555 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Creature 1 wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Of course my other sister is a bit like you, a mood spoiler.

I like her already! 

Really? Nobody else does, she's a whiner actually and has no sense of humour at all.

[SleelofWpg]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sialater wrote...
As far as the whining goes.... y'all really don't know a lot of whiners IRL, then do you. As far as fictional characters go, Alistair whines less than Luke Skywalker and WAY less than Anakin Skywalker.

I didn't care for their whining either! 

 Have to agree there. Were many times I wanted to ****slap them, with rings on.


Sleel

[SleelofWpg]

trh5001 wrote...

I don't see how choosing Harrowmont dooms Orzammar. Yes it makes them more insulated and the caste system survives but the caste system had been around for hundreds of years and they were already pretty well insulated not quite seeing the doom in that. It may not be ideal but it doesn't lead to the end of the Dwarves.

  Calcified societies die. Or does being pushed back to just two cities mean they are thriving and the 'old ways' working out just ducky.


Sleel

[robertthebard]

Few87 wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Yep, and in real life, when somebody is that much of a whiner, I can kick them to the curb. Can't do that with Alistair, he still has to breathe my air in camp.

I wish I could kick you in the curb. Your'e the worst whiner ever.

At least Al has a legitimate reason for whining and runs out of whines eventually.
Your comes down to "I hate this guy", and you keep going like an energizer bunny.

Pwnd.

Haahahah HA, I almost wet myself!

I was just going to continue laughing at this, but I just have to point out that you, Lotion, persist in responding to me.  Your drive to protect Alistair at all costs, because you like virgins, gets you to contradicting yourself about situations in game, leaving facts out, or just twisting them to fit what you mean at that time.  "It's a Grey Warden's responsibility to stop the Blight, even if they have to die to do so.  Hence doing the ritual with Morrigan is unwise, and should never be considered".  This despite the fact even if you do the ritual, the Blight is ended.

Then I'm treated to the Litany of Lotion about how Alistair did all these things to gather an army to stop the Blight, so he can be justified "sitting this one out" after the Landsmeet.  The claim that nobody knows what he's doing during the final battle, despite the epilog clearly states that he's on his way to get drunk, out of Ferelden.  Again, Alistair did nothing in my current game to gather my armies for the Blight.  Unless you count sitting at the fire playing with his dolls building an army?  In this game, the only NPC that's spoken directly to Alistair, well, two that aren't in party, are Flemeth, and Arl Eamon.  A plot that Alistair spent at the camp, BTW, just showed up when Eamon mentions putting him on the throne.  I managed to lose 20 approval from him for my killing of Connor, and calling him on using me to patch things up between him and Eamon, or attempting to.

Then there's the link in this thread, and the comment about how the PC would probably react a lot differently if they lost anything.  This despite my post that I have indeed buried some of my closest friends/surrogate family, and I didn't act the way you seem to think I should.  Perhaps that's because I reached down between my legs and discovered I had a pair, and acted accordingly, instead of spending a couple of years acting like I was 12.  My Bro's then 12 year old daughter, despite the 3 hours that she and I spent on their front porch crying when I found out about his death, handled her father's death a whole lot better than Alistair handles Duncans.  A relationship that, in so far as we know, was purely one sided.  Nothing in any interactions between Alistair and Duncan led me to believe that Duncan thought of Alistair as a son.  Maybe there's something in one of the books?  There's nothing that I have discovered in game to support it.  Hell, my first wife is dead, especially dead, has been for several years, and while I regret not finding out about it for 6 months, since we were divorced and don't live in the same city, so I was unable to attend her funeral, which did get to my daughter, that lived with her, I still didn't spend any significant amount of time dwelling on her death, and dragging my friends down with my emotional baggage.  If this bothers you in some way, perhaps that's why you cling to Alistair so hard?  You can't deal with your emotional baggage?

[melkathi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AngstDissonance

If you were really in the shoes of a human noble, or city elf, you would be acting very differently than you think you would, and see things differenlty.

Thank you that was a great read.

I loved point 2. It fits this discussion perfectly, don't you think?
"Whining is best done in groups. A great way to relate is to find something people mutually don't like and complain."

[Flickergurl15]

I personally like Alistair. I mean he does sometimes suck in combat but like people are saying if you tank him up he's fine. And as for his 'whining', he seemed to have a rough childhood so it's understandable. However, he did make me mad in one part at the camp, but other than that I don't find nothing really wrong with him.

[AtreiyaN7]

robertthebard wrote...

Few87 wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Yep, and in real life, when somebody is that much of a whiner, I can kick them to the curb. Can't do that with Alistair, he still has to breathe my air in camp.

I wish I could kick you in the curb. Your'e the worst whiner ever.

At least Al has a legitimate reason for whining and runs out of whines eventually.
Your comes down to "I hate this guy", and you keep going like an energizer bunny.

Pwnd.

Haahahah HA, I almost wet myself!

I was just going to continue laughing at this, but I just have to point out that you, Lotion, persist in responding to me.  Your drive to protect Alistair at all costs, because you like virgins, gets you to contradicting yourself about situations in game, leaving facts out, or just twisting them to fit what you mean at that time.  "It's a Grey Warden's responsibility to stop the Blight, even if they have to die to do so.  Hence doing the ritual with Morrigan is unwise, and should never be considered".  This despite the fact even if you do the ritual, the Blight is ended.

Then I'm treated to the Litany of Lotion about how Alistair did all these things to gather an army to stop the Blight, so he can be justified "sitting this one out" after the Landsmeet.  The claim that nobody knows what he's doing during the final battle, despite the epilog clearly states that he's on his way to get drunk, out of Ferelden.  Again, Alistair did nothing in my current game to gather my armies for the Blight.  Unless you count sitting at the fire playing with his dolls building an army?  In this game, the only NPC that's spoken directly to Alistair, well, two that aren't in party, are Flemeth, and Arl Eamon.  A plot that Alistair spent at the camp, BTW, just showed up when Eamon mentions putting him on the throne.  I managed to lose 20 approval from him for my killing of Connor, and calling him on using me to patch things up between him and Eamon, or attempting to.

Then there's the link in this thread, and the comment about how the PC would probably react a lot differently if they lost anything.  This despite my post that I have indeed buried some of my closest friends/surrogate family, and I didn't act the way you seem to think I should.  Perhaps that's because I reached down between my legs and discovered I had a pair, and acted accordingly, instead of spending a couple of years acting like I was 12.  My Bro's then 12 year old daughter, despite the 3 hours that she and I spent on their front porch crying when I found out about his death, handled her father's death a whole lot better than Alistair handles Duncans.  A relationship that, in so far as we know, was purely one sided.  Nothing in any interactions between Alistair and Duncan led me to believe that Duncan thought of Alistair as a son.  Maybe there's something in one of the books?  There's nothing that I have discovered in game to support it.  Hell, my first wife is dead, especially dead, has been for several years, and while I regret not finding out about it for 6 months, since we were divorced and don't live in the same city, so I was unable to attend her funeral, which did get to my daughter, that lived with her, I still didn't spend any significant amount of time dwelling on her death, and dragging my friends down with my emotional baggage.  If this bothers you in some way, perhaps that's why you cling to Alistair so hard?  You can't deal with your emotional baggage?

If you believe that Alistair is the child from The Calling (admittedly debatable), then maybe Duncan had a bigger impact/was closer to Alistair than is believed (if that was him - again, that's debatable with the timeline issue). As for death, if you want to bring that up and use it as an argument - I, myself, spent at least a year+ taking care of my mother while she was dying of cancer. I really didn't take it well, especially towards the end when it was seriously overwhelming, and I was the one with her for most of the g-------- day. I also didn't deal with it all that well afterwards, although now that it's a bit past eight months I'm pretty much over it, but it was unpleasant, painful, difficult & very, very terrible. I don't think anyone really has a right to judge someone else's grief based on some arbitrary standard of their own. Does the fact that I arguably suffered more than someone else in terms of watching a protracted, unpleasant death mean that my pain is more valid than someone else's? Do I get a free pass to be miserable longer? Who cares how long someone knew someone else. What gives anyone the right to judge a grieving person's sadness/inability to cope/reactions/whatever or when, exactly, they should be able to get it together?

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 03 janvier 2010 - 07:13 .

[robertthebard]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

If you believe that Alistair is the child from The Calling (admittedly debatable), then maybe Duncan had a bigger impact/was closer to Alistair than is believed (if that was him - again, that's debatable with the timeline issue). As for death, if you want to bring that up and use it as an argument - I, myself, spent at least a year+ taking care of my mother while she was dying of cancer. I really didn't take it well, especially towards the end when it was seriously overwhelming, and I was the one with her for most of the g-------- day. I also didn't deal with it all that well afterwards, although now that it's a bit past eight months I'm pretty much over it, but it was unpleasant, painful, difficult & very, very terrible. I don't think anyone really has a right to judge someone else's grief based on some arbitrary standard of their own. Does the fact that I arguably suffered more than someone else in terms of watching a protracted, unpleasant death mean that my pain is more valid than someone else's? Do I get a free pass to be miserable longer? Who cares how long someone knew someone else. What gives anyone the right to judge a grieving person's sadness/inability to cope/reactions/whatever or when, exactly, they should be able to get it together?

I lost my grandfather to cancer about 20 years ago, so I can relate to what you've gone through.  His dying was a relief, much better than watching him suffer day after day.  My uncle recently passed due to bone cancer, and it destroyed him before it finally killed him, at least he died in his sleep.  However, I don't start out a conversation about the weather and end up with "xxx really liked sunrise" *cue self replenishing box of Kleenex*.  In neither of these circumstances, however, was I expected to save the world.

In game, I'm expected to swallow my desire for vengence as a Human Noble to end the Blight.  I am told that seeking out Howe is secondary to my responsibilities.  The plot does, however, drop Howe in our laps, later in the game.  While not written into the story as possible, Morrigan's suggestion at Lothering is actually the best idea.  Go directly after Loghain, and then deal with the treaties.  What's the best weapon to get rid of Loghain?  Hey, you know, a person with the best claim on the throne would be able to depose him.  Now, this is what happens once you finally get the Landsmeet started, but Alistair, instead of saying; Look, I'm the last surviving known son of Maric, we should go to Redcliffe, and get Eamon to call a Landsmeet so we can depose Loghain, decides that he doesn't trust you to not look at him differently, decides that it's better to keep his little secret.  He also suggests that dealing with the treaties would be the best bet.  I have treaties for dwarves, elves and mages.  With those, and the general consensus that we should take care of them first, there is no compelling reason to go to Redcliffe first to have him spring his little secret on you.

As characters in a story, we can't site game mechanics as a defence.  We have to take the characters at face value.  However, Alistair could have just as easily stated, as Morrigan and Sten will at certain points, that we could spend our time better elsewhere.  There are plenty of oppurtunities for this to happen.  It never does.  Again, we can't say; "the game's not written that way" as a defence for his inaction.  We are characters in the story, and as such, we shouldn't know that there are story elements that prevent Alistair from leading, however, those same elements don't stop other characters from disapproving of your actions, or challenging you for leadership if they think you are wasting time.  If Alistair truly believed that Eamon should have been our first stop, he could have pulled a Sten to force our hand.  He won't.  The only times he says anything to you about what you do is if you kill either Connor or Isolde, and when you spare Loghain, if you spare Loghain.  In the dialog after killing Connor you can get a Cunning check to see that it's not about you, but about Alistair and Eamon when he gets mad about how you deal with it.  Alistair owes him more than that.  That's what he'll tell you.  So now, you're a tool to make things better for him.

It's also curious that we can't throw our family's death, in Human Noble right back in his face to ruin his pity party.  If you do, however, mention it, it's minimal compared to his loss.  "Oh, I forgot"...Of course he forgot, he's too busy wallowing in self pity about Duncan's loss, and about the fact that whether he's told you yet or not, he might have to become King to effectively shut down Loghain.  As players of the game, we know he doesn't, but as characters in the story, until we talk to Anora, we have no idea.  So fear of having to live up to his responsibilities justifies his behavior?

[ckriley]

robertthebard wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

If you believe that Alistair is the child from The Calling (admittedly debatable), then maybe Duncan had a bigger impact/was closer to Alistair than is believed (if that was him - again, that's debatable with the timeline issue). As for death, if you want to bring that up and use it as an argument - I, myself, spent at least a year+ taking care of my mother while she was dying of cancer. I really didn't take it well, especially towards the end when it was seriously overwhelming, and I was the one with her for most of the g-------- day. I also didn't deal with it all that well afterwards, although now that it's a bit past eight months I'm pretty much over it, but it was unpleasant, painful, difficult & very, very terrible. I don't think anyone really has a right to judge someone else's grief based on some arbitrary standard of their own. Does the fact that I arguably suffered more than someone else in terms of watching a protracted, unpleasant death mean that my pain is more valid than someone else's? Do I get a free pass to be miserable longer? Who cares how long someone knew someone else. What gives anyone the right to judge a grieving person's sadness/inability to cope/reactions/whatever or when, exactly, they should be able to get it together?

I lost my grandfather to cancer about 20 years ago, so I can relate to what you've gone through.  His dying was a relief, much better than watching him suffer day after day.  My uncle recently passed due to bone cancer, and it destroyed him before it finally killed him, at least he died in his sleep.  However, I don't start out a conversation about the weather and end up with "xxx really liked sunrise" *cue self replenishing box of Kleenex*.  In neither of these circumstances, however, was I expected to save the world.

In game, I'm expected to swallow my desire for vengence as a Human Noble to end the Blight.  I am told that seeking out Howe is secondary to my responsibilities.  The plot does, however, drop Howe in our laps, later in the game.  While not written into the story as possible, Morrigan's suggestion at Lothering is actually the best idea.  Go directly after Loghain, and then deal with the treaties.  What's the best weapon to get rid of Loghain?  Hey, you know, a person with the best claim on the throne would be able to depose him.  Now, this is what happens once you finally get the Landsmeet started, but Alistair, instead of saying; Look, I'm the last surviving known son of Maric, we should go to Redcliffe, and get Eamon to call a Landsmeet so we can depose Loghain, decides that he doesn't trust you to not look at him differently, decides that it's better to keep his little secret.  He also suggests that dealing with the treaties would be the best bet.  I have treaties for dwarves, elves and mages.  With those, and the general consensus that we should take care of them first, there is no compelling reason to go to Redcliffe first to have him spring his little secret on you.

As characters in a story, we can't site game mechanics as a defence.  We have to take the characters at face value.  However, Alistair could have just as easily stated, as Morrigan and Sten will at certain points, that we could spend our time better elsewhere.  There are plenty of oppurtunities for this to happen.  It never does.  Again, we can't say; "the game's not written that way" as a defence for his inaction.  We are characters in the story, and as such, we shouldn't know that there are story elements that prevent Alistair from leading, however, those same elements don't stop other characters from disapproving of your actions, or challenging you for leadership if they think you are wasting time.  If Alistair truly believed that Eamon should have been our first stop, he could have pulled a Sten to force our hand.  He won't.  The only times he says anything to you about what you do is if you kill either Connor or Isolde, and when you spare Loghain, if you spare Loghain.  In the dialog after killing Connor you can get a Cunning check to see that it's not about you, but about Alistair and Eamon when he gets mad about how you deal with it.  Alistair owes him more than that.  That's what he'll tell you.  So now, you're a tool to make things better for him.

It's also curious that we can't throw our family's death, in Human Noble right back in his face to ruin his pity party.  If you do, however, mention it, it's minimal compared to his loss.  "Oh, I forgot"...Of course he forgot, he's too busy wallowing in self pity about Duncan's loss, and about the fact that whether he's told you yet or not, he might have to become King to effectively shut down Loghain.  As players of the game, we know he doesn't, but as characters in the story, until we talk to Anora, we have no idea.  So fear of having to live up to his responsibilities justifies his behavior?

This is an excellent post.  To me, there is nothing Alistair can do that justifies his behavior because what he showed my PC at the Landsmeet when confronting Loghain.  The irony here is that were Duncan alive, he wouldn't have approved of Alistair's behavior either.  For Duncan clearly states on more than one occasion that our duties as Grey Wardens and stopping the Blight comes above all else.  He even chides Alistair in Ostagar for letting the Revered Mother talk him into harrassing that mage, because Alistair was a former templar.

Yet, Alistair,as I said before, throws a complete temper tantrum.  He puts his own personal feelings above what's best for Ferelden and by extension, the Grey Wardens.  Anyone who is to be king had to see not only the strategic value of having Loghain alive, but the political value for the noble houses of Ferelden as well, who he would be ruling over.

Again, that one event told me all I ever needed to know about Alistair.  He's just a self-centered little child.  Making matters worse, if you do choose Loghain, Alistair just goes off and I guess gets drunk or whatever.  I mean, what happened to stopping the Blight?  Are his own personal feeling so great that he can't do what's best for everyone else?  Which would be stopping the Blight?

Sorry, but anyone in this thread or the other threads devoted to Alistair defending his actions are just not being realistic.  There is NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY to excuse his actions at the Landsmeet.  All the other whining he does, though annoying and tiresome to me, can be ignored or overlooked, but his actions in front of Loghain speaks volumes.  Flemeth had it right when she told him, "Grow up, boy."  after Alistair professed shock that a king would take the throne by force.

As for having to "harden" him after his encounter with his sister to get him to understand the bigger picture of things, I shouldn't have to do that.  He's supposed to be a Grey Warden.  I would think going through the Joining and being under Duncan's tutelage should be enough to harden anyone.

[Creature 1]

ckriley wrote...
As for having to "harden" him after his encounter with his sister to get him to understand the bigger picture of things, I shouldn't have to do that.  He's supposed to be a Grey Warden.  I would think going through the Joining and being under Duncan's tutelage should be enough to harden anyone.

Nonsense.  Seeing a helpless girl subjected to demonic possession and then put to the sword after failing to fight it off, seeing a knight knifed after trying to get out of a deal that was never explained to him in the first place, and being forced into a ritual that shortens lifespan and allows archdemon broadcasts to invade his sleeping mind have nothing on being told by some woman that she's the reason his life is miserable and she'd like some money. 

I swear Alistair has Stockholm syndrome.  

[robertthebard]

I'll tell you the thing that amazes me the most; people coming into a thread about hating Alistair expecting it to be full of Alistair love. In the last thread that I know of of Alistair love, there isn't one post by me. Why? I don't love Alistair, and don't want to read about it. It's funny, but if I did post there, I'd be told; "This is the Alistair love thread, if you don't want to love Alistair, get out". For all you Alistair lovers that are disappointed by what you find here, the title should have given you all you need to know about what's in it, and maybe you should take the advice that would be so freely given in the Love threads? It's even funnier to consider that what makes these threads run on for pages and pages isn't the haters, but the lovers trying to tell the haters we have no right to hate Alistair, or posting direct attacks at posters, instead of ideas.

[Sabriana]

See, it's all in the way we RP our characters. My Human Noble was angry at Duncan for blackmailing her dying father into the conscription of his daughter. She didn't want to become a GW, she wanted to avenge her father, mother, nephew, sister-in-law, friends, and lover. That's a heck of a lot of people right there that met a terrible end at Howe's hands. Not to mention all the other inhabitants of the castle, be it servants, squires, tutors, whatnot. All doomed, or already dead.

But Duncan will have none of that. Give me your daughter, or I'll not help you. Period.

At Ostagar my noble again brings up the need to avenge the death of her whole house. She's shot down unceremoniously by Duncan, who says: "The duty to end the Blight supersedes everything, even vengance."

Now we have a really po'd noble. But she is given no choice, and she states that throughout. It makes little difference, she'll be a GW whether she likes it or not.

Also at Ostagar

Jory "No, I don't want" - Jory is dead

At the Landsmeet

Alistair "I'll leave the GW, turn my back on the Blight, abandon Ferelden at its darkest hour, betray Duncan, all the people of Ferelden, and go off in the time of the greatest threat ever." Alistair becomes a drunk or becomes King. But he does get to live, unlike poor Jory who gets dead for almost the same crime.

That's what I can't get past. The betrayal, the treason, the abandonment of his country. Others might see it differently, and that's fine as well. Whatever floats your boat. I just happen to think that Alistair should have put in an appearance at the end. Somewhere. Elves (or werewolves), dwarves, templars, mages, humans, Eamon, Irving, Teagan, many more, all show up to battle that which would wipe out the entire nation. But not the one who's needed the most. Not Alistair, one of very few GWs who are all that stand between total annihilation and recovery.

That's my view of it. I can't change that. I tried to see him in a different light, tried to play-through by being supportive and what-not, but I can't. I know it's metagaming, my PC shouldn't know what's ahead, but personally, I can't play with Alistair anymore. He stays at camp - always. As soon as I get Leliana or Sten they'll replace him.

I could maybe get past the constant harping on Duncan (even though my noble has far more to harp about), I could maybe get past his misplaced values and thoughts about the GWs. He reminds me of Jory in some ways, and of Cailan. Glory, honor, all that jazz, not the down and dirty GW motto of "Anything goes. The blight has to be stopped. Nothing else matters. Ever."

I could perhaps get past the constant need for hand-holding, and being really really nice, and not give honest answers so we can protect his fragile ego. It would be hard, but I could RP that, perhaps not as the noble, but as a human mage. No elf I would play would put up with Alistair though.

I know I would play it in such a way that Alistair would never become King, but be a GW forever. But I can't get past the 'walking away' part. I can't forgive treason and betrayal. His action lowers the odds for Ferelden's continued well being considerably. He knows that only a GW can bring down the archdemon, he says so himself in his conversations. Still, he walks away, because of one person's decision. He should be stronger. He should be able to put it aside, at least for now. Deal with it later, just as my noble is forced to do. He's not a child, he's an adult with huge responsibilities. He knows all of that, but he can't control his personal feelings and emotions. That is very weak. Leave the group - fine, I understand. But do not leave the whole country.

[melkathi]

Sabriana ,



you are absolutely right.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Creature 1 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Wynne offers to knit Sten a cloak because he looks cold. I think I might take my PC's mending to her, too. Good idea, Alistair.

Will you ask her politely to sew it up or play helpless incompetent to manipulate her into doing it?  Which route you take will determine my response. 

Wynne isn't a fool... she knew exactly what he was doing. She did it because she wanted to not beause she was manipulated. It was good humored teasing amongst close friends. If he were talking to you, he never would have asked that way.

Geesh, I'm glad I don't have to live with a lot of you people. Haven't you ever heard laughter is the best medicine?

[Whisa]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Wynne offers to knit Sten a cloak because he looks cold. I think I might take my PC's mending to her, too. Good idea, Alistair.

Will you ask her politely to sew it up or play helpless incompetent to manipulate her into doing it?  Which route you take will determine my response. 

Wynne isn't a fool... she knew exactly what he was doing. She did it because she wanted to not beause she was manipulated. It was good humored teasing amongst close friends. If he were talking to you, he never would have asked that way.

Geesh, I'm glad I don't have to live with a lot of you people. Haven't you ever heard laughter is the best medicine?

Or to stop him from whining about being in a shirt with a hole in it[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

[Xandurpein]

I have stated before and I'll state it again. The saddest irony of Alistair is that a large part of why Alistair looses all reason concerning Loghain's pardon is his love for Duncan as a father figure, at the same time Duncan would be the first person to condemn him for his actions. Duncan clearly tells my PC to forget revenge on Howe for the forseeable future to coerce me into joining the Grey Wardens, because that is the really important thing. He would have done the same to Alistair.



The more I think on it, the harder I have to reconcile with it. It makes me wonder if Alistair ever even knew who Duncan was. Why is there no option for the player to tell Alistair "Listen Alistair, you know what Duncan would have wanted you to do!"

[Sarai Noelle]

I usually always have Wynne, Allistar, and Morrigan in my party. Allistar is pretty bad *** along with the others when it comes to fighting. I have to admitt I can't stand Zevran. He makes me feel dirty lol. But perhaps I should be in a "I hate Zevran" thread...

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sabriana wrote...

See, it's all in the way we RP our characters. My Human Noble was angry at Duncan for blackmailing her dying father into the conscription of his daughter. She didn't want to become a GW, she wanted to avenge her father, mother, nephew, sister-in-law, friends, and lover. That's a heck of a lot of people right there that met a terrible end at Howe's hands. Not to mention all the other inhabitants of the castle, be it servants, squires, tutors, whatnot. All doomed, or already dead.
But Duncan will have none of that. Give me your daughter, or I'll not help you. Period.
At Ostagar my noble again brings up the need to avenge the death of her whole house. She's shot down unceremoniously by Duncan, who says: "The duty to end the Blight supersedes everything, even vengance."
Now we have a really po'd noble. But she is given no choice, and she states that throughout. It makes little difference, she'll be a GW whether she likes it or not.
Also at Ostagar
Jory "No, I don't want" - Jory is dead
At the Landsmeet
Alistair "I'll leave the GW, turn my back on the Blight, abandon Ferelden at its darkest hour, betray Duncan, all the people of Ferelden, and go off in the time of the greatest threat ever." Alistair becomes a drunk or becomes King. But he does get to live, unlike poor Jory who gets dead for almost the same crime.
That's what I can't get past. The betrayal, the treason, the abandonment of his country. Others might see it differently, and that's fine as well. Whatever floats your boat. I just happen to think that Alistair should have put in an appearance at the end. Somewhere. Elves (or werewolves), dwarves, templars, mages, humans, Eamon, Irving, Teagan, many more, all show up to battle that which would wipe out the entire nation. But not the one who's needed the most. Not Alistair, one of very few GWs who are all that stand between total annihilation and recovery.
That's my view of it. I can't change that. I tried to see him in a different light, tried to play-through by being supportive and what-not, but I can't. I know it's metagaming, my PC shouldn't know what's ahead, but personally, I can't play with Alistair anymore. He stays at camp - always. As soon as I get Leliana or Sten they'll replace him.
I could maybe get past the constant harping on Duncan (even though my noble has far more to harp about), I could maybe get past his misplaced values and thoughts about the GWs. He reminds me of Jory in some ways, and of Cailan. Glory, honor, all that jazz, not the down and dirty GW motto of "Anything goes. The blight has to be stopped. Nothing else matters. Ever."
I could perhaps get past the constant need for hand-holding, and being really really nice, and not give honest answers so we can protect his fragile ego. It would be hard, but I could RP that, perhaps not as the noble, but as a human mage. No elf I would play would put up with Alistair though.
I know I would play it in such a way that Alistair would never become King, but be a GW forever. But I can't get past the 'walking away' part. I can't forgive treason and betrayal. His action lowers the odds for Ferelden's continued well being considerably. He knows that only a GW can bring down the archdemon, he says so himself in his conversations. Still, he walks away, because of one person's decision. He should be stronger. He should be able to put it aside, at least for now. Deal with it later, just as my noble is forced to do. He's not a child, he's an adult with huge responsibilities. He knows all of that, but he can't control his personal feelings and emotions. That is very weak. Leave the group - fine, I understand. But do not leave the whole country.

I find myself usually on the defending end of Alistair but mostly because I find it funny that people get so upset over all this.

I don't disagree that he was dead wrong for not finding another way to fight the blight but I don't see that as a decision the character would truly make if it didn't fit the purposes of choices/consequences for which Bioware is known. If he's made king (heck even if he isn't) all he talks about is duty but if you take Loghain, that part of him mysteriously disappears? Doesn't fly with me.

Also, it's a game and I enjoy having him around because he makes me laugh and I'm playing the game for fun not to get pissed off. And when I play, I don't want to make all my decisions based on how I psychically know how things will end. I want to play with a new character and make choices based on how I see that character making choices.

If he really grates on your nerves and you don't want him around, camp him. But if you're (not just you but anyone) going to come here and show your hatred of a fictional character and get all pissed off (not all Al haters do this), I'm going to needle you because I find it fun. I add this because of roberthebard's comments.

[robertthebard]

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

I find myself usually on the defending end of Alistair but mostly because I find it funny that people get so upset over all this.

I don't disagree that he was dead wrong for not finding another way to fight the blight but I don't see that as a decision the character would truly make if it didn't fit the purposes of choices/consequences for which Bioware is known. If he's made king (heck even if he isn't) all he talks about is duty but if you take Loghain, that part of him mysteriously disappears? Doesn't fly with me.

Also, it's a game and I enjoy having him around because he makes me laugh and I'm playing the game for fun not to get pissed off. And when I play, I don't want to make all my decisions based on how I psychically know how things will end. I want to play with a new character and make choices based on how I see that character making choices.

If he really grates on your nerves and you don't want him around, camp him. But if you're (not just you but anyone) going to come here and show your hatred of a fictional character and get all pissed off (not all Al haters do this), I'm going to needle you because I find it fun. I add this because of roberthebard's comments.

I actually don't mind trading barbs, and for me it adds to the fun.  I have been accused of being a Loghain supporter, although that's primarily because between the two, I'd rather have Loghain, at least he stabs me to my front.   I have also stated, probably again in this very topic, that while I don't like Alistair as a person, he's a well written character.  I can, and have, fully supported why I do not like Alistair as a person.

I also like to make choices based on how my character reacts to situations.  However, as time goes on in game, and Alistair's actions/inactions and reactions become intimately familiar, I find it harder to role play having him in the party, so he does spend a lot of time camped.  I think I have like 10 approval with him now, and that's after I gave him his mother's amulet.  I was quite surprised at how you could twist that dialog as far as approval goes too.

[Kenshen]

On my first playthrough I had lots of trouble with Alistair as a tank and ended up using Shale the rest of the way. Second playthrough I rolled a tank and at first I could not understand why I did so much better than Alistair until a few things dawned on me. First when you are playing as a tank you are in control of that character most of the time and that does make a difference. Another thing it took me awhile to figure out was the tactics for a NPC tank. Getting him to do what I wanted and when took a lot of trail and error. The last difference I thought of was all the attribute points you get by doing the Circle Tower. Then add in all the books and other stuff you probably buy for yourself and before you know it your PC tank isn't even close to what Alistair has to work with.



I find the second talent in the Reaver spec (scarry face one I forget its name) helps a bunch at grabbing aggro and holding it. Now my troubles are keeping him alive cause he has aggro on everything. Force field works well, maybe too well but I don't like having to bring 2 healers or be constantly making healing pots. Anyways now the only difference I see between Alistair and Shale is Shale has more hitpoints but probably is taking more damage not sure about that.

[Whisa]

I prefer shale over Alastair because I can use aoe talents and not worry about grabbing aggro from one dual sweep.



Threaten + Stoneheart + two aoe stuns means my rogue can stabby stab all she wants, get extra damage from stuns, and not have to worry about being squished. The only other aoe threat similiar I've seen with a tank is DW warrior tank, which means no one is going to pull from my dual sweep/ taunt

[AtreiyaN7]

ckriley wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

If you believe that Alistair is the child from The Calling (admittedly debatable), then maybe Duncan had a bigger impact/was closer to Alistair than is believed (if that was him - again, that's debatable with the timeline issue). As for death, if you want to bring that up and use it as an argument - I, myself, spent at least a year+ taking care of my mother while she was dying of cancer. I really didn't take it well, especially towards the end when it was seriously overwhelming, and I was the one with her for most of the g-------- day. I also didn't deal with it all that well afterwards, although now that it's a bit past eight months I'm pretty much over it, but it was unpleasant, painful, difficult & very, very terrible. I don't think anyone really has a right to judge someone else's grief based on some arbitrary standard of their own. Does the fact that I arguably suffered more than someone else in terms of watching a protracted, unpleasant death mean that my pain is more valid than someone else's? Do I get a free pass to be miserable longer? Who cares how long someone knew someone else. What gives anyone the right to judge a grieving person's sadness/inability to cope/reactions/whatever or when, exactly, they should be able to get it together?

I lost my grandfather to cancer about 20 years ago, so I can relate to what you've gone through.  His dying was a relief, much better than watching him suffer day after day.  My uncle recently passed due to bone cancer, and it destroyed him before it finally killed him, at least he died in his sleep.  However, I don't start out a conversation about the weather and end up with "xxx really liked sunrise" *cue self replenishing box of Kleenex*.  In neither of these circumstances, however, was I expected to save the world.

In game, I'm expected to swallow my desire for vengence as a Human Noble to end the Blight.  I am told that seeking out Howe is secondary to my responsibilities.  The plot does, however, drop Howe in our laps, later in the game.  While not written into the story as possible, Morrigan's suggestion at Lothering is actually the best idea.  Go directly after Loghain, and then deal with the treaties.  What's the best weapon to get rid of Loghain?  Hey, you know, a person with the best claim on the throne would be able to depose him.  Now, this is what happens once you finally get the Landsmeet started, but Alistair, instead of saying; Look, I'm the last surviving known son of Maric, we should go to Redcliffe, and get Eamon to call a Landsmeet so we can depose Loghain, decides that he doesn't trust you to not look at him differently, decides that it's better to keep his little secret.  He also suggests that dealing with the treaties would be the best bet.  I have treaties for dwarves, elves and mages.  With those, and the general consensus that we should take care of them first, there is no compelling reason to go to Redcliffe first to have him spring his little secret on you.

As characters in a story, we can't site game mechanics as a defence.  We have to take the characters at face value.  However, Alistair could have just as easily stated, as Morrigan and Sten will at certain points, that we could spend our time better elsewhere.  There are plenty of oppurtunities for this to happen.  It never does.  Again, we can't say; "the game's not written that way" as a defence for his inaction.  We are characters in the story, and as such, we shouldn't know that there are story elements that prevent Alistair from leading, however, those same elements don't stop other characters from disapproving of your actions, or challenging you for leadership if they think you are wasting time.  If Alistair truly believed that Eamon should have been our first stop, he could have pulled a Sten to force our hand.  He won't.  The only times he says anything to you about what you do is if you kill either Connor or Isolde, and when you spare Loghain, if you spare Loghain.  In the dialog after killing Connor you can get a Cunning check to see that it's not about you, but about Alistair and Eamon when he gets mad about how you deal with it.  Alistair owes him more than that.  That's what he'll tell you.  So now, you're a tool to make things better for him.

It's also curious that we can't throw our family's death, in Human Noble right back in his face to ruin his pity party.  If you do, however, mention it, it's minimal compared to his loss.  "Oh, I forgot"...Of course he forgot, he's too busy wallowing in self pity about Duncan's loss, and about the fact that whether he's told you yet or not, he might have to become King to effectively shut down Loghain.  As players of the game, we know he doesn't, but as characters in the story, until we talk to Anora, we have no idea.  So fear of having to live up to his responsibilities justifies his behavior?

This is an excellent post.  To me, there is nothing Alistair can do that justifies his behavior because what he showed my PC at the Landsmeet when confronting Loghain.  The irony here is that were Duncan alive, he wouldn't have approved of Alistair's behavior either.  For Duncan clearly states on more than one occasion that our duties as Grey Wardens and stopping the Blight comes above all else.  He even chides Alistair in Ostagar for letting the Revered Mother talk him into harrassing that mage, because Alistair was a former templar.

Yet, Alistair,as I said before, throws a complete temper tantrum.  He puts his own personal feelings above what's best for Ferelden and by extension, the Grey Wardens.  Anyone who is to be king had to see not only the strategic value of having Loghain alive, but the political value for the noble houses of Ferelden as well, who he would be ruling over.

Again, that one event told me all I ever needed to know about Alistair.  He's just a self-centered little child.  Making matters worse, if you do choose Loghain, Alistair just goes off and I guess gets drunk or whatever.  I mean, what happened to stopping the Blight?  Are his own personal feeling so great that he can't do what's best for everyone else?  Which would be stopping the Blight?

Sorry, but anyone in this thread or the other threads devoted to Alistair defending his actions are just not being realistic.  There is NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY to excuse his actions at the Landsmeet.  All the other whining he does, though annoying and tiresome to me, can be ignored or overlooked, but his actions in front of Loghain speaks volumes.  Flemeth had it right when she told him, "Grow up, boy."  after Alistair professed shock that a king would take the throne by force.

As for having to "harden" him after his encounter with his sister to get him to understand the bigger picture of things, I shouldn't have to do that.  He's supposed to be a Grey Warden.  I would think going through the Joining and being under Duncan's tutelage should be enough to harden anyone.

Could Alistair have mentioned Redcliffe sooner? Could he have done x, y, z? Yes, he could have. We could all debate what he should have done based on what the most logical choice was. Personally, I would say that hitting Redcliffe initially doesn't seem particularly vital until later on, but that's just my personal viewpoint after evaluating the treaties. Purely from a gameplay standpoint, attempting to defened Redcliffe at a low level seems unwise to me at any rate, given that you'd only have Alistair, Morrigan, Dog, Sten & Leliana to choose from (if you actually went straight there from Lothering) with low-level abilities to defend Redcliffe.

Eamon himself says that directly attacking Loghain with your armies is a bad idea. I believe he mentions something about it making your character look like a usurper trying to steal the throne and that it would inflame the civil war, not end it  (when you discuss your options with Eamon after healing him). Don't forget that the commonfolk apparently DO love Anora (God knows why). It would be a political mistake to try fighting a war with Loghain. Also, why call a Landsmeet before you actually have any armies to support you? I'm not sure Alistair actually even considered the Landsmeet issue, but eh, who knows.

A lot of the issues seem to stem from Alistair's response at the Landsmeet not being proper Warden behavior/not being in character. If you've read The Calling, then you know that Genevieve is not exactly behaving like a "proper Warden." Let's examine the actions of someone who is actually supposed to be a mature, seasoned Warden (and a Warden Commander at that). She is driven by her emotions on her quest to find her brother (which is made  pretty clear, even though ostensibly she's doing this to prevent a Blight). Her judgment becomes quite suspect, and she puts the lives of other Wardens at risk because of what she wants and because of what she feels. Her only "evidence" is her visions.

What about the Warden who decides to stay in the Fade with the illusion of his dead lover...what's his name, Nicholas? The other Wardens don't try to stop him after he makes his decision to stay in the Fade. They allow him to put his love before his duty. Logically, you could argue that he should've sucked it up and left the Fade. He didn't, and again, the other Wardens allowed him to throw his life away with their blessing. Sidenote: Duncan in the book is about as immature as Alistair for the most part (constantly harping on the cold weather  ). I wonder if people would like him THAT much if all they knew of him was his depiction in the book.He obviously gained a lot of maturity after some years had passed. I think people should cut Alistair some slack on what they consider "whining."

Back on track: of course there's a duty that Wardens should do - they should (hypothetically) put stopping a Blight above any other concerns, but based on Genevieve & Nicholas, or even Bregan (might as well throw him into the mix), even seasoned Wardens have their moments of weakness and make bad judgment calls, etc. Those three undeniably let their emotions overrule any logical decision-making, with a potentially more serious/disastrous effects (on Genevieve's & Bregan's parts) than any desire of Alistair's to lop off Loghain's head (or leave the Wardens if Loghain joins the order). To give Genevieve and Bregan some credit, they do pull back from the abyss ultimately. They made bad choices, so did Alistair at Landsmeet. It doesn't mean that any of them weren't trying to carry out their duties (in the end) - they just let themselves be swayed by their emotional responses.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 janvier 2010 - 03:15 .

[ckriley]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

ckriley wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

If you believe that Alistair is the child from The Calling (admittedly debatable), then maybe Duncan had a bigger impact/was closer to Alistair than is believed (if that was him - again, that's debatable with the timeline issue). As for death, if you want to bring that up and use it as an argument - I, myself, spent at least a year+ taking care of my mother while she was dying of cancer. I really didn't take it well, especially towards the end when it was seriously overwhelming, and I was the one with her for most of the g-------- day. I also didn't deal with it all that well afterwards, although now that it's a bit past eight months I'm pretty much over it, but it was unpleasant, painful, difficult & very, very terrible. I don't think anyone really has a right to judge someone else's grief based on some arbitrary standard of their own. Does the fact that I arguably suffered more than someone else in terms of watching a protracted, unpleasant death mean that my pain is more valid than someone else's? Do I get a free pass to be miserable longer? Who cares how long someone knew someone else. What gives anyone the right to judge a grieving person's sadness/inability to cope/reactions/whatever or when, exactly, they should be able to get it together?

I lost my grandfather to cancer about 20 years ago, so I can relate to what you've gone through.  His dying was a relief, much better than watching him suffer day after day.  My uncle recently passed due to bone cancer, and it destroyed him before it finally killed him, at least he died in his sleep.  However, I don't start out a conversation about the weather and end up with "xxx really liked sunrise" *cue self replenishing box of Kleenex*.  In neither of these circumstances, however, was I expected to save the world.

In game, I'm expected to swallow my desire for vengence as a Human Noble to end the Blight.  I am told that seeking out Howe is secondary to my responsibilities.  The plot does, however, drop Howe in our laps, later in the game.  While not written into the story as possible, Morrigan's suggestion at Lothering is actually the best idea.  Go directly after Loghain, and then deal with the treaties.  What's the best weapon to get rid of Loghain?  Hey, you know, a person with the best claim on the throne would be able to depose him.  Now, this is what happens once you finally get the Landsmeet started, but Alistair, instead of saying; Look, I'm the last surviving known son of Maric, we should go to Redcliffe, and get Eamon to call a Landsmeet so we can depose Loghain, decides that he doesn't trust you to not look at him differently, decides that it's better to keep his little secret.  He also suggests that dealing with the treaties would be the best bet.  I have treaties for dwarves, elves and mages.  With those, and the general consensus that we should take care of them first, there is no compelling reason to go to Redcliffe first to have him spring his little secret on you.

As characters in a story, we can't site game mechanics as a defence.  We have to take the characters at face value.  However, Alistair could have just as easily stated, as Morrigan and Sten will at certain points, that we could spend our time better elsewhere.  There are plenty of oppurtunities for this to happen.  It never does.  Again, we can't say; "the game's not written that way" as a defence for his inaction.  We are characters in the story, and as such, we shouldn't know that there are story elements that prevent Alistair from leading, however, those same elements don't stop other characters from disapproving of your actions, or challenging you for leadership if they think you are wasting time.  If Alistair truly believed that Eamon should have been our first stop, he could have pulled a Sten to force our hand.  He won't.  The only times he says anything to you about what you do is if you kill either Connor or Isolde, and when you spare Loghain, if you spare Loghain.  In the dialog after killing Connor you can get a Cunning check to see that it's not about you, but about Alistair and Eamon when he gets mad about how you deal with it.  Alistair owes him more than that.  That's what he'll tell you.  So now, you're a tool to make things better for him.

It's also curious that we can't throw our family's death, in Human Noble right back in his face to ruin his pity party.  If you do, however, mention it, it's minimal compared to his loss.  "Oh, I forgot"...Of course he forgot, he's too busy wallowing in self pity about Duncan's loss, and about the fact that whether he's told you yet or not, he might have to become King to effectively shut down Loghain.  As players of the game, we know he doesn't, but as characters in the story, until we talk to Anora, we have no idea.  So fear of having to live up to his responsibilities justifies his behavior?

This is an excellent post.  To me, there is nothing Alistair can do that justifies his behavior because what he showed my PC at the Landsmeet when confronting Loghain.  The irony here is that were Duncan alive, he wouldn't have approved of Alistair's behavior either.  For Duncan clearly states on more than one occasion that our duties as Grey Wardens and stopping the Blight comes above all else.  He even chides Alistair in Ostagar for letting the Revered Mother talk him into harrassing that mage, because Alistair was a former templar.

Yet, Alistair,as I said before, throws a complete temper tantrum.  He puts his own personal feelings above what's best for Ferelden and by extension, the Grey Wardens.  Anyone who is to be king had to see not only the strategic value of having Loghain alive, but the political value for the noble houses of Ferelden as well, who he would be ruling over.

Again, that one event told me all I ever needed to know about Alistair.  He's just a self-centered little child.  Making matters worse, if you do choose Loghain, Alistair just goes off and I guess gets drunk or whatever.  I mean, what happened to stopping the Blight?  Are his own personal feeling so great that he can't do what's best for everyone else?  Which would be stopping the Blight?

Sorry, but anyone in this thread or the other threads devoted to Alistair defending his actions are just not being realistic.  There is NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY to excuse his actions at the Landsmeet.  All the other whining he does, though annoying and tiresome to me, can be ignored or overlooked, but his actions in front of Loghain speaks volumes.  Flemeth had it right when she told him, "Grow up, boy."  after Alistair professed shock that a king would take the throne by force.

As for having to "harden" him after his encounter with his sister to get him to understand the bigger picture of things, I shouldn't have to do that.  He's supposed to be a Grey Warden.  I would think going through the Joining and being under Duncan's tutelage should be enough to harden anyone.

Could Alistair have mentioned Redcliffe sooner? Could he have done x, y, z? Yes, he could have. We could all debate what he should have done based on what the most logical choice was. Personally, I would say that hitting Redcliffe initially doesn't seem particularly vital until later on, but that's just my personal viewpoint after evaluating the treaties. Purely from a gameplay standpoint, attempting to defened Redcliffe at a low level seems unwise to me at any rate, given that you'd only have Alistair, Morrigan, Dog, Sten & Leliana to choose from (if you actually went straight there from Lothering) with low-level abilities to defend Redcliffe.

Eamon himself says that directly attacking Loghain with your armies is a bad idea. I believe he mentions something about it making your character look like a usurper trying to steal the throne and that it would inflame the civil war, not end it  (when you discuss your options with Eamon after healing him). Don't forget that the commonfolk apparently DO love Anora (God knows why). It would be a political mistake to try fighting a war with Loghain. Also, why call a Landsmeet before you actually have any armies to support you? I'm not sure Alistair actually even considered the Landsmeet issue, but eh, who knows.

A lot of the issues seem to stem from Alistair's response at the Landsmeet not being proper Warden behavior/not being in character. If you've read The Calling, then you know that Genevieve is not exactly behaving like a "proper Warden." Let's examine the actions of someone who is actually supposed to be a mature, seasoned Warden (and a Warden Commander at that). She is driven by her emotions on her quest to find her brother (which is made  pretty clear, even though ostensibly she's doing this to prevent a Blight). Her judgment becomes quite suspect, and she puts the lives of other Wardens at risk because of what she wants and because of what she feels. Her only "evidence" is her visions.

What about the Warden who decides to stay in the Fade with the illusion of his dead lover...what's his name, Nicholas? The other Wardens don't try to stop him after he makes his decision to stay in the Fade. They allow him to put his love before his duty. Logically, you could argue that he should've sucked it up and left the Fade. He didn't, and again, the other Wardens allowed him to throw his life away with their blessing. Sidenote: Duncan in the book is about as immature as Alistair for the most part (constantly harping on the cold weather  ). I wonder if people would like him THAT much if all they knew of him was his depiction in the book.He obviously gained a lot of maturity after some years had passed. I think people should cut Alistair some slack on what they consider "whining."

Back on track: of course there's a duty that Wardens should do - they should (hypothetically) put stopping a Blight above any other concerns, but based on Genevieve & Nicholas, or even Bregan (might as well throw him into the mix), even seasoned Wardens have their moments of weakness and make bad judgment calls, etc. Those three undeniably let their emotions overrule any logical decision-making, with a potentially more serious/disastrous effects (on Genevieve's & Bregan's parts) than any desire of Alistair's to lop off Loghain's head (or leave the Wardens if Loghain joins the order). To give Genevieve and Bregan some credit, they do pull back from the abyss ultimately. They made bad choices, so did Alistair at Landsmeet. It doesn't mean that any of them weren't trying to carry out their duties (in the end) - they just let themselves be swayed by their emotional responses.

Well, I haven't read the book but I can tell you a couple things.  First, it doesn't matter what those other Wardens did, I'm focused on Alistair, though I understand why you mentioned them.  Just because other, allegedly more seasoned Wardens made equally bad decisions does not excuse Alistair in the slightest.  Second, were the other Wardens' decisions directly related to stopping the Blight?  I mean, Alistair's decision to leave at a very critical point in the game could have, story wise, doomed Ferelden.  At the time you confront Loghain, there are only three GWs left in Ferelden, you, Alistair, and Riordan.  Were things quite that dire for the other GWs you mentioned that also made bad judgement calls?

To put that in perspective, it would be like if in Empire Strikes Back, Luke decides not to be a Jedi after he finds out Vader is his father because Obi-Wan lied to him.  Knowing full well that by abandoning the Rebellion, with only two known Jedi left in the galaxy, he has doomed the resistance to darkness.  This would mean that it would have been all on Leia's shoulders to go through the training, gather the army, hold what few allies they have together, and defeat Vader and the Emperor and save the galaxy single-handedly.

And that's exactly what happens in DAO.  A human noble PC in DAO has much in common with Leia.  They both have their families killed, (in Leia's case, not just her family, but her entire planet), have noble backgrounds, and both must put their personal feelings aside for the greater good and their duty to the Republic.

Meanwhile, Alistair just leaves if he doesn't agree with you.  It's just not excusable.  At all.

 

[kaimanaMM]

What I took from The Calling is that, in the end, we are all human (or elf or dwarf, whatev, you know what I mean).

Let's take Genevieve again as an example.  She put Duncan through the Joining not because she wanted another Grey Warden, but because she wanted him to suffer.  She wanted him to die painfully.  She wanted revenge on him for killing her fiance and was right snarked off that he survived the Joining.  She hated being a Grey Warden because she knew Bregan had become a Warden for her, to get her into the Wardens.

Bregan, her bother and Warden Commander before her never wanted to be a Grey Warden in the first place.  He only went through with it because of his sister, because it was what she wanted and the Wardens would not take her if he wasn't included in the package deal.  He always saw being a Warden as punishment.

Not exactly proper Warden behavior.

Nicolas didn't want to leave the Fade.  He wanted to stay with Julien because he loved him.  There was nothing but darkdpawn, destruction and a slow painful eventual death waiting for him in the real world, without the person he loved.  So he walked away from the Wardens- when they needed him.

And they let him.

Not exactly proper Warden behavior all the way around, but most definitely human.

Grey Wardens aren't heros.  They're jerks and saints, just like us (thanks Kaidan).  We all have our own reasons for doing what we do be it love, happiness, jealousy or revenge.  At that momment at the Landsmeet, Alistair wants revenge.  He wants the man who has taken something important from him to pay for what he's done. I'm not talking about Duncan or Eamon.  He found acceptance with the Wardens.  They didn't see him as Maric's bastard or Eamon's charity case.  No one forced him to be something he didn't want to be or do something he didn't want to do. 

Maybe he shouldn't have been swayed by his feelings. Maybe he should have tried to see the bigger picture.  Maybe he should have fallen in line and accepted your decisions without question.  I think most anyone would be hard pressed to say they've never had a momment in their lives where they felt so strongly about something that it blocked out all logical thought.  Whether you consider that momment one of weakness or strength is all up to you. The Landsmeet is that momment for Alistair.  You can see it as weak on his part.  Or, you can see him as finally standing up for something he believes in. 

[robertthebard]

The Landsmeet is such a small part of why I hate Alistair as to not even be worth mentioning. Yeah, he shows his true colors there, but I see them a lot sooner than that, unless I'm trying to play the bootlicker, and never try to hurt his feelings by laying what I really think on him in dialog, if the option to do so exists. It gives me great satisfaction at Flemeth's hut to tell him to get over himself. You see, I see this as his biggest fault. It's all about him. He lies to you, both by omission, and when you ask him directly, about who he is. He whines about Duncan, until you find out who he is, and then he whines about that too. If you roleplay that his lying hurt your feelings, or whatever it is that "I don't know who you are anymore" is supposed to represent, he gets all huffy, and you have to apologize to him for him lying to you. Then he acts the total ass about that, and if you call him on that too, he gets all huffy, breaks up with the female PC, and drops approval accordingly, I think I got -15, for me being upset with him for lying to me.



For those that won't role play this out because they don't want to hurt his feeling, I don't know what to tell you. This is your hero, when you pull his hole card about all his whining and lying. If you kill Connor, he'll confront you in camp and say that you knew full well there was something else you could have done, even if he wasn't with you to know what's going on. Despite the fact that maybe you haven't been to the Circle yet. I loved that convo, I lost 20 points of approval for calling him on attempting to blame his problem with Eamon on me. "I owed Arl Eamon more than that". To which you can get a Cunning line that says "So it's really about you and him, and has nothing to do with me"? Roughly paraphrased, but he admits that that is correct. So now you're a tool to fix his life too?