121 réponses à ce sujet

[Potato Cat]

The difference between DA3 and ME3 is that DA3 isn't (supposed to be) the last game. Therefore a cliffhanger, a new character introduction, or whatever, isn't entirely out of the question and wouldn't warrant an Extended Cut. That and Dragon Age is inherently far superior to Mass Effect in every way, but that's just my opinion.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Bfler wrote...

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.

You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.

Agree, I  want an OPTIONS for a happy or upbeat ending, a bittersweet ending, and a "Thedas is screwed thanks to the PC" type ending. What is the problem with having multiple different endings?   

[abaris]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Agree, I  want an OPTIONS for a happy or upbeat ending, a bittersweet ending, and a "Thedas is screwed thanks to the PC" type ending. What is the problem with having multiple different endings?   

It should be a must for everything calling itself RPG. One ending is only acceptable for a shooter or something along these lines. Every game having a story should feature the results of making choices.

[Potato Cat]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Bfler wrote...

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.

You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.

Agree, I  want an OPTIONS for a happy or upbeat ending, a bittersweet ending, and a "Thedas is screwed thanks to the PC" type ending. What is the problem with having multiple different endings?   

But does a "happy ending" really suit Thedas? Especially when there is the possibility of future games. Even the best ending in Origins had some bad things going on in the epilogue. That doesn't mean there can't be lighter elements to it, but to say "Yay! Nothing bad could ever possibly happen again! Now let's all join hands!" would just be awful. There needs to be some possible conflict for future games. But as long as there are multiple endings, I'll be fine, just not the DA2 ending.

[Ghostjs]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Letho is the final boss. Geralt can allow him to leave or fight him to the death. The epilogue is part of the game. Just like in PST the Nameless One can decide whether or not to fight the final boss. Meeting the final boss does not always have to end in a fight.

I was just thinking the same thing when reading this thread. The end boss doesn't have to be a fight but I still feel that you need to triumph over them in some way. Imagine if you could have redeemed Malak instead of fighting him, or if your choices at the landsmeet would have convinced Loghain to come to your side.

[abaris]

Elfman wrote...

But does a "happy ending" really suit Thedas? Especially when there is the possibility of future games. Even the best ending in Origins had some bad things going on in the epilogue. That doesn't mean there can't be lighter elements to it, but to say "Yay! Nothing bad could ever possibly happen again! Now let's all join hands!" would just be awful. There needs to be some possible conflict for future games. But as long as there are multiple endings, I'll be fine, just not the DA2 ending.

There's happy with rosy elephants and unicorns and there's another kind of happy.

Happy, in my book, means some kind of achievement. If you're screwed no matter what, the game is for the bin, since there's no incentive for replayability. That was obviously the main concern with the ME3 endings.

[xsdob]

1. Doesn't really matter, ME3 would have been fine with just the illusive man confrontation and suffered no real problems with not having a boss. It was the catalyst that pissed in everyones cofffe.

2. Yes, I completely agree.

3. Not necessarily, if they make it set up where the next game will deal with them and their inclusion doesn't hurt the lore, I don't see a problem with it.

[samgurl775]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Bfler wrote...

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.

You sound a bit arrogant. Because you don't like it, this must not mean, that other people don't have the right to such an OPTION.

Agree, I  want an OPTIONS for a happy or upbeat ending, a bittersweet ending, and a "Thedas is screwed thanks to the PC" type ending. What is the problem with having multiple different endings?   

This is what I want. And epilogue slides.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

[Realmzmaster]

I do not understand the need for epilogue slides if the story answers all the points in game. The letters in DA2 served that purpose except it did it at different points in the game instead of the end.

As Mr. Schumacher states what is the definition of happy, bitter or bittersweet endings? Is it a happy ending if the PC and LI live and all the companions die if the other options are that all companions plus the LI die or everyone dies including the PC to save Thedas?

[esper]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

You know the defition of bitersweet is bitter and sweet, if it was pure bitter it would have been a downer ending, but on the other hand I don't think we are ever going to agree what constitute a happy ending.

For me da:o was perfectly happy ending and da2 was bitterdsweet with mostly sweet. Da:o because the ogb still and always will for my warden feel like a get of out jail for free card, and in da2 my Hawke was so much pro-mage that the start of a war didn't really like a hundred percent bad thing. 

Modifié par esper, 03 novembre 2012 - 07:41 .

[abaris]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

For me happy basically means a sense of achievement. And when playing an RPG it also means several outcomes based on my actions. If I screw up I have no problem with my character dying. If I'm doing everything right I feel kind of cheated when I still hit the dust.

[TheJediSaint]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

For me, a happy ending is when the protagonist achieves their goals without suffering any great loss.   In a bittersweet ending, the protagonist achives their goal, but is badly hurt in some way.  Either they' died, someone important to the died, or they don't get the credit or are indeed villfied for their heroism.   A sad ending is one where the protagonist does not succeed.

[DadeLeviathan]

This is essentially how all RPGs should end. Face off against main antagonist (doesn't have to be a boss fight, in fact Boss fights can be the ruin of many video game endings. Just a face off). followed by denouement, and never introduce new elements, characters or concepts within the end.

This is the main reason why I consider the Deus Ex HR ending BETTER than the ME3 ending (even though I consider both to be piles of poorly written trash. Yes, even with the EC). Deus Ex HR had an ending that built upon concepts that the team at least TRIED to present throughout the narrative. New characters were not introduced (apart from the incredibly STUPID 'zombie' level. Seriously, whoever thought that was a good idea... i have no words), and new concepts were not introduced. Of course, it completely destroyed the whole point of your journey, because regardless of what choices you made, how you played, etc, all of the endings were the same, and you got the option of all of them.

Compare that to a game like ME3, where the ending -- quite literally -- feels like it came from a different game that just magically happened to have an enemy named reapers. It not only introduced a new characters, but new themes, concepts and ideologies that were --at best -- only ancillary ideas throughout the series, and never major themes. It's like building a house, and then pointing to a stud and saying, "THIS IS THE HOUSE."

Modifié par DadeLeviathan, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Realmzmaster]

One point I do not want is a contrived happy ending for the sake of having a happy ending. Sometimes a happy ending is not possible and one is left with the choice of the best possible ending among bad or bittersweet choices.

IMHO, the dark ritual is a contrived happy ending especially since Bioware can do nothing with the OGB story without a retcon or making a choice canon.

My idea of a happy ending is that the PC gets to walk away with his/her life hopefully succeeding somewhat at the task at hand.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:13 .

[Dagr88]

There can't be "happy ending" if there is a conflict in the world. In DA:O Warden killed Archdemon, ended the Blight and did many other colorfully moral things, but darkspawn didn't disappear in to the thin air, mages vs templars conflict is still going on. It 's also mentioned that Qun is planning to invade/convert whole Thedas...

Unless developers will try to permanently resolve those conflicts any sugar coated rainbowlishes happy ending will only apply for the protagonist.

That's one of my problems with ME ending. Most of the galaxy conflicts are resolved and the only protagonist is dead... That's like 2 funerals for 1 game universe. (The Green ending almost gave me sour sugar diabetes... And I refuse to call that bittersweet)

Modifié par Dagr88, 03 novembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[mousestalker]

It should end like this.

[xAmilli0n]

Stick to lore, don't introduce something in the last minute that has not been foreshadowed, and stick to your vision. Make sure the player feels accomplished. Happy/Bittersweet/Sad is very subjective, and I feel writers shouldn't try to cater to players by going for a specific feel. Just end the story correctly and completely. If that means its sad, so be it. And of course, closure. Let us see the consequences of the ending. Even if its only suggested, we need something after we have so much time invested in a game.

These are my opinions after having sat through ME3, been part of the negative reaction, and looking back on it several months later.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The ending should make sense, plain and simple.

Video game writers should be less concerned with 'breaking narrative ground' and trying to be esoteric or overly deep and more concerned with the lore they have created. This is much more important for a video game, since it takes dozens of hours for a player to get through one game (not to mention that total is over 100+ hours, easily, by the third game in that game world).

A book or movie is paltry by comparison. The ability to pull a 'twist' or tragedy that is seen as artistic is much easier to do because the entertainment is both more passive and less time demanding. Sin e much more time has been spent building up the narrative structure, having an ending that comes out of left field and bulldozes the concepts, themes and foreshadowing done to date is jarring to the absolute extreme.

[Zobo]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

Happy = PC and his/her LI are alive and well, goal achived, characters PC really liked are alive (no personal sacrifices for PC or maybe PC sarcrificed a character he/she never actually cared about), PC's favourite faction is at least partially ok, PC's conscience is clear.
Bittersweet = PC and his/her LI are alive but separated with some hope to maybe change it in the future, goal is only partially achived with some hope to change it later, some characters PC deeply cared about are dead, PC's favourite faction is in ashes, PC's conscience is clear at least partially so PC can watch self in a mirror witout throwing up in disgust.
Bitter = PC or/and LI dead. Everything else doesn't matter after this condition.
P.S. Definitions are my own and are sujective.

Modifié par Zobo, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

To me, a happy ending is when the protagonist manages to achieve their major goals on their own terms (though not necessarily in the manner they originally believed they would), and survives along with the LI and most/all of the companions.  The protagonist gave his/her all, and it was enough

A bittersweet ending is when the protagonist achieves their goals, but at a heavy cost.  Not so much that the achievement isn't worth it (to the player, at least) but enough where the victory doesn't feel entirely complete.  The protagonist gave his/her all, and while it wasn't quite enough, it was a noble effort, and  got the job done with some sacrifice.  Totally worth hit. 

In a bitter ending, the protagonist has little to no control over his/her fate.  If they're lucky, they can keep themselves and maybe those closest to them alive throughout the tumultuous events.  Success comes at a staggering cost which if it doesn't kill the protagonist, may make them wish they were dead.  Success and failure are purely relative terms, matters of perspective.  As Arthur Welelsley put it:  Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won.

[Killer3000ad]

dversion wrote...

Killer3000ad wrote...
THERE MUST BE AN OPTION FOR A HAPPY ENDING.
!

Disagree. We're not children, we should be able to deal with endings despite the lack of rainbows and sunshine. As long as its well written and evocative of some emotion, I'll dig it. I would urge more people to read a god damn book once in a while. Happy endings are usually few and far between in good literature.

Liamv2 wrote...

This i mean its an 18+ (M in america) do you really expect a happy ending

I said,"AN OPTION". YOu don't want happy endings? Cool pick the options that don't give it to you. No one is forcing you to pick the happy ending. All I want is the option for a happy ending, make it hard for all I care, but the choice has to be there. Why should the rest of us suffer cause you don't like happy endings?

And the book comparison fails instantly since you don't get to pick unlike interactive RPGs like Bioware's where you get to shape the story.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Wynne]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

Generally, it's better that way, honestly. Pale and dark grey endings are usually more satisfying than truly black or white ones. But, key factors: 

• The player should feel like they had input in how the ending turned out, and that it was not merely trivial. (Otherwise, your choices feel meaningless and your PC seems impotent to fix anything they cared about fixing.)
• The player should feel like the ending does the themes of the game's story justice rather than coming out of the blue with a completely different message.
• Even if the player is unhappy about how the ending turned out, they should be forced to admit, "That Companion X sacrificed himself was totally in character, and I could have stopped it if I hadn't taken him along. It was my poor judgment call/rigid adherence to my own standards that caused this."
• The player should never see a glaringly obvious, important option which is not given to them (i.e. if that child is screaming "she's not my Mommy," the player should not be forced to watch as he is dragged away, their PC blithely smiling and waving while they are yelling at the screen, "don't let it happen!")I'm thinking of Anders' quest at the end of DA2. I didn't expect exactly what happened, but I knew in my gut something extremely bad was going to happen (proof of good writing/buildup) and I was flabbergasted that my PC didn't try to follow him or give specific warning of what she suspected might happen (which spoiled things.)
• If tragedy occurs, the player should not feel like it was entirely preventable if only the game had allowed them to do the sensible thing. (It should at least be explained somehow why they cannot do the sensible thing, if they truly cannot.)

I suppose a good general rule is "when crafting the ending paths, assume the player is (a) genre savvy, ( rabidly interested in character fidelity (not that there can be no surprises, but they should feel it coming and say "I should've known!", as you do with the surprises in Asunder and finding out Harrowmont sucks at being a king) and © more interested in fitting endings, earned endings, which match their playthrough than happy or sad ones.

[Killer3000ad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

In my humble opinion or what I expect:

Happy ending = Player character lives, ends up with love interest, retires peacefully/continues to kick ass, allies don't get shatfed, universe isn't shafted, player character isn't forced to accept bad guy's logic, bad guys die.

Bitter ending = Allies were lost on the way, sacrifices had to be made, but the bad guys were defeated/light was thrown into the future. Example of bittersweet, Halo Reach ending. All of Noble Six die, but the Master Chief/Cortana and Pillar of Autumn are successfully launched due to Noble's sacrifice.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 03 novembre 2012 - 10:52 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it is useful to define, in general terms, what someone means by a happy/bitter ending. Happy ending doesn't have to mean everything is rosy, nor does a bittersweet ending mean that it can't have some elements that are decidedly positive.

A happy ending is something that invokes hope, content, and closure. It is an ending that will make you smile, and in some cases make you feel fuzzy inside. It has proper closure for the in game universe and it's characters (including the main protagonist). It is something that ME3's synthesis attempted to do, but failed pretty miserably. It is something that DA2 failed to provide as well, but thats more forgivable given that it isn't the end of a series.

A bitter ending is something that makes everything seem bleak and dark. And unless it fits in with the core plot and lore of the game, then it is something that generally discourages replaybility. Which is one of the main reasons why so many people were upset (and still are upset) with Mass Effect 3. 

A bittersweet ending is a combination of both of these in my opinion, and its one of the hardest endings to properly pull off. This ending will make things seem bleak at first, but there are small glimmers of hope here and there mixed in with closure. 

You can easily use the controversy Mass Effect 3 caused (and other game endings like it) to help you understand what you should attempt to do and what you should not attempt to do. Since Bioware is a company that makes games that revolve around choices, then you need to keep that theme throughout the game and avoid stripping that theme of choice and decisions in any point of the game, and in any shape or form.