129 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeStrike8]

Pish. I don't care who conjured up the plan, but whatever fool decided that Ostagar was a good defensive position should be fed to a Broodmother. I mean, what? That place wasn't even a walled fort!

[Vicious]

Nope, Loghain intended for Cailan to die. Preferably painfully.



Anything to stop Orlais from getting another foothold back into the country. After all, Cailan had already inbvited them to return with what.... 3 legions? Damn right Loghain wanted him dead and the Orlesians away.

[RSTORM50]

You meet another who may have been at Ostagar. The demented fella locked in the dungeon at Howe's estate. He talks about being told to retreat but he's really out of it.



And there IS evidence the battle at Ostagar was not winnable. As planned, it may have been a success if the beacon had been lit when the signal was given. That signal would have come as soon as the enemy was committed to the attack. Cailin gives the signal, beacon is lit and Loghain rolls up the horde with his flanking action.



But the plan hits a snag the moment it's realized the darkspawn have the tower and you've got to slug your way to the top. At that point, the battle is lost because you're not going to be there to see the signal which is the optimum time to begin Loghain's flanking action.



As for that real world example given by Default137, the President may decide an attack is going to happen but the generals will be the ones to plan the battle(s). (One noted example of a leader overruling his generals in the field is Hitler... The evacuation of Dunkirk is a good example of that, as well as rufusing to allow his generals to retreat to defensible positions in Russia, winter 1941)

[RSTORM50]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Pish. I don't care who conjured up the plan, but whatever fool decided that Ostagar was a good defensive position should be fed to a Broodmother. I mean, what? That place wasn't even a walled fort!

Speaking of, my last playthrough I waited until after getting Loghain to go to Warden's Peak. After you're done he makes the comment the Peak is "solid and defensible." And goes on to say it should come in handy in the coming months.

[Vicious]

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.

Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.





Source: Party Banter.

[Sialater]

Vicious wrote...

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.
Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.
Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.
Loghain: Are you satisfied now?
Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.
Loghain: Such loyalty.
Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?
Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.
Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!
Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.


Source: Party Banter.

None of that indicates he didn't do exactly what I said, that it was a trap for the Grey Wardens and Cailan was a bystander.

[Kelanil]

Yeah I always wondered who set up the plans of Ostagar. I know its a game and all but the kings army is outnumbered but has a fortified position that funnels the enemy into them and they have high ground with mages and archers yet in the scene the army runs out to the enemy who has them outnumbered..../facepalm.

[robertthebard]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Pish. I don't care who conjured up the plan, but whatever fool decided that Ostagar was a good defensive position should be fed to a Broodmother. I mean, what? That place wasn't even a walled fort!

You should look around more.  Crossing the bridge to the Tower of Ishal, if you do it before the battle, you can see you are on a very high wall.  The fortress at Ostagar was built, presumbably by dwarves, for the Tevintar Imperium, to keep the Wilderfolk from invading Ferelden.  It was a very defensible position.  In fact, it was probably the best position for a major battle you're going to see in Ferelden, save Soldier's Peak.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

From conversations with Duncan and Alistair before the whole battle, it's clear both of them really believed that Loghain was the one who was going to win the battle with his tactics. Though not said directly, both seemed to think the king was a little overly enthusiastic, and Loghain's more rational, realistic planning and combat experience was what everyone was relying on to save the day. Cailain pretty much let Loghain run the whole planning part while he went of to play with the Wardens. So the battle plans were clearly Loghains. The disagreements between himself and king were in regards to allowing Orlesian troops to join in, as well as Orlesian Wardens. That was what Loghain had the major problems with. it comes up in the pre-battle planning quite a bit. Calian's presence amongst the troops, in a dangerous place, was also argued, but from Loghain's reactions, he really went ballistic at the mention of Orlesians.



Many other small bits of foreshadowing also suggest that Loghain had regicide on his mind for quite some time. The knight you talk to in Lothering mentions that the Arl got sick before or during Ostagar, which we later find out is due to Jowan poisoning him. Given distances to travel and the relative shakieness of a set time frame for the origins stories, and given the time it takes to travel from place to place, it is not difficult to have Jowan fit in there. The time between his escape from the circle and his capture could have been mere days. He was an idiot, and even with no phylactery, the templars could have probably hunted him down pretty easy.



So, Loghain was planning something big and nasty on the side, and given the evidence presented in story, he was quite busy before ostagar took place. Which would make sense, because it seems that beyond ostagar, Cailain was working on repairing ties and relations with Orlais.



Though no one seems sure at Ostagar if it's a real Blight, it's clear that the numbers of darkspawn alone are a serious problem that needs dealing with. it's not like Cailian wanted to make a big deal out of a few roving bands of spawn. Blight or no Blight, the numbers of darkspawn reported were a serious security problem for the country and needed to be dealt with, because even without an Archdemon, an unguided horde of that size can still do considerable harm to the land and it's people.



And the cutscene, with Loghain's reaction to the beacon being lit, tells me he was both surprised and quite annoyed at it being done. He said his men were stationed in the tower, which tells me they were there pretty much to prevent it from being lit. The darkspawn presence I also found curious. I think his men deliberately abaondoned it.



Loghain was sloppy. There are ways he could have gotten rid of his enemies or dealt with the king without costing so many lives and the strength of his country.

[tallon1982]

I think it was Loghain's plan too just from what I picked up from the conversations. The plan would have worked considering they were suppose to bottleneck the darkspawn and Loghain's army was suppose to come around from behind to cut off retreat. It would have been a slaughter if executed properly.



On my first play through I suspected something wrong with Loghain after the meeting considering the look on his face after the meeting ends. He had every intention of abandoning Calian and flat out refused to wait on the backup from Orlais due to his intense hatred of them. When, if you are a female pc romancing Alistair, you speak to Anora about the idea of marrying Alistair she even mentions Calian's cheating. There's even bitterness between Maric and Loghain in the novels too. If you ask me he's pretty much equal to Howe.

[Sarethus]

RaidenIshii wrote...

If everyone remembers when Connor is possessed at during Redcliffe, if you mention that you can go to the mage tower to get help for connnor, doesn't someone there(alistair) say that it only takes a days travel from the circle tower to redcliffe?

If you go by boat, yes. For some reason our player party goes by land all the time...

[SeanMurphy2]

I think Loghain was worried they did not have enough numbers and wanted to postpone the battle.



Cailan was eager to fight. He may have wanted an agressive plan where he is on the frontlines with the Grey Wardens.

[Axterix]

0mar wrote...

IMO, Loghain let everyone on that the plan was a success, but it's pretty clear that he intended to walk away before he even arrived at Ostagar. The poisoning of Arl Eamon and the death of the Couslands prove that much. Those happened well before Ostagar took place and were instigated by Loghain's orders.

Actually, the poisoning of Aemon wouldn't prove that.  And the poisoning would most likely have to take place after Ostagar, not before.

A mage PC would go pretty much directly with Duncan to Ostagar.  Jowan would have to flee for a bit, be caught by templars, delivered to Loghain, make the deal, be given poisons, and travel back to the Redcliffe to begin teaching the son and do the poisoning.  At some point, Loghain would have had to have gotten a request for a mage tutor as well, a request most likely sent to Denerim, not Ostagar, though it is quite possible that Loghain got the request prior to setting out, but given that the army had been in the field for a bit...

The delivered to Loghain bit would seem to imply that Jowan was captured somewhere near where Loghain was traveling, otherwise, the Templars would head straight back to the tower.  I rather doubt Jowan would flee into a blight.  More logical that he gets caught in the capital or else, after having been caught, his captors and he ran across the army retreating from Ostagar.

Given that, it makes more sense that the player was unconcious recovering from the wounds received at the battle for a bit.  And it is during that time that Loghain was able to get his hands on Jowan and strike the deal.  Which would mean Aemon was poisoned after the battle, not before.

And as to the Couslands, well, who knows what sort of dirty tricks Howe had up his sleeves?  Might well have had deals arranged that he felt would get him out of it.  Or forged documents and false testimony alleging betrayal by the Couslands.  Nothing though directly ties Loghain to it.

[Axterix]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think Loghain was worried they did not have enough numbers and wanted to postpone the battle.

Cailan was eager to fight. He may have wanted an agressive plan where he is on the frontlines with the Grey Wardens.

Yup, he did.  He wanted to wait for Aemon's forces.  Cailan though wanted the fight now, so brought up waiting for the Orlesians, which he knew would silence Loghain.

[jon 45]

Axterix wrote...

Actually, the poisoning of Aemon wouldn't prove that.  And the poisoning would most likely have to take place after Ostagar, not before.

Did you even read the thread? It is established in the game that Jowan poisoned Eamon before Ostagar.

Yes, that means that the game's timeline is more than a little wonky, but it also means that Loghain commited actions before the battle that would have gotten him executed if Cailan had survived.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Axterix wrote...
Actually, the poisoning of Aemon wouldn't prove that.  And the poisoning would most likely have to take place after Ostagar, not before.

How many times must we repeat that DAVID GAIDER confirmed Loghain was setting things into motion long before Ostagar.

[Xandurpein]

jon 45 wrote...

Axterix wrote...

Actually, the poisoning of Aemon wouldn't prove that.  And the poisoning would most likely have to take place after Ostagar, not before.

Did you even read the thread? It is established in the game that Jowan poisoned Eamon before Ostagar.

Yes, that means that the game's timeline is more than a little wonky, but it also means that Loghain commited actions before the battle that would have gotten him executed if Cailan had survived.

This is only true if he had reason believe that his connection to Arl Eamon's poisoning would be exposed.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Axterix wrote...
Actually, the poisoning of Aemon wouldn't prove that.  And the poisoning would most likely have to take place after Ostagar, not before.

How many times must we repeat that DAVID GAIDER confirmed Loghain was setting things into motion long before Ostagar.

Yes, but unless you can provide more details it still leaves open what exactly he was setting in motion. Until I see other evidence it's still reasonable to assume he was hedging his bets, trying to talk Cailen out of his ouvertures to Orlais, and keeping the option to kill him if Cailen cannot be talked out of his "treason" (in Loghains mind).

I believe that Loghain in his own mind was the one who had stop a traitor (Cailen) from selling out the country to Orlais. He probably in his paranoia about Orlais thought it was more or less his duty to stop Cailen.

[KariTR]

Sialater wrote...

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as an Orlesian organization. The plan was to get rid of the GWs first and foremost. He tried to talk the king out of staying with them in the fight and objected when the PC and Alistair are put forward to light the beacon.

He wrote the king off when the glory mad idiot stayed with his heroes. He shouldn't have, but he did. Everything was done to clear Ferelden of Orlesian influence, real or imagined.

That doesnt explain the slaughter of the Couslands. You may think that was all done by Howe, but the power system in Ferelden is King, then Teyrn, then Arl, then Bann. As Loghain and Bryce are the only Teyrns in the country it stands to reason one or the other would act as regent should the Theirin line die out. Loghain had more to gain with the Couslands gone, it guaranteed him head of state. 

The objection to the GWs going to the Tower was as someone else mentioned. Loghain knew that if anyone was likely to get passed the Darkspawn and light the beacon it would be they, thus his treachery would be exposed.
If I may quote the U.S. Supreme Court ""circumstantial evidence is intrinsically no different from testimonial [direct] evidence".  In DA:O all the circumstantial evidence points to Loghain being guilty, it cannot be dismissed.

A point about Wynne. In conversations with your PC, she admits she was not at the frontline (the mages arent newbs ) and her stance could be influenced, at least in part,  by the fact that ultimately the battle was lost. We also know that our heros were stymied in their efforts to reach the beacon and that delay could also account for the impression the battle was lost. Had they reached it sooner and had Loghain flanked the enemy as planned, Ostagar could very well have gone the other way completely.

Modifié par KariTR, 03 janvier 2010 - 10:21 .

[jon 45]

Xandurpein wrote...

Yes, but unless you can provide more details it still leaves open what exactly he was setting in motion. Until I see other evidence it's still reasonable to assume he was hedging his bets, trying to talk Cailen out of his ouvertures to Orlais, and keeping the option to kill him if Cailen cannot be talked out of his "treason" (in Loghains mind).

I believe that Loghain in his own mind was the one who had stop a traitor (Cailen) from selling out the country to Orlais. He probably in his paranoia about Orlais thought it was more or less his duty to stop Cailen.

Loghain's motivation is clear. He is paranoid to the point of insanity.

The poisoning of Eamon would have come out as Loghain himself recommended Jowan to Isolde. Unless he planned to have her murdered, too, but that is never alluded to. Having the king's favourite uncle killed in such an open manner will generally get you executed for treason in a quasi-medieval society like Ferelden, particularly if you and the king haven't been getting along for a while (which clearly was the case with Loghain and Cailan).

Loghain is a supremely arrogant character, utterly convinced that Loghain always knows best. Cailan was apparently moving away from agreeing to everything his father in law suggested, so Loghain had to act.

Because in Loghain's mind, everyone who disagrees with him is completely wrong. And probably in cahoots with Orlais to boot.

Loghain is a very good liar and manipulator, he even manages to convince himself of some preposterous things (by the time of the Landsmeet he basically believes the PC to be an Orlesian agent), so everything he says is to be taken with a few pinches of salt. His warning Cailan from staying away from the front lines accomplishes the exact opposite, as he knows very well, just as Cailan invoking the possibility of Orlesian reinforcements shuts Loghain up promptly. These two know each other fairly well and know how to push the other's buttons. Cailan's mistake was not to realize that Loghain had gone over the edge.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
Unless you are able to supply evidence such as either a reliable eye witness in the game, or some sort of belivable force ratio derieved from either in game, or one of the developers. I cannot possibly see how you can  state this as an absolute truth. That it's your opinion is obvious, but what is your proof.

The only eye witness i have found in the game, apart from Loghain himself, and he is talking in his own defence, is Wynne and as far as I know she agrees that the battle WAS lost. So while I don't think this is evidence to prove once and for all that the Battle was lost when the fire was lit, I don't see how you can say for certain that it wasn't.

The fact that Loghain may have been plotting before Ostargard really doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Loghain may have been plotting who knows what, but if the Darkspawn horde was still too big, it was too big.

Trying to settle a debate by stating your opinion as an absolute truth, without supporting evidence is just trolling.

Pretty much anyone with experience except Loghain in-game thinks the battle was winnable (even when heavily outnumbered) and that the retreat wass the wrong thing to do.
Cailan, Duncan, the officers in the camp - all think the battle is winnable.
Ser Cuathrien's reaction to Loghains retreat decision tells just as much.

As far as the forces go - half is a resonable assumption. You need enough forces for the flanking manouver to hit hard and you need the "bait" force to be big enough to hold it's own long enough and to push from it's side once the flanking start. The cutscenes show that both forces are quite large, and Loghains force seems to consist mostly of heavy infantry (which is a logical choice for a devastating flanking action).

Let's not forget that Lgohain is a delusional man in denail.

IIRC, neither Cailan nor Loghain believed at the time that it was a
true Blight. So it is feasable to assume that neither had a clue that
the main horde would be so rassafrassin' huge.

The force that attacked Ostagar was not the main horde.
The main horde was larger.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:08 .

[Sabriana]

I can find nothing anywhere that says definitely that the horde at Ostagar was not the main horde. They come up from the Wilds, and spread over the map. I see no other starting point anywhere but the Korcari Wilds. Why should the darkspawn hold back their main powerforce at Ostagar? That wouldn't really make any sense.

Even Alistair hints at the fact that the main horde is hidden in the Wilds, per the conversation with Jory after finding the wounded scout.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
Yes, but unless you can provide more details it still leaves open what exactly he was setting in motion. Until I see other evidence it's still reasonable to assume he was hedging his bets, trying to talk Cailen out of his ouvertures to Orlais, and keeping the option to kill him if Cailen cannot be talked out of his "treason" (in Loghains mind)

To be more specific, David confirmed the poisoning of Arl Eamon was arrangerd BEFORE Ostagar.

[Herr Uhl]

Sabriana wrote...

I can find nothing anywhere that says definitely that the horde at Ostagar was not the main horde. They come up from the Wilds, and spread over the map. I see no other starting point anywhere but the Korcari Wilds. Why should the darkspawn hold back their main powerforce at Ostagar? That wouldn't really make any sense.
Even Alistair hints at the fact that the main horde is hidden in the Wilds, per the conversation with Jory after finding the wounded scout.

The main horde that had surfaced thus far. I think the real main horde came with the archdemon, the nice guys seen by Bownammar.