555 réponses à ce sujet

[Cybercat999]

klarabella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
This, there is never a time when Alistair is a good King on his own.  He is always somebody's puppet, and it should be no surprise that this is so, since he plays puppet all the way through the game.

You're so annoying.

Truth hurts?

[PaladinZero]

Far be it for anyone to show grief in this game...



However, I do understand. Alistair needs a lot of prodding throughout the game to get him to accept his destiny and he fights it at every turn. This is similar to his templar training, though. He was forced there against his will, but the templar abilities he has makes him a well-equipped fighter to deal with the Blight. His kingship is no different, and I thought he proved himself a good king. Believe it or not, not everyone has the ability to give a morale boosting speech before a battle. Also keep in mind that there wouldn't be a bunch of inspiring movie/tv/video game lines to choose from, so Alistair did well: short and inspiring. True...they didn't have the added benefit of the background music, but he is a good leader...once you force him into it.



Concerning Alistair leaving...this really has to come down to the choice the PC made at the Landsmeet. As for a choice between Loghain and Alistair...why are we even considering Loghain? This has bad idea all over it. Besides, for all us human nobles, we got to have our revenge. That is why we have the luxury of even considering the possibility. I beat Loghain handily, so there was no "Maybe we should save him to help." There was plenty of help at that point and Loghain deserves death. Had I allowed it, I would have immediately sent Loghain to the Deep Roads. Perhaps if you had talked to Alistair, you would realize that perhaps he has good reasons for acting the way he does.



Loghain killed Duncan...and many of the Grey Wardens that Alistair was also friends with. Alistair doesn't want to lead or show initiative because of his lineage. He hates it. He hates being treated differently because of who his parents are and he doesn't want to be held back because he might get hurt. If you spared Loghain, gave him membership into the Grey Wardens (which Alistair really cares a lot about) then what are you saying about Alistair's life? Alistair saw the Wardens as the greatest and purest force of good in a land divided by power and titles. Once you destroyed that image, where was Alistair supposed to go? He can't stop being a Grey Warden, but now he sees you turning his home into a den of traitors.



As for dying at the hands of the Archdemon...it is the perfect ending for Alistair, but for the reason he gave. The slaying of an Archdemon is the pinnacle of service for the Wardens. What Alistair wants to be more than anything is a great Grey Warden. If you change what it means to be a Grey Warden (at least to Alistair's vision for the Grey Wardens) then what is the point? Loghain was more than capable of saving the day, as was evidenced by the fact that you allowed him to join the ranks, so why should he care?

[robertthebard]

PaladinZero wrote...

Far be it for anyone to show grief in this game...

However, I do understand. Alistair needs a lot of prodding throughout the game to get him to accept his destiny and he fights it at every turn. This is similar to his templar training, though. He was forced there against his will, but the templar abilities he has makes him a well-equipped fighter to deal with the Blight. His kingship is no different, and I thought he proved himself a good king. Believe it or not, not everyone has the ability to give a morale boosting speech before a battle. Also keep in mind that there wouldn't be a bunch of inspiring movie/tv/video game lines to choose from, so Alistair did well: short and inspiring. True...they didn't have the added benefit of the background music, but he is a good leader...once you force him into it.

Concerning Alistair leaving...this really has to come down to the choice the PC made at the Landsmeet. As for a choice between Loghain and Alistair...why are we even considering Loghain? This has bad idea all over it. Besides, for all us human nobles, we got to have our revenge. That is why we have the luxury of even considering the possibility. I beat Loghain handily, so there was no "Maybe we should save him to help." There was plenty of help at that point and Loghain deserves death. Had I allowed it, I would have immediately sent Loghain to the Deep Roads. Perhaps if you had talked to Alistair, you would realize that perhaps he has good reasons for acting the way he does.

Loghain killed Duncan...and many of the Grey Wardens that Alistair was also friends with. Alistair doesn't want to lead or show initiative because of his lineage. He hates it. He hates being treated differently because of who his parents are and he doesn't want to be held back because he might get hurt. If you spared Loghain, gave him membership into the Grey Wardens (which Alistair really cares a lot about) then what are you saying about Alistair's life? Alistair saw the Wardens as the greatest and purest force of good in a land divided by power and titles. Once you destroyed that image, where was Alistair supposed to go? He can't stop being a Grey Warden, but now he sees you turning his home into a den of traitors.

As for dying at the hands of the Archdemon...it is the perfect ending for Alistair, but for the reason he gave. The slaying of an Archdemon is the pinnacle of service for the Wardens. What Alistair wants to be more than anything is a great Grey Warden. If you change what it means to be a Grey Warden (at least to Alistair's vision for the Grey Wardens) then what is the point? Loghain was more than capable of saving the day, as was evidenced by the fact that you allowed him to join the ranks, so why should he care?

Funny on the bolded part, because his line to my PC was it was the best King he could be.  Even funnier because he wasn't slated to be King.

[nos_astra]

robertthebard wrote...
Funny on the bolded part, because his line to my PC was it was the best King he could be.  Even funnier because he wasn't slated to be King.

And will you allow this to be a bug or is it only more proof that he is a liar and an idiot? ^^

[phoenixgoddess27]

I happen to love Alistair.

If you build him just right, he's great in combat. He wears the Full legion armor, excluding the helmet (I put the Grey Warden's Helmet on him) and gave him a longsword I can't seem to remember with runes (Two darkspawn +10 and +4 runes and a Grandmaster paralysis rune) and the Eamon shield and he's terrific. He always gets attacked but never seems to get severely damaged unless we're fighting dragons like Flemeth or the High Dragon.

I think his sarcastic humor and sweetness are the best part of him. I don't wanna sex someone who's an acehole

[robertthebard]

klarabella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Funny on the bolded part, because his line to my PC was it was the best King he could be.  Even funnier because he wasn't slated to be King.

And will you allow this to be a bug or is it only more proof that he is a liar and an idiot? ^^

It happens on everyone's plays, there are threads about how he won't allow female PC's to die.  Best King, but not best Grey Warden.  All Alistair wants to be is self serving.  The fact that he's a liar and an idiot are secondary.

[Xandurpein]

Reading this thread makes me see a scene played in my head, with Alistair and Loghain beating each other senseless on top of Fort Drakon over who should be allowed to kill the Archdemon and die.

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

Reading this thread makes me see a scene played in my head, with Alistair and Loghain beating each other senseless on top of Fort Drakon over who should be allowed to kill the Archdemon and die.

Make a mod, I would pay to play that.  I'd probably play it 20 times to see if it comes out differently too.  Add pom poms to the rest of the party so they can cheerlead the event.

[nos_astra]

robertthebard wrote...

klarabella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Funny on the bolded part, because his line to my PC was it was the best King he could be.  Even funnier because he wasn't slated to be King.

And will you allow this to be a bug or is it only more proof that he is a liar and an idiot? ^^

It happens on everyone's plays, there are threads about how he won't allow female PC's to die.  Best King, but not best Grey Warden.  All Alistair wants to be is self serving.  The fact that he's a liar and an idiot are secondary.

I meant the "I'm king, it's my duty" part. That is buggy, but not your point.

[Creature 1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I respond to everoyne who speaks bull**** in a conversations I'm in. You're not special - altough you probably want to be - so let me make this clear - I DON'T SWING THAT WAY! So you can stop your advances. You're NOT getting anywher near my personal space. Talk to Zev if you want some sausage.

Are you for real??

Again, Alistair did nothing in my current game to gather my armies for the Blight.  Unless you count sitting at the fire playing with his dolls building an army? 

In which case you cleary don't appreaciate or use him, so why should he bother with following you at all? Apparently in your game no one wants him or uses him or considers him usefull. Why should he even stay in the country? Why should he even give a f***?

If ignored he should do one of two things:  either challenge the PC for leadership of the group or take off and start his own campaign to destroy the Archdemon.  

Many people have had Alistair in their group all the way up until the end, spared Loghain, and had Alistair flip out and head for parts unknown.  He does not go fight the Archdemon independently, he takes his toys and goes home (or to the local bar). 

Regardless of how sympathetic you feel towards his sensitive feelings, that's a dereliction of duty and a betrayal of the man he considers his mentor. 

And completely unnecessary, since any of my characters would have Loghain quietly removed (fell down the stairs on an icy day, how tragic!) once he outlived his usefulness. 

[ReubenLiew]

He also took my grey warden armor.

It cost me 7 dollars to get that!

So he's a thief on top of everything else.

[Creature 1]

phoenixgoddess27 wrote...
I think his sarcastic humor and sweetness are the best part of him. I don't wanna sex someone who's an acehole

You clearly haven't played through all of the possible game endings. 

Come to think of it, Alistair reminds me of a high school boyfriend I had--romantic, idealistic (he loved Paladins), and ultimately completely lacking in integrity.  Probably one reason Alistair irks me so much. 

[phoenixgoddess27]

Creature 1 wrote...

phoenixgoddess27 wrote...
I think his sarcastic humor and sweetness are the best part of him. I don't wanna sex someone who's an acehole

You clearly haven't played through all of the possible game endings. 

Come to think of it, Alistair reminds me of a high school boyfriend I had--romantic, idealistic (he loved Paladins), and ultimately completely lacking in integrity.  Probably one reason Alistair irks me so much. 

Lol no I haven't, haven't even beaten the game yet, I'm at Landsmeet. I'm just going on what I've seen so far.

[Sabriana]

PaladinZero wrote...



Concerning Alistair leaving...this really has to come down to the choice the PC made at the Landsmeet. As for a choice between Loghain and Alistair...why are we even considering Loghain? This has bad idea all over it. Besides, for all us human nobles, we got to have our revenge. That is why we have the luxury of even considering the possibility. I beat Loghain handily, so there was no "Maybe we should save him to help." There was plenty of help at that point and Loghain deserves death. Had I allowed it, I would have immediately sent Loghain to the Deep Roads. Perhaps if you had talked to Alistair, you would realize that perhaps he has good reasons for acting the way he does.

For the bolded part: But you see, that's what my human noble wanted, and she was unceremoneously shut down by Duncan. He says "Stopping the Blight supersedes everything, even vengeance."

That, and the fact that Jory has do die for wanting out, and he didn't even know a fraction of the GW 'Trade-secrets' that Alistair knows.

What bothers me the most about this outcome is that Alistair leaves at a time when the "this is it, do or die" battle will commence. All of Ferelden will perish, people, animals, plantlife, if this battle is lost. This is no
contained battle, no skirmish, it will designate the future of a whole country.

What would Duncan do, I wonder, had he been forced to witness this?

This is how I feel about it. I don't try to ram my opinion down anybody's throat, and have yet to comment in any of the pro-Alistair threads. But I do feel strongly about it. Nevertheless, I can understand both sides to a point, but I was so shocked that I can't even play with the Alistair character right now.

I consider this great character design and writing to make people feel so strongly one way or another.

Edited because the formatting bug and I had a disagreement.

Modifié par Sabriana, 04 janvier 2010 - 03:14 .

[phoenixgoddess27]

Creature 1 wrote...

And completely unnecessary, since any of my characters would have Loghain quietly removed (fell down the stairs on an icy day, how tragic!) once he outlived his usefulness. 

Hilarious

[master-fluff]

Xandurpein wrote...

which is best for Ferelden: PC-Loghain+Riordan (no Alistair) or PC+Loghain-Riordan+Alistair.

But neither of those options are remotely tenable.  Loghain would be executed/locked-up for life for what he's done.

Imagine if they did have him along for the fight.  What are the chances he would stub his toe, sit it out then slay any remaining Grey Wardens/witnesses.  It would work out well for Loghain and it's what he's been working towards all along.  Bit risky don't you think ?  Warriors have no time for traitors for good reason.

The only options are PC+Alistair+Riordan or Loghain+Riordan, the latter assuming Riodarn is a sandwich short of a picnic.
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Modifié par master-fluff, 04 janvier 2010 - 03:17 .

[ash the rpgamer]

i for one like alistair, i think hes a great character.



hes quite a funny guy, always comes up with a witty comment and yes he could be seen as abit annoying but for lack of another way to put it;his heart is in the right place.

he wants to do his best to avenge duncans death and do his grey warden duty by stopping the blight and defeating the archdemon.



he does like the self pity route but still if you'd gone through what he had, you'd probably be abit like that.



ive always had ailstair in my party and hes a fantastic tank, definately 1 of the best you can have, peronally i prefer shale as the main tank but both are excellent at tanking.



i can't really see how people hate him, he seems likeable enough to me and im a straight male lol

[Sabriana]

master-fluff wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

which is best for Ferelden: PC-Loghain+Riordan (no Alistair) or PC+Loghain-Riordan+Alistair.

But neither of those options are remotely tenable.  Loghain would be executed/locked-up for life for what he's done.

<snip>

Well, to be fair, many of our European monarchs/queens/etc have done pretty awful things to gain or retain power. Empress Maude vs. King Stephen comes to mind, Henry the VIII, and Kaiser Wilhelm are some of the others.

No, I'm not excusing Loghain's dirty deeds, but I'm with Flemeth on this one. "You think he's the first king to gain the throne that way? Grow up boy."

[Naamah_bb]

I just cannot believe how most people would rather behead Alistair for leaving you if you spare Loghain because of his Grey Warden treason but consider spearing a man who committed high treason, regicide and god knows what else. I mean to each his own, but I just don't get it.

[Xandurpein]

master-fluff wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

which is best for Ferelden: PC-Loghain+Riordan (no Alistair) or PC+Loghain-Riordan+Alistair.

But neither of those options are remotely tenable.  Loghain would be executed/locked-up for life for what he's done.

Imagine if they did have him along for the fight.  What are the chances he would stub his toe, sit it out then slay any remaining Grey Wardens/witnesses.  It would work out well for Loghain and it's what he's been working towards all along.  Bit risky don't you think ?  Warriors have no time for traitors for good reason.

The only options are PC+Alistair+Riordan or Loghain+Riordan, the latter assuming Riodarn is a sandwich short of a picnic.
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I think you are caught up in your own feelings here. If you choose to let Loghain live he will follow you dutifully and will offer to sacrifice himself and slay the Archdemon to attone for his past crimes. You are of course free to hold on to the opinion that he is not worthy of your trust, I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise, but I think that it's a bit strong for you to claim that it's impossible to trust him, when the game proves it to be wrong. You are effectivly saying that the writers have misunderstood Loghain and wrote him wrong, if you let him live.

[Xandurpein]

Naamah_bb wrote...

I just cannot believe how most people would rather behead Alistair for leaving you if you spare Loghain because of his Grey Warden treason but consider spearing a man who committed high treason, regicide and god knows what else. I mean to each his own, but I just don't get it.

The short anwer is that some of us thinks that beating the Archdemon and stopping the Blight supercedes justice. And I for one never wanted Alistair beheaded nor do i let Anora do it. I just wish he had gotten his act together so we could be four Grey Wardens instead of three. Even if my characters decide to kill Loghain to have Alistair stay, I loose respect for him for forcing me to choose, when the Grey Wardens would have been stronger if we had both. I console myself with thought that it's the game logic that demands it so we can't cheat out of Morrigans choice, but still...

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...



I love the line coming into Lothering; "Is it so hard to understand my being upset? How would you feel if somebody close to you died?" to which the Human Noble can't say; "Gee, I don't know, it's not like your hero daddy didn't blackmail my dying father into making me a GW in order to save me from Howe, and then drag me off knowing my mother is going to die right beside him. It's not like I didn't walk into my brother's room, and see his wife and son dead on the floor". For all the detractors, Alistair and Cailin weren't close.

First of all, He was talking about Duncan, not Cailin and second you take the entire quote out of context as he's addressing it to Morrigan who's giving him a had time, not for whining, but for being quiet during the journey from the Kocari Wilds to Loathering.

[Mehow_pwn]

To be honest I see alot of reason why peoeple hate Alistair and why he is beloved..but you have to admin his humor and voice acting is really good:P



Also to be honest Shale vs Alistair I'd say shale at first.. then in later game.. (around lvl 15-19) Alistair with full spec and best gears in the game.. its simply retarded to call him bad tank then I have to say your a ****y noob

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

which is best for Ferelden: PC-Loghain+Riordan (no Alistair) or PC+Loghain-Riordan+Alistair.

But neither of those options are remotely tenable.  Loghain would be executed/locked-up for life for what he's done.

Imagine if they did have him along for the fight.  What are the chances he would stub his toe, sit it out then slay any remaining Grey Wardens/witnesses.  It would work out well for Loghain and it's what he's been working towards all along.  Bit risky don't you think ?  Warriors have no time for traitors for good reason.

The only options are PC+Alistair+Riordan or Loghain+Riordan, the latter assuming Riodarn is a sandwich short of a picnic.
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I think you are caught up in your own feelings here. If you choose to let Loghain live he will follow you dutifully and will offer to sacrifice himself and slay the Archdemon to attone for his past crimes. You are of course free to hold on to the opinion that he is not worthy of your trust, I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise, but I think that it's a bit strong for you to claim that it's impossible to trust him, when the game proves it to be wrong. You are effectivly saying that the writers have misunderstood Loghain and wrote him wrong, if you let him live.

I can think of a lot of reasons the PC would choose to spare Loghain.  And yes, if you talk to Loghain, you can gain not only an understanding, but his respect.  He will sleep with Morrigan even though you leave the choice up to him (or because you do).  Or he will take the death blow, not for glory, but for attonement.  Alistair, even when it's about love, it is also about becoming a hero and having songs written for him (he admits this if you call him a coward, which my PC was always inclined to do).

[Wrathra]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think you are caught up in your own feelings here. If you choose to let Loghain live he will follow you dutifully and will offer to sacrifice himself and slay the Archdemon to attone for his past crimes. You are of course free to hold on to the opinion that he is not worthy of your trust, I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise, but I think that it's a bit strong for you to claim that it's impossible to trust him, when the game proves it to be wrong. You are effectivly saying that the writers have misunderstood Loghain and wrote him wrong, if you let him live.

This is hindsight. Your character has no way of knowing this as the Landsmeet is taking place, unless you are metagaming.

At the Landsmeet, Loghain has given me absolutely no reason to trust him except saying  "I changed my mind! You win."  There is no reason for me to believe he will not stab me in the back at the first opportunity he has available, and I'm not going to take him at his word.  And yes, I do know he turns out to be a loyal companion. *I* know, my human noble does not.