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[Xandurpein]

Wrathra wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think you are caught up in your own feelings here. If you choose to let Loghain live he will follow you dutifully and will offer to sacrifice himself and slay the Archdemon to attone for his past crimes. You are of course free to hold on to the opinion that he is not worthy of your trust, I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise, but I think that it's a bit strong for you to claim that it's impossible to trust him, when the game proves it to be wrong. You are effectivly saying that the writers have misunderstood Loghain and wrote him wrong, if you let him live.

This is hindsight. Your character has no way of knowing this as the Landsmeet is taking place, unless you are metagaming.

At the Landsmeet, Loghain has given me absolutely no reason to trust him except saying  "I changed my mind! You win."  There is no reason for me to believe he will not stab me in the back at the first opportunity he has available, and I'm not going to take him at his word.  And yes, I do know he turns out to be a loyal companion. *I* know, my human noble does not.

I simply meant that it's just way too strong to claim that it's "not tenable" to consider pardoning Loghain. It's up to everyone to decide and claiming that, in effect, someone else's choice is illogical, just because they think differently is wrong. Please also remember that who Loghain really is and what his motives are, is something a lot of people have different opinions about.

[Sabriana]

It's not the PC who suggests that Loghain joins up, it's Riordan.

The way I play it is that the PC and Alistair stumble through this whole 'Grey Warden' bit more or less in the fashion of the blind leading the blind. So my PC assumes that Riordan knows what he's doing and why he suggest such an outlandish thing.

My PC asked herself "What would Duncan do?" She came up with the answer that Duncan would do anything to beat the archdemon. If you have to make a deal with a subdued devil to beat a demon who is about to destroy your whole country, then you make that deal, and deal with the repercussions later. Like when everyone's safe.

Yes, I am aware that Alistair is a flawed human, as pointed out repeatedly, but if my PC, who suffered incredible losses, possibly because of Loghain, can put that aside, then so should he. Especially because he worships the ground Duncan walks on.

The Grey Wardens are not a charity. Talk to Ser Gilmore, and he'll tell you that the Grey Wardens set a whole village afire to stop the darkspawn from advancing. They knew that civilians perished, but they went by the credo that the needs of the many supersede the needs of the few.

[Creature 1]

This also depends on your backstory.



Cousland: You have a personal grudge, and probably a vested interest in eliminating a potential claimant to the throne, so want him beheaded at the very least.

City Elf: You would like to skin him alive and hang him from the battlements to be eaten by crows.

Mage: You are irritated that he encouraged the blood mage uprising and then hung them out to dry.



Other: ?? Depends upon how you feel personally about getting drafted into the Wardens.

[Sabriana]

Well, the way I see it, nevermind the backstory. It still comes down to "The Grey Wardens do anything it takes to take down the archdemon."

At least that's the way I see it. Duncan himself slaps down my noble when she wants revenge, and he tells Alistair that 'Chantry business is not our business'. When questioned, Gilmore relates the tale of the burning village.

So my PC assumes that "anything" truly means "anything", no matter what background and what personal grudges the individual PC has.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Wrathra wrote...

This is hindsight. Your character has no way of knowing this as the Landsmeet is taking place, unless you are metagaming.

At the Landsmeet, Loghain has given me absolutely no reason to trust him except saying  "I changed my mind! You win."  There is no reason for me to believe he will not stab me in the back at the first opportunity he has available, and I'm not going to take him at his word.  And yes, I do know he turns out to be a loyal companion. *I* know, my human noble does not.

No reason other than metagaming?
Clearly you aren't a good roleplayer then if you think there isn't anyway to roleplay a reason for sparing him.
But whatever floats your boat, I can think of countless reasons why someone would spare him from a roleplayers PoV

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 04 janvier 2010 - 05:45 .

[Ariella]

Sabriana wrote...

Yes, I am aware that Alistair is a flawed human, as pointed out repeatedly, but if my PC, who suffered incredible losses, possibly because of Loghain, can put that aside, then so should he. Especially because he worships the ground Duncan walks on.

Yeah, you lost your family, whom you've had most of your life. Alistair's never had that, or when he's about to he's had the carpet pulled out from under him, and this time that included the death of his father figure, the near death of another father figure, the death of almost every Grey Warden in Fereldan, the outlawing of said organization when it's Loghain who is the criminal and the fact that Loghain is fiddling while Fereldan burns.

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

[Wrathra]

Sabriana wrote...

It's not the PC who suggests that Loghain joins up, it's Riordan.
The way I play it is that the PC and Alistair stumble through this whole 'Grey Warden' bit more or less in the fashion of the blind leading the blind. So my PC assumes that Riordan knows what he's doing and why he suggest such an outlandish thing.
My PC asked herself "What would Duncan do?" She came up with the answer that Duncan would do anything to beat the archdemon. If you have to make a deal with a subdued devil to beat a demon who is about to destroy your whole country, then you make that deal, and deal with the repercussions later. Like when everyone's safe.
Yes, I am aware that Alistair is a flawed human, as pointed out repeatedly, but if my PC, who suffered incredible losses, possibly because of Loghain, can put that aside, then so should he. Especially because he worships the ground Duncan walks on.
The Grey Wardens are not a charity. Talk to Ser Gilmore, and he'll tell you that the Grey Wardens set a whole village afire to stop the darkspawn from advancing. They knew that civilians perished, but they went by the credo that the needs of the many supersede the needs of the few.

Fair enough

My PC asked herself, "can you trust these people?"  Riordan - a man she doesn't know who she met what, a couple days before in a dungeon and Loghain, the murderous, traitorous jerk who plunged the country into civil war for reasons that are at best paranoid.

Removing Alistair from the equation entirely, however; she saw Loghain as a threat, GW or no. He was too influential and untrustworthy to allow to travel with her. Imprisonment would have been ideal, but it was not an option.  He had to be removed. Loghain being a GW did not mean he would not slit her throat at the first opportunity presented to him.  Being a GW does not make him a completely different human being, and she was not willing to risk her life on the possibility that he MAY be trustworthy. He wasn't under a geas preventing him from betraying her.  Just weighing these things - it was not worth the risk.

It all depends on your perception and relationship with the characters. It's what makes it so interesting.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...



I love the line coming into Lothering; "Is it so hard to understand my being upset? How would you feel if somebody close to you died?" to which the Human Noble can't say; "Gee, I don't know, it's not like your hero daddy didn't blackmail my dying father into making me a GW in order to save me from Howe, and then drag me off knowing my mother is going to die right beside him. It's not like I didn't walk into my brother's room, and see his wife and son dead on the floor". For all the detractors, Alistair and Cailin weren't close.

First of all, He was talking about Duncan, not Cailin and second you take the entire quote out of context as he's addressing it to Morrigan who's giving him a had time, not for whining, but for being quiet during the journey from the Kocari Wilds to Loathering.

I don't think I see what point you are trying to make, unless it's his grief is justifiable, but the PC has to stuff their feelings to accomodate his?  The point to that post was that you can't slam him with that.  Instead of pulling an Alistair, even in the Wilds during the gather the blood and treaties part, you are expected to put your feelings on hold to accomplish your mission.  Yet, this isn't applicable to Alistair?  Is it because you feel Alistair was betrayed?  The PC was also betrayed, and unlike Alistair, who doesn't know how Duncan died, particulars, any way, the PC did see their nephew and sister in law, and their mother's friend, and their lover for the night, no big attachment there, so far as we know, and then has Duncan blackmail the bleeding out father to save the PC.  So, where is Alistair's circumstance worse?  That it happened to him?  Self serving Alistair lost Duncan, and yes, that's also the point.  He could give a rat's ass about Cailin, Duncan died, his world is over.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Yes, I am aware that Alistair is a flawed human, as pointed out repeatedly, but if my PC, who suffered incredible losses, possibly because of Loghain, can put that aside, then so should he. Especially because he worships the ground Duncan walks on.

Yeah, you lost your family, whom you've had most of your life. Alistair's never had that, or when he's about to he's had the carpet pulled out from under him, and this time that included the death of his father figure, the near death of another father figure, the death of almost every Grey Warden in Fereldan, the outlawing of said organization when it's Loghain who is the criminal and the fact that Loghain is fiddling while Fereldan burns.

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Yes, his goals are to kill Loghain.  Nothing else matters, thanks for clearing that up.

[Wrathra]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

This is hindsight. Your character has no way of knowing this as the Landsmeet is taking place, unless you are metagaming.

At the Landsmeet, Loghain has given me absolutely no reason to trust him except saying  "I changed my mind! You win."  There is no reason for me to believe he will not stab me in the back at the first opportunity he has available, and I'm not going to take him at his word.  And yes, I do know he turns out to be a loyal companion. *I* know, my human noble does not.

No reason other than metagaming?
Clearly you aren't a good roleplayer then if you think there isn't anyway to roleplay a reason for sparing him.
But whatever floats your boat, I can think of countless reasons why someone would spare him from a roleplayers PoV

Excuse me?  I'm a bad rper because my noble is not psychic?  She should know that

If you choose to let Loghain live he will follow you dutifully and will
offer to sacrifice himself and slay the Archdemon to attone for his
past crimes.

That is metagaming. This is knowledge my PC Does. Not. Have.

I have explained my reasoning several times in several threads.  I've even explained it in this one.   There are many valid reasons for sparing Loghain.  There are not good enough for my noble.  If they are good enough for you, all the more power to you.

Please read the quote I was responding to so you can see why I said what I said. It's perfectly clear.

Edit: formatting. bleh.

Modifié par Wrathra, 04 janvier 2010 - 06:12 .

[Sabriana]

Wrathra wrote...

Fair enough

My PC asked herself, "can you trust these people?"  Riordan - a man she doesn't know who she met what, a couple days before in a dungeon and Loghain, the murderous, traitorous jerk who plunged the country into civil war for reasons that are at best paranoid.

Removing Alistair from the equation entirely, however; she saw Loghain as a threat, GW or no. He was too influential and untrustworthy to allow to travel with her. Imprisonment would have been ideal, but it was not an option.  He had to be removed. Loghain being a GW did not mean he would not slit her throat at the first opportunity presented to him.  Being a GW does not make him a completely different human being, and she was not willing to risk her life on the possibility that he MAY be trustworthy. He wasn't under a geas preventing him from betraying her.  Just weighing these things - it was not worth the risk.

It all depends on your perception and relationship with the characters. It's what makes it so interesting.

As you say, fair enough. I do understand your reasoning perfectly, and it makes a lot of sense. Where the whole thing differs is that your interpretation is not my interpretation, and that is how it should be.

And you are ever so right. It certainly does make it very interesting.

Ariella wrote:
Yeah, you lost your family, whom you've had most of your life.
Alistair's never had that, or when he's about to he's had the carpet
pulled out from under him, and this time that included the death of his
father figure, the near death of another father figure, the death of
almost every Grey Warden in Fereldan, the outlawing of said
organization when it's Loghain who is the criminal and the fact that
Loghain is fiddling while Fereldan burns.

I'd say Alistair lost
as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right
to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as
you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp
putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and
motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

That is how you personally see it. My view differs in that Alistair lost something that existed entirely in his head alone. In no way, shape, or form can I see anywhere that Duncan view Alistair in a different light than all the other initiates. He did the same for Daveth, namely saving his neck from the gallows. Daveth ran away from home as soon as he "could outrun his pa", and lived on the streets ever since. Daveth admires Duncan and is very grateful to him, but never elevates him to hero status.

My noble lost something that was really there. Her parents told her they loved her and she told them she loved them. A close sister/brother relationship exists, as well as a close 'auntie'/nephew (Gawd, the 'dire bunny' line cracked me up). She lost most of her family, she lost friends, a lover, and countless others, not to mention the invasion and semi-destruction of her home. I am sorry, but there is no way that I, personally, can get anywhere close to the "he lost more than the PC" line of thought.

All in all, to me, Alistair is a grown man, not a child. Throughout the entire time at Ostagar Duncan keeps hammering the point of "there is no turning back" and "the Grey Wardens do everything/anything it takes". In the end, Alistair betrays Duncan right along with the entire country, people, animals and plants.

[AtreiyaN7]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...



I love the line coming into Lothering; "Is it so hard to understand my being upset? How would you feel if somebody close to you died?" to which the Human Noble can't say; "Gee, I don't know, it's not like your hero daddy didn't blackmail my dying father into making me a GW in order to save me from Howe, and then drag me off knowing my mother is going to die right beside him. It's not like I didn't walk into my brother's room, and see his wife and son dead on the floor". For all the detractors, Alistair and Cailin weren't close.

First of all, He was talking about Duncan, not Cailin and second you take the entire quote out of context as he's addressing it to Morrigan who's giving him a had time, not for whining, but for being quiet during the journey from the Kocari Wilds to Loathering.

I don't think I see what point you are trying to make, unless it's his grief is justifiable, but the PC has to stuff their feelings to accomodate his?  The point to that post was that you can't slam him with that.  Instead of pulling an Alistair, even in the Wilds during the gather the blood and treaties part, you are expected to put your feelings on hold to accomplish your mission.  Yet, this isn't applicable to Alistair?  Is it because you feel Alistair was betrayed?  The PC was also betrayed, and unlike Alistair, who doesn't know how Duncan died, particulars, any way, the PC did see their nephew and sister in law, and their mother's friend, and their lover for the night, no big attachment there, so far as we know, and then has Duncan blackmail the bleeding out father to save the PC.  So, where is Alistair's circumstance worse?  That it happened to him?  Self serving Alistair lost Duncan, and yes, that's also the point.  He could give a rat's ass about Cailin, Duncan died, his world is over.

On Duncan at Castle Cousland: I tend to think of what he was saying to Teyrn Bryce as more along the lines of asking the teyrn's permission and doing the courtesy of informing him of what Duncan must do because of the Blight. I rather doubt that he was going to leave the PC and the teyrna there to die. It should also be pointed out that Duncan saved the teyrn's life by getting him to the pantry, despite the fact that letting him die where he dropped would have been easier. Presumably, Duncan did it because it was the right thing, not because it was the most expedient thing. The expedient thing would have been  letting Bryce die because he was clearly mortally wounded, thus avoiding the issue of asking his permission (or blackmailing him in some people's views) at all. . Before Teyrn Bryce dies, he does talk about family honor/doing your duty, and wanting you to live, etc. etc. doesn't he?

Yes, I do think it's fair though to say that the human noble PC does have it worse than Alistair, having been there to experience the deaths of his/her family firsthand. The PC also has opportunities to rage in the dialogue with Cailan when you get to Ostagar, inasmuch as you can and perhaps not in an entirely satisfying manner. You can nominally be sullen/stubborn/angry with Duncan at certain points, but ultimately because you are the player, you kind of do have to be the strong one, and it's on you to be a leader. If you want to RP it, maybe your character's desire for revenge is burning so brightly that it allows you to  push through the despair and take charge when your fellow Warden can't, because you want Arl Howe dead THAT badly (and Loghain too). As for Cailan, Alistair knew of him, but he didn't actually know him except for their meeting at Ostagar as far as I know. I would think he has seriously mixed feelings about his half-brother due to his own childhood and how he grew up, etc. - maybe he's even a bit jealous of the life Cailan had.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 janvier 2010 - 06:30 .

[Sabriana]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

On Duncan at Castle Cousland: I tend to think of what he was saying to Teyrn Bryce as more along the lines of asking the teyrn's permission and doing the courtesy of informing him of what Duncan must do because of the Blight. I rather doubt that he was going to leave the PC and the teyrna there to die. It should also be pointed out that Duncan saved the teyrn's life by getting him to the pantry, despite the fact that letting him die where he dropped would have been easier. Presumably, Duncan did it because it was the right thing, not because it was the most expedient thing. The expedient thing would have been  letting Bryce die because he was clearly mortally wounded, thus avoiding the issue of asking his permission (or blackmailing him in some people's views) at all. . Before Teyrn Bryce dies, he does talk about family honor/doing your duty, and wanting you to live, etc. etc. doesn't he?

Yes, I do think it's fair though to say that the human noble PC does have it worse than Alistair, having been there to experience the deaths of his/her family firsthand. The PC also has opportunities to rage in the dialogue with Cailan when you get to Ostagar, inasmuch as you can and perhaps not in an entirely satisfying manner. You can nominally be sullen/stubborn/angry with Duncan at certain points, but ultimately because you are the player, you kind of do have to be the strong one, and it's on you to be a leader. If you want to RP it, maybe your character's desire for revenge is burning so brightly that it allows you to  push through the despair and take charge when your fellow Warden can't, because you want Arl Howe dead THAT badly (and Loghain too). As for Cailan, Alistair knew of him, but he didn't actually know him except for their meeting at Ostagar as far as I know. I would think he has seriously mixed feelings about his half-brother due to his own childhood and how he grew up, etc. - maybe he's even a bit jealous of the life Cailan had.

Good points, although the way I view it Duncan does say. "... I will, but I have to ask a favor in return." The way I view the whole GW thing is that it is not inconceivable that Duncan would just go and grab Gilmore under some pretext and split. (Remember, I'm rather sold on the "anything goes" credo.) Especially when he says "I came to seek a recruit and the situation in the south demands that I leave with one." 

Lol on the "not entirely satisfying manner". Are you ever so right. Although my noble PC did love telling Duncan that she thought Cailan was an idiot.
I also think that Cailan and Alistair not only looked alot alike, but acted alike as well. Both love the "honor, glory, greatness" thing, and neither had any idea what was really going on. Cailan didn't believe Duncan (true Blight, archdemon, wait for Eamon), and Alistair never really grasped the GW thing, and that they were not some knights in shining armor, but were perfectly willing to get down and dirty for the cause.

[robertthebard]

I'll save your offspring if you give me permission to possibly kill them by making them a Grey Warden is not asking permission. Making it conditional, as he does, is making it an either this or that case. So the Blight demands a recruit, only if he can pass a persuade check on Bryce?

[Xandurpein]

The whole relationship between Alistair and Duncan is one of those things that I have a hard times adding up in my mind. I'm not flat out saying that they didn't quite think it through to to the end when they wrote it, but if they did I haven't figured it out yet.



Alistair obviously sees Duncan as a father figure. At the same time his view of the Grey Wardens are completely different from Duncan's. How can Alistair idolize Duncan the way he does and at the same time adhere to an idea of the Grey Wardens that is opposite of Duncan's. Where Duncan sees a group with a mission with such importance that it supercedes all morality, Alistair sees the Grey Wardens and Duncan as the bearers of morality.



Didn't Alistair even listen to Duncan? How did Alistair rationalize the death of Ser Jory? I just can't make it add up.

[Creature 1]

Xandurpein wrote...
Didn't Alistair even listen to Duncan? How did Alistair rationalize the death of Ser Jory? I just can't make it add up.

Doublethink.  Alistair is a master. 

[Sabriana]

Xandurpein wrote...

The whole relationship between Alistair and Duncan is one of those things that I have a hard times adding up in my mind. I'm not flat out saying that they didn't quite think it through to to the end when they wrote it, but if they did I haven't figured it out yet.

Alistair obviously sees Duncan as a father figure. At the same time his view of the Grey Wardens are completely different from Duncan's. How can Alistair idolize Duncan the way he does and at the same time adhere to an idea of the Grey Wardens that is opposite of Duncan's. Where Duncan sees a group with a mission with such importance that it supercedes all morality, Alistair sees the Grey Wardens and Duncan as the bearers of morality.

Didn't Alistair even listen to Duncan? How did Alistair rationalize the death of Ser Jory? I just can't make it add up.

Especially when you consider that Duncan most likely would do the same to Alistair as he did to Jory.

But there you have it. You deserve your confusion. What are you thinking coming here and being all logical all over the place?

Pfft..., the nerve of some people.

[AtreiyaN7]

Sabriana wrote...


Good points, although the way I view it Duncan does say. "... I will, but I have to ask a favor in return." The way I view the whole GW thing is that it is not inconceivable that Duncan would just go and grab Gilmore under some pretext and split. (Remember, I'm rather sold on the "anything goes" credo.) Especially when he says "I came to seek a recruit and the situation in the south demands that I leave with one." 

Lol on the "not entirely satisfying manner". Are you ever so right. Although my noble PC did love telling Duncan that she thought Cailan was an idiot.
I also think that Cailan and Alistair not only looked alot alike, but acted alike as well. Both love the "honor, glory, greatness" thing, and neither had any idea what was really going on. Cailan didn't believe Duncan (true Blight, archdemon, wait for Eamon), and Alistair never really grasped the GW thing, and that they were not some knights in shining armor, but were perfectly willing to get down and dirty for the cause.

In an effort to keep these things from getting massively huge, I'll chunk my portion of that. LOL - yes, I suppose it's all in how each persons interprets Duncan's line. I interpreted his lines in the way that I did for two reasons:

1) Duncan says that will see the PC and teryna safely out of the castle first before anything else. He doesn't make it a flat-out conditional thing and say "only if you agree to this will I save them."
2) As a Grey Warden, Duncan has the Right of Conscription. I think people have neglected to consider this when saying that he was 'blackmailing' Teyrn Bryce. He did not need to ask Teryn Bryce at all for permission at that point or at any other point, nor did he have any need to blackmail him by virtue of having the Right of Conscription.

Therefore, when Duncan says the "...but I need to ask a favor..." line, to me Duncan is essentially acknowledging that he needs the PC to stop the Blight and that he would prefer to have the teyrn willingly give his blessing instead of forcing the issue by using the RoC.

This does remind me of something else: a number of people in the ME2 forums argued that Samara was somehow being 'submissive' or 'subservient' and 'weak-willed' because she does the equivalent of giving a formal oath (part of it is along the lines of "my will is your will"). My interpretation of her complete lines during that voice-over was that she was pledging her loyalty, not being literal about  slavishly doing everything that Shepard wants (somehow I doubt that an Asari Justicar is weak-willed).

While Duncan could certainly have grabbed Ser Gilmore ( Ser Gilmore - he was a brave man), Duncan does admit that he was actually at Castle Cousland to recruit you if you hit the right dialogue options, unless I'm grossly mistaken. From a logistics standpoint also, Gilmore was, alas, bravely guarding the main entrance - probably not the wisest course of action to try to get back there if Howe's men are breaking through or have already broken through (although Duncan certainly could have tried to go get him).

Meh, no work assignments today, I should play ME and get my main character to 60. *shudder* I just quail at the thought of doing the Keeper scanning quest yet again - that's the one quest that I really, really hated (even though I actually do have maps of the Keeper locations now).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 04 janvier 2010 - 07:24 .

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The whole relationship between Alistair and Duncan is one of those things that I have a hard times adding up in my mind. I'm not flat out saying that they didn't quite think it through to to the end when they wrote it, but if they did I haven't figured it out yet.

Alistair obviously sees Duncan as a father figure. At the same time his view of the Grey Wardens are completely different from Duncan's. How can Alistair idolize Duncan the way he does and at the same time adhere to an idea of the Grey Wardens that is opposite of Duncan's. Where Duncan sees a group with a mission with such importance that it supercedes all morality, Alistair sees the Grey Wardens and Duncan as the bearers of morality.

Didn't Alistair even listen to Duncan? How did Alistair rationalize the death of Ser Jory? I just can't make it add up.

Especially when you consider that Duncan most likely would do the same to Alistair as he did to Jory.

But there you have it. You deserve your confusion. What are you thinking coming here and being all logical all over the place?

Pfft..., the nerve of some people.

I am unmasked. I humbly bow to you.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 04 janvier 2010 - 07:23 .

[likeorasgod]

I don't realy hate him cause he does well when I use him. Though this is my 5th play through and I finaly decided I'm going to kill him off....let anora be the Queen. Wish there was a kill them both option...I can't stand either one.

[kaimanaMM]

I suppose you could RP that Duncan "blackmails" Bryce Cousland into agreeing to you being taken on as a Grey Warden. It doesn't make much sense, but I suppose you could see it that way.



All Bryce Cousland knows is mostly what everyone else knows. That the Grey Wardens are heroes, they are the only ones who can stand against the blight and defeat it. They are legendary in their protection of humanity (or elfs or dwarfs or mages, whatev). Why wouldn't Bryce Cousland's dying wish be to give his son or daughter the chance to live and be regarded as a hero? Your argument that Duncan needs to pass a persuade check on Bryce Cousland because he is "asking permission to kill you" is pretty much bunk. Bryce even tells you many times that there is a WAR in the south and he's riding into battle not an afternoon tea. He holds no illusions about what is coming.



I still don't think it was all about Duncan. Yes, Alistair regarded him very highly, possibly as a father figure. But it's the feeling of having to be no one and nothing else but Alistair which he finds with Duncan and subsequently the Wardens that is important to him. Did Duncan shield him? Possibly. If he is Maric and Fiona's child then Duncan made a promise to both of them. If Alistair is the child at the end of The Calling we can infer that Duncan did indeed feel more for him then we ever see in the game.

[robertthebard]

kaimanaMM wrote...

I suppose you could RP that Duncan "blackmails" Bryce Cousland into agreeing to you being taken on as a Grey Warden. It doesn't make much sense, but I suppose you could see it that way.

All Bryce Cousland knows is mostly what everyone else knows. That the Grey Wardens are heroes, they are the only ones who can stand against the blight and defeat it. They are legendary in their protection of humanity (or elfs or dwarfs or mages, whatev). Why wouldn't Bryce Cousland's dying wish be to give his son or daughter the chance to live and be regarded as a hero? Your argument that Duncan needs to pass a persuade check on Bryce Cousland because he is "asking permission to kill you" is pretty much bunk. Bryce even tells you many times that there is a WAR in the south and he's riding into battle not an afternoon tea. He holds no illusions about what is coming.

I still don't think it was all about Duncan. Yes, Alistair regarded him very highly, possibly as a father figure. But it's the feeling of having to be no one and nothing else but Alistair which he finds with Duncan and subsequently the Wardens that is important to him. Did Duncan shield him? Possibly. If he is Maric and Fiona's child then Duncan made a promise to both of them. If Alistair is the child at the end of The Calling we can infer that Duncan did indeed feel more for him then we ever see in the game.

It is interesting that you choose to ignore half the conversation during Cousland Day.  You know, the part where Bryce tells the PC that he doesn't want to throw all his children into the war, simply when you ask why you can't ride with the army.  It's also convenient that you ignore the part where Bryce expressly forbids you becoming a Grey Warden, unless Duncan intends to invoke the Right.  This is a tactic that I am becoming used to.  If it doesn't fit into an explanation, it should be ignored, since it might shoot holes in what one is trying to say.  This is a useful tactic for somebody that hasn't played the game, or just hit escape to get through all the dialogs w/out reading what they say.  For somebody that has explored variations on a theme, these omissions are glaringly obvious, as is the reason they are omitted.

[AtreiyaN7]

Xandurpein wrote...

The whole relationship between Alistair and Duncan is one of those things that I have a hard times adding up in my mind. I'm not flat out saying that they didn't quite think it through to to the end when they wrote it, but if they did I haven't figured it out yet.

Alistair obviously sees Duncan as a father figure. At the same time his view of the Grey Wardens are completely different from Duncan's. How can Alistair idolize Duncan the way he does and at the same time adhere to an idea of the Grey Wardens that is opposite of Duncan's. Where Duncan sees a group with a mission with such importance that it supercedes all morality, Alistair sees the Grey Wardens and Duncan as the bearers of morality.

Didn't Alistair even listen to Duncan? How did Alistair rationalize the death of Ser Jory? I just can't make it add up.

I think it's been stated before that it is not unknown for Wardens to have been injured/killed by a panicking recruit, so people like Ser Jory are unfortunate casualties when they lose it and draw their swords (regardless of their intentions). Let us not bother with the great debate on who struck/drew first, although as I have pointed out before, it is not unheard of for someone to summarily be killed/executed merely for drawing their sword (which no one will deny Ser Jory did, I believe).

In feudal Japan, if a samurai drew his sword in the presence of his lord (or someone else's), it would be off-with-his-head, or he'd be forced to commit seppuku. The most famous and often-told story is that of the 47 Ronin (which also happens to be a real story), or the Chuushingura/Daichuushingura as the story is generally referred to (suffice it to say, I've watched a lot of Japanese programming over the years  ). Brief summary: a low-ranking country bumpkin of a clan lord, Lord Asano (aka the Lord of Ako), gets tricked into drawing his sword in the presence of a jack---, Lord Kira, and is thus forced to commit seppuku. Slightly longer version of that from a website:

On March 14, unable to take the insults from Kira anymore, Lord Asano
drew his sword (itself a capital offense when done inside Edo Castle) and
struck Kira wounding him slightly. For his offense, The Shogun Tsunayoshi
ordered Lord Asano to immediately commit seppuku (ritual suicide). Kira,
on the other hand, received no punishment; in fact, he became an object
of sympathy and was allowed to continue his official duties.

As to where I'm going with this: basically, I think that Alistair can reconcile the fact that sometimes Wardens have to do harsh things - to protect themselves or other recruits and that there is, quite likely, some acceptance of military rules or what seems like draconian behavior to us. Oh, and if you talk to Riordan, he does say that Duncan has a soft spot for his recruits. Duncan might fit the archetype of a Grey Warden better than someone like Alistair, but it seems like Duncan wanted to keep Alistair alive and may have been somewhat indulgent of him (even though he does try to be stern/scolds him for being uppity with that mage), so I wouldn't necessarily say he did everything the 'Grey Warden Way' if you will.

[Cybercat999]

kaimanaMM wrote...

I suppose you could RP that Duncan "blackmails" Bryce Cousland into agreeing to you being taken on as a Grey Warden. It doesn't make much sense, but I suppose you could see it that way.

No, you cant  "suppose" anything, did you even read the dialogues in game?!?
Not only Duncan blatantly blackmails Bryce, but if your PC declines to go with him he pulls out the Right of Conscription and snatches you against your will right there.

I suppose nothing makes much sense if you dont actually read what was being said in game instead of making fantasy conclusions based on what character you like.

[Xandurpein]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

As to where I'm going with this: basically, I think that Alistair can reconcile the fact that sometimes Wardens have to do harsh things - to protect themselves or other recruits and that there is, quite likely, some acceptance of military rules or what seems like draconian behavior to us. Oh, and if you talk to Riordan, he does say that Duncan has a soft spot for his recruits. Duncan might fit the archetype of a Grey Warden better than someone like Alistair, but it seems like Duncan wanted to keep Alistair alive and may have been somewhat indulgent of him (even though he does try to be stern/scolds him for being uppity with that mage), so I wouldn't necessarily say he did everything the 'Grey Warden Way' if you will.

My point is this: Alistair obviously looks up to Duncan, but seems to think the Grey Wardens is omething very different from what Duncan do. So Alistair idolizes the man, but is unaffected by his beliefs and morals. I'm not saying this is wrong, but I do find it inconsistent.