rightly you say it at Wardens Keep to get the secret warden stash in the fireplace in the room where you close the link to the fade after getting all the codex entries in the whole soldiers peak area (including the outside one)

I find it odd that they don't say it at the joining

Edit:@Wrathra thanks for posting as it reminded me that Gaider actually said it is all up to the players perception. Some could easily have their characters perceive it was all Rendon Howe's doing poisoning Loghain's mind fuelling his paranoia about Orlais. So no it isn't checkmate Ariella, learn to read

That's right you do, but only if you get Warden's Keep. And how, since it never comes up any other time, is my PC to know it? I think this is a big oversight in the game. I've seen it quoted as reasoning for decisions made before but it's invalid if your PC doesn't know it.

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with. I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair. In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him. He didn't have to, but he did. Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard? This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn. He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright. Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

I'm fairly sure Alistair says, "I know who I was told was my father," and adds that it was not Eamon. He never lies, he just doesn't straight up tell you. Whether that was wrong is debatable. It was irresponsible on his part not to come out and tell you, but I don't believe it put you in more danger than you were already in, and it's not a straight up lie.

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.

That's not exactly true either. He was told his whole life that he had to deny who his father is. He had to have some kind of story about his father and death is as good an explanation as any other. It probably also, more often than not, stops further questions about it.

I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.

[eschilde]

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

Sigh, David Gaider crushes my perceptions of the game once again. A few things, though: unless he comes in here and confirms that Loghain planned that battle with the intention of getting Cailin killed, I will not believe it. (Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and in this case it would need the word of the Maker There is no doubt that Loghain intended to get rid of Eamon, which I wasn't disputing in any case. I just find it very difficult to believe that Loghain thought that the loss of those troops was worth getting rid of Cailin, for reasons I've already stated.



If he really did think that, then, uh, wow, Loghain really is.. not that good at tactical planning and maybe not really worth saving in the end >.> if that were the case, I would concede that Loghain was no longer capable of acting rationally and therefore could be labeled insane, also justifying killing him right away rather than letting him become a Warden.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...


Ok, so, you witness an event.  This is first hand knowledge.  You tell me about the event, it's now second hand knowledge, as I did not witness the events.

Did you even read? There's a witness (friend) who has a noble's credible backing (Oswyn himself.)

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with.  I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair.  In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him.  He didn't have to, but he did.  Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard?  This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn.  He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright.  Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

Where does he outright lie? I've asked him about him knowing who his father was. And he says he knows who he was TOLD who his father was. That he chooses not to share that with you at the moment is his business, and has nothing to do with lying.

Then, going to Redcliffe to chase down Dwyn for Sten's sword, I trigger the Redcliffe quest.  Well crap, I didn't have Alistair with me, so no come clean cutscene.  Anyway, I get stuck doing Redcliffe, and saving the Arl, only to find out, surprise, Alistair is the heir to the throne.  In camp, he talks about being sorry, he should have spoken up sooner, he was afraid people would look at him different, that they might try to make him be king, etc etc ad nauseum.  I go with the "I don't know who you are" line, because I'm playing my character.  He then throws a fit, and forces things around so that I have to apologize to him for him lying to me the whole time he's known me.  So, I'm still trying to cling to the infatuated City Elf and apologize, and he is a total ass about it, to the point that the writers included, "Or you could just be an ass about it".  Bang, -15 approval, relationship ended.  All because Alistair couldn't admit who he was.  Of course, I just roleplayed the rebound ho, and got Zev, and then rekindled the romance with Leliana that I had shut down for Alistair's sake.  So yeah, I think I know Alistair's character pretty damned well.  Probably better than you do.

Bull you know the character better. Just listen to your own rant. You're blaming him from not being in a position to TELL you at the time. You're complaining about a game mechanic. As for the I don't know who you are line.... Consider it from his perspective, you've just pinged his worst fear: That the only thing that is ever going to define him is his royal blood and nothing he does or says will ever be seperate from that. He wants to be more than just some royal bastard, and the PC he's come to trust and care for tells him that after all they've been through this one thing is enough to make her say she doesn't "know" him, as if his actions up to that point and all the conversations that they've shared mean nothing. So, of course he's hurt.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

Sigh, David Gaider crushes my perceptions of the game once again. A few things, though: unless he comes in here and confirms that Loghain planned that battle with the intention of getting Cailin killed, I will not believe it. (Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and in this case it would need the word of the Maker There is no doubt that Loghain intended to get rid of Eamon, which I wasn't disputing in any case. I just find it very difficult to believe that Loghain thought that the loss of those troops was worth getting rid of Cailin, for reasons I've already stated.

If he really did think that, then, uh, wow, Loghain really is.. not that good at tactical planning and maybe not really worth saving in the end >.> if that were the case, I would concede that Loghain was no longer capable of acting rationally and therefore could be labeled insane, also justifying killing him right away rather than letting him become a Warden.

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.

I don't see that as indisputable proof that it wasn't also just an automatic response. Of course, he could have back tracked and said, "actually, that's not true..." I think depending on how long you played through before getting to this point would make a difference to how you viewed it. I will admit because by the time I got this line (2nd playthrough) I knew it wasn't true, it bothered me a bit but just like you can't over the bad sides you've seen in Al during your different playthroughs, I have a tough time judging against him because of the good sides I've seen through mine.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Ok, so, you witness an event.  This is first hand knowledge.  You tell me about the event, it's now second hand knowledge, as I did not witness the events.

Did you even read? There's a witness (friend) who has a noble's credible backing (Oswyn himself.)

Now, to dispel the "You don't know Alistair's character" thing you seem to be obssessed with.  I'm running along in my second play through, role playing my infatuated little City Elf that's romancing Alistair.  In camp discussion, we talk about his childhood, how Eamon raised him, this is, of course after we through the raised by flying dogs thing, and he says that Eamon raised him.  He didn't have to, but he did.  Now, as City Elf, I ask, isn't it odd for an Arl to raise a bastard?  This is, of course, setting off my "What's up with that" alarm, since nobles don't take kids off the street to raise, even if they put them in the barn.  He claims that Eamon truly isn't his father, and yet, when you ask who is, he lies outright.  Compound this with his lie of omission about who his father is.

Where does he outright lie? I've asked him about him knowing who his father was. And he says he knows who he was TOLD who his father was. That he chooses not to share that with you at the moment is his business, and has nothing to do with lying.

Then, going to Redcliffe to chase down Dwyn for Sten's sword, I trigger the Redcliffe quest.  Well crap, I didn't have Alistair with me, so no come clean cutscene.  Anyway, I get stuck doing Redcliffe, and saving the Arl, only to find out, surprise, Alistair is the heir to the throne.  In camp, he talks about being sorry, he should have spoken up sooner, he was afraid people would look at him different, that they might try to make him be king, etc etc ad nauseum.  I go with the "I don't know who you are" line, because I'm playing my character.  He then throws a fit, and forces things around so that I have to apologize to him for him lying to me the whole time he's known me.  So, I'm still trying to cling to the infatuated City Elf and apologize, and he is a total ass about it, to the point that the writers included, "Or you could just be an ass about it".  Bang, -15 approval, relationship ended.  All because Alistair couldn't admit who he was.  Of course, I just roleplayed the rebound ho, and got Zev, and then rekindled the romance with Leliana that I had shut down for Alistair's sake.  So yeah, I think I know Alistair's character pretty damned well.  Probably better than you do.

Bull you know the character better. Just listen to your own rant. You're blaming him from not being in a position to TELL you at the time. You're complaining about a game mechanic. As for the I don't know who you are line.... Consider it from his perspective, you've just pinged his worst fear: That the only thing that is ever going to define him is his royal blood and nothing he does or says will ever be seperate from that. He wants to be more than just some royal bastard, and the PC he's come to trust and care for tells him that after all they've been through this one thing is enough to make her say she doesn't "know" him, as if his actions up to that point and all the conversations that they've shared mean nothing. So, of course he's hurt.

Evidently you did not read, either here, or in game.  His friend is missing, and presumed dead.  Dead men tell no tales.

The fact is, the ideal time to tell your party leader, appointed by you, I might add, that you have something that could be vital to stopping Loghain is probably in your very first strategy meeting.  If not, then the second one is surely a good time, and if not, when discussing your past with the "love of your life" is surely a good time?  No?  Why not?  Oh, because, in his own words, "People look at me differently".  Well, his top secret approach sure worked well, didn't it.  When you ask him directly, and he doesn't tell you, it's a lie.  In fact, the evasive "I was told who my father is.." is a lie.  Paint that any way you want, but he lied to me.  You can deal with that, and you know what, that's your game.  In my game, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.  Poor little City Elf finds out she was no more important to Alistair than a hooker at the Pearl.  She couldn't have been, since he persisted in his lies.

[IPerrin]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Sorry would you like me to come to your house and say it to you seeing as you are obviously blind.

Also your question was what reason there was to make him a GW not why make him above anyone else, so seriously before you try retorting with such utter nonsense think about what you originally wrote.

why him above anyone else, anyone else in the landsmeet, hmm, who can I conscript, one of my party members, maybe. But depends on my party members doesn't it and how well I know them and whether they would do it.


Difference between me and you, I ain't stating everyone should do it, am just trying to state that the bunch of you that are stating anyone whom does spare him are bad really do need a wake up call.

You still didn't provide a real answer. There are knights from Redciffe and Denerim. Your'e in the capital with whole armies full of potential recruits. There realyl isn't a good reason to take him on.

Also, I'm not telling you what you SHOULD do, I'm telling you want is a stupid move. if you want to do it anyway, go ahead. But taking on Loghain is just as wise as poking your finger in the elcectric outlet.

   "I'm telling you want is a stupid move"
  "as wise as poking your finger in the elcectric outlet"

  And right now I think if anyone's putting their finger in an electric outlet its you, with statements like those, on a thread like this.

[Ariella]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.[/quote]
..........


I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.[/quote]

This pretty much proves you DON'T understand Alistair at all.  You completely skip the issues of Alistair being told all his life that he's not in line for the throne, and that indeed he's a potential threat to Calian's reign due to his very existence.

Then there's the fact that everyone who already knew the truth either treated him like complete crap or coddled him because he was the bastard prince.

He's also embarassed about his birth, or did you never hear the banter between him and Leliana about him becoming king. "A star struck serving girl and an indescrete man who happened to be king" is how refers to his parents.

In summery, he has absolutely no reason to WANT to own up to his birth as it has brought him nothing but grief. He's never had a real home or family because of it. Everyone who knows sees his blood first, and not who he is inside, and treats him accordingly based on that one simple fact rather than anything he's accomplished on his own. It's no wonder he's got issues. That you can't recognize that there's a legitimate reason for these issues and that he has legitimate reasons for his actions is your problem.

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.

I don't see that as indisputable proof that it wasn't also just an automatic response. Of course, he could have back tracked and said, "actually, that's not true..." I think depending on how long you played through before getting to this point would make a difference to how you viewed it. I will admit because by the time I got this line (2nd playthrough) I knew it wasn't true, it bothered me a bit but just like you can't over the bad sides you've seen in Al during your different playthroughs, I have a tough time judging against him because of the good sides I've seen through mine.

I totally agree.  It's not that I want everyone to see him my way, I'm impressed that there are so many ways to see him.  It's just that I don't appreciate being told I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to his character, even though I've seen him in every light except with a female noble being queen.  He's been king alone, and King with Anora, and Anora has been queen alone.  I just can't seem to get past that game to want to be his queen...

[robertthebard]

[quote]Ariella wrote...

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.[/quote]
..........


I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.[/quote]

This pretty much proves you DON'T understand Alistair at all.  You completely skip the issues of Alistair being told all his life that he's not in line for the throne, and that indeed he's a potential threat to Calian's reign due to his very existence.

Then there's the fact that everyone who already knew the truth either treated him like complete crap or coddled him because he was the bastard prince.

He's also embarassed about his birth, or did you never hear the banter between him and Leliana about him becoming king. "A star struck serving girl and an indescrete man who happened to be king" is how refers to his parents.

In summery, he has absolutely no reason to WANT to own up to his birth as it has brought him nothing but grief. He's never had a real home or family because of it. Everyone who knows sees his blood first, and not who he is inside, and treats him accordingly based on that one simple fact rather than anything he's accomplished on his own. It's no wonder he's got issues. That you can't recognize that there's a legitimate reason for these issues and that he has legitimate reasons for his actions is your problem.

[/quote]
Look, I'm sorry if taking words from Alistair's mouth hurts your feelings, but really, there's nothing I can do about that, you'll have to deal with it however you deem fit.  It's fairly obvious to me that you want me to say that Alistair is a prince amongst men, and I'm truly sorry, you're not going to hear that.  As I said, it's obvious to me that I know more about him than you do, as I don't role play an Alistair fangirl every time I play.  There's a reason why the writers would include "Or you can just be an ass about it" in a response to something he says, and there's also a reason "It's about time", or "finally", which ever it is that you get when Anora has him killed at the Landsmeet.  So, I don't wear blinders and pretend that he's all peachy.  So what?  Does that affect your game at all?

[eschilde]

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast. At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him. However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet. He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business. Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Well, by halfway through the game it should have become apparent to Loghain that the Wardens' move against him was having successful results and there's not really a feasible way for him to capitulate. I think that part of the story is well-told by Bioware, and I don't dispute it.



My thoughts are something like, I think that the shadowy possibility of Loghain's having a clean conscience are a huge part of whether or not to allow him to live. I'm not going to lie, I metagame, I've recruited Loghain simply because he was recruitable, but my character had no reasonable justification for doing so. Seriously, if he planned Ostagar, knowing that failing there would allow the horde to move, knowing that he would lose a certain amount of troops, because he thought it would give him an advantage to fight the darkspawn in the south and have troops leftover to enforce the western borders against a subsequent Orlesian invasion... uh.. I would say that having such a person in the Wardens is more of a liability than an asset, even if you were told before the Landsmeet that killing the archdemon required the sacrifice of a GW life.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...
That's right you do, but only if you get Warden's Keep. And how, since it never comes up any other time, is my PC to know it? I think this is a big oversight in the game. I've seen it quoted as reasoning for decisions made before but it's invalid if your PC doesn't know it.

It's in the 'Grey Warden handbook' didn't you know? All wardens are given one when they join... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

No, you are right unless you don't go to Wardens Keep you probably wouldn't know (I imagine it is written on the wall there somewhere). The thing is though does it not give validation as to why Riordan came up with the idea of suggesting Loghain joins? Loghain's past is well known by a lot of people, the Warden's party members other than possibly Wynne is not.

As I said before, it seems odd that the wardens aren't told it when they go through the ritual. It would make absolute sense to say it then. Once I found out about it, on playthroughs after it always irks me when Duncan mentions only saying a few words beforehand and all it is to do with is previous comrades rather than or just not including the actual motto.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

Sigh, David Gaider crushes my perceptions of the game once again. A few things, though: unless he comes in here and confirms that Loghain planned that battle with the intention of getting Cailin killed, I will not believe it. (Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and in this case it would need the word of the Maker There is no doubt that Loghain intended to get rid of Eamon, which I wasn't disputing in any case. I just find it very difficult to believe that Loghain thought that the loss of those troops was worth getting rid of Cailin, for reasons I've already stated.

If he really did think that, then, uh, wow, Loghain really is.. not that good at tactical planning and maybe not really worth saving in the end >.> if that were the case, I would concede that Loghain was no longer capable of acting rationally and therefore could be labeled insane, also justifying killing him right away rather than letting him become a Warden.

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Considering that little scene after Zeveran leaves it's pretty darn obvious that Loghain's having regrets... The look on his face says it all, but he holds on for sheer stubborness rather than admitting he was wrong....

Plus you miss the part:


"You're
only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in
what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but
ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe
this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because
if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else
she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through
the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already
cast."

And the only way it seems that you can break through his stubborness and insanity is nearly killing him at least once. Even then, the only reason he's willing to accept you is that he finally sees the strength in your character, a strength he hasn't seen since Maric. He doesn't admit he was wrong (say like Alistair does) in anything he did. He just accepts you have a strength that he believe Cailan lacked.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast. At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him. However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet. He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business. Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Well, by halfway through the game it should have become apparent to Loghain that the Wardens' move against him was having successful results and there's not really a feasible way for him to capitulate. I think that part of the story is well-told by Bioware, and I don't dispute it.

My thoughts are something like, I think that the shadowy possibility of Loghain's having a clean conscience are a huge part of whether or not to allow him to live. I'm not going to lie, I metagame, I've recruited Loghain simply because he was recruitable, but my character had no reasonable justification for doing so. Seriously, if he planned Ostagar, knowing that failing there would allow the horde to move, knowing that he would lose a certain amount of troops, because he thought it would give him an advantage to fight the darkspawn in the south and have troops leftover to enforce the western borders against a subsequent Orlesian invasion... uh.. I would say that having such a person in the Wardens is more of a liability than an asset, even if you were told before the Landsmeet that killing the archdemon required the sacrifice of a GW life.

I very definitely would not want him in charge of my troops.  Good thing he becomes just another follower.  I still don't see recruitment into the GW's as a reward, I've only had one idealistic moron of a PC that saw it as an honor.  The rest have fallen somewhere between "oh crap, guess I will" to "thanks for saving me from the Arl's men, can I go now?"...

[eschilde]

About the motto, it's possible that it is common knowledge in the realm, like griffons.