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[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...

I can find nothing anywhere that says definitely that the horde at Ostagar was not the main horde. They come up from the Wilds, and spread over the map. I see no other starting point anywhere but the Korcari Wilds. Why should the darkspawn hold back their main powerforce at Ostagar? That wouldn't really make any sense.
Even Alistair hints at the fact that the main horde is hidden in the Wilds, per the conversation with Jory after finding the wounded scout.

IIRC, at Ostagar they were outnumbered by a 2 to 1 (or was it 4 to 1?) ratio. The officer at the camp thinks that's still winnable.

Why it wasn't the main horde? Because we can see the main horde in the deep roads and the main horde doens' move out without the archdemon.

[Sabriana]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
stuff about the horde

The main horde that had surfaced thus far. I think the real main horde came with the archdemon, the nice guys seen by Bownammar.

Well, to me it seemed that the horde at Ostagar was far larger than the horde at Bownammar. I really felt the troops in the Deep Roads were there to bolster the main horde. Just because the archdemon was with them doesn't automatically make it so. The archdemon is in telepathic connection with all the darkspawn, and as far as I can see, they are spreading from the wilds upward.

Given the fact that the dwarven kingdom (or former kingdom) is spread out underground, it could be that Bownammar is somehow underneath the Korcari wilds, or close to it. Didn't the Shaper say that the kingdom was as large beneath as the imperium was above? Could be, you know.
I'm not arguing the possibility of either, but it is really never made clear what the main horde was, or where they were, or if they actually are the same horde, surging forth from their underground HQ, so to speak.

If anyone knows for sure, I'd be interested to hear about it.

[robertthebard]

Sabriana wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
stuff about the horde

The main horde that had surfaced thus far. I think the real main horde came with the archdemon, the nice guys seen by Bownammar.

Well, to me it seemed that the horde at Ostagar was far larger than the horde at Bownammar. I really felt the troops in the Deep Roads were there to bolster the main horde. Just because the archdemon was with them doesn't automatically make it so. The archdemon is in telepathic connection with all the darkspawn, and as far as I can see, they are spreading from the wilds upward.

Given the fact that the dwarven kingdom (or former kingdom) is spread out underground, it could be that Bownammar is somehow underneath the Korcari wilds, or close to it. Didn't the Shaper say that the kingdom was as large beneath as the imperium was above? Could be, you know.
I'm not arguing the possibility of either, but it is really never made clear what the main horde was, or where they were, or if they actually are the same horde, surging forth from their underground HQ, so to speak.

If anyone knows for sure, I'd be interested to hear about it.

The Shaper does indeed say that.  We also know, from Flemeth and Morrigan, that the darkspawn did indeed break through in the Wilds.  So it's possible.  We don't really have any idea where we are under the main map when we're traveling the Deep Roads.  I see no reason to doubt that the Horde at Ostagar wasn't the main horde, even if all it's numbers aren't represented at the battle.  The Archdemon could have been holding troops in reserve, just as Loghain's plan called for.  It would have surely sucked to be the hammer in that case, as as soon as you're committed the Archdemon could have swung his own hammer onto your reserve troops.

The path of the Blight is clear on the main map, however.  That it is moving above ground can be evidenced by the Nobles in the Gnawed Noble, who have lost their holdings to the Blight.  If it was simply moving underground, then they would have lost nothing, as the darkspawn move underground all the time, ask the dwarves about that, without causing loss to the surface.

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think anyone could predict how large the darkspawn army would be. They may have thought it would be an easier battle and been overly complacent.

Loghain gives two good pieces of advice. They need to wait for Arl Eamon's troops. And Cailan should not be on the frontlines.

Obviously Loghain is a villain. But I still think it would be risky to charge the rest of the Ferelden army into a dark valley. There is no easy retreat and he does not know if more darkspawn will come from behind. What if the King dies anyway and the army suffers even heavier losses?

I think it would be a hard decision for most commanders. If the battle turns out badly, then you risk losing the whole army which leaves the country undefended. And at that stage most people don't know that it is a true Blight that will spread into Ferelden. So they don't realise how important the Ostager battle is.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 03 janvier 2010 - 03:04 .

[robertthebard]

Loghain never suggests waiting for Eamon's troops. It can even be argued that he knows they aren't coming, since their commader is poisoned, and presumed dead by the time the PC arrives at Ostagar. Loghain knows this, and knows they aren't coming, just as he knows Orlesian forces aren't coming, as he had them turned back at the border.

[Lotion Soronarr]

If you talk to people at camp and listen, you will see that scouts report the horde numbers.

It is said it outnumbered the army 2 to 1.



Can't be the main horde.

[Sabriana]

@ Robert:

Indeed. I also remember when trying to go to the Deep Road to find Lord Dace, the captain of the guard there says that they've seen surprisingly little of the darkspawn lately, and goes on pondering why that could be so.

Love that line of the Dead Legion commander: "Your nightmare is my everyday." Gave me goosebumps it did.

@ Sean:

Indeed again. Cailan had the choice to wait for Eamon's forces, and not only Loghain, but also Duncan says so. Cailan throwing the Orleasian forces into Loghain's face sounded like bait to me, sadly, Cailan didn't know how epic Loghain's paranoia already was.

My sulky, surly and overall po'd noble even called Cailan an idiot to Duncan's face, and after a whole lot of hemming, hawing, and reprimanding, Duncan more or less agrees with her.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you talk to people at camp and listen, you will see that scouts report the horde numbers.
It is said it outnumbered the army 2 to 1.

Can't be the main horde.

Why not?  Since they continue to march from there on Ferelden after routing the army at Ostagar.  As I said in my earlier post, not having all the soldiers available visible is a sound strategy, since that is the very strategy that Loghain is supposed to use to defeat this incursion.  The problem here isn't whether or not it's the full strength of the darkspawn army, it's obvious it's not.  Just how close to the main bulk of the horde did scouts get?  Is there a different horde outside of Lothering?  Perhaps you think that a different horde is camped outside of Redcliffe too, instead of a feint thrown to draw all of Ferelden's forces there while the main force continues on to Denerim?  The Archdemon isn't a mindless brute, despite how the end fight ends up.

It's made clear that the darkspawn broke through in the Wilds.  Since this is the case, it makes sense that the bulk of the horde that is marching on Ferelden would be at the place we know they are coming from.  Lack of the leader does not mean it's not the main horde, and nothing in game leads me to believe that the main horde broke out anywhere else.  The Archdemon simply waited until the forces were commited to the wrong place to show itself.  It's even clearly stated that the force that attacks Redcliffe broke off from the main horde, what would be called a feint.  Fake an attack at one point, to draw the defenders there, Redcliffe, and then attack your true target while they are drawn off, Denerim.  Fairly sound military strategy.

[CREinstein]

I am the prosecutor in this case, I charge Loghain with Regicide!



My evidence is as follows.



1) A possible heir to the royal family is killed by Howe, Howe is then rewarded by gaining not one, but to titles.



2) Loghains men captures Jowan and a Templar Knight (hurry and obtain the name for me aide!), the Templar will testify that this mage was set free by the party who captured him.



3) Jowan says Loghain, who presumably was traveling to Ostagar, ordered the death of Eamon, who has, albiet a weaker one than Alister, a legitimate claim on the throne. Since Jowan did indeed flee to the south first and was near Redcliff this series of events is in time sequence to happen PRIOR to the battle at Ostagar.



4) The Battle of Ostagar happened after the arrival by the warden candidate, and after the warden candidate fought several skirmishes with darkspawn, obtained blood samples of them, and found treaties the Grey Wardens had stored in an abandoned fort. Additionally said wardens were further delayed by a side trip to meet a witch claiming to be "The Flemeth". While it is impossible that she is said witch, and since she is dead we cannot verify her claim or not, we do know from enough testimony that the warden did indeed travel to this location first, then returned to Ostagar.



Therefore we can conclude the battle happened AFTER the posioning of the Arl, and of the death of another Heir possible.



5) We further have to examine the evidence that a mage was instructed prior to the battle to tell the circle of mages of the defeat of the king, and to spread a false story pertaining to the death of the king.



6) A certain noble was captured for trying to find his friend, the son of his nursemaid, who was in Loghains forces, when the retreat was sounded. While this information is second hand, it is being treated as a deathbed confession, thanks to our King Alistar, and therefore is valid in claim. Other soldiers are also testifying as to the time of retreat and that the battle was met, but not necessarily lost.



7) Loghain also did something to try to cover his tracks, he blamed the Grey Wardens DIRECTLY for the death of the King, and outlawed them. The last time they were outlawed in Ferelden they did attempt to kill a King, but they had no such purpose in doing so here. Since his own soldiers, and indeed Sir Loghain himself admit the darkspawn were on the battlefeild, did overwhelm the kings forces, this means that Loghain would have no means to know of how the king died directly, and this means he contrived the reasoning to ban the Grey Wardens.



8) Loghains men were responsible for securing one tower in Ostagar, no where else were his men specifically assigned. It is unusual therefore that this tower was the one piece of infrastructure that came under direct darkspawn attack in the upper reaches. There is no direct proof of collusion, but with all other aspects of this case we must present this portion as suspicious to say the least.



9) One must ask, what is the purpose of selling elves to Tevinter? Was it so any elves who were in the kings Retinue, or in the army's retinue could be silenced, via shipping them out? The fact remains he also kept all the funds generated by this scheme, and reduced the amount of servants available to do work in our fair city, and for what? I say there is a cover up here as well!



10) The final piece of evidence comes just before the Battle of Ostagar, where a patrol was ambushed in full just outside the structure itself. One man survived the attack, and yet it seems his injuries were not as deep or bad as he first suggested, indeed upon examination there were few things to even mar his skin, let alone make him have to crawl as if dying. Was this man a messenger to the Darkspawn? Was he a conspirator with Loghain? The man left running from the Grey Wardens, if not caught at the gates and questioned by the Kings men we would not know of his extremely light injuries, which allowed him to run at full speed. This is most unusual, and the timing is beyond questionable.





I am done with my case, if the defense feels they have a defense they may now try their pitiful best, I suspect they will try to get by with a mental incompetence effort, this from what is supposed to be the greatest military mind in the world, hah! Do not be persuaded to accept such an argument my jury, your honor, and your kingship.

[Sabriana]

CREinstein wrote...

a whole lot of funny stuff.

Rofl. I know you're serious, but I've a vivid imagination. I pictured you in a court with all the pomp of an official prosecutor, and it made me laugh.

You bring up good and valid points, though. Nobody is really saying that Loghain is as innocent as a new-born babe, but some are questioning whether everything that is laid on his doorstep is really all his doing. It's so easy to blame the obvious villain.

However, Loghain is certainly a terrible, murdering, slavering bastard, but to just say that he is definitely to blame singularly for everything that went wrong is jumping to conclusions and riding on assumptions. That's why everything gets analysed, see

[CREinstein]

Madam this court hearing is official! Since the with Morigan saved Ferelden with her rite, we must now decide the fate of the Warden Loghain and his crimes! The audience will be silent!!! Silent I say!

[Guess1]

Saying the king was responsible for his own death because he agreed to Loghain's battle plan is nonsense. Generals exist to give military advice, not betray kings.

[Sabriana]

CREinstein wrote...

Madam this court hearing is official! Since the with Morigan saved Ferelden with her rite, we must now decide the fate of the Warden Loghain and his crimes! The audience will be silent!!! Silent I say!

Sir, with all due respect: You stop that, or I'm gonna start charging you for the good German beer you have me spewing about. Sir.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

I will speak for the defendant, although he doesn't really need one if the evidence given by the esteemed gentlemen prosecuting is all that he can must.

[quote]CREinstein wrote...
1) A possible heir to the royal family is killed by Howe, Howe is then rewarded by gaining not one, but to titles.
[/quote]
Which possible heir to the throne are you referring to? There is only one known heir to the throne, that being the royal bar steward Alistair (You are talking about the human noble origin I imagine, sorry but none of them were heir apparent to the throne)


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
2) Loghains men captures Jowan and a Templar Knight (hurry and obtain the name for me aide!), the Templar will testify that this mage was set free by the party who captured him. [/quote]
Yes, why not show us this Templar Knight and this alleged Mage named Jowan? Do you have evidence to support this claim other than the word of a traitorous warden? (always find it funny that Warden didn't think to ensure both Jowan and the Knight were kept alive so they could present the evidence) . Oh they aren't alive? So.. again, more lies from the Wardens.

[quote]CREinstein wrote...
3) Jowan says Loghain, who presumably was traveling to Ostagar, ordered the death of Eamon, who has, albiet a weaker one than Alister, a legitimate claim on the throne. Since Jowan did indeed flee to the south first and was near Redcliff this series of events is in time sequence to happen PRIOR to the battle at Ostagar. [/quote]
Again I refer the honorable gentleman to my previous statement with regards his first post. Where is this alleged evidence?


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
4) The Battle of Ostagar happened after the arrival by the warden candidate, and after the warden candidate fought several skirmishes with darkspawn, obtained blood samples of them, and found treaties the Grey Wardens had stored in an abandoned fort. Additionally said wardens were further delayed by a side trip to meet a witch claiming to be "The Flemeth". While it is impossible that she is said witch, and since she is dead we cannot verify her claim or not, we do know from enough testimony that the warden did indeed travel to this location first, then returned to Ostagar.

Therefore we can conclude the battle happened AFTER the posioning of the Arl, and of the death of another Heir possible. [/quote]
The poisoning of an Arl by a Blood Mage, yes, yes, a very touching statement, but as there is no evidence to point this to my honorable Teyrn Loghain the defendant, none of this bears any credibility to the charges brought against him.

[quote]CREinstein wrote...
5) We further have to examine the evidence that a mage was instructed prior to the battle to tell the circle of mages of the defeat of the king, and to spread a false story pertaining to the death of the king. [/quote]
Again where is your evidence to state this? Where is this mage you speak of to confirm this? (I actually believe Uldred was told AFTER the battle, couldn't have been told beforehand really there was no time)


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
6) A certain noble was captured for trying to find his friend, the son of his nursemaid, who was in Loghains forces, when the retreat was sounded. While this information is second hand, it is being treated as a deathbed confession, thanks to our King Alistar, and therefore is valid in claim. Other soldiers are also testifying as to the time of retreat and that the battle was met, but not necessarily lost. [/quote]
Honestly the words of Foot Soldiers are now being used to determine if a battle wasn't lost in comparison to our great General whom saw the Orlesians out of our country and has proven himself a great tactician. Also last I checked, my client's daughter was Queen of Ferelden, not that fool whom doesn't even want to be King. Honestly, whatever next, some Orlesian Bard stating that she had visions to help the Wardens conquer the blight? (bit of tongue in cheek with the last comment hehe)


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
7) Loghain also did something to try to cover his tracks, he blamed the Grey Wardens DIRECTLY for the death of the King, and outlawed them. The last time they were outlawed in Ferelden they did attempt to kill a King, but they had no such purpose in doing so here. Since his own soldiers, and indeed Sir Loghain himself admit the darkspawn were on the battlefeild, did overwhelm the kings forces, this means that Loghain would have no means to know of how the king died directly, and this means he contrived the reasoning to ban the Grey Wardens. [/quote]
Ahh yes, you mean those Wardens that resorted to Blood Magic, yes I am quite sure the Chantry would love to know how the Wardens flout the laws set, I really don't think I need to state anymore reasons as to why label the Wardens with such charges as my client did so. I wouldn't even be surprised if the current Warden was a blood mage trying to trick everyone into believing they are doing good. (Really wouldn't be a good idea bringing soldiers peak into this)


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
8) Loghains men were responsible for securing one tower in Ostagar, no where else were his men specifically assigned. It is unusual therefore that this tower was the one piece of infrastructure that came under direct darkspawn attack in the upper reaches. There is no direct proof of collusion, but with all other aspects of this case we must present this portion as suspicious to say the least. [/quote]
Are you not forgetting that all of the soldiers are my clients men? Is he not the General of the armies of Ferelden, so such comments are pointless. Also it would be rather silly to leave such a location open for attack, his men found nothing in the lower chambers and thus it was not deemed a threat. It is common knowledge however how the Darkspawn generally come up from beneath the ground, so I would imagine that is what happened. The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

[quote]CREinstein wrote...
9) One must ask, what is the purpose of selling elves to Tevinter? Was it so any elves who were in the kings Retinue, or in the army's retinue could be silenced, via shipping them out? The fact remains he also kept all the funds generated by this scheme, and reduced the amount of servants available to do work in our fair city, and for what? I say there is a cover up here as well! [/quote]
It has been known throughout the history of Thedas that if there was indeed a Blight then the land would be left ripe for other territories to take advantage and attack, considering our past history with the Orlesians and their attempts to reclaim the lands, the army needed funding to ensure we could see off both the Blight and any attempt by the Orlesians. In times of war, sacrifices have to be made. (meh I could easily go into the whole 'Loghain' speech on this matter, yes it is a bit sick, but its true)


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
10) The final piece of evidence comes just before the Battle of Ostagar, where a patrol was ambushed in full just outside the structure itself. One man survived the attack, and yet it seems his injuries were not as deep or bad as he first suggested, indeed upon examination there were few things to even mar his skin, let alone make him have to crawl as if dying. Was this man a messenger to the Darkspawn? Was he a conspirator with Loghain? The man left running from the Grey Wardens, if not caught at the gates and questioned by the Kings men we would not know of his extremely light injuries, which allowed him to run at full speed. This is most unusual, and the timing is beyond questionable. [/quote]

I believe one of your own people can answer that, can he not? Also it would appear you have not been informed of all the scouting parties that were sent out, the Ash warriors with their mabari and several other units were sent out to scout for Darkspawn. Didn't one of the wardens bandage the fellow up. Also such false allegations should be pushed aside considering once again you have no evidence to confirm such nonsense.


[quote]CREinstein wrote...
I am done with my case, if the defense feels they have a defense they may now try their pitiful best, I suspect they will try to get by with a mental incompetence effort, this from what is supposed to be the greatest military mind in the world, hah! Do not be persuaded to accept such an argument my jury, your honor, and your kingship. [/quote]

I am done as well, the honorable gentleman has provided no real evidence against my client, Teyrn Loghain, the only thing you were correct is with reference to mental incompetence but I place that squarely at the feet of the honorable gentleman whom has given no real evidence to support his accusations and such this case should be dismissed forthwith. (No offence intended, just figured would poke back with a bit of fun )

[RSTORM50]

robertthebard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you talk to people at camp and listen, you will see that scouts report the horde numbers.
It is said it outnumbered the army 2 to 1.

Can't be the main horde.

Why not?  Since they continue to march from there on Ferelden after routing the army at Ostagar.  As I said in my earlier post, not having all the soldiers available visible is a sound strategy, since that is the very strategy that Loghain is supposed to use to defeat this incursion.  The problem here isn't whether or not it's the full strength of the darkspawn army, it's obvious it's not.  Just how close to the main bulk of the horde did scouts get?  Is there a different horde outside of Lothering?  Perhaps you think that a different horde is camped outside of Redcliffe too, instead of a feint thrown to draw all of Ferelden's forces there while the main force continues on to Denerim?  The Archdemon isn't a mindless brute, despite how the end fight ends up.

It's made clear that the darkspawn broke through in the Wilds.  Since this is the case, it makes sense that the bulk of the horde that is marching on Ferelden would be at the place we know they are coming from.  Lack of the leader does not mean it's not the main horde, and nothing in game leads me to believe that the main horde broke out anywhere else.  The Archdemon simply waited until the forces were commited to the wrong place to show itself.  It's even clearly stated that the force that attacks Redcliffe broke off from the main horde, what would be called a feint.  Fake an attack at one point, to draw the defenders there, Redcliffe, and then attack your true target while they are drawn off, Denerim.  Fairly sound military strategy.

There were three battles before Ostagar, and the horde gets larger after each one. I've never talked to a lot of people at Ostagar but Duncan does allude to this and goes on to say the Darkspawn looks to outnumber them by then. It may have been the largest force on the surface at that time, but as we find at the Dead Trenches a larger horde with the Archdemon begins its march from there.

When asked why we thought the main horde was attacking at Redcliffe, Riordan says the line is so wide they thought it was. So yes, the attack at Redcliffe was a feint which does work as it does draw the Ferelden armies while the Archdemon, the two Generals and the rest of the horde head off to Denerim for the main attack. We never find out whether there were generals at Ostagar but i'd guess there was one present. (If so, it would be the one that signals the start of the attack. And we have no idea how many generals they have total, but i'd guess some survived as I suspect the stronger darkspawn in the epilogues are the generals.) 

Once you're at Denerim, Ohgren says you are outnumbered 3-1, and this is with all the forces Ferelden is able to muster. That leads me to believe the forces at Ostagar were but an advance force while the main horde awaits in the Deep Roads.

[CREinstein]

Insolence! One is not to spew any good lager around! Especially no imports, for those are sacred brews worthy only to the enlightened (age 21 or higher), clearly you must be an infidel to spew imported beer! Guards, seize that woman! FOR FERELDEN AND IMPORTED BEERS!

[CREinstein]

That is your defense? Oh that is a paltry defense indeed, you however have wit, and as a Warden I invoke the right upon you, we must fill our ranks including with those who have strong wit. No worries, the death rate of the entire process is roughly 65%, you have a fair chance of even surviving defense council!

[robertthebard]

RSTORM50 wrote...

There were three battles before Ostagar, and the horde gets larger after each one. I've never talked to a lot of people at Ostagar but Duncan does allude to this and goes on to say the Darkspawn looks to outnumber them by then. It may have been the largest force on the surface at that time, but as we find at the Dead Trenches a larger horde with the Archdemon begins its march from there.

When asked why we thought the main horde was attacking at Redcliffe, Riordan says the line is so wide they thought it was. So yes, the attack at Redcliffe was a feint which does work as it does draw the Ferelden armies while the Archdemon, the two Generals and the rest of the horde head off to Denerim for the main attack. We never find out whether there were generals at Ostagar but i'd guess there was one present. (If so, it would be the one that signals the start of the attack. And we have no idea how many generals they have total, but i'd guess some survived as I suspect the stronger darkspawn in the epilogues are the generals.) 

Once you're at Denerim, Ohgren says you are outnumbered 3-1, and this is with all the forces Ferelden is able to muster. That leads me to believe the forces at Ostagar were but an advance force while the main horde awaits in the Deep Roads.

Which serves to prove that the bulk of the horde must indeed be close, if after three losses they still get greater numbers than the previous fight.  I doubt seriously that every darkspawn in Thedas was present at Denerim, not counting dead ones, of course.  There are likely to be plenty of them still in the Deep Roads.  However, more to my point about there being no reason it couldn't be the main horde, the blight "splooge" as somebody puts it, spreads from Ostagar northward.  Continuing to push the battle lines from that battle onward into Ferelden.  At Flemeth's hut, we learn that they did indeed break through in Wilds, and that pushing deeper in would put you closer to the point where they are the most concentrated.  Assuming they intend to take over, it would make sense to leave soldiers to hold "occupied" lands.  Granted this isn't an occupation army, but a devastation army, wipe out everything on the way, taking prisoners only for "conversion"(yech), the same strategy would still hold.  If one could march out from The Dead Trenches, where would one come out?

[Sabriana]

@ Ulrich and Einstein



I'm going to stop reading your stuff until my beer's gone. Dayum, but this stuff is hilarious.

By the way, Sir Prosecuter, with all due respect, The beer isn't imported, it comes from a town very close to mine. Ah, lovely Bitburg.



On another note:

About it being the main force, yes, Duncan does indeed state that the darkspawn forces increase with each attack. Which leads to the assumption that they are coming up from somewhere in the wilds. Who knows what the scouts were able to find out, and seeing all those dead bodies, plus scouting units that didn't return before the battle (Fergus' for example) makes it all a bit ambiguous.

Duncan also raises the question about the archdemon, and seems to think he's in the general vicinity. Given that GWs can sense the archdemons, that seems to indicate that the major force of the darkspawn is indeed close. Both Cailan and Loghain seem to wave this concern aside though, and it really seems that neither one believes that this is a true Blight.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Why not?  Since they continue to march from there on Ferelden after routing the army at Ostagar.  As I said in my earlier post, not having all the soldiers available visible is a sound strategy, since that is the very strategy that Loghain is supposed to use to defeat this incursion.  The problem here isn't whether or not it's the full strength of the darkspawn army, it's obvious it's not.  Just how close to the main bulk of the horde did scouts get?  Is there a different horde outside of Lothering?  Perhaps you think that a different horde is camped outside of Redcliffe too, instead of a feint thrown to draw all of Ferelden's forces there while the main force continues on to Denerim?  The Archdemon isn't a mindless brute, despite how the end fight ends up.

I doubt the horde could hide it's numbers. The blight isn't subtle and the army had a lot of scouts out.
Ostagar was very defensible and if you're protected by fortification AND have a army flanking your attacker, you can take on a army that's much greater in numbers. 2 on 1 is NOTHING in that situation, 4 on 1 is very much winnable. History proved as much.
There were times where 10 to 1 odds weren't enough for the attackers.

In the cutscene in the Deep Roads we see hte Archdemon leading a huge horde. Since the REALl attack on Ferelden didn't start untill then (at least a year in game-time passes till Landsmet), I'ts safe to assume that this is the real horde.

[RubiconA7]

m14567 wrote...

I think it is pretty obvious Loghain had no intention of supporting the King at Ostagar. The claim that he realized the battle was lost and so he sounded the retreat is ridiculous. If he could see the battle then why did he need the tower to signal when to charge? Even Loghain's second in command seemed startled by the order to retreat. Loghain also goes on to say the Grey Wardens betrayed the King when no such betrayal took place. Loghain's excuses simply do not hold water.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Why not?  Since they continue to march from there on Ferelden after routing the army at Ostagar.  As I said in my earlier post, not having all the soldiers available visible is a sound strategy, since that is the very strategy that Loghain is supposed to use to defeat this incursion.  The problem here isn't whether or not it's the full strength of the darkspawn army, it's obvious it's not.  Just how close to the main bulk of the horde did scouts get?  Is there a different horde outside of Lothering?  Perhaps you think that a different horde is camped outside of Redcliffe too, instead of a feint thrown to draw all of Ferelden's forces there while the main force continues on to Denerim?  The Archdemon isn't a mindless brute, despite how the end fight ends up.

I doubt the horde could hide it's numbers. The blight isn't subtle and the army had a lot of scouts out.
Ostagar was very defensible and if you're protected by fortification AND have a army flanking your attacker, you can take on a army that's much greater in numbers. 2 on 1 is NOTHING in that situation, 4 on 1 is very much winnable. History proved as much.
There were times where 10 to 1 odds weren't enough for the attackers.

In the cutscene in the Deep Roads we see hte Archdemon leading a huge horde. Since the REALl attack on Ferelden didn't start untill then (at least a year in game-time passes till Landsmet), I'ts safe to assume that this is the real horde.

Here's the problem with your logic:  In my current game, I'm doing Orzammar now, and all I've done up to this point is the elves, and saving Eamon.  When I get to The Dead Trenches, I'm going to get the same cutscene, even though it's months before I actually go to Denerim for the Landsmeet.  Yet the Blight will continue to grow on the surface.  It's not like the darkspawn stop reproducing just because there's a Blight.  This could well be the second, or third "wave" of darkspawn coming out.  However, your explanation fails to explain why the horde attacking Ostagar continues to grow.