555 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

master-fluff wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Excuse me, what?  He'll take you in the Mage origin no matter which team you play for.  Jory made his intentions perfectly clear, and perfectly contradictory to everything Jory said prior to the joining.  Please, have your facts straight, and then feel free to distort them how you please. 

In my game, Duncan shows up looking for a new recruit.  I show him to his room at The First Enchanter's request, we talk a little and he seems like a nice guy.  Then the Jowen thing happens (I sided with Irving) at the end of which Duncan is there and he's essentially OK with my role in things.  Someone suggests I join the GWs (can't remember if it was Irving, Duncan or even me but apparently I've been a good student and no one questions the suggestion).  Irving checks if I'm willing and I jump at the chance. 

To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.  Jory didn't meet all the critieria and Duncan murdered him rather than having a GW he thought too flakey.  Hence my assertion they're not a numbers game and that Loghain wouldn't pass muster with Duncan either.  Where's my distortion ?data:image/png;base64,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%3D

The fact that Loghain is a reknowned General and fighter whom played a big part in Ferelden being the country it is today after overcoming and kicking out the Orlesians.

The hilarious thing that you fail to notice is that Loghain is kind of already following the Warden Motto

In war, victory - stuffed the orlesians
In peace, vigilance - constantly keeping any eye out for any orlesian attack
In death, sacrifice - Loghain WOULD die for his country, unlike Alistair who looks like he is about to brick himself when Riordan tells the story. If you spare Loghain this is further proven by how he reacts to Riordan's news.

Yes I am fully aware of the whole thing with Alistair and female wardens he is in love with. But Loghain would step up to do the sacrifice no matter whom was with him.

[Creature 1]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Well, seeing his recruitment methods I dont wonder there are only 2 of them in all Ferelden...

If you recall, there were more before Loghain decided to go get dinner during an important battle. 

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

robertthebard wrote...



I love the line coming into Lothering; "Is it so hard to understand my being upset? How would you feel if somebody close to you died?" to which the Human Noble can't say; "Gee, I don't know, it's not like your hero daddy didn't blackmail my dying father into making me a GW in order to save me from Howe, and then drag me off knowing my mother is going to die right beside him. It's not like I didn't walk into my brother's room, and see his wife and son dead on the floor". For all the detractors, Alistair and Cailin weren't close.

First of all, He was talking about Duncan, not Cailin and second you take the entire quote out of context as he's addressing it to Morrigan who's giving him a had time, not for whining, but for being quiet during the journey from the Kocari Wilds to Loathering.

I don't think I see what point you are trying to make, unless it's his grief is justifiable, but the PC has to stuff their feelings to accomodate his?  The point to that post was that you can't slam him with that.  Instead of pulling an Alistair, even in the Wilds during the gather the blood and treaties part, you are expected to put your feelings on hold to accomplish your mission.  Yet, this isn't applicable to Alistair?  Is it because you feel Alistair was betrayed?  The PC was also betrayed, and unlike Alistair, who doesn't know how Duncan died, particulars, any way, the PC did see their nephew and sister in law, and their mother's friend, and their lover for the night, no big attachment there, so far as we know, and then has Duncan blackmail the bleeding out father to save the PC.  So, where is Alistair's circumstance worse?  That it happened to him?  Self serving Alistair lost Duncan, and yes, that's also the point.  He could give a rat's ass about Cailin, Duncan died, his world is over.

The point is that you're taking the quote totally out of context. What he says isn't some kind of spontaneous show of grief on his part, but a reply to Morrigan who is making FUN of his grief. She does similarly to a Noble PC if finding Fergus telling him/her not to bother because Fergus has either fled to the north or is dead, where Alistair defends to PC's need to find his/her brother. Morrigan doesn't understand, and Alistair is trying to get her to... a futile exercise at that point, but that's another post.

Alistair isn't wailing or gnashing his teeth as you go from Flemeth's hut to Lothering. He's grieving quietly, which is understandable. Also consider that the PC has had time to adjust to his/her grief, traveling for however long with Duncan to Ostagar, whereas Alistair's grief for Duncan is very new, and he's still adjusting to it.

And why would Alistair feel close to Cailan? They met a total of once as children, weren't raised together, and there's no reason for there to be any close filial attatchment. Duncan, on the otherhand, rescued him from a life he really didn't want (ie being a templar), and gave him a purpose other than hunting mages and guarding towers and chantries for the rest of his life. Duncan was a surrogate father to him, where Calian was a remote figure that Alistair was told he was a potential threat to. There's nothing selfish or self-serving about Alistair's emotions.

As for Duncan's "blackmail", I don't see it as blackmail at all. Duncan arrived at Highever Castle specifically to find a recruit. Bryce Cousland knew this from the beginning, and he understood why Duncan had to ask what he did: it was his duty to do so. And Couslands do their duty, no matter the cost. Even dying, Bryce Cousland understands that if the Blight isn't stopped, it doesn't matter how many Couslands survive, there won't be a world to live in. Watch Duncan's face while he's talks during the end of the noble PC origin. He doesn't like what he's doing, and when Eleanor says she's staying behind to give them time to escape, there's real grief on his face. Blackmail implies some kind of personal gain. Duncan gains nothing personally from what he does. He's dedicated to doing his duty and stopping the Blight, with no personal considerations. Talk to Riordain, and you find out that Duncan only left a soft spot for his recruits. Mentoring them was his only emotional outlet.

[Cybercat999]

master-fluff wrote...
To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.

GW recruits are everyone Duncan can get his hands on. Its even said somewhere he gets common criminals, thieves, apostates, basically everyone.
If they are not willing to come voluntarily he simply forces them with Right of Conscription.

So where do you see hand-picking, test of aptitude and above all trust and loyalty? My human noble PC hates his guts for forcing her into something she didnt want and would sooner cut his throat than show loyalty, with good reason too.
Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

[Creature 1]

Daveth was a pickpocket. He got chosen because of his ability to almost but not quite get away with Duncan's purse.

[Ariella]

robertthebard wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Yes, I am aware that Alistair is a flawed human, as pointed out repeatedly, but if my PC, who suffered incredible losses, possibly because of Loghain, can put that aside, then so should he. Especially because he worships the ground Duncan walks on.

Yeah, you lost your family, whom you've had most of your life. Alistair's never had that, or when he's about to he's had the carpet pulled out from under him, and this time that included the death of his father figure, the near death of another father figure, the death of almost every Grey Warden in Fereldan, the outlawing of said organization when it's Loghain who is the criminal and the fact that Loghain is fiddling while Fereldan burns.

I'd say Alistair lost as much or more than most of the PC origins, and thathe's got a right to carry a grudge. "Putting it aside" might not be as easy for him as you might think, and assuming that it would be just because you can rp putting it aside doesn't make it so. He has his own goals and motivations, he's not some tank bot you bring with you on a raid run.

Yes, his goals are to kill Loghain.  Nothing else matters, thanks for clearing that up.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said he has his own goals and motivations, one of which is seeing Loghain being brought to justice. Just because he doesn't put aside his grief as easily as some people claim the role played does not make him, a whiner or selfish. It just makes him human. 

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Cybercat999 wrote...

master-fluff wrote...
To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.

GW recruits are everyone Duncan can get his hands on. Its even said somewhere he gets common criminals, thieves, apostates, basically everyone.
If they are not willing to come voluntarily he simply forces them with Right of Conscription.

So where do you see hand-picking, test of aptitude and above all trust and loyalty? My human noble PC hates his guts for forcing her into something she didnt want and would sooner cut his throat than show loyalty, with good reason too.
Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

Both Duncan and Riordan tell the PC that they hire anyone willing to show commitment to the fight. Hence another reason why Duncan WOULD have done the same as Riordan at the Landsmeet

[Sialater]

Uh... what commitment to the fight did Loghain show? He didn't even believe it was a Blight. He was committed to "A" fight, not the one against the Blight.

[Cybercat999]

Creature 1 wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Well, seeing his recruitment methods I dont wonder there are only 2 of them in all Ferelden...

If you recall, there were more before Loghain decided to go get dinner during an important battle. 

If they were all "recruited" like my poor PC I wouldnt wonder if they actually flee the battle and go hide in Wilds all happy they managed to escape the fanatic. Not everyone is willing to be forced to die for greater good.

Modifié par Cybercat999, 04 janvier 2010 - 11:03 .

[Kohaku]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Well, seeing his recruitment methods I dont wonder there are only 2 of them in all Ferelden...

If you recall, there were more before Loghain decided to go get dinner during an important battle. 

If they were all "recruited" like my poor PC I wouldnt wonder if the actually flee the battle and go hide in Wilds all happy they managed to escape the fanatic. Not everyone is willing to be forced to die for greater good.

Like many have said on this message board already, most of the PCs get blackmailed into joining the Gray Wardens. I know there are few in Ferelden and they need all they can but it makes me wonder just how many of the current Gray Wardens were actually guilt tripped into it. If I had the choice I'd say a great big screw you and skip out on the battle as well.

[Cybercat999]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

master-fluff wrote...
To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.

GW recruits are everyone Duncan can get his hands on. Its even said somewhere he gets common criminals, thieves, apostates, basically everyone.
If they are not willing to come voluntarily he simply forces them with Right of Conscription.

So where do you see hand-picking, test of aptitude and above all trust and loyalty? My human noble PC hates his guts for forcing her into something she didnt want and would sooner cut his throat than show loyalty, with good reason too.
Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

Both Duncan and Riordan tell the PC that they hire anyone willing to show commitment to the fight. Hence another reason why Duncan WOULD have done the same as Riordan at the Landsmeet

I was anything but commited to his fight, I just wanted to save my parents and my home and I told him to stfu and gtfo like 3 times. He still recruited me......

[ReubenLiew]

Blackmailed only if you DON'T want to.

I think a huge majority of players will probably jump on the oppurtunity to be a Grey Warden instead of denying Duncan.

[master-fluff]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

I'm speaking for how my game is playing out in an attempt to explain to others why there is no way in hell I think my PC, Alistair or Duncan would have Loghain as a brother-in-arms.  YMMV and I'm not trying to deny your game experience(s).
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[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

Eruanna Guerrein wrote...

Ah but see, if you, as your PC, can't possibly trust Loghain to be on your team, you never find out if he is trustworthy or dutiful or not. At that point, you go with your gut. Just as those of you do when you decide to give him a shot... you make your judgement call at the time and you only find out what happens for those calls you make, not for the ones you don't. Just because you, as you, know the outcome, doesn't mean your PC does. So it is possible, as your PC, to find it impossible to trust Loghain.

Just as you, as a PC can find it impossible to trust Alistair.  Especially considering when you decide to do Redcliffe.  If you do all your treaties first, then Alistair has been living a lie for the entire time you know him.  Regardless of when, he's living that lie, both as a lie of omission, and an outright to your face lie until you go to Redcliffe, if he's with you, or save Eamon, if he's not.  Just as you can claim no excuse for Loghain, there is no excuse for Alistair.  Being afraid of being viewed differently, or being asked to man up to his responsibilities as heir to the throne are not reasons to forgive him for lying to you.  They are excuses to keep the lie going, until he knows that he's going to have to face up anyway, if you bring him to Redcliffe the first time.

Exactly... that's how you and your PC felt... I happen to have understood why Alistair wouldn't want to tell. Of course, I took his advice on my first playthrough and went to Redcliffe first. When he apologized for not telling me sooner, I wondered why on earth would I be mad. Hell it had maybe been two weeks since I woke up at Flemeth's and we hardly even know each other. For me, it was his business and him not telling me hadn't changed the course of what we were doing.  On my last playthrough, I went to Redcliffe earlier than intended and didn't have Al with me so I didn't get his confession so after I found out from Eamon, I gave him some sh** about it but still, I find his reasoning totally valid. Had he told me, would I have done things differently than I did? No, I wouldn't have and being a private person myself (and my PC being even more private since I have no other option), how could I blame him?

So for you... you can't forgive him. That's fine. But that's a personal decision that is made differently by different people and you can't say your response was the only right response. Just that it was the only right response for you.

Same thing as I said above. If I, as my PC, have seen no reason to trust Loghain, then fine. Even if *I* know that if I decide to trust him, things turn out fine, my PC isn't pyschic as far as I can tell so there's no way to know that. and no reason not to take his head off (although I'd prefer jail, yet another option not offered to me due to game mechanics).

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Xandurpein wrote...

And my point is that not everybody sees it that way. Some of us sees things in Loghain that makes us willing to trust him, despite of what he has done, and unless you are claiming that the writers screwed up totally in writing Loghain's character, then the facts of the game appears to prove us right im our belief.

You must have me confused with someone else as I never said either response was impossible. In fact, I was saying just the opposite. And I certainly never said anything about the writers screwing anything up. The fact is, that you and your PC can see it either way, hence the reason for the option.

[IPerrin]

master-fluff wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

I'm speaking for how my game is playing out in an attempt to explain to others why there is no way in hell I think my PC, Alistair or Duncan would have Loghain as a brother-in-arms.  YMMV and I'm not trying to deny your game experience(s).
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  And why speak up in an alistair hate thread if you're only speaking from your RP perspective? I think across all playthroughs you either don't know duncan well enough or you realize he would conscript loghain.  We all understand that Alistair can't accept Loghain joining the team, we're just insisting that he should, and him not setting aside his vendetta in the name of the greater good is reason for Alistair hate.

[Truncated Flea]

master-fluff wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Excuse me, what?  He'll take you in the Mage origin no matter which team you play for.  Jory made his intentions perfectly clear, and perfectly contradictory to everything Jory said prior to the joining.  Please, have your facts straight, and then feel free to distort them how you please. 

In my game, Duncan shows up looking for a new recruit.  I show him to his room at The First Enchanter's request, we talk a little and he seems like a nice guy.  Then the Jowen thing happens (I sided with Irving) at the end of which Duncan is there and he's essentially OK with my role in things.  Someone suggests I join the GWs (can't remember if it was Irving, Duncan or even me but apparently I've been a good student and no one questions the suggestion).  Irving checks if I'm willing and I jump at the chance. 

To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.  Jory didn't meet all the critieria and Duncan murdered him rather than having a GW he thought too flakey.  Hence my assertion they're not a numbers game and that Loghain wouldn't pass muster with Duncan either.  Where's my distortion ?data:image/png;base64,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%3D

You can end up with that view depending on the way you play things, but there are other, equally valid interpretations of Duncan's character. My city elf actually had a similar view - Duncan basically saved him from being executed by drafting him into the Grey Wardens, so he was happy enough to join. It was either die for certain or possibly die in battle, as far as he knew, so he had absolutely no problem with Duncan conscripting him.

When I played a dwarf commoner, though, she turned down Duncan's offer to join the Grey Wardens. She didn't want to leave her home and her sister, but Duncan then went on to completely ignore her by invoking the Right of Conscription, essentially forcing her into joining regardless of her wishes.

Just because Duncan does good things for some people and fights the Blight doesn't mean that he isn't also ruthless when need be. If he sees a person that he thinks will be a good Warden he'll conscript them, regardless of their feelings on the matter or their possible crimes (theft, murder, assisting a blood mage, being a blood mage, whatever). I don't see how this means that Grey Warden recruitment is all about quality, trust and loyalty. My dwarf didn't fit the trust or loyalty parts at all; she would've happily turned her back on the Grey Wardens at the first opportunity, but being forced into going through the joining meant that she didn't really have that option. It can be a similar story with Loghain - no trust or loyalty needed there, but you can conscript him anyway, if you consider him to be valuable/talented enough.

I personally see Duncan as a generally good dude who will do shady things if it will end the Blight, and I haven't seen anything in canon to contradict that opinion. I don't necessarily agree that Duncan would've leapt at the idea and said "YEAH LET'S RECRUIT LOGHAIN!!" because there's no way to know for sure, but I don't think it's unlikely that he would have considered it a good idea, based on the different parts of his character that you can see when you play your origin a little differently.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

robertthebard wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Excuse me, what?  He'll take you in the Mage origin no matter which team you play for.  Jory made his intentions perfectly clear, and perfectly contradictory to everything Jory said prior to the joining.  Please, have your facts straight, and then feel free to distort them how you please. 

In my game, Duncan shows up looking for a new recruit.  I show him to his room at The First Enchanter's request, we talk a little and he seems like a nice guy.  Then the Jowen thing happens (I sided with Irving) at the end of which Duncan is there and he's essentially OK with my role in things.  Someone suggests I join the GWs (can't remember if it was Irving, Duncan or even me but apparently I've been a good student and no one questions the suggestion).  Irving checks if I'm willing and I jump at the chance. 

To me, GW recruits are hand-picked to start, then they have to pass a test to show their aptitude and finally undergo a joining ritual which could kill them.  Hence my view that the GWs are a small, elite force based on quality, trust and loyalty.  Jory didn't meet all the critieria and Duncan murdered him rather than having a GW he thought too flakey.  Hence my assertion they're not a numbers game and that Loghain wouldn't pass muster with Duncan either.  Where's my distortion ?data:image/png;base64,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%3D

If you refuse to join the GW's, he will conscript you.  If you side with Jowan, he will still conscript you.

Again *you* know this, her mage did not know this.

[Ariella]

IPerrin wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Maybe you could try several origins with several dialog options before you make final conclusion?

I'm speaking for how my game is playing out in an attempt to explain to others why there is no way in hell I think my PC, Alistair or Duncan would have Loghain as a brother-in-arms.  YMMV and I'm not trying to deny your game experience(s).
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  And why speak up in an alistair hate thread if you're only speaking from your RP perspective? I think across all playthroughs you either don't know duncan well enough or you realize he would conscript loghain.  We all understand that Alistair can't accept Loghain joining the team, we're just insisting that he should, and him not setting aside his vendetta in the name of the greater good is reason for Alistair hate.

And if you're a noble PC, there's a very good reason to see Loghain safely dead.Hell, if your PC has ANY political savvy what so ever, keeping Loghain alive is actually more dangeorus in many ways than killing him off.

The Joining won't make him any more trustworthy, and considering he's been a divisive element in Fereldan since the battle of Ostagar, keeping him alive doesn't mean you're actually going to gain a general that many of the Fereldan banns will get behind. You're assuming that recruiting Loghain is going to gain the Grey Wardens something. But from a political perspective, Loghain can be see as a terrible liability. The only two people who are arguing for Loghain's life are his child and someone who was not at Ostagar. The former isn't all that impartial and latter doesn't have the same perspective as either the PC or Alistair. You don't see a single bann or arl speaking up to the Wardens to spare Loghain's life.

[master-fluff]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Yes I am fully aware of the whole thing with Alistair and female wardens he is in love with. But Loghain would step up to do the sacrifice no matter whom was with him.

What's romance got to do with the price of fish ? 

As for Loghain, I say you're only as good as your last battle.  Maybe he was a hero but now he's run away at Ostagar.  And he's tried to wipe out the GWs (despite the threat of a Blight).  And he's trying to take the throne by foul means which is dividing the country and leading to a civil war.  To me he's not much into personal sacrifice; Loghain now does what's good for Loghain and sod the consequences.  Power corrupts and all that.

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[Ariella]

master-fluff wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Yes I am fully aware of the whole thing with Alistair and female wardens he is in love with. But Loghain would step up to do the sacrifice no matter whom was with him.

What's romance got to do with the price of fish ? 

As for Loghain, I say you're only as good as your last battle.  Maybe he was a hero but now he's run away at Ostagar.  And he's tried to wipe out the GWs (despite the threat of a Blight).  And he's trying to take the throne by foul means which is dividing the country and leading to a civil war.  To me he's not much into personal sacrifice; Loghain now does what's good for Loghain and sod the consequences.  Power corrupts and all that.

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Amen.... Romance has little to do with the fact that Loghain violated his oaths (something in the mores of Fereldan culture is a terrible sin) to his king and those he was sworn to defend when he abandoned Cailan at Ostagar. What "sacrifice" did Loghain make, except losing the respect of a lot of his peers, killing the son of his best friend and the woman he loved, and screwing over the country he claimed to love out of some imagined threat.

End of the story is that Loghain betrayed everything he claimed to love and want to protect, and in the process nearly destroyed Fereldan... This is why he's the villian of the piece.

[master-fluff]

IPerrin wrote...

 And why speak up in an alistair hate thread if you're only speaking from your RP perspective?

I didn't realise only those who have played the game multiple times or are into serious metagaming were allowed to post an opinion.  My bad.  Feel free to set me on ignore.
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[Sabriana]

You can fault Loghain for many things. He did a lot of damage. He's so blinded that the can't see the forest for the trees. He did so many dastardly things, Henry VIII would fall on his knees in admiration.

But one thing weaves through the whole of the game. Loghain would do anything, and I mean anything for Fereldan.

So yes, I would trust him in that respect. He's developed an epic paranoia in regards to Orlais, and unfortunately no one who doesn't read the books will know exactly why. He has every reason to hate and distrust Orlais, but Cailan insists on throwing them into Loghain's face - repeatedly.

In my view, Loghain has only one goal, and that is that Fereldan stays an independant, self-contained nation. Wrong? Perhaps.

What my PC keeps in perspective is that none of that matters. If the battle is lost, so is all of Fereldan, and nothing matters anymore. No petty scrabbles matter. No bids for power matter. Nothing matters, because if the archdemon succeeds, Fereldan is as dead as a doornail. Nothing will survive. It will be total devastation.

[IPerrin]

master-fluff wrote...

IPerrin wrote...

 And why speak up in an alistair hate thread if you're only speaking from your RP perspective?

I didn't realise only those who have played the game multiple times or are into serious metagaming were allowed to post an opinion.  My bad.  Feel free to set me on ignore.
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  I just asked why, I didn't say you're not allowed to post.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Sabriana wrote...

You can fault Loghain for many things. He did a lot of damage. He's so blinded that the can't see the forest for the trees. He did so many dastardly things, Henry VIII would fall on his knees in admiration.
But one thing weaves through the whole of the game. Loghain would do anything, and I mean anything for Fereldan.
So yes, I would trust him in that respect. He's developed an epic paranoia in regards to Orlais, and unfortunately no one who doesn't read the books will know exactly why. He has every reason to hate and distrust Orlais, but Cailan insists on throwing them into Loghain's face - repeatedly.
In my view, Loghain has only one goal, and that is that Fereldan stays an independant, self-contained nation. Wrong? Perhaps.
What my PC keeps in perspective is that none of that matters. If the battle is lost, so is all of Fereldan, and nothing matters anymore. No petty scrabbles matter. No bids for power matter. Nothing matters, because if the archdemon succeeds, Fereldan is as dead as a doornail. Nothing will survive. It will be total devastation.

A totally valid response and outlook.

My PC saw much of what yours did... Loghain loved Ferelden and was off his rocker in regards to Orlais, but for my PC, he was so much off his rocker, he was willing to do *anything* to keep Ferelden the way he wanted it. And he never believed in the blight. That instability and inability to see what was right in front of his face led my PC to believe it was too risky to assume Ferelden would be better off if he remained alive.

I will have a PC who will admire the war hero, strength of Loghain at some point, however. But likely only the one.