129 réponses à ce sujet

[Default137]

I'm curious, as this could go either way in game, and if it goes one way, it means Loghain didn't have as much to do with Duncan and Cailans deaths as we were led to believe, and may in fact not be anywhere near as bad as many would like to portray him. ( Although he is still an immoral bastard, who has no qualms with slavery, scapegoating a group he dislikes, and poisoning potential problems while he consolidates his rule, there are no questions in these matters. )

Basically, in case you didn't know, the plan at Ostagar, from what I understood was that Cailan would lead the majority of Fereldens military into the Darkspawn hordes, drawing them out, and leaving their flanks open to an attack on the side, when the beacon was lit, Loghain would charge in, and take out most of the Darkspawn. It all sounds well and good, but according to Wynne, it didn't work nearly as well as it should have, and if you have her and Loghain out, she confirms what he says, and tells you that the battle had already been lost long before the tower was even lit, implying that even if Loghain charged, Cailan and Duncan would have most likely died.

But the question is, who made this plan? The game doesn't seem so sure on who made it, in the start of the game, we only know serveral things, namely that Loghain doesn't agree with Cailans ideas, they have been yelling at each other, and according to an offhand comment by Cailan, that Loghain MAY have planned the battle. ( I must be off, Loghain wishes to bore me with more of his strategies" )

Later on in the game, if you choose Loghain over Alistar, and keep him out, he talks a bit about Ostagar, especially if you have him and Wynne out, and their conversations seem to point that it wasn't Loghain who planned Ostagar, but Cailan, who wanted glory, and thought this would be the best way to end the Blight once and for all, in one big attack, and that Loghain has been argueing with him nonstop over how suicidal it actually was, and that they should do something more rational, Wynne also points out that by the time the tower was lit, it was far to late to do anything.

So who really killed Cailan and Duncan? Was it Loghains plan all along, and he came up with all this just to leave Cailan to die? Or was it Cailans lust for glory that caused him to come up with a foolhardy plan that got Duncan and him killed, and forced Loghain to leave the field, because in his paranoia fueled haze, he was worried that losing men in that battle would have left Ferelden open to attack from Orlais.

My main questions to Bioware, if they are still here are these.

- Did Loghain really plan out Ostagar in an attempt to kill Cailan, or did he leave due to his paranoia, and Cailan was the one who came up with everything, against Loghains wishes. From the way the game makes it look, Cailan came up with everything in an attempt to get glory, and when Loghain realized he could not change Cailans mind, he decided to just leave him behind.

- How was the battle going when the tower was lit, from what we managed to see in the cutscene, it was going very badly, however, this could have been showing us what happened to the battlefield due to Loghains abscense, and could have actually been a long time after the tower was lit. From what Wynne and Loghain imply, the battle, and in a way Duncan and Cailan were doomed from the very start.

- If Loghain survived DA:O, will we see him again in Sequels? :3

Modifié par Default137, 02 janvier 2010 - 07:13 .

[0mar]

You don't go through with a plan unless you think it has a chance of success. At least, any sane general wouldn't.

IMO, Loghain let everyone on that the plan was a success, but it's pretty clear that he intended to walk away before he even arrived at Ostagar. The poisoning of Arl Eamon and the death of the Couslands prove that much. Those happened well before Ostagar took place and were instigated by Loghain's orders.

Secondly, I don't think you can trust a single word out of Loghain's mouth.  He lies, cheats and schemes for his way the entire game.  He was ready to have his own daughter killed to further his ambitions.

Modifié par 0mar, 02 janvier 2010 - 07:34 .

[westiex9]

0mar wrote...

 He was ready to have his own daughter killed to further his ambitions.

at least thats what anora will tell you

[trh5001]

Don't forget that it was Loghains men who were exploring the underground chambers of the Tower of Ishal. I think this means that Loghain found out about the darkspawn comming and wanted whoever went up their to fail to light the beacon so when he retreated he could claim it was because the beacon was never lit. It would also lend credence to why he never wanted the Grey Wardens to go light the beacon, being that Grey Wardens would have a far greater likelihood of success than anyone else almost ensuring the beacon would never be lit and no one could claim he abandoned the king.

[Default137]

0mar wrote...

You don't go through with a plan unless you think it has a chance of success. At least, any sane general wouldn't.

IMO, Loghain let everyone on that the plan was a success, but it's pretty clear that he intended to walk away before he even arrived at Ostagar. The poisoning of Arl Eamon and the death of the Couslands prove that much. Those happened well before Ostagar took place and were instigated by Loghain's orders.

Secondly, I don't think you can trust a single word out of Loghain's mouth.  He lies, cheats and schemes for his way the entire game.  He was ready to have his own daughter killed to further his ambitions.

Problem is, he's just a General, Cailan is the KING OF FERELDEN.

To put this in real world terms, if the President of the United States said we were going to attack Canada, and there was no Congress, or Senate, we are attacking Canada, no matter if all the best Generals in the country tell him its a totally stupid idea, if they can't change his mind, its going to happen regardless.

As for Eamon and Couslands, we don't know enough of exactly what happened to point the finger exactly at Loghain, its fun to, but we just don't have the information, I mean, if Eamon got poisoned AFTER Ostagar one could say Loghain was just making sure potential threats wouldn't try stuff while he got everything back in order, however, if he got poisoned before, it could imply that Loghain was indeed planning this well in advance.

As for everything Loghain says being a lie, I honestly doubt that, he's manipulative, paranoid, crazy in many ways, and willing to do anything to keep Orlais out, but he does have standards, and at the point this conversation came up, it was pretty much settled he would be dying a short while later as a dragon snack, add in the fact Wynne basically confirmed most of it, and well...

As for the Couslands bit, I always got the feeling that was mainly Howe, not Loghain, and while it does imply Loghain was already setting everything up for a trap, by keeping the Cousland forces from arriving to the fight, thus making things worse for Cailan, it COULD be argued that he already knew Cailans plan was going to fail, and it would cost Ferelden greatly, and he would be most likely in trouble for leaving them ( ala Eamon and Cousland being against his actions ) and just decided to get rid of Cousland and reward Howe at the same time.

I know it seems I'm grasping at straws, and I actually am, I just like to look at things in a more abstract way, and am trying to see just how feasible it would be for Loghain to actually not have planned out the whole kill Cailan thing using what information we have been given, as there is a good bit of evidence implying Cailan sealed his own doom, and Loghain just hit the final nail in the coffin, rather then setting it all up ahead of time, and am wondering how Bioware views his character and his actions to see what really happened.

[robertthebard]

Cailin to PC and Duncan in the Royal Welcome: Sorry to cut this short, but Loghain waits eagerly to bore me with his strategies.



Cailin to Loghain, after "You will remember who is King": Ok, speak your strategy. Loghain speaks, and Cailin interjects: Yes, I remember.



The plan was Loghains. The two men most likely to give him fits about the Regency are taken out, before Ostagar's battle. We know about one before we're even recruited to be a Grey Warden in the Human Noble story. In fact, it directly leads to our being recruited, since prior to Howe's attack, Duncan has already been told that unless he invokes the Right, he can't have the PC.

[jon 45]

Default137 wrote...
As for Eamon and Couslands, we don't know enough of exactly what happened to point the finger exactly at Loghain, its fun to, but we just don't have the information, I mean, if Eamon got poisoned AFTER Ostagar one could say Loghain was just making sure potential threats wouldn't try stuff while he got everything back in order, however, if he got poisoned before, it could imply that Loghain was indeed planning this well in advance.

The need for a lot of people to find excuses for Loghain is truly puzzling to me.

We DO have enough information to know that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar (it is explicitly stated by the knight you meet in Lothering) and that Jowan was hired by Loghain personally to do the deed.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Even David Gaider confirmed Loghain was plotting before Ostagar.



The battle WAS winnable, but Loghain sabotaged it.

It was his battle plan.Loghain had at least half of the forces with him (from what we can see, all are heavy infantry)



The battle was already lost before it even begun, because of Loghain. There is no doubt here as to who caused all of that.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The battle WAS winnable, but Loghain sabotaged it.
It was his battle plan.Loghain had at least half of the forces with him (from what we can see, all are heavy infantry)
all of that.

Unless you are able to supply evidence such as either a reliable eye witness in the game, or some sort of belivable force ratio derieved from either in game, or one of the developers. I cannot possibly see how you can  state this as an absolute truth. That it's your opinion is obvious, but what is your proof.

The only eye witness i have found in the game, apart from Loghain himself, and he is talking in his own defence, is Wynne and as far as I know she agrees that the battle WAS lost. So while I don't think this is evidence to prove once and for all that the Battle was lost when the fire was lit, I don't see how you can say for certain that it wasn't.

The fact that Loghain may have been plotting before Ostargard really doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Loghain may have been plotting who knows what, but if the Darkspawn horde was still too big, it was too big.

Trying to settle a debate by stating your opinion as an absolute truth, without supporting evidence is just trolling.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 02 janvier 2010 - 03:09 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Loghain made it, Cailan approved it.

[Sabriana]

westiex9 wrote...

0mar wrote...

 He was ready to have his own daughter killed to further his ambitions.

at least thats what anora will tell you

And of course, we believe every word Anora says. She's so very trust-worthy

This game is very ambigous, which I think is great. For example, the Tower of Ishal. Now, I do believe that Loghain had it closed off for his own reasons, but I don't believe that he was in cahoots with the darkspawn in a way. Yes, he most likely would tell his men not to light the beacon, but I don't think he was aware of the darkspawn tunneling up through the lower chambers.

IIRC, neither Cailan nor Loghain believed at the time that it was a true Blight. So it is feasable to assume that neither had a clue that the main horde would be so rassafrassin' huge.

As far as the Couslands go, that could go either way as well. It could be possible that Howe acted alone, that he was only ordered to delay his men, but then took advantage of the castle being basically defenseless. He's a slimy bastard, and Loghain is very succeptible to any thing that might threaten Ferelden's independence. Howe would have to do some very fancy footwork, but it seems as if he knows what strings to pull. After all, the Couslands fought for Ferelden and against Orlais, while the Howes had to be beaten into submission first. Loghain's epic Orlesian paranoia could be played very nicely by a conniving manipulator.

Who's plan was it really? I can't say for certain. I tend to think that most of it was Loghain's, but I think the King had a big hand in it. Else, why would they be arguing to the point of yelling and screaming if everything was so clear?

[Default137]

jon 45 wrote...

Default137 wrote...
As for Eamon and Couslands, we don't know enough of exactly what happened to point the finger exactly at Loghain, its fun to, but we just don't have the information, I mean, if Eamon got poisoned AFTER Ostagar one could say Loghain was just making sure potential threats wouldn't try stuff while he got everything back in order, however, if he got poisoned before, it could imply that Loghain was indeed planning this well in advance.

The need for a lot of people to find excuses for Loghain is truly puzzling to me.

We DO have enough information to know that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar (it is explicitly stated by the knight you meet in Lothering) and that Jowan was hired by Loghain personally to do the deed.

The Knight makes no mention of such, he only makes mention to the fact that Eamon has been poisoned for "many months" and that implies if you go there first that Loghain was in fact plotting early, however, considering the actions of the entire game take an entire year, it is VERY feasible that this was just a developer error, and it actually happened some time after Ostagar.

And that makes more sense really, I mean, if it did happen before, during, or right after Ostagar, that would be a pretty significant plothole, because if it was before, Jowan was in the Circle of Magi, and was not really able to poison anyone, if it was during, Jowan is the best poisoner the world has ever seen, and whatshername must be super dense, because he managed to become a tutor for all of a day, and then poison her husband while he slept while surrounded by heavily armed guards who would be very suspicious that a Mage that had been in the keep for a day was casting something on Arl Eamon, and if it was right after well, that makes a bit more sense, but the way its presented, Jowan GOT there after Ostagar, and then spent a few months waiting for his chance.

As for the battle being won, there is absolutly no evidence pointing that this may have been the case, in fact, all evidence points to the exact OPPOSITE. Loghain, and Wynne both agree that nothing could have been done by the time the tower was lit, and while Loghain may be lying, uh, I have serious doubts Wynne is trying to sell you something here.

If you can find definate proof in game that the battle could have been won, please, show me, I'd be glad to see it, but from all evidence we have been presented, Loghain would have suffered heavy casualties charging in, would have not been able to reach the King even with a full charge, and would not have been able to do anything to the Darkspawn. In his own words "Even if I had charged it would have been a fools errand, you saw the battle Wynne, you know how badly they were doing, if I was to charge, Ferelden would have been open to attack from Orlais, and Cailan still would have died".

[Hahren]

Sabriana wrote...

westiex9 wrote...

0mar wrote...

 He was ready to have his own daughter killed to further his ambitions.

at least thats what anora will tell you

And of course, we believe every word Anora says. She's so very trust-worthy

This game is very ambigous, which I think is great. For example, the Tower of Ishal. Now, I do believe that Loghain had it closed off for his own reasons, but I don't believe that he was in cahoots with the darkspawn in a way. Yes, he most likely would tell his men not to light the beacon, but I don't think he was aware of the darkspawn tunneling up through the lower chambers.

IIRC, neither Cailan nor Loghain believed at the time that it was a true Blight. So it is feasable to assume that neither had a clue that the main horde would be so rassafrassin' huge.

As far as the Couslands go, that could go either way as well. It could be possible that Howe acted alone, that he was only ordered to delay his men, but then took advantage of the castle being basically defenseless. He's a slimy bastard, and Loghain is very succeptible to any thing that might threaten Ferelden's independence. Howe would have to do some very fancy footwork, but it seems as if he knows what strings to pull. After all, the Couslands fought for Ferelden and against Orlais, while the Howes had to be beaten into submission first. Loghain's epic Orlesian paranoia could be played very nicely by a conniving manipulator.

Who's plan was it really? I can't say for certain. I tend to think that most of it was Loghain's, but I think the King had a big hand in it. Else, why would they be arguing to the point of yelling and screaming if everything was so clear?

Howe acting alone makes no sense. He couldn't possibly get away with the murdering of the Couslands if Ostagar was a success... Fergus wasn't killed their. Fergus is also next in line for the Terynir, and due to the reaction of the King when your noble tells him your family is slain well... You can bet that Howe will be put to death. 

Howe is slimy, but he's far from stupid. He wouldn't leave a loose end like Fergus unless he knew that problem would be taken care of as well. Howe also obviously lies about his intent to join up with the Couslands and battle side by side at Ostagar. Reason being is that no one bats an eye that Howe doesn't show up at Ostagar. The king isn't expecting Arl Eamon, and was probably told that Arl Howe wasn't coming. Who would do this? Most likely Loghain.

The Ostagar plan was probably a joint conspiracy brought up by Loghain, and Howe. Loghain had the battle savy to know how to cover his tracks, and make it look like a failed campaign. Though Howe probably planted the seed in his head, and made the suggestions playing to his paranoia.

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

This game is very ambigous, which I think is great. For example, the Tower of Ishal. Now, I do believe that Loghain had it closed off for his own reasons, but I don't believe that he was in cahoots with the darkspawn in a way. Yes, he most likely would tell his men not to light the beacon, but I don't think he was aware of the darkspawn tunneling up through the lower chambers.

IIRC, neither Cailan nor Loghain believed at the time that it was a true Blight. So it is feasable to assume that neither had a clue that the main horde would be so rassafrassin' huge.

I very much agree with you. The game is ambigous. There almost no truly good or truly evil characters or options. There are however a lot of interesting and flawed personalities. That is what makes it so interesting. It really is no point trying to shoehorn anything (other than the Archdemon and the Darkspawn) into either the all good or all evil corner, unless you are doing it as part of your roleplaying experience, when anything is permitted ofc.

[Hahren]

Default137 wrote...

jon 45 wrote...

Default137 wrote...
As for Eamon and Couslands, we don't know enough of exactly what happened to point the finger exactly at Loghain, its fun to, but we just don't have the information, I mean, if Eamon got poisoned AFTER Ostagar one could say Loghain was just making sure potential threats wouldn't try stuff while he got everything back in order, however, if he got poisoned before, it could imply that Loghain was indeed planning this well in advance.

The need for a lot of people to find excuses for Loghain is truly puzzling to me.

We DO have enough information to know that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar (it is explicitly stated by the knight you meet in Lothering) and that Jowan was hired by Loghain personally to do the deed.

The Knight makes no mention of such, he only makes mention to the fact that Eamon has been poisoned for "many months" and that implies if you go there first that Loghain was in fact plotting early, however, considering the actions of the entire game take an entire year, it is VERY feasible that this was just a developer error, and it actually happened some time after Ostagar.

And that makes more sense really, I mean, if it did happen before, during, or right after Ostagar, that would be a pretty significant plothole, because if it was before, Jowan was in the Circle of Magi, and was not really able to poison anyone, if it was during, Jowan is the best poisoner the world has ever seen, and whatshername must be super dense, because he managed to become a tutor for all of a day, and then poison her husband while he slept while surrounded by heavily armed guards who would be very suspicious that a Mage that had been in the keep for a day was casting something on Arl Eamon, and if it was right after well, that makes a bit more sense, but the way its presented, Jowan GOT there after Ostagar, and then spent a few months waiting for his chance.

As for the battle being won, there is absolutly no evidence pointing that this may have been the case, in fact, all evidence points to the exact OPPOSITE. Loghain, and Wynne both agree that nothing could have been done by the time the tower was lit, and while Loghain may be lying, uh, I have serious doubts Wynne is trying to sell you something here.

If you can find definate proof in game that the battle could have been won, please, show me, I'd be glad to see it, but from all evidence we have been presented, Loghain would have suffered heavy casualties charging in, would have not been able to reach the King even with a full charge, and would not have been able to do anything to the Darkspawn. In his own words "Even if I had charged it would have been a fools errand, you saw the battle Wynne, you know how badly they were doing, if I was to charge, Ferelden would have been open to attack from Orlais, and Cailan still would have died".

Eamon is most likely poisoned to keep his vote out of the Landsmeet. Duncan brings greetings from Eamon to Cailan when you arrive in Ostagar. So we know he is still doing well just before the battle starts. Plus while you are incapacitated you find out later that it has been "nearly a year". So Jowan has plenty of time to set himself up in Redcliffe with Loghain's ok. Plus, I never believed Jowan to act alone. I always felt he was part of the greater plot set up by Uldred, but there isn't much to support that. Just my hunch.

I agree that win/lose for Ostagar is irrelevant when the plan was sabotaged from the begining.

[Sialater]

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as an Orlesian organization. The plan was to get rid of the GWs first and foremost. He tried to talk the king out of staying with them in the fight and objected when the PC and Alistair are put forward to light the beacon.



He wrote the king off when the glory mad idiot stayed with his heroes. He shouldn't have, but he did. Everything was done to clear Ferelden of Orlesian influence, real or imagined.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Sialater wrote...

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as an Orlesian organization. The plan was to get rid of the GWs first and foremost. He tried to talk the king out of staying with them in the fight and objected when the PC and Alistair are put forward to light the beacon.

He wrote the king off when the glory mad idiot stayed with his heroes. He shouldn't have, but he did. Everything was done to clear Ferelden of Orlesian influence, real or imagined.

I agree.  That seems like the likely thought process Loghain had.  However, the resulting ideas that he did not change his mind when Cailan chose to stand with the Wardens and that he would sacrifice a large part of his army to the darkspawn at a time of crisis are unforgivable.

[Sialater]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as an Orlesian organization. The plan was to get rid of the GWs first and foremost. He tried to talk the king out of staying with them in the fight and objected when the PC and Alistair are put forward to light the beacon.

He wrote the king off when the glory mad idiot stayed with his heroes. He shouldn't have, but he did. Everything was done to clear Ferelden of Orlesian influence, real or imagined.

I agree.  That seems like the likely thought process Loghain had.  However, the resulting ideas that he did not change his mind when Cailan chose to stand with the Wardens and that he would sacrifice a large part of his army to the darkspawn at a time of crisis are unforgivable.

I agree with that, too.  He shouldn't have left the king to die.  When Cailan insisted upon his version of the plan, Loghain should have changed his, at least long enough to extract the king.  Failing to rescue the king was against his sworn duty.  But who cares, as long as Orlais was removed from Ferelden?

[Truncated Flea]

Sabriana wrote...

IIRC, neither Cailan nor Loghain believed at the time that it was a true Blight. So it is feasable to assume that neither had a clue that the main horde would be so rassafrassin' huge.

Yeah, I agree with this. If you talk to the soldier who's affected by the taint at Ostagar, he rants about how the darkspawn are going to overwhelm everyone and that everyone will die, while neither Cailan nor Loghain seem to take the horde as seriously as they should. They don't think it's a real Blight (or at least Loghain doesn't). So I think they underestimated how powerful/organised/numerous the darkspawn would be.

Having said that, the plan was Loghain's. There's no reason to think otherwise, since every character who has something to say about the upcoming battle makes mention of Loghain's plans and relying on his forces to turn the tide of battle. I find Loghain a fascinating character, but he knew what he was doing and there's no real way to defend it.

[jon 45]

Default137 wrote...
The Knight makes no mention of such, he only makes mention to the fact that Eamon has been poisoned for "many months" and that implies if you go there first that Loghain was in fact plotting early, however, considering the actions of the entire game take an entire year, it is VERY feasible that this was just a developer error, and it actually happened some time after Ostagar.

And that makes more sense really, I mean, if it did happen before, during, or right after Ostagar, that would be a pretty significant plothole, because if it was before, Jowan was in the Circle of Magi, and was not really able to poison anyone, if it was during, Jowan is the best poisoner the world has ever seen, and whatshername must be super dense, because he managed to become a tutor for all of a day, and then poison her husband while he slept while surrounded by heavily armed guards who would be very suspicious that a Mage that had been in the keep for a day was casting something on Arl Eamon, and if it was right after well, that makes a bit more sense, but the way its presented, Jowan GOT there after Ostagar, and then spent a few months waiting for his chance.

One more time: you meet a knight in Lothering (i.e. the very first location you can go to after Ostagar) who tells you that Eamon fell ill before the battle. I think he actually uses this as an argument against Loghain being involved with this, which is of course proven wrong by Jowan and Isolde.

On top of that David Gaider has, as someone mentioned upthread, stated that Loghain was plotting against Cailan before Ostagar.

The whole plot of the game makes a lot more sense if you stop looking for excuses for Loghain and let him be the villain of the piece. He then becomes a rather interesting (and dare I say vaguely competent) character who would have gotten away with it if it weren't for that meddling witch.

[trh5001]

I'm a little curious as to the time table it takes Duncan in finding you as a recruit to going to ostagar because as we know Eamon fell ill before the battle but also Duncan says to Cailan that your uncle wants you to know that his forces could be here within a week. Which clearly means the knights hadn't yet left on their mad quest for the Urn and that Eamon wasn't gravely ill at the time Duncan saw him. Just curious about the timeline is all.

[Sialater]

Duncan took a detour from visiting Redcliffe to collect the PC. That's at least several weeks. Eamon could have fallen ill from Jowan's efforts in Redcliffe after Duncan left. Duncan wouldn't have had any news to the contrary while collecting the PC. Jowan could have been intercepted on the way out of the Tower, after all, and redirected toward Redcliffe immediately.

[TUHD]

Seems to me that Duncan needed some time to travel to Ostagar... this include the detour to get new potential Grey Warden's I guess. Perhaps that's why any timetable you attempt to make goes awry...

[Xandurpein]

I'm still not sure what to belive about Ostagard. There is simply too much in what you see prior to Ostagard that suggests that Loghain is at the very least hedging his bets with the plan. At the same time it doesn't make sense if he was only out to kill Cailen. He should have been happy about everything and cheering it as he had maneuvered Cailen right where he wanted if it was all just a setup to kill Cailen. My feeling is that Loghain really hoped he could persuade Cailen to see things his way, and only actually betrayed him at the last moment, when he thought Cailen was "lost".

The plan gave Loghain lots of options. He could wait until the last moment before he actually committed himself to either avoiding battle or helping Cailen, depending on how the battle went. There is also the matter of the delay in lighting the beacon becuase the player has to fight their way through the Tower of Ishaal. Until someone can produce more evidence, I think the truth can be a lot of things.

It may be that Loghain simply decided to kill Cailen as soon Cailen refused to give in to his paranoid ideas. It might be that it was to late anyway, regardless of what Loghain had planned or not by the time the beacon was lit. As it seems to me in the cut scene, Duncan and the King dies just ahortly after the beacon is lit, but that may be just perception. It's even possible that the truth is somewhere in between - that the situation was dire, but Loghain managed to really convince himself it was truly lost.

/Edit. There are some notable examples of the type of behaviour I ascribe to Loghain form the War of the Roses in England. Like the Earl of Oxford at Bosworth Field who simply had his army stand by idly until he could see which side was winning before committing himself to one side.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 03 janvier 2010 - 12:58 .