129 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

Default137 wrote...

I want to point something out here.

If you have Wynne and Loghain out, he comes out and says that he could not have reached the king had he charged, because he did not have the magical power to even get close enough to him, and his men would have suffered massive casualties trying to reach him, he ALSO mentions the Mages had retreated from the battle long before the fire was lit, due to how badly the battle was actually going.

So I don't even think the battle could have been won with a charge, Loghain would have been bogged down in Darkspawn lines for an amazingly long amount of time, Cailan and Duncan still would have died, and without the Mages supporting them, the small amount of forces still fighting around their king would have collapsed long before they got reinforced, leaving Loghain alone against the entire horde.

Uh, you're sort of preaching to the choir, mate.

I speculated that Loghain's charge may have dragged the battle out long enough for the archdemon to show itself and the Grey Wardens to slay it, yeah... but I also suggested that it would have been a "pyrrhic victory" ("A very costly victory, wherein the considerable losses outweigh the gain, so as to render the battle unfavourable") for Ferelden.

The King might not have died as soon as he did, but he'd have probably died regardless. I don't think Loghain could have saved him by the time the beacon was lit (or any time it was lit, actually). Loghain might have died too... and the *entirety* of the forces that went to Ostagar would have been devastated, as opposed to just those at the vanguard with the King.

Would it have been worth it to end the Blight then and there? Maybe... I don't know.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 janvier 2010 - 02:56 .

[eschilde]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Late plot alterations could have caused inconsistencies in the Eamon poisoning timeline.

I can't remember if Loghain and Cailan are already at Ostager at the time the mage origin is happening.

No fun explanation  

Irving and Gregoir mention that there are already mages committed to the war effort when Duncan comes to recruit, and I believe Duncan says they are at Ostagar. That doesn't necessarily mean that Loghain is physically in Ostagar. I would guess that he'd be able to plan small, defensive battles from Denerim if he had maps and information about troops.

[eschilde]

Implying that you and Duncan passed through Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar, and Eamon was in fact, quite well indeed, considering the map of Ferelden, Jowan would have most likely either been heading to the Forests to hide, the mountains to hide, or since he's kind of slow, Denerim to hide, this would put him in the total opposite direction of Ostagar and Redcliffe.

If that were the case, Isolde would know you were a Warden when you go to Redcliffe. It's far more likely that Duncan saw Eamon prior to recruiting you, and you went directly to Ostagar afterwards.

[Ulicus]

Maybe she was washing her hair when they came to visit? Still, either way, travel time between Redcliffe and Ostagar isn't instantaneous and there would be time for Eamon to fall ill/get poisoned after Duncan left and before Ostagar even if he did pass through after recruiting the Warden. (Which wouldn't be so hard to believe, even if he didn't take the new Warden with him)

Honestly, though, I think the game itself is confused about the poisoning issue and the timeframe is a bit wonky whatever way you want to look at it. IIRC, in the Redcliffe story itself it's implied that Jowan was hired as a poisoner because of his position as Connor's tutor, not hired to poison Eamon prior to becoming Connor's tutor... which is what the game later implies.

Of course, Anora would blame it all on Howe, in any case.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:06 .

[eschilde]

Ulicus wrote...

Maybe she was washing her hair when they came to visit? Still, either way, travel time between Redcliffe and Ostagar isn't instantaneous and there would be time for Eamon to fall ill/get poisoned after Duncan left and before Ostagar.

Honestly, though, I think the game itself is confused about the poisoning issue and the timeframe is really wonky whatever way you want to look at it. IIRC, in the Redcliffe story itself it's implied that Jowan was hired as a poisoner *because* of his position as Connor's tutor, not hired to poison Eamon and then sent to offer his services as a tutor.

That might be feasible, except that Jowan and the templar in Howe's dungeon both say he was captured and taken away by the teyrn's men, at which point Loghain tasked him to poison the Arl in return for having his name cleared with the Circle.

[Default137]

eschilde wrote...

Implying that you and Duncan passed through Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar, and Eamon was in fact, quite well indeed, considering the map of Ferelden, Jowan would have most likely either been heading to the Forests to hide, the mountains to hide, or since he's kind of slow, Denerim to hide, this would put him in the total opposite direction of Ostagar and Redcliffe.

If that were the case, Isolde would know you were a Warden when you go to Redcliffe. It's far more likely that Duncan saw Eamon prior to recruiting you, and you went directly to Ostagar afterwards.

Very true, hadn't thought of that, however Isolde does seem kind of ditzy, and would have had alot of stuff on her plate due to the fact she just found out her only son could cast Magic, so I doubt she would have had alot of time to meet with Duncan and his newest crazy person, especially if she was desperatly looking for someone to tutor Conner.

[Ulicus]

eschilde wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Maybe she was washing her hair when they came to visit? Still, either way, travel time between Redcliffe and Ostagar isn't instantaneous and there would be time for Eamon to fall ill/get poisoned after Duncan left and before Ostagar.

Honestly, though, I think the game itself is confused about the poisoning issue and the timeframe is really wonky whatever way you want to look at it. IIRC, in the Redcliffe story itself it's implied that Jowan was hired as a poisoner *because* of his position as Connor's tutor, not hired to poison Eamon and then sent to offer his services as a tutor.

That might be feasible, except that Jowan and the templar in Howe's dungeon both say he was captured and taken away by the teyrn's men, at which point Loghain tasked him to poison the Arl in return for having his name cleared with the Circle.

Well, if you wanted to be pedantic (and I do), you could argue that this occured after the events at Redcliffe. I agree that it's probably intended to be the point where Loghain tasks him to poison the Arl but that's never actually stated. We're just told that Templars had Jowan in custody, they were ambushed/killed/captured by the Teyrn's men, and then they didn't see him again.

When I first played the game, since I had sent Jowan back to the Circle and remembering the implication that Jowan had been hired as a poisoner *after* becoming Connor's tutor, my intial assumption was that Loghain had sent men to ensure Jowan couldn't incriminate him.

[eschilde]

Default137 wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Implying that you and Duncan passed through Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar, and Eamon was in fact, quite well indeed, considering the map of Ferelden, Jowan would have most likely either been heading to the Forests to hide, the mountains to hide, or since he's kind of slow, Denerim to hide, this would put him in the total opposite direction of Ostagar and Redcliffe.

If that were the case, Isolde would know you were a Warden when you go to Redcliffe. It's far more likely that Duncan saw Eamon prior to recruiting you, and you went directly to Ostagar afterwards.

Very true, hadn't thought of that, however Isolde does seem kind of ditzy, and would have had alot of stuff on her plate due to the fact she just found out her only son could cast Magic, so I doubt she would have had alot of time to meet with Duncan and his newest crazy person, especially if she was desperatly looking for someone to tutor Conner.

She was desperately trying to hide Connor's abilities from Eamon, so she would have still been going about her normal duties, which include entertaining guests of high stature, such as Grey Wardens. They are treated with respect by Fereldan nobility, as is evidenced by his treatment in the HN origin. Not to mention, no matter which origin you come from, you would be easily distinguishable. HN- you're a Cousland. DC- you're a branded dwarf. DN- you're an Aeducan. CE- you're an elf who rose to the position of Warden. DE- you're an elf who rose to the position of Warden and very likely hostile to humans. Isolde also recognizes Alistair, despite the fact that he's aged several years since she last saw him, so it's not like she's completely lost her wits.

[thegreateski]

I can prove that Cailan got himself killed.



You know how the King's army charges the Darkspawn when they appear from the woods? Why did they break ranks? FOR FERELDEN! That's why.



They could have just held that small pass spartan style while archers and ballistas rained death from above. Then Loghain's boys would encircle the Darkspawn and crush them. Even if Loghain didn't show up they could have made an easy retreat or perhaps even won.

Better yet, destroy the bridge above the pass and kill the darkspawn as they come over the rubble. Much easier.



OK, I'm done ranting.

[eschilde]

Ulicus wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Maybe she was washing her hair when they came to visit? Still, either way, travel time between Redcliffe and Ostagar isn't instantaneous and there would be time for Eamon to fall ill/get poisoned after Duncan left and before Ostagar.

Honestly, though, I think the game itself is confused about the poisoning issue and the timeframe is really wonky whatever way you want to look at it. IIRC, in the Redcliffe story itself it's implied that Jowan was hired as a poisoner *because* of his position as Connor's tutor, not hired to poison Eamon and then sent to offer his services as a tutor.

That might be feasible, except that Jowan and the templar in Howe's dungeon both say he was captured and taken away by the teyrn's men, at which point Loghain tasked him to poison the Arl in return for having his name cleared with the Circle.

Well, if you wanted to be pedantic (and I do), you could argue that this occured after the events at Redcliffe. I agree that it's probably intended to be the point where Loghain tasks him to poison the Arl but that's never actually stated. We're just told that Templars had Jowan in custody, they were ambushed/killed/captured by the Teyrn's men, and then they didn't see him again.

When I first played the game, since I had sent Jowan back to the Circle and remembering the implication that Jowan had been hired as a poisoner *after* becoming Connor's tutor, my intial assumption was that Loghain had sent men to ensure Jowan couldn't incriminate him.

Wait, so you think Jowan ran away from the tower, insinuated himself as Connor's tutor at Redcliffe, then got caught by the Templars, who were attacked by Loghain's men, who captured Jowan and alerted Loghain, who tasked Jowan to go back to Redcliffe to poison the Arl?

Modifié par eschilde, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:16 .

[Ulicus]

eschilde wrote...

Wait, so you think Jowan ran away from the tower, insinuated himself as Connor's tutor at Redcliffe, then got caught by the Templars, who were attacked by Loghain's men, who captured Jowan and alerted Loghain, who tasked Jowan to go back to Redcliffe to poison the Arl?

Uh, no. I'm not sure where you got that order from.

My initial thoughts were:

- Jowan ran away from the tower
- Jowan successfully eludes the Templars (no phylactery, after all)
- Isolde gives Jowan safe harbour in exchange for him tutoring her son in secret
- Loghain approaches the latest addition to the Guerrin household with the plot to poison the Arl
- Jowan poisons the Arl
- All the crazy **** goes down
- Jowan talks about Loghain being the guy who hired him
- Jowan is sent back to the Circle of Magi
- The Templars escorting Jowan back are ambushed/killed/captured by Loghain's men
- Jowan is... killed/captured/****ed up

I wasn't under the impression anyone knew about Connor being a mage, you see. Especially not Loghain. So his capturing a mage to then send to Isolde to offer his services as Connor's tutor seemed... weird. Again, that may be the intention, it just felt a little off. 

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:24 .

[eschilde]

Ulicus wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Wait, so you think Jowan ran away from the tower, insinuated himself as Connor's tutor at Redcliffe, then got caught by the Templars, who were attacked by Loghain's men, who captured Jowan and alerted Loghain, who tasked Jowan to go back to Redcliffe to poison the Arl?

Uh, no. I'm not sure where you got that order from.

My initial thoughts were:

- Jowan ran away from the tower
- Jowan successfully eludes the Templars
- Isolde gives Jowan safe harbour in exchange for him tutoring her son in secret
- Loghain approaches Jowan with the plot to poison the Arl
- Jowan poisons the Arl
- All the crazy **** goes down
- Jowan talks about Loghain being the guy who hired him
- Jowan is sent back to the Circle of Magi
- The Templars escorting Jowan back are ambushed/killed/captured by Loghain's men
- Jowan is... killed/captured/****ed up

Ah, that makes more sense, which is why I asked. But, Jowan says he was caught and held before Loghain approached him about poisoning the Arl, and Isolde says that Loghain recommended Jowan.

[Ulicus]

Oh! Right then, I don't remember any of that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.   Thanks for clearing it up.

Though Loghain being Isolde's source seems weird. Why would they be pally enough (she's not only Orlesian, but the daughter of the Puppet Arl who ruled Redcliffe while the Guerrins were in exile) for her to tell him that she needed a tutor for her hidden mage son? Ah, well. Ne'ermind.

Edit: Though, now you've mentioned it, the bit about Jowan talking about being held beforehand sounds pretty familar. I just forgot about it, I guess. One of the downsides of the console version is I can't do my old KotOR trick of browsing a dialog.tlk file whenever I feel like it.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:31 .

[eschilde]

Ulicus wrote...

Oh! Right then, I don't remember any of that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.   Thanks for clearing it up.

Though Loghain being Isolde's source seems weird. Why would they be pally enough (she's not only Orlesian, but the daughter of the Puppet Arl who ruled Redcliffe while the Guerrins were in exile) for her to tell him that she needed a tutor for her hidden mage son? Ah, well. Ne'ermind.

Edit: Though, now you've mentioned it, the bit about Jowan talking about being held beforehand sounds pretty familar. I just forgot about it, I guess. One of the downsides of the console version is I can't do my old KotOR trick of browsing a dialog.tlk file whenever I feel like it.

I agree with the thing about her being Orlesian, but I've thought about that too and it's pretty likely that Isolde would have been working hard to prove that she was loyal to Fereldan rather than Orlais. Part of that could include that she was sharing something very personal with Loghain, as an way of extending a hand in friendship. It's also possible that she was just an idiot and didn't know.

[robertthebard]

Default137 wrote...

Problem with the whole Eamon thing is, Duncan says as you enter Ostagar.

"My King, Eamon wished us to remind you that his forces can be here in about a week" ( or something like that )

Implying that you and Duncan passed through Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar, and Eamon was in fact, quite well indeed, considering the map of Ferelden, Jowan would have most likely either been heading to the Forests to hide, the mountains to hide, or since he's kind of slow, Denerim to hide, this would put him in the total opposite direction of Ostagar and Redcliffe.

So saying Loghain poisoned Eamon well before Ostagar, or even during Ostagar is a fair stretch indeed, as many have pointed out through the game, travel in Ferelden takes months, and I think people would have suspicions had Loghain disappeared for two months during battle planning.

As for Loghain saying he thought the plan was suicidal, and that it would not work, and that he did not have much of a hand in it, he says these things to Wynne and the Warden if you let him live, and talk to him in the endgame about Ostagar, of course, you could just say he's lying through his teeth at that point, but what reason would he have to lie?

*edit* The Civil War does not start until you save Eamon, Teagen says a bit to Loghain about how the Bann will not bow, however the actual fighting DOES NOT start until Eamon is saved, you will not meet any soldiers in the wilderness, nobody says anything about fighting going on on either side, and Howe makes NO mention of a Civil War actually starting until after the Urn quest.

There may be some minor skirmishes sure, because a few people are unhappy with what happened, and are suspicious, but saying a Civil War was already going is just not true from what we saw, all that had happened prior to that was a few Banns argued with Loghain, thats it.

And yes, I typed out a paragraph, and messed up on one persons relatives lines, please try using this as evidence that I am obviously wrong in every way some more, and that none of the people in the game saying the battle was lost no matter what happened, that Loghain was just acting as he normally would do to his paranoia, and that he and Anora are in fact totally evil to the core, want nothing but to conquer Thedas, and lie to you with every sentence, rather then them possibly being well made villans with reasons behind their actions like Saren.

Just as easy to presume that he went to Redcliffe first, and recruited Jory, perhaps?  Jory is from Redcliffe.  The fact that Eamon says, once he's recovered, that they may have to surrender to Loghain means that there must be something up?  I realize this really shoots holes in what you want to present, however, we should stick to facts, instead of suppositions.  The fact is, if there's no war, there's nothing to surrender to.  We learn from one of Eamon's knights in Lothering that Eamon had been sick since before Ostagar.  This is in game.  It is a cutscene, but it is a cutscene dialog with the PC.  You can choose to ignore this, but that doesn't change it from happening.

I call your attention, once again, to the infamous "Royal Welcome" cutscene, the one where Cailin has to cut it short because Loghain is waiting eagerly to bore Cailin with his strategies.  Then again, at the strategy meeting after the Joining, where Cailin tells Loghain to speak his strategy.  Again, you can choose to ignore this as well, if you want, but it won't make it go away.  With these gaping holes in your story, all taken from in game dialog, how can you see it any other way?  Loghain was a hero, was.  He is no longer the hero that people think they know.

[Wrathra]

robertthebard wrote...

Just as easy to presume that he went to Redcliffe first, and recruited Jory, perhaps?  Jory is from Redcliffe. 

Jory said he was recruited in Highever, since he was staying up there with his wife. Said the Bann (which makes no sense, since Highever has a Teyrn, but whatever) held a tournament and he won the grand melee.

Alot of the timeline is all fudged up. bleh. Carry on!!

Modifié par Wrathra, 05 janvier 2010 - 03:42 .

[jon 45]

It's like talking to a wall. Or walls. In-game info has it that:

a) Isolde asked Loghain for help with Connor
Loghain's men captured Jowan and the Templar(s) guarding him
c) Loghain convinced Jowan to kill Eamon
d) Loghain sent Jowan to Redcliffe in answer to a)
e) all of this happened before the battle at Ostagar

Modifié par jon 45, 05 janvier 2010 - 06:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LOGHIAN:


Get it now? Bad.



The timeline jon 45 posted is the correct one. Not only do we have confirmatiosn from in-game dialogue, but WORD OF GOD confirms it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:49 .

[Asylumer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LOGHIAN:


Get it now? Bad.

http://en.wikipedia....tio_ad_Hitlerum

[Xandurpein]

Asylumer wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....tio_ad_Hitlerum

You are a man after my heart Asylumer. Thank you! 

Modifié par Xandurpein, 05 janvier 2010 - 09:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Asylumer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LOGHIAN:


Get it now? Bad.

http://en.wikipedia....tio_ad_Hitlerum

Not really. But even if it was, it's usually used by those who are loosing a debate. In this case, the facts are clearly on the side of the "Loghains fault" camp.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not really. But even if it was, it's usually used by those who are loosing a debate. In this case, the facts are clearly on the side of the "Loghains fault" camp.

...and so, at that point, as someone that is in the Loghain's at fault camp, please stop posting this tripe.  You are detracting from the discussion, not adding to it:

From the article...
In following this movement towards its end we shall inevitably reach a point beyond which the scene is darkened by the shadow of Hitler. Unfortunately, it does not go without saying that in our examination we must avoid the fallacy that in the last decades has frequently been used as a substitute for the reductio ad absurdum: the reductio ad Hitlerum. A view is not refuted by the fact that it happens to have been shared by Hitler.

This is all you have done with your post.  You have not added anything to the discussion, you have simply begun to look desperate to prove a point.  We, the rest of the thread, have no need of desperation.  What evidence we can present is presented to all in game.  It is self supporting and there is no need to fall into Godwin's Law.  On all the forums that I belong to this is considered bad form.

[bobsmyuncle]

robertthebard wrote...

From the article...
In following this movement towards its end we shall inevitably reach a point beyond which the scene is darkened by the shadow of Hitler. Unfortunately, it does not go without saying that in our examination we must avoid the fallacy that in the last decades has frequently been used as a substitute for the reductio ad absurdum: the reductio ad Hitlerum. A view is not refuted by the fact that it happens to have been shared by Hitler.

This is all you have done with your post.  You have not added anything to the discussion, you have simply begun to look desperate to prove a point.  We, the rest of the thread, have no need of desperation.  What evidence we can present is presented to all in game.  It is self supporting and there is no need to fall into Godwin's Law.  On all the forums that I belong to this is considered bad form.

Seriously. That picture of Loghain is on par with criticizing the president by pasting a square mustache on his photo. You're adding nothing to the discourse, Lotion. I agree that Loghain has done terrible things, but can we save the Hitler comparisons for people who are, say, implementing systematic genocide?

Back to the topic at hand...

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Late plot alterations could have caused inconsistencies in the Eamon poisoning timeline.

I
can't remember if Loghain and Cailan are meant to already be at Ostager
at the time the mage origin is happening. If so I can't see Loghain
having the opportunity to oversee the capture of Jowan and then
recommend him to Isolde.

They are, they received the
mages and were dismayed that only seven were sent. The mage PC can ask
why Duncan came to request more mages instead of Cailan himself and
Duncan says Cailan is busy managing his troops at Ostagar. This being the case, for Loghain to have met Jowan and arranged for him to poison Eamon prior to the battle at Ostagar he would have had to leave to do so, and you'd think there'd be gossip about his absence given that his guards are willing to tell you just about anything else he does.

I get that Word of God says Eamon's illness occurs prior to Ostagar, it just doesn't seem to jive with the mage origin.

[Sabriana]

It could also be possible that the Arl got a legit illness, and Jowan poisons him under the guise of helping him. I mean, the game is generous enough to let us insert all of our own hypotheses.

[Auridesion]

I know I'm committing a horrible forum crime with this post, but I'm going to do it anyway.  I'm only responding to the first post, without really taking the time to read through the rest of this thread, because I'm having an immediate reaction based on what was established/asked in it:

- Did Loghain really plan out Ostagar in an attempt to kill Cailan, or did he leave due to his paranoia, and Cailan was the one who came up with everything, against Loghains wishes. From the way the game makes it look, Cailan came up with everything in an attempt to get glory, and when Loghain realized he could not change Cailans mind, he decided to just leave him behind.
- How was the battle going when the tower was lit, from what we managed to see in the cutscene, it was going very badly, however, this could have been showing us what happened to the battlefield due to Loghains abscense, and could have actually been a long time after the tower was lit. From what Wynne and Loghain imply, the battle, and in a way Duncan and Cailan were doomed from the very start.

When you first arrive at Ostagar, if you don't immediately cross the bridge to get to the camp, and you go talk to the guard at the Tower of Ishal, he tells you that it is off limits by order of Teryn Loghain.  If you exhaust the dialogue tree with him, he mentions something about the teryn's men clearing out "lower chambers" that the guard didn't recall seeing himself when he'd been in there.  My interpretation for why the tower was invaded with darkspawn when PC-Warden and Alistair go there to light the signal is that Loghain never really intended to wait for the signal, and was possibly doing something in the tower to either ensure that the beacon was not lit (in order to blame the lack of the signal for his absense) or that if it was lit, it would be too-little-too-late for him to acually charge and he could use the excuse he does use: that he saved his men from joining a battle they could not win.

I will emphasize that it is my interpretation of the events at Ostagar, but I doubt it very much if Loghain would opt for a plan he didn't believe had any chance of sucess unless he specifically did not want it to have a chance.  Having said that, regardless of who came up with the battle, I believe it was Loghains intention all along to see the battle fail one way or another.  If Cailan planned the battle and Loghain didn't think it would work, then he betrayed the king and the Wardens by agreeing to see it through. 

As for whether I think Cailan planned the battle... during the meeting with Duncan, Cailan and Loghain that you attend after the joining, there is more dialogue which supports the notion that it was Loghain's strategy.  Cailan asks Loghain to speak his strategy, and then interrupts him with an oh-yeah-now-I-remember comment.  Supporting my interpretation (not to say that it's the right one), when Cailan asks who will light the signal, Loghain mentions that he has men stationed there, and that it isn't a dangerous task, but a vital one -- which suggests to me that a) Cailan wasn't really the mastermind behind this plan, and that Loghain already had specific intentions regarding this particular "vital" task in the strategy (since it was going to be his excuse for retreating if the beacon remained unlit, and/or was lit to late. 

[My apologies if I've pretty much said what someone else has said already.]