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[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast. At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him. However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet. He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business. Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Well, by halfway through the game it should have become apparent to Loghain that the Wardens' move against him was having successful results and there's not really a feasible way for him to capitulate. I think that part of the story is well-told by Bioware, and I don't dispute it.

My thoughts are something like, I think that the shadowy possibility of Loghain's having a clean conscience are a huge part of whether or not to allow him to live. I'm not going to lie, I metagame, I've recruited Loghain simply because he was recruitable, but my character had no reasonable justification for doing so. Seriously, if he planned Ostagar, knowing that failing there would allow the horde to move, knowing that he would lose a certain amount of troops, because he thought it would give him an advantage to fight the darkspawn in the south and have troops leftover to enforce the western borders against a subsequent Orlesian invasion... uh.. I would say that having such a person in the Wardens is more of a liability than an asset, even if you were told before the Landsmeet that killing the archdemon required the sacrifice of a GW life.

I very definitely would not want him in charge of my troops.  Good thing he becomes just another follower.  I still don't see recruitment into the GW's as a reward, I've only had one idealistic moron of a PC that saw it as an honor.  The rest have fallen somewhere between "oh crap, guess I will" to "thanks for saving me from the Arl's men, can I go now?"...

I agree 100%, my point was more if Loghain's judgment was that skewed I'd be wondering if he wouldn't work against the Grey Wardens anyway, even after doing the Joining, not that I'd want him commanding troops. Although, heh, I wonder whether you can say anything to him if you leave him at the Denerim gates and have him defend..

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
"If you don't play my way, you're stupid".  Isn't that what this little quote implies?  This was also his fall back position on Morrigan's Ritual, "it's not wise".

Because it isn't. The truth isn't pretty sometimes.
Things are wise or not. Truths or lies. Not all choices are equal.

Both of the choice potions mentioned are not wise (or at least are less wise than the alternatives). You can belive otherwise if you wish, it won't change anything.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

Sigh, David Gaider crushes my perceptions of the game once again. A few things, though: unless he comes in here and confirms that Loghain planned that battle with the intention of getting Cailin killed, I will not believe it. (Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and in this case it would need the word of the Maker There is no doubt that Loghain intended to get rid of Eamon, which I wasn't disputing in any case. I just find it very difficult to believe that Loghain thought that the loss of those troops was worth getting rid of Cailin, for reasons I've already stated.

If he really did think that, then, uh, wow, Loghain really is.. not that good at tactical planning and maybe not really worth saving in the end >.> if that were the case, I would concede that Loghain was no longer capable of acting rationally and therefore could be labeled insane, also justifying killing him right away rather than letting him become a Warden.

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Considering that little scene after Zeveran leaves it's pretty darn obvious that Loghain's having regrets... The look on his face says it all, but he holds on for sheer stubborness rather than admitting he was wrong....

Plus you miss the part:


"You're
only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in
what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but
ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe
this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because
if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else
she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through
the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already
cast."

And the only way it seems that you can break through his stubborness and insanity is nearly killing him at least once. Even then, the only reason he's willing to accept you is that he finally sees the strength in your character, a strength he hasn't seen since Maric. He doesn't admit he was wrong (say like Alistair does) in anything he did. He just accepts you have a strength that he believe Cailan lacked.

I actually agree with this.  He's dug himself a hole, and all he can do is ride it out.  Changing tactics now would only serve to undermine himself.  He is not the hero he once was, but, he can be a moral booster to troops that either served with him against Orlais, or who's fathers did, and they've heard the stories.  I still don't see conscription as forgiveness, and there might have been things I'd do differently end game, after the Archdemon, but for the sake of the Blight, I'll do what I have to do.  Just a minor addendum to what I bolded above, he does admit being wrong about you, which is part of the strength he hasn't seen since Maric thing.  So I'd say he doesn't admit being wrong about everything he did, as opposed to anything he did, but that's a minor point.

[Ariella]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

The danger isn't an issue, what is an issue is that he says his father dies when he was very young, which is not the case, since Maric has only been dead for about 5 years.  He lies, and he does so because he doesn't want you to look at him differently, and doesn't want to be king.  The only reason he tells you going into Redcliffe is because he knows that Eamon will tell you.[/quote]
..........


I'd buy this, but it comes up in game, via banter with Morrigan.  Why he persisted with the lie with the King dead, he just hoped it would go away, to which Morrigan replies "The truth does not simply go away".  "I never said it was a good plan".  He knew it was time to come clean, or he would make Eamon expose him every time.[/quote]
[/quote]

This pretty much proves you DON'T understand Alistair at all.  You completely skip the issues of Alistair being told all his life that he's not in line for the throne, and that indeed he's a potential threat to Calian's reign due to his very existence.

Then there's the fact that everyone who already knew the truth either treated him like complete crap or coddled him because he was the bastard prince.

He's also embarassed about his birth, or did you never hear the banter between him and Leliana about him becoming king. "A star struck serving girl and an indescrete man who happened to be king" is how refers to his parents.

In summery, he has absolutely no reason to WANT to own up to his birth as it has brought him nothing but grief. He's never had a real home or family because of it. Everyone who knows sees his blood first, and not who he is inside, and treats him accordingly based on that one simple fact rather than anything he's accomplished on his own. It's no wonder he's got issues. That you can't recognize that there's a legitimate reason for these issues and that he has legitimate reasons for his actions is your problem.

[/quote]


Look, I'm sorry if taking words from Alistair's mouth hurts your feelings, but really, there's nothing I can do about that, you'll have to deal with it however you deem fit.  It's fairly obvious to me that you want me to say that Alistair is a prince amongst men, and I'm truly sorry, you're not going to hear that.  As I said, it's obvious to me that I know more about him than you do, as I don't role play an Alistair fangirl every time I play.  There's a reason why the writers would include "Or you can just be an ass about it" in a response to something he says, and there's also a reason "It's about time", or "finally", which ever it is that you get when Anora has him killed at the Landsmeet.  So, I don't wear blinders and pretend that he's all peachy.  So what?  Does that affect your game at all?[/quote]

Robert, this is the third time you put words in my mouth.

My problem with your complains is that they're based on what you believe everybody should, and expecting the character to be cardboard cut outs that do what you say, when you say.

If you said "I don't like Alistair because I find his sense of humor juvenile", I'd have no problem with it. I'd disagree but have no problem. But hating him for not going completely opposite of his character is rediculious. You take none of his character traits into consideration but declare "he should do this" just because it would benefit you.

There's a great David Gaider post on this:

Spoilers Forum | David Gaider | Wed Nov 18 19:30:28 2009

The joys and pains of romancing Alistair
[[quote]Walina wrote...

I found it strange that it will be hard to convince Alistair to let Loghain die at his place, why ?
1) You can convince him to become king when he doesn't want to
2) You can convince him to sleep with Morrigan
3) You can ask him to join a threesome
4) You can convince him to let Zevran on the team
5) You can kill Isolde or anyone you and he will remain at your side (till he had enough though)

Come
on, tell me why should it be harder to ask him let go of Loghain when
you just manipulated him earlier ? ^^ Unless, he care more about
revenge than the PC ? It will be so unlike him in my opinion [/quote]

Then apparently you don't know him very well.

You
can convince him to become King because him not wanting to be a King is
based entirely on his self-esteem. He doesn't think he would be a good
King. He doesn't think anyone would want him there. Is it surprising
that someone he loves telling him he should be King after all might be
something he'd consider?

You can convince him to sleep with
Morrigan. Yes, but this has nothing to do with contravening his duty.
He has no duty to NOT sleep with Morrigan. He never promised not to
give her a baby, and while he doesn't like her she's never
DONE anything to him. Chances are, even if you bring up the baby he'll
only agree if he knows the ritual will save your life. Or SOMEONE'S
life. He's not even concerned about his own.

You can convince
him to join a threesome. Again, he's not celibate, or even a prude
really. Twisting someone's rubber arm is not exactly a giant leap for
his character.

You can convince him to let Zevran join the team.
And why couldn't you? Zevran attacked you all, yes, but he didn't kill
anyone in the party. If Zevran had, do you think Alistair would have
been so eager? Hardly. He doesn't trust Zevran, but it's not as if
Zevran killed Duncan or any of his friends.

He will remain at
your side after killing Isolde or Connor, yes, but keep in mind the
difference here: at some level he feels he owes Arl Eamon and is angry
about being directly (or indirectly) responsible for the death of his
wife or son -- but their deaths break no promise of his. It's not as if
he didn't know something needed to be done in Redcliffe, he's simply
very upset how it went down.

With Loghain, however, it's a
different matter. He swore that the man would die. Loghain is
responsible for the death of Duncan and all his friends in the Grey
Wardens. He thinks the man is evil, and if anything his DUTY would be
to keep him OUT of the Grey Wardens.

You think Alistair could be
convinced because you want to think that. Alistair isn't spineless, but
you're arguing that he is and should bend to your every whim because--
why? Because you're selfish? I get the desire behind it, but let's not
mistake one thing for the other. Anyone saying they "know Alistair" and
believe he would actually do such a thing is ignoring one of the most
important things about him.

If you really want to change
Alistair into someone else because that makes it more convenient to
have your happy ending, I get it and I understand. But I know my
character.]



Robert, you want the same thing. You ignore one of the most fundemental parts of Alistair's character: the fact that he needs to seperate himself from the circumstances of his birth, and expect him to do what YOU want because YOU think he should.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...
That's right you do, but only if you get Warden's Keep. And how, since it never comes up any other time, is my PC to know it? I think this is a big oversight in the game. I've seen it quoted as reasoning for decisions made before but it's invalid if your PC doesn't know it.

It's in the 'Grey Warden handbook' didn't you know? All wardens are given one when they join... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

No, you are right unless you don't go to Wardens Keep you probably wouldn't know (I imagine it is written on the wall there somewhere). The thing is though does it not give validation as to why Riordan came up with the idea of suggesting Loghain joins? Loghain's past is well known by a lot of people, the Warden's party members other than possibly Wynne is not.

As I said before, it seems odd that the wardens aren't told it when they go through the ritual. It would make absolute sense to say it then. Once I found out about it, on playthroughs after it always irks me when Duncan mentions only saying a few words beforehand and all it is to do with is previous comrades rather than or just not including the actual motto.

It gives Riordan justification, yes. It doesn't explain why no one else is an option. My party members have been with me and loyal to me and the cause, this I know. I do not know that Loghain won't simply kill us in our sleep. Different people may have reasons for wanting Loghain over anyone else but I do not and have yet to play the PC who will (although he's my next playthrough). And if the PC has never heard it and the PC is the one given the choice, the creed can't actually be used as an argument for accepting Loghain.

I agree, the joining is the perfect place to have it said. It gives insight into what you've just entered into and considering all the important things they choose not to tell you, you'd think they'd at least want you to know what is expected of you now.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

eschilde wrote...

About the motto, it's possible that it is common knowledge in the realm, like griffons.

It can't be assumed your PC knows it. There is plenty that my Dalish knew of nothing of when it comes to civilization. She knew the ways of the Dalish but she did not know many of the things that may have been common knowledge to a human noble or rogue.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Whether this makes what he did villainous (he had obviously already begun to act against Cailan prior to Ostagar) or misguided and too easily susceptible to Arl Rendon's poisonous words is ultimately up to the player's perception.

Sigh, David Gaider crushes my perceptions of the game once again. A few things, though: unless he comes in here and confirms that Loghain planned that battle with the intention of getting Cailin killed, I will not believe it. (Innocent until proven guilty, after all, and in this case it would need the word of the Maker There is no doubt that Loghain intended to get rid of Eamon, which I wasn't disputing in any case. I just find it very difficult to believe that Loghain thought that the loss of those troops was worth getting rid of Cailin, for reasons I've already stated.

If he really did think that, then, uh, wow, Loghain really is.. not that good at tactical planning and maybe not really worth saving in the end >.> if that were the case, I would concede that Loghain was no longer capable of acting rationally and therefore could be labeled insane, also justifying killing him right away rather than letting him become a Warden.

The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

Considering that little scene after Zeveran leaves it's pretty darn obvious that Loghain's having regrets... The look on his face says it all, but he holds on for sheer stubborness rather than admitting he was wrong....

Plus you miss the part:


"You're
only going to ever get a better understanding of the why's involved in
what Loghain did if you get him in the party and speak to him, but
ultimately his decision was based on the fact that he didn't believe
this was actually a Blight -- *couldn't* believe it, in fact, because
if it was it made the witch's prophecy true and thus everything else
she said true as well. Including the betrayals. About half-way through
the game he realizes he is wrong, but at that point the die is already
cast."

And the only way it seems that you can break through his stubborness and insanity is nearly killing him at least once. Even then, the only reason he's willing to accept you is that he finally sees the strength in your character, a strength he hasn't seen since Maric. He doesn't admit he was wrong (say like Alistair does) in anything he did. He just accepts you have a strength that he believe Cailan lacked.

I actually agree with this.  He's dug himself a hole, and all he can do is ride it out.  Changing tactics now would only serve to undermine himself.  He is not the hero he once was, but, he can be a moral booster to troops that either served with him against Orlais, or who's fathers did, and they've heard the stories.  I still don't see conscription as forgiveness, and there might have been things I'd do differently end game, after the Archdemon, but for the sake of the Blight, I'll do what I have to do.  Just a minor addendum to what I bolded above, he does admit being wrong about you, which is part of the strength he hasn't seen since Maric thing.  So I'd say he doesn't admit being wrong about everything he did, as opposed to anything he did, but that's a minor point.

Thing is... a bigger man, a better man, wouldn't have care as much about what happened to him as he would be about fixing the problems he cause, even if he's not directly involved in the solutions. This is where Loghain and his daughter are extremely weak as leaders.

[eschilde]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...
That's right you do, but only if you get Warden's Keep. And how, since it never comes up any other time, is my PC to know it? I think this is a big oversight in the game. I've seen it quoted as reasoning for decisions made before but it's invalid if your PC doesn't know it.

It's in the 'Grey Warden handbook' didn't you know? All wardens are given one when they join... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

No, you are right unless you don't go to Wardens Keep you probably wouldn't know (I imagine it is written on the wall there somewhere). The thing is though does it not give validation as to why Riordan came up with the idea of suggesting Loghain joins? Loghain's past is well known by a lot of people, the Warden's party members other than possibly Wynne is not.

As I said before, it seems odd that the wardens aren't told it when they go through the ritual. It would make absolute sense to say it then. Once I found out about it, on playthroughs after it always irks me when Duncan mentions only saying a few words beforehand and all it is to do with is previous comrades rather than or just not including the actual motto.

It gives Riordan justification, yes. It doesn't explain why no one else is an option. My party members have been with me and loyal to me and the cause, this I know. I do not know that Loghain won't simply kill us in our sleep. Different people may have reasons for wanting Loghain over anyone else but I do not and have yet to play the PC who will (although he's my next playthrough). And if the PC has never heard it and the PC is the one given the choice, the creed can't actually be used as an argument for accepting Loghain.

I agree, the joining is the perfect place to have it said. It gives insight into what you've just entered into and considering all the important things they choose not to tell you, you'd think they'd at least want you to know what is expected of you now.

There are definitely some weird things going on with the Joining, like Anora knowing it's often fatal, or Riordan saying you can't do the Joining because you have no archdemon blood, but magically finding it at the Landmeet, but only if you don't use Alistair as a champion, and also having it magically disappear (or evidently dumping the entire stock rather than just a drop into the potion..) after recruiting Loghain. And if you choose not to recruit Loghain, you still have no option to use the blood to recruit anyone else, although, at that point, I think you're pretty pressed for time in the story, and there probably aren't any other options (although, yeah, I would love to be able to conscript Cauthrien instead of or alongside Loghain if you let her live after the Landsmeet..)

[eschilde]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

eschilde wrote...

About the motto, it's possible that it is common knowledge in the realm, like griffons.

It can't be assumed your PC knows it. There is plenty that my Dalish knew of nothing of when it comes to civilization. She knew the ways of the Dalish but she did not know many of the things that may have been common knowledge to a human noble or rogue.

Hm, I haven't played that far with a Dalish, but if you talk to Wynne, do you still get an option for griffons? I agree that it is an oversight by Bioware that you are not actually told what the motto is by Duncan or Alistair, but it's not such an outlandish concept for the motto to be something like common knowledge.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I actually agree with this.  He's dug himself a hole, and all he can do is ride it out.  Changing tactics now would only serve to undermine himself.  He is not the hero he once was, but, he can be a moral booster to troops that either served with him against Orlais, or who's fathers did, and they've heard the stories.  I still don't see conscription as forgiveness, and there might have been things I'd do differently end game, after the Archdemon, but for the sake of the Blight, I'll do what I have to do.  Just a minor addendum to what I bolded above, he does admit being wrong about you, which is part of the strength he hasn't seen since Maric thing.  So I'd say he doesn't admit being wrong about everything he did, as opposed to anything he did, but that's a minor point.

Thing is... a bigger man, a better man, wouldn't have care as much about what happened to him as he would be about fixing the problems he cause, even if he's not directly involved in the solutions. This is where Loghain and his daughter are extremely weak as leaders.

This ties back directly to what I said about after the Blight.  After it's all said and done, we're forced into ending credits.  If I could play out the rest of the politcs then, I would be very much in support of a trial for Loghain, if he survives the Landsmeet.  Let the people decide his fate then.  However, he does want to make amends, and will even try to take the killing blow to redeem himself, which would also come around to making amends for his wrong doings, by paying with his life.  Either way, he dies.  This way, he does get to restore some of his honor, but it's still understood that w/out the PC, Ferelden would have likely fallen.  Anyway, it's on each individual playing how they see events unfolding, and what they think they should do.

[Ariella]

eschilde wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

eschilde wrote...

About the motto, it's possible that it is common knowledge in the realm, like griffons.

It can't be assumed your PC knows it. There is plenty that my Dalish knew of nothing of when it comes to civilization. She knew the ways of the Dalish but she did not know many of the things that may have been common knowledge to a human noble or rogue.

Hm, I haven't played that far with a Dalish, but if you talk to Wynne, do you still get an option for griffons? I agree that it is an oversight by Bioware that you are not actually told what the motto is by Duncan or Alistair, but it's not such an outlandish concept for the motto to be something like common knowledge.

Well considering that by the time you get to Ostagar you've probably seen the GW battle standard and know there's some connection between these bird things and the Wardens.

[Ariella]

imported_beer wrote...

I hate Alistair
That whiny prat
always cribbing about
this or that
And when I have it
figured out
the guy throws a tantrum
and POUTS!
He cost me an achievement
How dare he, the jerk!
How dare he choose his own time
to go all beserk?
He doesn't soak damage (don't blame my levelling)
He fights with my goth chick
He likes only that creepy old mage
What the frik?
It is all Gaider's fault
he doesn't know how to write
I could do better
I have MAJOR INSIGHTS!!
I hate Dragon age
and Bioware too
They ruined my life
They made me blue
I hate freedom, and the dog
I hate Loghain and Sten
And Leliana and Oghren
And when can I KILL Zevran, oh when oh when!
I hate Alistair, I loathe him
the reason is plain to see
I merely wish for him to be less whiny
Like I am showing myself to be.

This belongs in A Light in the Attic, I_B, and I hope you understand that's a major complement in my book

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Do I need to go over this AGAIN? Loghain is a dangerous, crazy man who's proven that his word means nothing, that's he capable and willing to kill pretty much anyone and a man who still has some power and suporters. He doesn't magicly stop being a danger just because he passes the Joining. His schizio.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure many others feel like you, but it's really hard to take you serious when you insist on calling your opinion a proven fact.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
His sudden change of heart at the duel makes NO FRIGGIN SENSE.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that Loghain is poorly written and that the fact that he does act dutifully after he is beaten represents bad game development? Because if you don't then I can't understand what you are after, and if you do then it is hard to take anything you say seriously as you are not even constrained by the facts of the game.

To me it makes sense. Loghain respects strength. He worshipped Maric, but despises Calien who he thinks is weak. No doubt does the fact that Cailen cheats on his daughter play a part too, especially as Loghain himself sacrificed love for respect of his King and the country. Prove to him that you have the same strength he saw in Maric and that you are doing it to save Ferelden and he will follow you. It seems plausible to me, but is that just bad writing from the game designers to you???

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Alistair (from his effeminate voice to his effeminate name) was tailor-made for someone's idealized image of what a woman might want from a companion.

I have to agree with the OP in saying I hated him too.

Nothing wrong with that. Morrigan was obviously tailor-made to someone's image of what a male gamer might want as well. Nothing wrong with balanced intentions, especially since most of the actual game was tailored towards the male gamer.

I can only hope, however, that in the sequel when we hopefully get back to the real storyline (not this side story "expansion") concerning the child.....in this world it would be cannon for Alistair to have shown himself to have been a weak pansy who couldn't let his personal desires for revenge take backseat to doing what had to be done.

ie: I hope his official ending was becoming a worthless drunk in a bar. That would make me very happy.

[Shatriya]

Interesting viewpoints.



While I am sure some would characterize me as a Alistair fangirl... I look at issues logically. I like Alistair for many reasons. Won't go into all of them but I started playing DAO due to a friend paying for my strat book (don't hang me) and the CD. However, I never did read through the entire book except for stats and what was available for what class. It was more of a reference guide. So you *could* call me a metagamer. Not that it is bad necessarily.



I told my friend that reading the codex entries and listening to not just the dialog choices you get but the banter you hear, that it was far more complex than I first thought. And while the codes entries aren't gospel, you can glean the truth by listening or reading other information. Before coming to these boards I had figured out that Logain and Arl Howe were aligned and not in a good way.



Little hints are cast your way and some are subtle enough, just like a very good book or movie, each time you replay you see something you missed before. Duncan says to the King how Eamon is eager to join the fight. Yet you know by time you reach Lothering you hear rumors how Eamon is exceedingly ill. To my mind that meant some of this had to have been planned prior to the fight at Ostagar.



Alistairs creator did a very good job and the writing is so good you have to watch carefully or you flat out miss the nuances that are there just begging to be discovered.



What some haven't even touched on is the fact that the Cousland's are important here. In reading I discovered that they were considered for in line to the throne. I can't recall the exact entry or where I read it but it implied Bryce had a stronger claim than Cailan. Not sure if this was in regards to the Bannorn or not but maybe.



Which explained why Howe was determined to wipe the Cousland's out and why even tho Logain knew Cailan intended to mete out justice to Howe, he chose not to. And I don't buy that Anora was this great queen. For five years she had opportunities to better conditions of her poorer people yet she did nothing. Bettering the wealthy is easy, bettering and making life all around better for those at the bottom is far more difficult. I still think the wench was out for power.



Now we come to Uldred... Reason I believe Logain agreed to have blood mages take over the tower is Jowan. Instead of having him executed he has him go to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.



Why poison Eamon at all if Logain intended no harm to Cailan? Thats why I believe the beacon was a signal for Logain to quit the field rather than to join it. It was planned well in advance of Ostagar as I think the quote from David Gaider implies.



As for Alistair... he seems to be an extremely moral man. And he is extremely loyal unless the line is crossed where he has to choose the moral ground over loyalties. I understand that. And because of that having it pounded into his head he could never reveal who his father is, I don't find it surprising he lied about it. I still don't believe him informing the PC of this had any impact on the civil war that was happening. Maybe he should have, but knowing his background, I sure didn't give the option that I didn't know him anymore because I could understand where he was coming from.



I did however choose the line: Is that what you really think? And found it interesting that he felt he was lucky that he survived with the PC at the tower. Does he have a lot of issues? Sure but who among us here doesn't.



But I will also admit I am a huge reader of Middle Ages in England. Back then someone harmed your family or nobles warring with each other happened, you could expect the retribution to not only be swift but basically an eye for an eye. Which in my mind is precisely why I have Alistair fight and kill Logain at the Landsmeet. It is why I definitely want my hand to be the killing blow on Howe. Neither deserved mercy.



I especially enjoyed killing Howe with my Rogue after I listened to his denrigating comments and said I was proud to be a Grey Warden. Howe said my father would have approved but the way the PC presented him/herself was why the Couslands had been holding him back. So yes he was just begging to die if you ask me. So I obliged him without another thought.



Again, I have to say this is the best game I have ever played thats not a MMO. Thank you devs and thank you Bioware for the hours of enjoyment I have had.

[Maria13]

Interesting how this thread started out being about hating Alistair and ended up being about loving Alistair.



In my second playthrough I picked up how Cailan protected Alistair by immediately ordering Duncan to send him to the tower away from the fighting. This makes dynastic sense. Cailan has no heir, so his position has to be to protect his little bastard brother just in case things go ****** up, which, of course, they do. It's quite a canny move.



There's many hints made prior to Ostagar that Cailan is foolhardy and stupid but, perhaps as with Alistair, there is a kernel of wisdom to be found underneath that external impression that when the game starts neither of them have had time to develop.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

eschilde wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

eschilde wrote...

About the motto, it's possible that it is common knowledge in the realm, like griffons.

It can't be assumed your PC knows it. There is plenty that my Dalish knew of nothing of when it comes to civilization. She knew the ways of the Dalish but she did not know many of the things that may have been common knowledge to a human noble or rogue.

Hm, I haven't played that far with a Dalish, but if you talk to Wynne, do you still get an option for griffons? I agree that it is an oversight by Bioware that you are not actually told what the motto is by Duncan or Alistair, but it's not such an outlandish concept for the motto to be something like common knowledge.

I did and it confused me. It made more sense when I played as a human noble. No it's not an outlandish concept but it definitely cannot be assumed.

@ eschilde...

Exactly. Even Leliana knows that you drink darkspawn blood in the joining. I was like, uhhh... what? LOL

[Xandurpein]

Shatriya wrote...

What some haven't even touched on is the fact that the Cousland's are important here. In reading I discovered that they were considered for in line to the throne. I can't recall the exact entry or where I read it but it implied Bryce had a stronger claim than Cailan. Not sure if this was in regards to the Bannorn or not but maybe.

Which explained why Howe was determined to wipe the Cousland's out and why even tho Logain knew Cailan intended to mete out justice to Howe, he chose not to. And I don't buy that Anora was this great queen. For five years she had opportunities to better conditions of her poorer people yet she did nothing. Bettering the wealthy is easy, bettering and making life all around better for those at the bottom is far more difficult. I still think the wench was out for power.

The Cousland family is NOT second in line to the throne. There is no such thing. The Cousland family is one with as much prestige and heritage as Marics, so technically the Couslands could once have had a claim on the crown, but that is all mote. Maric led Ferelden to freedom, with the aid of Loghain, so Maric became the King. If Maric's line was to end, then the Landsmeet would decide who the next King would be. While the Teyrn of Cousland may have supporters then, there is nothing that says he will win.

The one person who have real reason to hate the Couslands is Arl Howe. It's made abundantly clear if you care to explore all the evidence available in the Human Noble beginning that there has been bad blood between the Howees and the Couslands for generations. The apparent friendship between Howe and Bryce is just a facade. Howe hates the Couslands with a vengeance. If nothing else, the scene when a Human Noble defeats Howe makes it abundantly clear. The attack on the Couslands is Howe's personal vendetta.

Shatriya wrote...

Now we come to Uldred... Reason I believe Logain agreed to have blood mages take over the tower is Jowan. Instead of having him executed he has him go to Redcliffe to poison Eamon.

There is nothing to suggest Loghain was in any way responsible for Uldred's rebellion. Even when Loghain is defeated and owns up to much of his actions, he will not admit to it. Or rather, in a conversation between him and Wynne he will be very sarcastic when Wynne tries to pin it on him. Uldred was Uldred's doing, not Loghains.

The rest of it is pretty much your personal opinions and while I don't share some of them I see no reason to comment on it. It's after all your opinions and not mine.

[Xandurpein]

Maria13 wrote...

Interesting how this thread started out being about hating Alistair and ended up being about loving Alistair.

In my second playthrough I picked up how Cailan protected Alistair by immediately ordering Duncan to send him to the tower away from the fighting. This makes dynastic sense. Cailan has no heir, so his position has to be to protect his little bastard brother just in case things go ****** up, which, of course, they do. It's quite a canny move.

There's many hints made prior to Ostagar that Cailan is foolhardy and stupid but, perhaps as with Alistair, there is a kernel of wisdom to be found underneath that external impression that when the game starts neither of them have had time to develop.

Not to mention the fact that any thread about Alistair usually have less than 30 minutes before it's all about Loghain, and sometimes vice versa

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

The Cousland family is NOT second in line to the throne. There is no such thing. The Cousland family is one with as much prestige and heritage as Marics, so technically the Couslands could once have had a claim on the crown, but that is all mote. Maric led Ferelden to freedom, with the aid of Loghain, so Maric became the King. If Maric's line was to end, then the Landsmeet would decide who the next King would be. While the Teyrn of Cousland may have supporters then, there is nothing that says he will win.

In the codex about Bryce Cousland, it says that many of the lords wanted him as king.  It's not so much that he's second to the throne, it's that if Cailin is dead, he would be the choice of the lords to become king if there is no Theirin to be on it.

Edit: cut out excessive quoting

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 janvier 2010 - 10:44 .

[Naamah_bb]

Maria13 wrote...

Interesting how this thread started out being about hating Alistair and ended up being about loving Alistair.

In my second playthrough I picked up how Cailan protected Alistair by immediately ordering Duncan to send him to the tower away from the fighting. This makes dynastic sense. Cailan has no heir, so his position has to be to protect his little bastard brother just in case things go ****** up, which, of course, they do. It's quite a canny move.

There's many hints made prior to Ostagar that Cailan is foolhardy and stupid but, perhaps as with Alistair, there is a kernel of wisdom to be found underneath that external impression that when the game starts neither of them have had time to develop.

This.
Alistair did the exact same thing if you put him on the throne. He keeps Anora locked, but alive and still a queen just in case he falls in battle with the archdemon. Wisdom.

No man is perfect, and none of us would behave the same way if we were in that situation. I respect him, if for nothing, then for his decision to stand his ground concerning Loghain.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Naamah_bb wrote...

No man is perfect, and none of us would behave the same way if we were in that situation. I respect him, if for nothing, then for his decision to stand his ground concerning Loghain.

It's always interesting to find what a person finds to respect in another.

It was that exact personal motivation taking precedence over the obligations of being a Warden that caused me to disrespect our resident boy-toy. Especially when their kingdom was on the brink of being overrun by the Blight. Such selfishness to such extremes put him around the level of Howe on my characters-I'd-enjoy-dipping-up-and-down-into-a-pit-of-darkspawn list. When we remake the wardens in the expansion, we'll have to make sure we add something to the initiation process to better weed out selfish weaklings like that.

Not that it was unexpected. He was written as a weak character (not his fault really) as it was the only way to write him in as a senior warden bowing down to you, the rookie (and hero). 

But I still disliked his hissy fit and wish I could have had the option to dispatch him with my sword at the Landsmeet as an alternative option as I gave a stirring speech about strength in the face of the doom swarming towards us from the south.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 06 janvier 2010 - 10:59 .

[Naamah_bb]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's always interesting to find what a person finds to respect in another.

It was that exact personal motivation taking precedence over the obligations of being a Warden that caused me to disrespect our resident boy-toy.

Not that it was unexpected. He was written as a weak character (not his fault really) as it was the only way to write him in as a senior warden bowing down to you, the rookie (and hero). 

But I still disliked his hissy fit and wish I could have had the option to dispatch him with my sword at the Landsmeet as an alternative option as I gave a stirring speech about strength in the face of the doom swarming towards us from the south.

As I said. I would like to see you, or any of us in his situation...
It's like you have a friend that is a policeman and he decides to leave his duty as one because he nas become  disappointed in the system that surrounds him.

[Xandurpein]

ejoslin wrote...

In the codex about Bryce Cousland, it says that many of the lords wanted him as king.  It's not so much that he's second to the throne, it's that if Cailin is dead, he would be the choice of the lords to become king if there is no Theirin to be on it.

But Loghain has no reason to kill Bryce Cousland. He has Anora and she already IS Queen of Ferelden (not consort mind you). There is almost no chance that there would be enough support to depose Anora and replace her with Bryce Cousland. It took quite a feat to make the Landsmeet to accept Alistair - and he IS of Maric's blood.

I'm not saying Loghain couldn't have any reasons to want Bryce Cousland dead, but I don't know of any and securing the throne for Anora is NOT plausible.