555 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

I believe that Loghain knew nothing of Uldred's plan on using blood mages. I do believe he told Uldred that if the tower threw its weight behind him, he would, in turn better the position of the mages. How Uldred went ahead with that, Loghain had no knowledge of.



I believe the battle at Ostagar was already lost. It does not excuse Loghain's other crimes, but this is validated by Wynne of all people. Why would Wynne, who hates Loghain's guts, lie for him?



We could speculate from here to Sunday about why Loghain had Eamon poisoned. I think at some point in the game it is even mentioned that, yes, Loghain thought about taking the throne, and wanted Eamon out of the way until things are settled, but it never states whether it was to be accomplished through a palace revolt, or by chancing it that the King would perish at Ostagar.



Neither Cailan nor Loghain believed it was a Blight, but rather a large raiding horde. There is no guarantee that Cailan would fall on the field, unless Loghain planned to stick the murder knife into the king in full view of many, many people. Aside from that, the kind already successfully defeated three other darkspawn attacks. There is no reason to assume that he would succumb this time around.



I despise Alistair for many reasons. I will continue to despise him, and no one and nothing can change my mind. I don't have to give anyone any reason for that, because it's no one's business but mine. Last time I looked, I paid for the game, that I play at my computer, with my ideas and with my interpretations. I will stick him into the camp the first chance I get - everytime. I don't want him with me. I don't want to hear him. I don't want to see him. And you know what? I can do that, and no one can make me change that against my will. I role-play the way I want to and I always will.



Sometimes Loghain lives. Sometimes he dies. Depends on how I'm playing. But Alistair will always sit in camp. Yes, I dislike him that much.



I would never, no matter how I role-play, offer up my companions as GW recruits. The chance of them dying is just far too great a risk for my PCs. I don't want to take the chance on Cauthrien dying either. I don't mind Loghain taking the risk, his life is forfeit anyway. If he lives, he gets the chance to at least regain a bit of honor and die for his beloved Ferelden. If he dies, well, he's dead, I guess.

[Xandurpein]

Naamah_bb wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's always interesting to find what a person finds to respect in another.

It was that exact personal motivation taking precedence over the obligations of being a Warden that caused me to disrespect our resident boy-toy.

Not that it was unexpected. He was written as a weak character (not his fault really) as it was the only way to write him in as a senior warden bowing down to you, the rookie (and hero). 

But I still disliked his hissy fit and wish I could have had the option to dispatch him with my sword at the Landsmeet as an alternative option as I gave a stirring speech about strength in the face of the doom swarming towards us from the south.

As I said. I would like to see you, or any of us in his situation...
It's like you have a friend that is a policeman and he decides to leave his duty as one because he nas become  disappointed in the system that surrounds him.

If that policeman was a leading officer near the end of a case involving someone trying to detonate a nuclear bomb that would blow up a major city and he decided to stop trying to catch the guys who prepared to do it, because he got sick of the system there would be some similiarity I suppose...

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Naamah_bb wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's always interesting to find what a person finds to respect in another.

It was that exact personal motivation taking precedence over the obligations of being a Warden that caused me to disrespect our resident boy-toy.

Not that it was unexpected. He was written as a weak character (not his fault really) as it was the only way to write him in as a senior warden bowing down to you, the rookie (and hero). 

But I still disliked his hissy fit and wish I could have had the option to dispatch him with my sword at the Landsmeet as an alternative option as I gave a stirring speech about strength in the face of the doom swarming towards us from the south.

As I said. I would like to see you, or any of us in his situation...
It's like you have a friend that is a policeman and he decides to leave his duty as one because he nas become  disappointed in the system that surrounds him.

But we were in his situation. And unless we were Alistair clones with nerves of rubber, we probably had Logain initiated into the Wardens rather than succumb to personal desires for revenge as our world was crumbling to ruin around us.

With the whole online profile thing, I wonder if there was any way for Bioware to keep anonymous tabs on statistics concerning such decisions made by the playerbase as a whole. Would make interesting perusing and fascinating fodder for conversations of the psyche of the playerbase.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sabriana wrote...


I would never, no matter how I role-play, offer up my companions as GW recruits. The chance of them dying is just far too great a risk for my PCs. I don't want to take the chance on Cauthrien dying either. I don't mind Loghain taking the risk, his life is forfeit anyway. If he lives, he gets the chance to at least regain a bit of honor and die for his beloved Ferelden. If he dies, well, he's dead, I guess.

But if you'd do anything to save Ferelden, why wouldn't you take a companion as a GW? I'm not saying force the RoC but at least take volunteer(s)? And for me, the chance that Loghain has a chance to regain honor is one of the exact reasons why I don't want to spare him. I especially don't want him to die with honor as a GW.

I'm curious why you want to save Cauthrien from becoming a GW? I've always ended up killing her so does she play some kind of role to help stop the blight? She would actually be my first choice. She was following her general turned regent in the things she did so while wrong, I don't see her crimes unworthy of letting her atone for them and being allowed the chance to be a hero I see as a good thing. She also proved strong and loyal, a perfect GW candidate; the most perfect of all the choices actually. IMO of course.

[Sarai Noelle]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

And for me, the chance that Loghain has a chance to regain honor is one of the exact reasons why I don't want to spare him. I especially don't want him to die with honor as a GW.

Agreed.  I think Loghain is too much of a dirt bag.  I kill him everytime.

[Naamah_bb]

Xandurpein wrote...

If that policeman was a leading officer near the end of a case involving someone trying to detonate a nuclear bomb that would blow up a major city and he decided to stop trying to catch the guys who prepared to do it, because he got sick of the system there would be some similiarity I suppose...

No, you are with that policeman and you decide that you will spare the dude who made the bomb tick even quicker (metaphorically speaking). Oh, and that dude that you spared also was constantly putting obstacles in your investigation up until you cought him. But...not only you didn't arrest him, you said - hey man, wanna join us? Disappointed by the lack of justice, your friend walks away. The end.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, Cauthrien knew that what Loghain was doing was wrong. With high enough coercion/cunning you can get her to admit that he was in the wrong. She's not without honor, but Loghain was a hero to her, and she had this huge blind spot about him up to the end. I think Cauthrien would probably make a decent Warden, should she survive the Joining. Cauthrien I could live recruiting, as for companions...I really wouldn't want any of them to die myself. As for Loghain, I read the books & empathize to an extent, but even if it were for the greater good, I just can't stand keeping him long-term (I spared him once for the achievement, but no...on a personal level, I couldn't allow that after the things he did - so be it if my Warden fails for having a moral code - heh).

** Aside from editing a few typos - actually, it was interesting conversing with Loghain after the one time I picked him up, but other than that, I have little desire to spend time around him (and usually I'm a believer in allowing someone a chance at redemption, but sometimes...no).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:50 .

[Sabriana]

@ Eruanna:

Simply because I do want to do anything I can for Ferelden. My companions have proven themselves to be formidable fighters, and I don't want to risk losing them. Not this close to the end. At my PCs joining she was the only survivor. Yes, Jory didn't die of the taint, he died because he changed his mind. Would Riordan stick a knife into one of my companions if he/she changed her/his mind? Maybe. Maybe not. He doesn't stick one in Alistair when he leaves, so chances are he wouldn't.

My companions I need alive and kicking their usual butt.



Wynne is my only competent healer, and the chances of her survival would be slim at best

Morrigan would tell me to stick it where the sun don't shine

Oghren might do it, but I don't want to take the risk to lose him

Same for Zevran

Same for Leliana

Sten would decline, at least the Sten I view him as being

Shale and my dog are out of it by default

No, I don't want to risk it. Ferelden needs them alive.

Due to the way I play her, my PC would not conscript anyone against their will. That's how I played her, and conscription would be completely out of character for her.

Cauthrien is an awesome fighter. I need her to lead the troops. She already knows how they work and how they tick. She's the second in command, and Loghain's troops would follow her, because they are in the habit of doing just that.

Loghain can't do that any longer. If he survives he is stripped off all power, all titles, all commands, and if he dies he's just that: dead.

[eschilde]

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

In the codex about Bryce Cousland, it says that many of the lords wanted him as king.  It's not so much that he's second to the throne, it's that if Cailin is dead, he would be the choice of the lords to become king if there is no Theirin to be on it.

But Loghain has no reason to kill Bryce Cousland. He has Anora and she already IS Queen of Ferelden (not consort mind you). There is almost no chance that there would be enough support to depose Anora and replace her with Bryce Cousland. It took quite a feat to make the Landsmeet to accept Alistair - and he IS of Maric's blood.

I'm not saying Loghain couldn't have any reasons to want Bryce Cousland dead, but I don't know of any and securing the throne for Anora is NOT plausible.

Well, it could be plausible in a really roundabout way. The Couslands are royalists and would support Alistair if he was put forward, which is the first thing Eamon thinks of doing upon waking up from being poisoned. It's assumed that Loghain knows about Alistair, and in reality Eamon does not have a stronger claim to the throne than Anora, so getting rid of the Couslands in favor of Howe does actually make it more likely that Anora's seat will be more secure.

[robertthebard]

Naamah_bb wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

It's always interesting to find what a person finds to respect in another.

It was that exact personal motivation taking precedence over the obligations of being a Warden that caused me to disrespect our resident boy-toy.

Not that it was unexpected. He was written as a weak character (not his fault really) as it was the only way to write him in as a senior warden bowing down to you, the rookie (and hero). 

But I still disliked his hissy fit and wish I could have had the option to dispatch him with my sword at the Landsmeet as an alternative option as I gave a stirring speech about strength in the face of the doom swarming towards us from the south.

As I said. I would like to see you, or any of us in his situation...
It's like you have a friend that is a policeman and he decides to leave his duty as one because he nas become  disappointed in the system that surrounds him.

Um, no.  It's really nothing like that.  If my friend the cop decides to leave the force, there are lots of other cops to take his place.  I fail to see any parallels.  A Blight won't eat up my home town, even if he doesn't quit.  Earlier in this thread, or perhaps in another, I mentioned about my friend getting gunned down on the street right in front of his wife, and also noted that despite the skills, and the means, the guy that killed him isn't dead.  Pretty easy to figure out who he is, his wife saw the whole thing, and he died in her arms when the guy ran off.  We let the law handle it, and even though he didn't get the death penalty, or life in prison, we didn't finish the job.  Why?  Because we were mature enough to know that simply killing the guy wouldn't bring our friend back, and that any help we could give his widow would be negated by being in prison, or on death row, since we do have the death penalty here.

[Xandurpein]

eschilde wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

In the codex about Bryce Cousland, it says that many of the lords wanted him as king.  It's not so much that he's second to the throne, it's that if Cailin is dead, he would be the choice of the lords to become king if there is no Theirin to be on it.

But Loghain has no reason to kill Bryce Cousland. He has Anora and she already IS Queen of Ferelden (not consort mind you). There is almost no chance that there would be enough support to depose Anora and replace her with Bryce Cousland. It took quite a feat to make the Landsmeet to accept Alistair - and he IS of Maric's blood.

I'm not saying Loghain couldn't have any reasons to want Bryce Cousland dead, but I don't know of any and securing the throne for Anora is NOT plausible.

Well, it could be plausible in a really roundabout way. The Couslands are royalists and would support Alistair if he was put forward, which is the first thing Eamon thinks of doing upon waking up from being poisoned. It's assumed that Loghain knows about Alistair, and in reality Eamon does not have a stronger claim to the throne than Anora, so getting rid of the Couslands in favor of Howe does actually make it more likely that Anora's seat will be more secure.

That argument calls for a few assumptions, even if it's not totally implausible. I for one still think that the evidence for that Howe nurtures a vendetta against the Couslands is far stronger than for any supposed gain Loghain might have. If Loghain did harbour any thoughts about the Couslands being a major problem for him it would be because of Howe's poison.

[Lotion Soronarr]

WTF is wrong with hte forums????

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I click ones and I get a quadripple post??? Frak, too bad I can't delete the extras...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

You misunderstand. Him relising killing Cailan and half the army at Ostagar made sense - he was faced with the disastrous consequences of it.
What doesn't make sense is that he goes from "The PC is a orlesian spy and Al is jsut a puppet! You are enemeis of Ferelden" to "You're a good man for Ferelden." in a space of a singel duel.

He was ready to kill off the Landsmeet even if it voted agasint him, just to keep you and Al from getting power. What kind of insigt could he possibly gotten out of the duel? Sicne when does being bested in combat prove that the Pc is not an orlesian spy?
THAT twist in reasoning is the schizio part I was reffering too.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

You misunderstand. Him relising killing Cailan and half the army at Ostagar made sense - he was faced with the disastrous consequences of it.
What doesn't make sense is that he goes from "The PC is a orlesian spy and Al is jsut a puppet! You are enemeis of Ferelden" to "You're a good man for Ferelden." in a space of a singel duel.

He was ready to kill off the Landsmeet even if it voted agasint him, just to keep you and Al from getting power. What kind of insigt could he possibly gotten out of the duel? Sicne when does being bested in combat prove that the Pc is not an orlesian spy?
THAT twist in reasoning is the schizio part I was reffering too.

****

Aklso, regarding the GW's from Orlais. Either they are coming or they are not.
If they are coming then Al was right in thinking his leaving doesn't put the country in danger.
If they are not coming then you could argue that the PC is going agaisnt the GW's. After all, if 200 Grey Wardens decide to write off Ferelden because their duty is to stop the Blight, and not save Ferelden, and think that tehy're better off consolidating in Orlais,  then shouldn' the PC follow their decision too?

IPerrin wrote...
And right now I think if anyone's putting their finger in an electric outlet its you, with statements like those, on a thread like this.

I dont' have to act wise all the time

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 janvier 2010 - 07:44 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
The fun part of that is going to be the part where "the voice of God" says that about half way through the game, Loghain had already begun to see that he was wrong, but that his die was already cast.  At that point he has to play the hand he's dealt, and it sucks to be him.  However, it does clear up the "sudden conversion" at the Landsmeet.  He's playing his cards the best he can, until he's beaten, and knows it's time to get down to business.  Just a random interpretation of the events, but one that certainly makes sense considering "the word of God".

You misunderstand. Him relising killing Cailan and half the army at Ostagar made sense - he was faced with the disastrous consequences of it.
What doesn't make sense is that he goes from "The PC is a orlesian spy and Al is jsut a puppet! You are enemeis of Ferelden" to "You're a good man for Ferelden." in a space of a singel duel.

But that is all your assumption! You assume that he thinks the player is an Orlesian spy just before the duel, or anytime else for that matter. Loghain thinks Cailen is a traitor for inviting Orlesian chevaliers and probably thinks Duncan is suspicious too. But there is nothing in the game that rules out the possibility that he is having lots of doubt about many actions since then. He is however stuck and the die is cast.

His plan was to eliminate the "traitor" Cailen and then bring the rest of the nobles in line so a united Ferelden could halt the Orlesians and then stop the Darkspawn (as he explains it to Anora). Now he faces a civil war that weakens Ferelden, but in his mind the Grey Wardens are the divisive factor - not he. It's still reasonable to imagine him starting to have doubts about his actions though. It's obvious that his heart isn't in it when he agrees to Howe's plan to recruit the Antivan Crows.

The PC is really up until then a great unknown to him, apart from a few fleeting moments at Ostagar. The PC does a good job of impressing him as a strong person at the Landsmeet. Even if he doesn't immediatly trust the PC he knows he has lost and the only way he can continue to do some good for the country is as a Grey Warden, so he swallows his pride and accepts what he thinks is best for Ferelden. No doubt he would try to kill the PC if he said "Screw Denerim, let's go to pick up the Orlesian help instead", but that option is not in the Game. Until then it's reasonable for him to give the PC the benefit of doubt as long as he does what is best for Ferelden, especially as the PC  have gotten the trust of Anora, his daughter.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:00 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I mean that he shows no respect for you and thinks you're bad for Ferelden. If he didn't think that, he wouldn't try to stop you at all costs.

How does defeating him change that fact? How does being a better swordsman make you a good person?

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I mean that he shows no respect for you and thinks you're bad for Ferelden. If he didn't think that, he wouldn't try to stop you at all costs.
How does defeating him change that fact? How does being a better swordsman make you a good person?

Loghain respects strength. He respects you because you beat him, not just physically, but also politically. You outmaneuver him and he looses. The fact that you can gather an army and beat him makes him respect you.
Personally I don't think being a better swordsman make you a better person in any way, but I think it would impress Loghain, especially if it was coupled with the leadership required to gather the treaties from elves,dwarves and mages and all that.

/Edit. At heart I don't think Loghain is a politically very savvy person. He is born a peasant and grew up as leader of a rebellion. For him a leader his someone who can lead a brutal war of liberation, like he and Maric did. The nature of medieval warfare, especially small scale guerilla war, would no doubt further influence him to see physical prowess as something highly sought for in a leader. That's how he grew up and it must have coloured the mans whole life.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 janvier 2010 - 12:25 .

[eschilde]

Xandurpein wrote...
That argument calls for a few assumptions, even if it's not totally implausible. I for one still think that the evidence for that Howe nurtures a vendetta against the Couslands is far stronger than for any supposed gain Loghain might have. If Loghain did harbour any thoughts about the Couslands being a major problem for him it would be because of Howe's poison.

Oh, I agree with that, I was just saying it's feasible that Loghain would believe that getting rid of the Couslands would work in his favor, therefore having more reason to ally with Howe prior to Ostagar. There's no doubt that the Cousland massacre is Howe's bright idea.

[Sabriana]

You know, somehow or other I'm unable to see that Loghain would favor Howe over the Couslands. First of all, the Couslands were leaders in the war with Orlais, and they favored the rebellion from the get-go. Howe's clan on the other hand, had to be beaten into submission because they first sided with the Orlesian king.

Given Loghain's epic paranoia about all that is Orlais, I think he just believed the lies Howe told. Who could refute the weasel? Fergus is MIA the entire campaign until the very end, and the PC is busy gathering allies. And besides, even if my PC could get to Loghain, at that point she's as much an Orlesian traitor to him as Cailan/Duncan/whoever mentions Orlais.

[Jonnerz]

I'd avise using either Shale, your hero or when neither are present/would be good, even Sten to take the role of the heavy hitter. Have Alistair in amazing armour set to 'Defender', and allow him to take the brunt of the enemy hits while you wallop them from behind.

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, somehow or other I'm unable to see that Loghain would favor Howe over the Couslands. First of all, the Couslands were leaders in the war with Orlais, and they favored the rebellion from the get-go. Howe's clan on the other hand, had to be beaten into submission because they first sided with the Orlesian king.
Given Loghain's epic paranoia about all that is Orlais, I think he just believed the lies Howe told. Who could refute the weasel? Fergus is MIA the entire campaign until the very end, and the PC is busy gathering allies. And besides, even if my PC could get to Loghain, at that point she's as much an Orlesian traitor to him as Cailan/Duncan/whoever mentions Orlais.

That's pretty much my idea too.

[Sialater]

IIRC, there was something about Bryce Cousland meeting with an Orlesian trade delegation. But I've only played the noble route once, so I could be mistaken.

[eschilde]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, somehow or other I'm unable to see that Loghain would favor Howe over the Couslands. First of all, the Couslands were leaders in the war with Orlais, and they favored the rebellion from the get-go. Howe's clan on the other hand, had to be beaten into submission because they first sided with the Orlesian king.
Given Loghain's epic paranoia about all that is Orlais, I think he just believed the lies Howe told. Who could refute the weasel? Fergus is MIA the entire campaign until the very end, and the PC is busy gathering allies. And besides, even if my PC could get to Loghain, at that point she's as much an Orlesian traitor to him as Cailan/Duncan/whoever mentions Orlais.

Well, they weren't exactly lies, Eleanor mentions that Bryce at least made a trip to Orlais (and was mistaken for the king, heh). Highever is located on the north side of Fereldan, along the Waking Sea, so it's probably a port town with a lot of foreign trade. I believe Howe's bitterness about the Couslands is something that had been passed down in his family, ever since the Couslands first took the teyrnir (which was before even King Calenhad, if I'm not mistaken) so making them out to be traitors on his part was probably his looking for chinks in their armor, so to speak, but it is true that the Couslands were friendly with the Orlesians. 

Edit: I'm saying friendly in a liberal sense of the word. It seems like they were trying to establish friendly relations, rather than being buddy-buddy with each other.

(I would also guess that Howe's remaining family will be extremely bitter after the whole deal if you play as HN. Not the last of them, perhaps?)

Modifié par eschilde, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:20 .

[Walina]

@ ckriley : did you failed to harden Alistair ? >.>"