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How to end DAIII and avoid the mistakes of ME3


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#26
DPSSOC

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Dasher1010 wrote...
1. Give players a real final boss. Somebody who's been an antagonist for most of the game.


Why?  What is so necessary about a boss fight?

Dasher1010 wrote...
2. Think about the things that the EC fixed. An epilogue with slides that show the impact of choices is practically mandatory.


Why?  Keep in mind DA2 had 1 choice with consequences outside Kirkwall and they covered it, for like the whole game.  The others we experience for ourselves.

Dasher1010 wrote...
3. Don't bring in any new characters right at the end. The ending should be about closure, not introductions.


Unless they want a tie-in to the next game.  DA:O had to end clean because they weren't sure there'd be a sequel (same as ME1), but DA2 was left open, I'm guessing, because DA3 had already been given the go ahead.

#27
Redbelle

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DPSSOC wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
1. Give players a real final boss. Somebody who's been an antagonist for most of the game.


Why?  What is so necessary about a boss fight?

Dasher1010 wrote...
2. Think about the things that the EC fixed. An epilogue with slides that show the impact of choices is practically mandatory.


Why?  Keep in mind DA2 had 1 choice with consequences outside Kirkwall and they covered it, for like the whole game.  The others we experience for ourselves.

Dasher1010 wrote...
3. Don't bring in any new characters right at the end. The ending should be about closure, not introductions.


Unless they want a tie-in to the next game.  DA:O had to end clean because they weren't sure there'd be a sequel (same as ME1), but DA2 was left open, I'm guessing, because DA3 had already been given the go ahead.


1. Boss fights are not how games end. they simply mark the end of the player interaction phase portion of the game. The end will usually go to a cutscene shortly after.

Boss fights are usually, or should be, against an enemy who is the biggest bad in the game. The big bad will usually put himself in this position by taking a stance that is detrimental to those around him on ethical and moral grounds. Seriously. This is "the" endgame of alot of games and movies. The final righting of wrongs etc etc. If the game ends and the origin of all wrongs hasn't been vanquished then the story has breached rules of writing pertaining to how to bring about the end game. (note that rules of writing is similar to the rules of writing music. Mozart was considered abit of a punk in his time, but the flair and style at which he followed and broke the rules of writing music, to effect that the music was enhanced rather than diminished, made him a household name).

2: I think the developers can do a little better than that.

3: The matrix.......... number 1. Best movie of the trilogy. The brothers who made it had a 3 movie arc plan. But were told to write and develop the Matrix as if it would only be the only movie. It kinda shows as 2 and 3 feed into each other more and loses the plot a bit. That farewell death scene with Trinity? "Kiss Me" as she's dying? Went on for to long and induced much yawning. Not to be mean but if the brothers had developed that scene in the same way as they developed the scenes from ME1 they would have cut out alot of fat, had a final farwell and seen our hero go off to do battle.

And don't get me started on Matrix 2's "To be continued" ending. The brothers clearly mixed up the world of movies with the world of serial TV shows.

Stll not convinced? Read the X-Wing novel series. The books have a recurring plot in them but are treated as stand alone titles that resolve the plot while feeding into a greater narrative.

Maybe we need to look at the "To be continued" thing from a different angle. A resolved plot, to marketer's of a franchise, is, idealogically, not likely to attract consumers to the next part of the story. Whereas the idea of, "Leave them hanging for more", is more likely to bring in customers. This makes sense but there is a problem with this style of thinking.

By not having standalone plot resolutions the developers are not creating art. They are creating product. the difference? Hideo Kojima once said that he would never port MGS1 onto newer consoles. He made the game he wanted and was moving on. Art is never finished, only abandoned and by refusing to abandon plot's within narrative's story developers will write themselves into corners to the point where plot and narrative no longer hold our attention, or become so overblown that the only resolution that can be concieved is ridiculous and out of context with all that came before.

Modifié par Redbelle, 03 novembre 2012 - 10:36 .


#28
philippe willaume

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hello
Poor exposition and contextualization was the problem with ME:3.
Getting the Space Brat at the last minute was not a bad idea and what the endings do to the world was fine.
the snag was that in most of the play through, the ending had no real connection with what Shepard actually did.
the Extended cut fixed that.
and it fixed the lack of closure for team members still alive. what made the lack of closure excruciating is that that team members that dies have very good death scene.

The argument that closure and tie in for the next game are mutually exclusive is a straw man argument.
the way DA:0 ends is still pretty open and you can thread every non dead character back to any new story.
All you need to do is have that character mention (or prompt him to mention by dialogue) what he is doing here and reference the previous epilogue as a plan for his/her future or something he/she has done or is still doing.

for DA:2
when you compare ActIII to ActI and ACTII it it has a feel of "please, please take it off me, make it stop, make it stop" production phase.

We don't need to influence the outcome of an event but as a player we shape it and it is this shaping that need to be acknowledged.

IE the Arishok will take the same course of action regarding Kirkwall but how he reacts to Hawke is a result of what Hawke did before. yes having the possibility not to kill him is the culmination of that.

I know it is not the case but those two ending have an after taste of Friday English night out at 02:00 in the morning.


Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 03 novembre 2012 - 10:41 .


#29
coldflame

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Foolsfolly wrote...

You'd have to try really hard to out-do the terribleness of ME3's original ending.


Lol, have you never heard the saying "history always repeats itself"?. Let's hope I am wrong in this case.

#30
Bfler

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dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.


You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.

#31
Felya87

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I don't understand people who don't want the chance to have an "happy ending". first thing, is an option.

second, why a happy endind, or, at least, a non dead protagonist should't be for adult? I know people who are sixty and watch only old disney's movies because they prefer the happy ending than the sad ones.

real life is already full of drama and sadness, why should people play a game only to cry at the end? if I want to cry, I would just read the news on a newspaper or on tv. or I simply look at my love life. XD

however, a "happy" ending should be a chance. maybe the arder one, or the etically more difficult as in DA:O, but it should be an option.

it'a game, after all, and people should have fun with the story. all the fun go to hell, if people is forced to be sad, because is more emotional this way. not all people love to see the protagonist die just for the pathos (no matter the media).
I have made once the ultimate sacriface, so I sometimes like the dramatic ending, but usually I find real life already too much depressing, so I want at least my fictional character to be happy.

#32
Fredward

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An ending. That's the only thing that's lacking I think. And I would prefer it to be bittersweet instead of glitter and sugar but as long as there is some kind of closure I'll be happy.

#33
Edhriano

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An ending that is equally satisfying and rewarding according to the protagonist decision
trough out the game, and please a 'real' reason not just another lame 'the inquisitor is killing
mages so mages won't be kill by other inquisitor'. :( :crying:

Seriously ....

Modifié par Edhriano, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:15 .


#34
Melra

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Oh look.. it's another thread about ME3 endings again. They should definitely add something similar to DA3 simply to tick uptight people off. That's all you can do to those people it seems. It's been so long since the game came out and they're still moaning about it like crazy.

#35
Redbelle

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Bfler wrote...

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.


You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.


Bleeeeugh! I saved Steve! No Arrrrrrgghhhhhh! from my Ashley. Now not to sound condencending but ME is not a book. it is an interactive video game that brings movie style narrative to the fore. Our actions dictate events, sometimes in obvous ways, sometimes not so obvious. So for BW to pull any prospect of a happy ending from the final product is............ well, it's mean spirited. The work I put into resolving the Reaper problem should dictate the level of ending I get.

BW have already given us a mechanism to out this into perspective. Get a high EMS, get synthesis. Get a low EMS, don't get synthesis. In preparing the galaxy for the final smackdown and pumping MP characters into the zone my EMS has gone through the roof. Yet, BW have put this intangible cap on our efforts that all but says. "It's useless Shepard. Just pick a colour. Nothing else matters!"

This is Bioware, and that's their end game?

But back to the topic of DA3. The journey undertaken, and the efforts exerted during the game, must influence the ending. If this was any other company than BW I woldn't say this. But BW have made this sort of thing their stock and trade. To retreat from what makes them unique in the world of competitive game development would be foolish.

Modifié par Redbelle, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:25 .


#36
Wulfram

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The ending should react in visible ways to the choices made on the way. It shouldn't be it's own thing effectively seperate from everything else.

The visible part is important - one of the major problems with EMS is that you never really see it working, since unless you've done a fail run you never really get a sense that you're getting a better ending than you could have. ME2's system of buying upgrades for your ship really wasn't a particularly exciting one, but at least it made sure that you felt grateful that you bought them.

Also, the ending shouldn't feel the need to force in a Big Final Choice if it doesn't. If we have to choose, better that it react to the stuff you've done earlier.

I don't think a "final boss" is necessary, and to be honest I don't think Bioware generally does very good final bosses anyway - the combat style doesn't really fit. But I might be tempted to play it safe and include one if I was them.

I don't think epilogue slides are mandatory. I think DA:O could have done without them, at least for living Wardens - the post game chats with companions and significant characters provided enough in the way of closure by itself. Just don't leave us devoid of information about our companions future, or at least their plans for it.

#37
BrowncoatN7

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*self-censor*, do I have to stay away from everything on the internet to avoid ACIII spoilers? :( Thanks a lot.

I don't really care about a final boss fight, it's not a prerequisite for a good ending, I agree about closure, I want to know what happened to my character and her companions, and I agree completely that they shouldn't bring in a new, very important, character within the last five minutes and expect us to consider it a brilliant plot twist.

#38
eye basher

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Final boss like that wuss archdemon in origins that was a waste of time the high dragon was a better fight and it was optional.

#39
frostajulie

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Killer3000ad wrote...

All Bioware has to do is look at ME3's ending and AVOID doing anything that it did. That means no deus ex machinas, no red, blue and green pill options that are really the player agreeing with the enemy's logic, no stinking ghost child from nowhere, no bittersweet ending for the sake of it, and above all, THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.

And when I mean HAPPY I mean you don't shaft your allies or the universe in some way, and you get to end up with your love interest.

TLDR; Don't do what ME3's ending did!


Yes I want the option for a happy ending I may not be a child but I am also not a sidist I will not willingly play 30+ hours in a videogame just to end up feeling angry despairing and depressed.

I want to end the game on a **** yeah I am the ultimate bad ass note.

#40
Guest_simfamUP_*

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Good I didn't catch that AC spoiler.

Anyway...

I think BioWare knows how to end their games properly. One horrifically bad ending doesn't override every other good ending they've done... and they've done quite a lot.

#41
Gileadan

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Good I never played AC after the horrible first game. Heh. Anyway.

I think whether a game should have a happy ending depends on the overall mood of the story being told. Some stories are so gloomy that a happy ending is almost impossible, and in that case, there shouldn't be one.

Most of all, an ending should provide closure, so no cliffhanger, no "to be continued", and especially no "hero disappears. Post campaign DLC soon!" stuff. A cliffhanger could be tolerable if it leads to a soon-to-be-released expansion, but it would need to be out before people stopped caring.

#42
Guest_IIDovahChiiefII_*

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Honestly long as they dont listen to most of the community it should be fine, but the few pointers made.which are common sense, hopefully where already thought of

#43
TheJediSaint

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Without trying to be too didactic, because I do believe Bioware's writers know what they're about, I would say that the problem with ME3's ending was that it was not consistent with the rest of the game's story. So long as DA3's ending is consistent with the story being told (sad, happy, or bittersweet), then it should be fine.

Given that I think both DAO and DA2's ending suited each game's story just fine (though DA2's was a bit abrupt for my taste). I'm confident that the DA writing team will make something that either leaves me feeling good. Or hurts me really good.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:34 .


#44
Terrorize69

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DA is not a trilogy and DA3 is not the end of an existing story, plot arc yes but not story.

So your 3 pointers about what a ending should/shouldn't have. Are irrelevant.

#45
FenrirBlackDragon

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Bfler wrote...

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.


You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.



I agree, it does sound arrogant. There have been plenty of books that I had to read or were reccomended to me as "good literature" and had unhappy endings. *cough* Bridge to Teribithia, Walk Two Moons, among others. *Cough* I do read, by the way. And not everything I like has a happy ending. I like endings that fit the story, at least to me.

Case in Point, "The Dark Knight" movie. The ending was quite sad to me for Batman, but considering the events of the movie and the direction it seemed to be following, it seemed like a logical conclusion.  I was satisfied. 

The endings were the least of my concerns with said books, but the endings just added to it. Itwasn't because they were unhappy, it was because they were forced JUST to make the story look more mature and realistic. But, it's a linear story where you don't get a say.  I say the ending  for a game like DA3 is whatever of the endings the players finds most fitting of the choices, whether they be happy or unhappy. But the issue with the original ending is they all seemed the same, which seemed counterproductive to many people.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. :wizard:

#46
DarkKnightHolmes

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You have to really really really high or "artistic" to go even worse than ME3 ending.

#47
Reofeir

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If I see a final boss that is just to be a final boss in DA3, I will murder knife everyone. Anyways, yeah a final boss for this game would be nice, but only if it fits. If there is no point to a *final* boss, at least have a very fun boss fight for people somewhat before the ending (before final level of the game) so fans that want a challenge get one.

Modifié par Zenor, 03 novembre 2012 - 05:05 .


#48
Realmzmaster

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Bfler wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Witcher 2 did not require Geralt to fight the final Boss?


Saskia is the final boss. Everything after that is epiloque.

With that, I would be ok with every type of boss, except of a dragon. Most fantasy games of the last years had a Dragon as final enemy (Amalur, DAO, Skyrim, Two Worlds 2, the mentioned Witcher 2, World of Warcraft Cat Exp. etc..)


Letho is the final boss. Geralt can allow him to leave or fight him to the death. The epilogue is part of the game. Just like in PST the Nameless One can decide whether or not to fight the final boss. Meeting the final boss does not always have to end in a fight.

#49
Twisted Path

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On the one hand it's perfectly possible to make a good ending for a video game that isn't happy. On the other hand I have very little faith that the Bioware who made Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 could pull that off. I almost wish they would just play it safe, stick to what they know and remake Knights of the Old Republic for the fourth time.

#50
abaris

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Big difference between ME3 and DAIII. Whilst I'm keeping the ball low when it comes to my expectations, it's not as if you had one character you nursed through three games to be shown the middle finger in the end.

As far as I can see, you will get the third character in the third game. It still can be an unlogical end with plot holes galore, but it's not the same kind of attachement being part of the deal as with ME3.