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[Ulicus]

Sialater wrote...

None of that indicates he didn't do exactly what I said, that it was a trap for the Grey Wardens and Cailan was a bystander.

I don't believe that Loghain actively plotted to take out the Grey Wardens initially, mainly because of the respect he shows to begin with (especially if the main character is a woman: "Don't let anyone tell you that you don't belong. The first Grey Warden Maric brought to Ferelden was a woman. Best warrior I've ever seen") and also because of this little nugget you can get out of him if you converse at the Ostagar camp:

Loghain: Nevertheless, the fate of your order rests in [Cailan's] hands. Remember that.

Why say it at all unless it was what he truly believed? It's not like he's thinking, "Well, some Grey Wardens may survive my cunning trap, so I'll tell their latest recruit that their fate rests in Cailan's hands, rather than my own".


More likely he's saying, "You're all going to die: don't blame me when it happens."

Loghain makes a massive - but understandable, given his position (doesn't know/believe there's an archdemon, has only his own forces' welfare in mind) - mistake in calling for a retreat at Ostagar and is then driven to increasingly desperate measures as everything starts going wrong. Did he plot against Cailan before Ostagar? Sure... but I think the extent of that was turning the Orlesians away at the borders and getting rid of political rivals -- I don't think he wanted to kill Cailan at all. He was simply willing to -- which you may be crime enough. (Note: I'm not claiming he's a "nice guy", just that he didn't *want* Cailan dead)

As for who came up with the plan, my guess is that it was indeed Loghain -- but only at Cailan's command.  I think he'd have much preferred to have abandoned Ostagar to the darkspawn, fallen back, regroup with the entirety of Ferelden's forces, "secured the border" and THEN gone on the offensive against the darkspawn with everything at his disposal. Which is more or less exactly what he tries to do after the battle of Ostagar.

Had Loghain not sounded the retreat at Ostagar... (speculation to follow) I think that the battle would have lasted long enough for the Archdemon to show itself and that there would have been enough Grey Wardens to take it down and end the Blight. I also think that, at best, the forces beneath Cailan and Loghain's command would have been utterly devasted, leaving Ferelden in an incredibly weak position amongst the other nations of Thedas. In short, it'd have been a victory for the Grey Wardens ("the plan will work, your majesty") but a pyrrhic victory for Ferelden.

My guess is that Cailan listening to Loghain initially may have actually resulted in the best overall outcome for Ferelden.

1) The final battle of Ostagar wouldn't have taken place
2) The Grey Wardens could have gathered the treaty allies
3) Loghain and Cailan could addressed whatever fallout there was from the former's Orlesian paranoia
4) The chances of a civil war erupting from the above would be pretty slim

It certainly won't have been any worse than what ended up happening.

Edit: Won't keep editing more in, promise.

Modifié par Ulicus, 03 janvier 2010 - 08:55 .

[Xandurpein]

Maviarab wrote...

Also, to further damn Loghain,

He was given an order to flank (not heard but we have to asume) or was agreed to flank by the King of the Land.

Now yes, comparing to RL, it has both worked and backfired in the past, but just because the battle may be looking like it is lost, you do not retreat, nor do you surrender. By leaving the battlefield he commited an act of treason, regardless for his reasons. Cailen HAD to die, otherwise Loghain would be on the block or the gallows for turning tail on the battlefield.

I have seen other variations on this argument before and I must say that it is really nonsense. Nowhere in articles of war or in military tradition, except in rare examples of extreme societies, is it belived that a general should lead his army to it's annihilation to fulfill an order when a battle is already lost. It is simply not true. A general would only be executed if it was blatant cowardice/treason when the battle was still winnable, and not always then even. It would probably depend on the political sitation too. I don't know where you have picked up the idea.

Imagine for a moment, just for the sake of argument that Loghain was innocent of plotting (no even I don't belive that, but still) and that the battle was lost, due to Cailen's folly, but Cailen managed to survuve and get back to Denerim. Do you seriously think Cailen should go ahead and execute Loghain for NOT sacrificing the rest of the army too?

Remember, during cut scenes, we see that Loghain has become mad, would he be the first general to want to depose of his ruler and take the rule for himself?

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

I am becoming a bit tired of the "absolute power corrupts absolutly" argument to be honest. First of all it's just a philosophical idea, not a scientific truth. Secondly it is usually invoked in situations when it has no bearing at all on the discussion, like here. At NO point in the game does anyone have absolute power over Ferelden. Let me also remind you that the King at Ostagar is Cailen, so the line ought to primarily apply to him there. What exactly is your point, by citing this?

[Default137]

Had Loghain not sounded the retreat at Ostagar... (speculation to follow) I think that the battle would have lasted long enough for the Archdemon to show itself and that there would have been enough Grey Wardens to take it down and end the Blight. I also think that, at best, the forces beneath Cailan and Loghain's command would have been utterly devasted, leaving Ferelden in an incredibly weak position amongst the other nations of Thedas. In short, it'd have been a victory for the Grey Wardens ("the plan will work, your majesty") but a pyrrhic victory for Ferelden.

I want to point something out here.

If you have Wynne and Loghain out, he comes out and says that he could not have reached the king had he charged, because he did not have the magical power to even get close enough to him, and his men would have suffered massive casualties trying to reach him, he ALSO mentions the Mages had retreated from the battle long before the fire was lit, due to how badly the battle was actually going.

So I don't even think the battle could have been won with a charge, Loghain would have been bogged down in Darkspawn lines for an amazingly long amount of time, Cailan and Duncan still would have died, and without the Mages supporting them, the small amount of forces still fighting around their king would have collapsed long before they got reinforced, leaving Loghain alone against the entire horde.

Also, in his end game talks with Wynne it also seems that while he knew about Uldred, he did not cause that to happen, as he sarcastically says to Wynne. "Yes, I admit, It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons.  I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Fereldens greatest weapon would bring great benefit to me personally."

The only evidence I can actually find that the battle was even possible to win comes from Shale, telling Loghain "It could have won its battle it knows?" which is odd, considering the Golem was not there, and locked in place during the entire thing, implying that all it knows of the battle came from those who were there, ala Alistar and The Warden.

So we have to wonder who told Shale how the battle went, neither of them actually had a chance to see the battle going on from up their at that height, and they had no indication as to how well it was going, so we have to wonder which one assumed that the battle would have gone well more, which leads me to believe Alistar ignored everyone in his hatred of Loghain, and assumed Cailan and Duncan could have survived if he had charged.

Modifié par Default137, 03 janvier 2010 - 10:10 .

[Xandurpein]

Ulicus wrote...

I don't believe that Loghain actively plotted to take out the Grey Wardens initially, mainly because of the respect he shows to begin with (especially if the main character is a woman: "Don't let anyone tell you that you don't belong. The first Grey Warden Maric brought to Ferelden was a woman. Best warrior I've ever seen") and also because of this little nugget you can get out of him if you converse at the Ostagar camp:

Loghain: Nevertheless, the fate of your order rests in [Cailan's] hands. Remember that.

Why say it at all unless it was what he truly believed? It's not like he's thinking, "Well, some Grey Wardens may survive my cunning trap, so I'll tell their latest recruit that their fate rests in Cailan's hands, rather than my own".


More likely he's saying, "You're all going to die: don't blame me when it happens."

Loghain makes a massive - but understandable, given his position (doesn't know/believe there's an archdemon, has only his own forces' welfare in mind) - mistake in calling for a retreat at Ostagar and is then driven to increasingly desperate measures as everything starts going wrong. Did he plot against Cailan before Ostagar? Sure... but I think the extent of that was turning the Orlesians away at the borders and getting rid of political rivals -- I don't think he wanted to kill Cailan at all. He was simply willing to -- which you may be crime enough. (Note: I'm not claiming he's a "nice guy", just that he didn't *want* Cailan dead)

I think Loghain has a strongly obsessive streak, that is the root of his evil. He is obsessive about hating Orlais and he becomes increasingly "blind" to the evil deeds I think he feels himself forced to do as he maneuvers himself down a moral slippery slope. I really think that in Loghain's mind Cailen was the traitor. The violent arguments preceeding Ostagar between Loghain and Cailen, really only make sense if Loghain tries to talk Cailen into seeing his position, while he at the same time plots how to deal with it if Cailen persists in his "treason" (in Loghain's mind that is).

[Sialater]

Default137 wrote...

Had Loghain not sounded the retreat at Ostagar... (speculation to follow) I think that the battle would have lasted long enough for the Archdemon to show itself and that there would have been enough Grey Wardens to take it down and end the Blight. I also think that, at best, the forces beneath Cailan and Loghain's command would have been utterly devasted, leaving Ferelden in an incredibly weak position amongst the other nations of Thedas. In short, it'd have been a victory for the Grey Wardens ("the plan will work, your majesty") but a pyrrhic victory for Ferelden.

I want to point something out here.

If you have Wynne and Loghain out, he comes out and says that he could not have reached the king had he charged, because he did not have the magical power to even get close enough to him, and his men would have suffered massive casualties trying to reach him, he ALSO mentions the Mages had retreated from the battle long before the fire was lit, due to how badly the battle was actually going.

So I don't even think the battle could have been won with a charge, Loghain would have been bogged down in Darkspawn lines for an amazingly long amount of time, Cailan and Duncan still would have died, and without the Mages supporting them, the small amount of forces still fighting around their king would have collapsed long before they got reinforced, leaving Loghain alone against the entire horde.

Also, in his end game talks with Wynne it also seems that while he knew about Uldred, he did not cause that to happen, as he sarcastically says to Wynne. "Yes, I admit, It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons.  I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Fereldens greatest weapon would bring great benefit to me personally."

The only evidence I can actually find that the battle was even possible to win comes from Shale, telling Loghain "It could have won its battle it knows?" which is odd, considering the Golem was not there, and locked in place during the entire thing, implying that all it knows of the battle came from those who were there, ala Alistar and The Warden.

So we have to wonder who told Shale how the battle went, neither of them actually had a chance to see the battle going on from up their at that height, and they had no indication as to how well it was going, so we have to wonder which one assumed that the battle would have gone well more, which leads me to believe Alistar ignored everyone in his hatred of Loghain, and assumed Cailan and Duncan could have survived if he had charged.

Wynne was also there.  And probably closer to the actual fighting than the PC or Alistair.

[m_kaay]

Sialater wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Loghain saw the Grey Wardens as an Orlesian organization. The plan was to get rid of the GWs first and foremost. He tried to talk the king out of staying with them in the fight and objected when the PC and Alistair are put forward to light the beacon.

He wrote the king off when the glory mad idiot stayed with his heroes. He shouldn't have, but he did. Everything was done to clear Ferelden of Orlesian influence, real or imagined.

I agree.  That seems like the likely thought process Loghain had.  However, the resulting ideas that he did not change his mind when Cailan chose to stand with the Wardens and that he would sacrifice a large part of his army to the darkspawn at a time of crisis are unforgivable.

I agree with that, too.  He shouldn't have left the king to die.  When Cailan insisted upon his version of the plan, Loghain should have changed his, at least long enough to extract the king.  Failing to rescue the king was against his sworn duty.  But who cares, as long as Orlais was removed from Ferelden?

The plan was already too far underway to turn back. OK, I haven't carefully read this whole topic, but I see no mention of the guard posted before the Tower - i recall him saying some tunnels were being investigated, but he hadn't seen any when he was there.
Here's the way I see it: Loghain had the tunnel prepared. The bloody thing was too big to miss, and he wouldn't be investigating a tunnel that was *being dug* by darkspawn (and not there yet). It was prepared for them.
He had planned to remove the Wardens (who would bring foreign forces into the country, and were a distraction from "real" solutions), and retreat with their regular army with the excuse that the beacon was never lit.
The loss of the battle, and the "tragic sacrifice" of the legendary Wardens, would sober up and unite Ferelden. Under Cailan, who should have, in the end, been swayed (as Anora said
would always be the case). Regicide was unintended, but he could either
allow that, or reveal his sabotage. Things went pear-shaped from there.


So yes. The battle was lost before it even began. But it WAS his fault.


Someone here mentioned that Loghain would have killed his daughter if needed. Thing is, I believe his word that he wouldn't have. Note, however, that this bit of humanity makes him an even worse scumbag. Genocide, strife, slavery, tyranny, completely unnecessary torture, more genocide, and generally driving morale below sea level, all "for the greater good", yet he wouldn't sacrifice one who was not only a threat, but VERY useful dead, not because she was a loved queen, but because she was family.

Modifié par m_kaay, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:13 .

[Realmzmaster]

Actually the PC and Alistair could see the entire battlefield from the tower. The whole point of ligting the beacon in the tower was because they could see all the fighting.

If they could not see the battle from the tower there would be no point in lighting the beacon because they would not have known when to light it.

Duncan even said Alistair would know when to light it. The purpose of getting to that high point was to survey the battlefield and signal Loghain.

[Xandurpein]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually the PC and Alistair could see the entire battlefield from the tower. The whole point of ligting the beacon in the tower was because they could see all the fighting.
If they could not see the battle from the tower there would be no point in lighting the beacon because they would not have known when to light it.
Duncan even said Alistair would know when to light it. The purpose of getting to that high point was to survey the battlefield and signal Loghain.

But we never see Alistair or the PC surveying the field, certainly there is no waiting for the right moment. The PC and Alistair just slowly makes their way up the tower and immediatly after the ogre is slain you light the beacon. There is nothing in this that proves it couldn't already be too late.

[Necroscope84]

trh5001 wrote...

Don't forget that it was Loghains men who were exploring the underground chambers of the Tower of Ishal. I think this means that Loghain found out about the darkspawn comming and wanted whoever went up their to fail to light the beacon so when he retreated he could claim it was because the beacon was never lit. It would also lend credence to why he never wanted the Grey Wardens to go light the beacon, being that Grey Wardens would have a far greater likelihood of success than anyone else almost ensuring the beacon would never be lit and no one could claim he abandoned the king.

Exactly and let's not forget Duncan and while Calin might be a bit dumb in the war planning department Duncan wasn't.  Duncan told Calin "This plan will work your majesty"  Which tells me that if   A. Loghain didn't abandon them and    B.  Hadn't of allowed the tower to be overrun by darkspawn that they indeed would have won. 

  Now whether or not the Archdemon would have shown it's ugly head is another matter but since the King had already won several victories here it sounds as if they would have easily destroyed this blight before it had even begun properly. 

I only wonder why Loghain went nuts?  He was a hero to his people and his best friend was Cailan's dad and he raised Cailan as a son but he hated the Orleasians due to their invading and taking over Fereldan for the last 80 years.  Yes he was a hero and seems to have genuinely loved Maric but I wonder if he wasn't jealous?  I wonder if he wanted to be the one who led the people against the Orlesians?  Or did he start developing a psychosis of some form? Paranoia, delusions of grandeur, Schizophrenia?  Or could something darker be at work?  Flemath was there just in time to save the last two Grey Wardens.  How much of the following and leading events could have been here handiwork?  I'm sure it would take a minor bit of magic to make Loghain paranoid, or she could have even controlled him, allowing the Grey Wardens to escape, Cailan to die and then sending the Wardens on a new path to defeat Loghain and sending Morrigan along to accomplish those goals and here other more mysterious goals.  How much of what Morrigan did was predestined?  Was her part already decided for her and she didn't know it?  Or did she simply jump on several opportunities that presented themselves to her?  Anything is possible.

  So many questions and so few answers........at least for now.

Modifié par Necroscope84, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:35 .

[Xandurpein]

Necroscope84 wrote...

I only wonder why Loghain went nuts?  He was a hero to his people and his best friend was Cailan's dad and he raised Cailan as a son but he hated the Orleasians due to their invading and taking over Fereldan for the last 80 years.  Yes he was a hero and seems to have genuinely loved Maric but I wonder if he wasn't jealous?  I wonder if he wanted to be the one who led the people against the Orlesians?  Or did he start developing a psychosis of some form? Paranoia, delusions of grandeur, Schizophrenia?  Or could something darker be at work? 

Well... unless you belive that he was a homicidal nutcase who just wanted to be King and both he and Anora simply feed you lies (I really don't belive this), you can piece a lot of it from asking Anora and to some extent Loghain himself.

Loghain hates the Orlesians - period. He spent most of his youth leading the war to free Ferelden from Orlais with Maric. He is also a very obsessive man, even when he is on your good side. Anora will tell you about how he sought high and low for flower for his wife that reveals a lot of this side of him. I think his obesession with preserving Ferelden from Orlais becomes a lens that distorts everything he sees. That eventually beomes a sort of madness I suppose. He simply cannot accept that Cailen wants to invite Orlesian troops into Ferelden to fight the Darkspawn.

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

Necroscope84 wrote...

I only wonder why Loghain went nuts?  He was a hero to his people and his best friend was Cailan's dad and he raised Cailan as a son but he hated the Orleasians due to their invading and taking over Fereldan for the last 80 years.  Yes he was a hero and seems to have genuinely loved Maric but I wonder if he wasn't jealous?  I wonder if he wanted to be the one who led the people against the Orlesians?  Or did he start developing a psychosis of some form? Paranoia, delusions of grandeur, Schizophrenia?  Or could something darker be at work? 

Well... unless you belive that he was a homicidal nutcase who just wanted to be King and both he and Anora simply feed you lies (I really don't belive this), you can piece a lot of it from asking Anora and to some extent Loghain himself.

Loghain hates the Orlesians - period. He spent most of his youth leading the war to free Ferelden from Orlais with Maric. He is also a very obsessive man, even when he is on your good side. Anora will tell you about how he sought high and low for flower for his wife that reveals a lot of this side of him. I think his obesession with preserving Ferelden from Orlais becomes a lens that distorts everything he sees. That eventually beomes a sort of madness I suppose. He simply cannot accept that Cailen wants to invite Orlesian troops into Ferelden to fight the Darkspawn.

This is supported a lot by what happens in game.  It's more paranoid delusions than anything else, seeing things that aren't real weaved into things that are.  He refuses to even consider that the Orlesians wouldn't go ahead and take over once the darkspawn are defeated.  The fact that this is a delusion can be seen by what happens end game.  Orlais does not attack.  To Loghain, this is the biggest threat, and it's unsubstantiated by anything that happens in game.  He can even be successfully called on it at the Landsmeet.  So yeah, fighting Orlais may well have ruined him.

[bobsmyuncle]

Default137 wrote...
Basically, in case you didn't know, the plan at Ostagar, from what I understood was that Cailan would lead the majority of Fereldens military into the Darkspawn hordes, drawing them out, and leaving their flanks open to an attack on the side, when the beacon was lit, Loghain would charge in, and take out most of the Darkspawn. It all sounds well and good, but according to Wynne, it didn't work nearly as well as it should have, and if you have her and Loghain out, she confirms what he says, and tells you that the battle had already been lost long before the tower was even lit, implying that even if Loghain charged, Cailan and Duncan would have most likely died.

I do think that Ostagar was meant to be a loss, but I'm not sure Loghain intended to kill Cailan all along. I got the impression prior to the battle that Loghain didn't want Cailan to be on the front lines with the Wardens, but Cailan insisted on account of it being an awesome thing to do. It's pretty common knowledge that arranging for someone to be on the front line of an army is a pretty good way to get them killed (see King David and Uriah) and I definitely think the idea was to put the Wardens out there and hope they got wiped out, Loghain just didn't reckon on Cailan being such a Grey Warden fanboy. And while this is a really dumb move in terms of leaving Ferelden with no Wardens to beat back the Archdemon, Loghain didn't believe this was a Blight (because he doesn't believe himself to be a traitor - this is tied to something said in the novel The Stolen Throne), plus the fact that it has to be a Warden killing the Archdemon isn't widely known. He probably thought he could sacrifice some of the army plus the Wardens, then regroup with Cailan and Eamon and push the darkspawn back underground without any Orlesian interference this time, it just didn't work out the way he thought it would. I also want to point out that Loghain met Duncan when they were both much younger, and to Loghain's way of thinking Duncan was part of a failed Orlesian plot to kill Maric. He was probably positively gleeful to be able to throw Duncan under a bus.

I don't remotely intend to excuse the regicide, just that I don't think Loghain was doing this in some mustache-twirling plot to seize the throne. Someone said elsewhere that Loghain is like your WW2 vet grandpa who believes that Toyota is a Japanese revenge plot, and this is the lens I use to interpret most of his actions. Discerning the actual breadth of his betrayal is very difficult due to the hazy timeline of the game events. I don't know how long it took for my mage PC to reach Ostagar, when Loghain found Jowan and sent him to poison Eamon, etc., although the knight in Lothering does say it's been a while. It's possible that Duncan and the PC didn't go straight to Ostagar but the timing is odd to say the least.

[jon 45]

bobsmyuncle wrote...

He probably thought he could sacrifice some of the army plus the Wardens, then regroup with Cailan and Eamon and push the darkspawn back underground without any Orlesian interference this time, it just didn't work out the way he thought it would.

Loghain may be delusional, but even he isn't crazy enough to believe he could count on the help of the man whose murder he had recently arranged,

[Ariella]

Sialater wrote...

None of that indicates he didn't do exactly what I said, that it was a trap for the Grey Wardens and Cailan was a bystander.

Cailan was not a bystander to Loghain's plans. He was, in fact, it's target. Loghain was even prophesied to do this:

"He (Loghain) will betray you, each time worse than the last"- Flemeth to Maric in The Stolen Throne.

Cailan had to die for Loghain's plans to succeed, because if Cailan lived, there was no guarentee he would not invited the Orleasians back anyway. In fact if all of the Fereldan Grey Wardens died and Cailan surived, Loghain would have been called inept as he was the commanding general and it was his strategy... He would have probably been replaced and the Orleasian Wardens  not only invited in but given more freedom to act than before.

In Loghain's mind Cailan was as much a target as the Wardens themselves.

[Xandurpein]

Ariella wrote...

Sialater wrote...

None of that indicates he didn't do exactly what I said, that it was a trap for the Grey Wardens and Cailan was a bystander.

Cailan was not a bystander to Loghain's plans. He was, in fact, it's target. Loghain was even prophesied to do this:

"He (Loghain) will betray you, each time worse than the last"- Flemeth to Maric in The Stolen Throne.

Cailan had to die for Loghain's plans to succeed, because if Cailan lived, there was no guarentee he would not invited the Orleasians back anyway. In fact if all of the Fereldan Grey Wardens died and Cailan surived, Loghain would have been called inept as he was the commanding general and it was his strategy... He would have probably been replaced and the Orleasian Wardens  not only invited in but given more freedom to act than before.

In Loghain's mind Cailan was as much a target as the Wardens themselves.

I agree with that. Loghain belived Cailen was becoming a traitor, because he was going to allow Orlesian chevaliers to enter Ferelden. The fact that Loghain argued so much with Cailen about it, suggests that up to the last moment Loghain hoped that Cailen would change his mind and come around to his view, so he didn't have to go ahead with his plan.

[robertthebard]

Ariella wrote...

Sialater wrote...

None of that indicates he didn't do exactly what I said, that it was a trap for the Grey Wardens and Cailan was a bystander.

Cailan was not a bystander to Loghain's plans. He was, in fact, it's target. Loghain was even prophesied to do this:

"He (Loghain) will betray you, each time worse than the last"- Flemeth to Maric in The Stolen Throne.

Cailan had to die for Loghain's plans to succeed, because if Cailan lived, there was no guarentee he would not invited the Orleasians back anyway. In fact if all of the Fereldan Grey Wardens died and Cailan surived, Loghain would have been called inept as he was the commanding general and it was his strategy... He would have probably been replaced and the Orleasian Wardens  not only invited in but given more freedom to act than before.

In Loghain's mind Cailan was as much a target as the Wardens themselves.

OH no, there's a chance that Morrigan is Maric's daughter, arrrrgghhh!!!

[bobsmyuncle]

jon 45 wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...

He probably thought he could sacrifice some of the army plus the Wardens, then regroup with Cailan and Eamon and push the darkspawn back underground without any Orlesian interference this time, it just didn't work out the way he thought it would.

Loghain may be delusional, but even he isn't crazy enough to believe he could count on the help of the man whose murder he had recently arranged,

That's true if you accept that Loghain made arrangements with Jowan prior to Ostagar. However, playing as a mage PC I had a hard time reconciling the idea that while Duncan and I were traveling to the battlefield, Loghain left, met Jowan and sent him to Redcliffe and returned to Ostagar. I know that the knight in Lothering speaks as if Eamon has been ill for some time, but if that's so then either Duncan and I took our sweet time walking from the tower to Ostagar, or Jowan has a secret tunnel for sneaking out of the tower and has been holding out on my PC.

On the other hand, even if he did do all that and knew Eamon would be out of commission, he still could have been banking on being able to deal with Isolde, who trusts him, or Teagan, whose avoidance of politics could be construed as inability, or even just hoping he'd be able to swing by and commandeer the knights there, unknowing that Isolde sent them all off in search of the holy grail urn of sacred ashes.

[Ariella]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually the PC and Alistair could see the entire battlefield from the tower. The whole point of ligting the beacon in the tower was because they could see all the fighting.
If they could not see the battle from the tower there would be no point in lighting the beacon because they would not have known when to light it.
Duncan even said Alistair would know when to light it. The purpose of getting to that high point was to survey the battlefield and signal Loghain.

Did you pay attention to the room in which the beacon was in... there were no windows. You couldn't see the field from the fourth level..

Second, you don't exactly have TIME to survey the field as you've been fighting your way through darkspawn. Alistair even says "we probably missed the signal, let just get ht beacon lighted now so Loghain will charge".

[Default137]

Wynne was also there.  And probably closer to the actual fighting than the PC or Alistair.

The Mages fled the field long before the fire was lit, there was no way she could have seen the battle as they were leaving, and no way she would have told Shale that it "could have been won had Loghain charged". Considering the Mages BARELY made it out, with only a few actually surviving, it sounds as though they were getting attacked the entire retreat, implying that Cailans lines had not only been broken, but had totally and utterly fallen long before the torch was lit.

As for Loghains actions being premeditated, nothing implies this,  Arl Eamon couldn't have been poisoned before Ostagar, because Duncan mentioned AT Ostagar that the Arl had told him his forces were coming, and Jowan would have just escaped the Mages Tower, so I'm guessing that the Knights mention of Eamon being posioned prior to Ostagar was a mistake on the devs part, or the Knight was -50 IQ. The only other thing that implies Loghain was planning this for a long time is the murder of the Couslands, however, there is NO evidence Loghain ordered this, or was even working with Howe at the time, you must realize, this is a time of war, and as Duncan said, had Howe triumphed, he could have told Cailan anything he wanted to, your survival however made this plan fail.

Really, with the evidence the game provides us, this is how thinks look.

- Howe decided now would be a great chance to get rid of a rival, and take his land, he attacked the Couslands while their forces where asleep, and planned to kill the whole family, unfortuantly for him, Fergus was sent out a day earlier then he had planned, and a Gray Warden was able to get one of the other family members out as well. ( Or, if your character is not a Cousland, he did suceed, and the Cousland line was killed. )

- Loghain/Cailan made a battleplan that Loghain himself said was foolish, and tried arguing with Cailan over, he thought it was suicidal, and would not work, Cailan thought it would be a great way to get honor and glory, and be a hero.

- The battle at Ostagar was fought, Cailans lines fell very early in the fight, just as Loghain said they would, the Mages were forced the retreat very early, and Cailan and Duncan probably ended up very badly outnumbered very quickly.

- Loghain left the field, because in his paranoia fueled state, he realized that a charge would be suicide for the men under his command, and if those troops died, Ferelden would be open to Orlais, note, all evidence points that had he charged, Cailan and Duncan still would have fallen, as their lines had not held/Mages left the field.

- After the fight was over, Loghain decided to make sure nobody would challenge his rule outright, as he attempted to secure the borders against Orlais, and deal with the remaining Darkspawn, he had Arl Eamon poisoned, as he was one of the most popular Arls, as well as Cailans father, and would be very inquisitive as to what happened at Ostagar, and blamed the Gray Wardens for what happened at Ostagar, claiming they betrayed their King. ( How they betrayed is left in the air, he probably just said they never lit the beacon, leaving Cailan to die. )

- Around this time, Uldred realized most of the Mages had died at Ostagar, and led a coup, he captured First Enchanter Irving, and killed all those who resisted, and took over the Tower of the Magi.

- After the Gray Wardens saved Eamon, and started the Civil War, Howe hired Zevran to kill the Gray Wardens with Loghains approval, shortly after the war occured, and the Gray Wardens started gaining allies, Loghain realized he would need more money to fund his armies, so he started selling the Elves of the Alienage to the Tevinter.

- Once the Gray Wardens got to him, and started a Landsmeet, and actually won, he refused to give over Ferelden to a group he did not trust, and in his mind may have been conspiring with Orlais, and tried to fight them in 1v1 Combat, he was defeated, and ended up being enscripted into the Gray Wardens.

Thats what I've been able to gather so far with in game evidence, if anyone has anything SOLID ( IE, not "I don't like him cuz Alistar is so dreamy :3" Or "HE HAD A DUN DUN DUN CUTSCENE HE MUST BE SATAN" )  that refutes any of those, please point it out, but after playing through the intro at least 20 times now, and talking to all my party members/Loghain near the end of the game, this is the only thing that makes sense.

I'd really like to see Gaider or another one of the writers come down and give us a bit more info on what actually happened, as I said, alot of the evidence in the game points to what I posted above, but there is a ton of gaps still, and it would be interesting to know what happened during those times.

Modifié par Default137, 05 janvier 2010 - 02:10 .

[Asylumer]

Default137 wrote...

I'd really like to see Gaider or another one of the writers come down and give us a bit more info on what actually happened, as I said, alot of the evidence in the game points to what I posted above, but there is a ton of gaps still, and it would be ineresting to know what happened during those times.

I wish he would too. During the my playthrough I also wondered the same things about Loghain's pull-out. He says the Wardens betrayed Ferelden, and even his men who were there seemed convinced of it, but they never specified how. Not lighting the beacon in time could very well be the betrayal Loghain was talking about.

Loghain didn't believe it was a true Blight, so why waste his army when the Orlesians would jump at a weakened Ferelden's throat. The plan might have worked if the signal was raised in time but that's not how things worked out. If Uldred wasn't over-ruled by the Revered Mother with his plan to magically signal the forces then we'd have a much better idea of whether Loghain wanted to ditch Cailen or not.

Maybe we'll learn more with Return to Ostagar?

[eschilde]

Well, the knight in Lothering says was Eamon was poisoned before the battle, not before Ostagar, period, which does give a bit of leeway. For Eamon to have been poisoned by Loghain before the battle, it would have to go something like this:

1) Cailin and Loghain start amassing troops to send to Ostagar, including Circle mages

2) Troops begin to arrive at Ostagar. They fight, what was it, I think 2-4 battles (forget the exact number but somewhere in that ballpark) which could be spread out over weeks, possibly even a couple months if you really stretch it. Remember that in the HN origin, Fergus expects to be gone for a few months on this campaign, so it's not unreasonable to assume it's lasted a few weeks already. During this period, Duncan is out recruiting somewhere in Fereldan and also goes through Redcliffe at some point.

3) Isolde has, prior to this, contacted Loghain about finding a tutor for Connor. 

4) Jowan escapes from the tower, and if you're a mage, Duncan gets his recruit. There's probably a few days difference for the other origins. You then make the journey to Ostagar. It's fairly reasonable to assume that, if you're coming from Orzammar, Denerim or Highever, it could take around 2-3 weeks to get to Ostagar based on what Dagna says about the distance between Orzammar and Circle Tower, and eyeballing the map (assuming you're taking the imperial highway). Obviously it's shorter if you're coming from the Tower, maybe 1-2 weeks.

5) During your travel time to Ostagar, Jowan gets caught and thrown into a Denerim(?) prison, Loghain gets alerted and has time to see him personally, and still has time to make it to Ostagar in time for the battle, while Jowan goes to Redcliffe and manages to bring the Arl down before the final battle. That is where this really gets stretched. It's possible, though, if you think Jowan only made it out a day or two before getting caught, and that he was traveling generally toward Denerim and not the opposite direction. If Loghain stole the only horse in Fereldan, he'd definitely beat you to Ostagar.
However, Loghain's wanting to off Eamon doesn't mean he planned Ostagar with the intention of getting Cailin killed.

- Loghain/Cailan made a battleplan that Loghain himself said was foolish, and tried arguing with Cailan over, he thought it was suicidal, and would not work, Cailan thought it would be a great way to get honor and glory, and be a hero.

Actually, throughout Ostagar, it's mentioned by many people, including Duncan and Alistair, that Loghain is the one who has been planning the battles at Ostagar. During the war meeting, Loghain says Caillin being on the front lines is dangerous, not the plan itself. Cailin also does not act as though he has studied the ins and outs of the plan, since as Loghain is explaining the plan, Cailin says, "--to flank the darkspawn, I remember now." I don't believe that who has been coming up with the battle plan is really a debatable point.

- The battle at Ostagar was fought, Cailans lines fell very early in the fight, just as Loghain said they would, the Mages were forced the retreat very early, and Cailan and Duncan probably ended up very badly outnumbered very quickly.

I didn't see Loghain say anything about expecting Cailin's line to fall. It seemed like both he and Cailin believed in this plan during the war council, and there was no discussion between he and Caillin afterwards. I'm assuming what you're saying about the mages is in the mage war council, because I didn't see it in the HN or DC meetings, which were the ones I have handy. I would also assume that Loghain would never, ever say anything beyond, "Being on the front lines is dangerous," to the king. If he did intend to have Cailin killed in battle, he wouldn't say such a thing, and otherwise, he would have had faith in his own plan.

- After the fight was over, Loghain decided to make sure nobody would challenge his rule outright, as he attempted to secure the borders against Orlais, and dealt with the remaining Darkspawn, he had Arl Eamon poisoned, as he was one of those most popular Arls, as well as Cailans father, and would be very inquisitive as to what happened at Ostagar, and blamed the Gray Wardens for what happened at Ostagar, claiming they betrayed their King. ( How they betrayed is left in the air, he probably just said they never lit the beacon, leaving Cailan to die. )

Loghain's men in Lothering say the Wardens led the king to his death, which seems to be what he publicized. I don't think Loghain would outright lie about the beacon, especially since while his force was unharmed, they were not the only survivors of Ostagar. Wynne is an example, and she states that there were others who were merely wounded. To Anora, he says Cailin's death was his own doing, which is not a lie, either. Loghain's outlawing the Wardens had as much, if not more, to do with keeping the Orlesian Wardens out. He didn't even find out there were Wardens still alive until later (the second Denerim cut scene, if I'm not mistaken), though he did have the presence of mind to leave men on watch at the first town on the highway, I suppose because the beacon was actually lit so he knew they made it that far.It's also possible he did convince himself it was the Wardens' fault Cailin died. After all, you don't know what the signal for lighting the beacon is, and after managing to kill the ogre, Alistair says, "We've surely missed the signal." Loghain may not have known the tower was overrun and that you and Alistair had to fight your way through it to the top. Maybe he thought that since you took so long to light the beacon, it was too late for him to charge or make any sort of difference in the battle. Who knows.

Edit: stupid forum formatting

Modifié par eschilde, 05 janvier 2010 - 02:34 .

[robertthebard]

Default137 wrote...

Wynne was also there.  And probably closer to the actual fighting than the PC or Alistair.

The Mages fled the field long before the fire was lit, there was no way she could have seen the battle as they were leaving, and no way she would have told Shale that it "could have been won had Loghain charged". Considering the Mages BARELY made it out, with only a few actually surviving, it sounds as though they were getting attacked the entire retreat, implying that Cailans lines had not only been broken, but had totally and utterly fallen long before the torch was lit.

As for Loghains actions being premeditated, nothing implies this,  Arl Eamon couldn't have been poisoned before Ostagar, because Duncan mentioned AT Ostagar that the Arl had told him his forces were coming, and Jowan would have just escaped the Mages Tower, so I'm guessing that the Knights mention of Eamon being posioned prior to Ostagar was a mistake on the devs part, or the Knight was -50 IQ. The only other thing that implies Loghain was planning this for a long time is the murder of the Couslands, however, there is NO evidence Loghain ordered this, or was even working with Howe at the time, you must realize, this is a time of war, and as Duncan said, had Howe triumphed, he could have told Cailan anything he wanted to, your survival however made this plan fail.

Really, with the evidence the game provides us, this is how thinks look.

- Howe decided now would be a great chance to get rid of a rival, and take his land, he attacked the Couslands while their forces where asleep, and planned to kill the whole family, unfortuantly for him, Fergus was sent out a day earlier then he had planned, and a Gray Warden was able to get one of the other family members out as well. ( Or, if your character is not a Cousland, he did suceed, and the Cousland line was killed. )

- Loghain/Cailan made a battleplan that Loghain himself said was foolish, and tried arguing with Cailan over, he thought it was suicidal, and would not work, Cailan thought it would be a great way to get honor and glory, and be a hero.

- The battle at Ostagar was fought, Cailans lines fell very early in the fight, just as Loghain said they would, the Mages were forced the retreat very early, and Cailan and Duncan probably ended up very badly outnumbered very quickly.

- Loghain left the field, because in his paranoia fueled state, he realized that a charge would be suicide for the men under his command, and if those troops died, Ferelden would be open to Orlais, note, all evidence points that had he charged, Cailan and Duncan still would have fallen, as their lines had not held/Mages left the field.

- After the fight was over, Loghain decided to make sure nobody would challenge his rule outright, as he attempted to secure the borders against Orlais, and deal with the remaining Darkspawn, he had Arl Eamon poisoned, as he was one of the most popular Arls, as well as Cailans father, and would be very inquisitive as to what happened at Ostagar, and blamed the Gray Wardens for what happened at Ostagar, claiming they betrayed their King. ( How they betrayed is left in the air, he probably just said they never lit the beacon, leaving Cailan to die. )

- Around this time, Uldred realized most of the Mages had died at Ostagar, and led a coup, he captured First Enchanter Irving, and killed all those who resisted, and took over the Tower of the Magi.

- After the Gray Wardens saved Eamon, and started the Civil War, Howe hired Zevran to kill the Gray Wardens with Loghains approval, shortly after the war occured, and the Gray Wardens started gaining allies, Loghain realized he would need more money to fund his armies, so he started selling the Elves of the Alienage to the Tevinter.

- Once the Gray Wardens got to him, and started a Landsmeet, and actually won, he refused to give over Ferelden to a group he did not trust, and in his mind may have been conspiring with Orlais, and tried to fight them in 1v1 Combat, he was defeated, and ended up being enscripted into the Gray Wardens.

Thats what I've been able to gather so far with in game evidence, if anyone has anything SOLID ( IE, not "I don't like him cuz Alistar is so dreamy :3" Or "HE HAD A DUN DUN DUN CUTSCENE HE MUST BE SATAN" )  that refutes any of those, please point it out, but after playing through the intro at least 20 times now, and talking to all my party members/Loghain near the end of the game, this is the only thing that makes sense.

I'd really like to see Gaider or another one of the writers come down and give us a bit more info on what actually happened, as I said, alot of the evidence in the game points to what I posted above, but there is a ton of gaps still, and it would be interesting to know what happened during those times.

Except that we know he was poisoned before Ostagar.  Not much of a stretch, depending on what PC and Duncan do on the way to Ostagar from even the Mage tower.  Even assuming they do go to Redcliffe on the way, Jowan could arrive just after they leave, and still do what he had to do.

Evidently, however, your timeline is off.  Saving Eamon does not start the Civil War.  You would know this if you did pay attention to the cut scenes.  It is Teagan that tells Loghain, in the very first cutscene after Flemeth's hut that the Bannorn will not bow to Loghain.  This is a gaping hole in your logic.  The war is already well under way when you save Eamon.

It's also interesting to note that Eamon isn't Cailin's father, he's his uncle.  Maric married his sister.  Perhaps, before you go stating things as fact, you should probably gather some?

[SeanMurphy2]

Late plot alterations could have caused inconsistencies in the Eamon poisoning timeline.

I can't remember if Loghain and Cailan are meant to already be at Ostager at the time the mage origin is happening. If so I can't see Loghain having the opportunity to oversee the capture of Jowan and then recommend him to Isolde.

The alternative is that you and Duncan don't go straight to Ostager.This gives Loghain enough time to recruit Jowan, recommend him to Isolde and then arrive there well before you. Since it is mentioned that Loghain had already won some victories which suggest he has been there a while.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 05 janvier 2010 - 02:57 .

[Default137]

Problem with the whole Eamon thing is, Duncan says as you enter Ostagar.

"My King, Eamon wished us to remind you that his forces can be here in about a week" ( or something like that )

Implying that you and Duncan passed through Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar, and Eamon was in fact, quite well indeed, considering the map of Ferelden, Jowan would have most likely either been heading to the Forests to hide, the mountains to hide, or since he's kind of slow, Denerim to hide, this would put him in the total opposite direction of Ostagar and Redcliffe.

So saying Loghain poisoned Eamon well before Ostagar, or even during Ostagar is a fair stretch indeed, as many have pointed out through the game, travel in Ferelden takes months, and I think people would have suspicions had Loghain disappeared for two months during battle planning.

As for Loghain saying he thought the plan was suicidal, and that it would not work, and that he did not have much of a hand in it, he says these things to Wynne and the Warden if you let him live, and talk to him in the endgame about Ostagar, of course, you could just say he's lying through his teeth at that point, but what reason would he have to lie?

*edit* The Civil War does not start until you save Eamon, Teagen says a bit to Loghain about how the Bann will not bow, however the actual fighting DOES NOT start until Eamon is saved, you will not meet any soldiers in the wilderness, nobody says anything about fighting going on on either side, and Howe makes NO mention of a Civil War actually starting until after the Urn quest.

There may be some minor skirmishes sure, because a few people are unhappy with what happened, and are suspicious, but saying a Civil War was already going is just not true from what we saw, all that had happened prior to that was a few Banns argued with Loghain, thats it.

And yes, I typed out a paragraph, and messed up on one persons relatives lines, please try using this as evidence that I am obviously wrong in every way some more, and that none of the people in the game saying the battle was lost no matter what happened, that Loghain was just acting as he normally would do to his paranoia, and that he and Anora are in fact totally evil to the core, want nothing but to conquer Thedas, and lie to you with every sentence, rather then them possibly being well made villans with reasons behind their actions like Saren.

Modifié par Default137, 05 janvier 2010 - 02:54 .