258 réponses à ce sujet

[DragonRageGT]

Riddick - Butcher's Bay is an awesome game even if you haven't watched the movies! =)

If ones really wants improved Artificial Intelligence, one should start working on it and making something that can "learn" by itself... else just get a 25 slot mod and better scripts and deal with it.

There are those who simply disable them all and do better on their own controlling all NPC actions.

[Fluffykeith]

I personally hope that Bioware doesn't look at this thread and design their next game to be totally real time, without the tactical option of pauses. I like FPS games, but I don't want RPGs to play like FPS...I like all the stats and abities in RPGs, and I think that twitch style combat takes the emphasis away from those. I'd certainly not want them to become any more twitch style than WoW or Warhammer Online.



So far the arguments against pausing seem to be about the function interrupting the flow of combat, and that it's somehow an admission that the AI isn't "good".

Well, can any of these guys offer a game that has better AI, and explain why? I'd also like to know if they had the same complaints about all the other games that used pausing in combat, like BG1 and 2, the KOTOR games, NWN 1 and 2, and so on?



The pause function allows the player to place emphasis on tactical play rather than reflexes, if they so choose, why is that so bad?

[Cybercat999]

Ethan009 wrote...
<snip>

The post I quoted has at least 5 LOLs, abundance of caps lock and leet speak. The only people I see expressing themselves that way on the internet are not very intelligent and under 12.
If you would care to drop all that irritating "I r TEH ubar pwner" attitude and give some literate reasons why you agree/disagree with *whatever*, I wouldnt just swap you off as another kid trying to play adult online.
If you are not 12, my bad and my apologies, but you sure sound like one.

[sassperella]

The problem with pausing IMO is that it doesn't seem t translate well to the console. From what I've read, you can pause and give all four characters directions while paused on the PC but on the console when you take control of a player the game unpauses and everyone else does what they want, so by the time the controlled npc is in position the rest of the party can be dead on harder modes.

the interface is also a bit clunky on the console. It's great on casual when you can mostly rely on tactics to get you by, but hard mode I think the PC would make it a lot easier to control.

There should be a choice however. The game has tactics to allow the computer to play the other players and the tactics should be adequate to allow this if that's how the player wants to play it, otherwise what's the point of tactics?. I think on casual on the console they pretty much are, I've finished the game a couple of times like this without much problem.

Tactical play is all well and good, but if you're combining that with reflexes because you're trying to give all four characters instructions on the console version and get them into positions in time before the rest of your party is killed, then it becomes much harder than either tactics or reflexes alone.

Modifié par sassperella, 03 janvier 2010 - 12:53 .

[Statue]

Some people need to be careful they don't conflate two separate but related issues: 1) the existence of a pause feature and 2) their evaluation of the quality of the AI tactics system. Others need to be less dismissive of a playstyle because it isn't their prefered playstyle.

Having a grievance with the AI tactics system is not an argument against the pause feature existing; neither is an imperfect AI tactics system the sole reason for the existence of the pause feature. It is not the case that all players want to use the AI tactics system, get frustrated with certain aspects of it, and then have to use the pause feature to work around it. That may well happen for some - for those players, their issue is that the AI tactics is not sufficient to the needs of their preferred playstyle, and they'd be better off couching their issue in those terms rather than blaming the pause button.

But for other players, they are using the pause and play method not out of dissatisfaction with the AI tactics system, or out of an inability to quickly cycle through characters and speedily click icons, but out of a preference for micromanaging combat in a deliberate decision-focused way - they fundamentally prefer to make the decisions themselves as events unfold rather than either let an AI system do it for them or configure an AI system to do it for them. They might simply prefer to micromanage, prefer to play a party-based TRPG in a way that puts the gameplay focus on what decisions they make for the characters without being distracted by a secondary reflex challenge.

Some people appreciate that the challenge of games like chess comes from making sound strategic and tactical choices. A misguided darts player could suggest to a chess player that they are using god mode in chess because when they move pieces they don't have to accurately aim and throw the piece to the intended square from eight feet away. That darts player would demonstrate a lack of understanding of why the chess player is playing chess in the first place. There's a lot of that going on in this thread/these forums too, with an assumption being given that those people that prefer to pause and micromanage tactical decisions are doing so to because of failings in their motor/hand-eye/twitch skills or failings in the AI system. Those might be reasons for some people. There might be failings in some people's twitch skills, there might be failings in the AI system. I myself am proficient at speedy FPS games and enjoy them as much as any FPS fan. I choose to use pause and play in DAO, BG1/2, NWN1/2, etc. over AI tactics not because I can't master quickfire character cycling and icon clicking, but because I enjoy being challenged in different ways by different games, and the central challenge for me in party-based TRPGs is optimally co-ordinating the decisions of the characters in a sound tactical way. If I had to fight with an interface to do that it would feel to me like having to aim my chess pieces from afar as per darts - a secondary and entirely different kind of challenge that isn't the one I play this type of game for and would only serve to distract me from the aspect of the gameplay that I enjoy.

There is nothing wrong in discussing the viability, the strengths, weaknesses, and limitations of the AI tactics system as a means of supporting real-time play (since that is part of its reason d'etre). The same is true of discussing the viability of pause to support micromanaged play, for which I'd kick off by saying that it doesn't work for me as well as pure TB systems, nor does it work as well for me as configurable autopausing. But I think it might help keep the discussion flowing better if those that prefer to play real-time and those who prefer to micromanage would assume less about the other's reasons for doing so (annoying assumption levelled at micromanagers by some real-time players: "you're deficient in some way that you can't do what you do in real-time - you're switching on god mode"; annoying assumption levelled at real-time players by some micromanagers: "you're deficient in some way that you have to rely on AI - you're not smart enough to make the decisions yourself"). The fact is that DAO allows for these different playstyles, and is designed in order to do so (AI tactics is the system that primarily supports real-time play, pausing is the system that primarily supports micromanaged play - players wanting both can flit between them).

Modifié par Statue, 03 janvier 2010 - 01:10 .

[Statue]

Fluffykeith wrote...
I personally hope that Bioware doesn't look at this thread and design their next game to be totally real time, without the tactical option of pauses.

Agreed. There has already been enough of a movement in modern party-based tactical RPGs away from supporting micromanaged tactical play to be of concern to me. That's true of TRPGs in general and of TRPGs from Bioware. I know things move on and all that, but it would be sad if an entire genre of gaming was subsumed into another in a way that means an appealing aspect was neglected. I'd still pay top dollar for a TB TRPG with a tactical combat system like ToEE or XCOM with today's pretty graphics and production values, but with each new mainstream TRPG that comes along I get a sense of abandonment in the name of progress, mass appeal, use of technological advances, etc. It's not just nostalgic bias either. It's a gaming need I have that is less and less catered for (unless I go into indie low budget TRPG land). When new strategy/tactical games are released, I check them out and more often than not get a sinking feeling when I see RTS. On the rare occasions I see TB I nearly go off in my pants. Metaphorically of course.

[Cybercat999]

Statue wrote...
The fact is that DAO allows for these different playstyles, and is designed in order to do so.

Exactly. But calling the different playstyle dumb or failure is not a discussion, its offensive.

I am pro-pause with all my heart in this thread, yet I play without pause on nightmare. I reckon, if I can play and enjoy the game that way without insulting anyone that plays in different way - why OP cant do the same?

[SleeplessInSigil]

Ethan009 wrote...

Meh if you can act like a condescending self righteous ****** I reserve the right to act a little immature.

Forget it its not even worth arguing over. I wasn't even talking to you so yeah forget it. >_> Totally not worth my time anyways.

Edit: The post above me: I think you hit the nail on the head. 

I think Bioware was shooting for a hybrid of the two with the tatics system but since the tatics system isn't as elaborate as it could be it ended up being mostly micromanagment. *shrugs* The game isn't incredibly hard by any means (frankly once one starts pausing and exploiting the riduclous enemy AI the game becomes easy) using the pause button.

+1

[Mordaedil]

Ethan009 wrote...

I think Bioware was shooting for a hybrid of the two with the tatics system but since the tatics system isn't as elaborate as it could be it ended up being mostly micromanagment. *shrugs* The game isn't incredibly hard by any means (frankly once one starts pausing and exploiting the riduclous enemy AI the game becomes easy) using the pause button.

Actually, they were shooting for an on-the-fly self-scripting of the AI for the companions, but otherwise keep it similar to Baldur's Gate's own AI scripting system. They are very similar.

[Serenity84]

sassperella wrote...
The problem with pausing IMO is that it doesn't seem t translate well to the console. From what I've read, you can pause and give all four characters directions while paused on the PC but on the console when you take control of a player the game unpauses and everyone else does what they want, so by the time the controlled npc is in position the rest of the party can be dead on harder modes.

Which is a reason to not play such a game on consoles. Not to dumb it down to console standards.

Aside from that, I don't see why it has to be that way even with the limitations of controllers. A console interface could have simultaneous movement too. Either by moving a cursor around or, possibly better, driving the character without actually excuting the movement until you unpause.

[DragonRageGT]

Statue wrote...

...stuff

Some people appreciate that the challenge of games like chess comes from making sound strategic and tactical choices. A misguided darts player could suggest to a chess player that they are using god mode in chess because when they move pieces they don't have to accurately aim and throw the piece to the intended square from eight feet away. That darts player would demonstrate a lack of understanding of why the chess player is playing chess in the first place. There's a lot of that going on in this thread/these forums too, with an assumption being given that those people that prefer to pause and micromanage tactical decisions are doing so to because of failings in their motor/hand-eye/twitch skills or failings in the AI system. Those might be reasons for some people. There might be failings in some people's twitch skills, there might be failings in the AI system. I myself am proficient at speedy FPS games and enjoy them as much as any FPS fan. I choose to use pause and play in DAO, BG1/2, NWN1/2, etc. over AI tactics not because I can't master quickfire character cycling and icon clicking, but because I enjoy being challenged in different ways by different games, and the central challenge for me in party-based TRPGs is optimally co-ordinating the decisions of the characters in a sound tactical way. If I had to fight with an interface to do that it would feel to me like having to aim my chess pieces from afar as per darts - a secondary and entirely different kind of challenge that isn't the one I play this type of game for and would only serve to distract me from the aspect of the gameplay that I enjoy.

There is nothing wrong in discussing the viability, the strengths, weaknesses, and limitations of the AI tactics system as a means of supporting real-time play (since that is part of its reason d'etre). The same is true of discussing the viability of pause to support micromanaged play, for which I'd kick off by saying that it doesn't work for me as well as pure TB systems, nor does it work as well for me as configurable autopausing. But I think it might help keep the discussion flowing better if those that prefer to play real-time and those who prefer to micromanage would assume less about the other's reasons for doing so (annoying assumption levelled at micromanagers by some real-time players: "you're deficient in some way that you can't do what you do in real-time - you're switching on god mode"; annoying assumption levelled at real-time players by some micromanagers: "you're deficient in some way that you have to rely on AI - you're not smart enough to make the decisions yourself"). The fact is that DAO allows for these different playstyles, and is designed in order to do so (AI tactics is the system that primarily supports real-time play, pausing is the system that primarily supports micromanaged play - players wanting both can flit between them).

Brilliant Statue! Shale's relative? hehe

That's it! Dart players criticizing a chess game! And as a pretty decent online RTS player and FPS (BF1942 only and on cheat-free servers only) and action-RPG that does not require or allow pausing online, I can still appreciate DA for what it is. A Tactical RPS that plays like a chess game. And those claiming enemy AI is broken, well, in NM they were pretty effective. Watch my solo on JakXang and you'll see it at its best. (the part where I keep dying, after the 1st part where I got him with 3 consecutive paralyze hits!)

If anyone claim that went thru NM without pausing or reloading a few times... he would do well in politics...  lier!

Modifié par RageGT, 03 janvier 2010 - 02:57 .

[Serenity84]

Ethan009 wrote...
Hm so Baldur's Gate plays like DA then? :/ Great. I played NWN for a few hours but got turned off by the fact that A) I had to hire henchmen and I think I could only have one at a time?

Nah. NWN is Bioware's weakest game so far for singleplayer. It has the weakest story and really bad combat. It's only praised for the multiplayer part. But it's really a MP game with SP tacked on at the very end.

Baldur's Gate has a party of six. Though it plays fine with just four or five too. And the BG2 companions are infinitely better than the NWN henchmen. They aren't up to the level of DAO, but from what's there, they have great personalities and dialogue.

[GHL_Soul_Reaver]

I don't even pause at the high dragon or whatever, pausing is a poor excuse for saying that you cannot complete the game in its normal original intent...



For the high dragon all go ranged and maybe 1 tank that you can keep healed... that way it goes down fast likewise with other similiar bosses... for everything else pound out DPS/CC while the tank takes the agro.. the strategies you can set up easy enough for it as it is.

[oblivionenss]

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...

I don't even pause at the high dragon or whatever, pausing is a poor excuse for saying that you cannot complete the game in its normal original intent...

Yeah, well the normal intent from the makers of this game is to pause. So....

[addiction21]

I pause to go get waffles... yup thats about the only time.

[Fluffykeith]

"cannot complete the game in it's normal original intent"



um, no offense...but the pause function IS part of the games original intent...Bioware gave used it in almost all of their games since BG. Are you suggesting that YOU know the original intended combat style better than the guys that actually programmed the game?



While your at it, do you mind letting me know what this weeks winning lottery numbers will be?

[Cybercat999]

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...

I don't even pause at the high dragon or whatever, pausing is a poor excuse for saying that you cannot complete the game in its normal original intent...

For the high dragon all go ranged and maybe 1 tank that you can keep healed... that way it goes down fast likewise with other similiar bosses... for everything else pound out DPS/CC while the tank takes the agro.. the strategies you can set up easy enough for it as it is.

And you play solo, naked with one hand tied behind your back. Got it.

I play NM without pause and I die.... a lot. Its still fun - for me. I dont claim it should be fun for everyone and I am not trying to find poor excuses to push my badly mannered statements about how the game should be played on everyone else.
Are you the developer of this game so you can state so blandly how was it intended to be played? And even if it was intended to be played without pause and people do use pause, who are you or anyone else to tell somebody what are they supposed to do with their legally bought copy of single player game?

(Though that "legally bought" doesnt seem to apply to everyone considering how many in this particular part of forum never registered their game.)

[oblivionenss]

Cybercat999 wrote...

(Though that "legally bought" doesnt seem to apply to everyone considering how many in this particular part of forum never registered their game.)

Havent bothered register my game apart from when i bought it on releaseday, to get the DLCs. Havent had the need to post in the spoiler forums yet, but i just had to register when i readed this comment =)

Modifié par oblivionenss, 03 janvier 2010 - 04:18 .

[Lazylog]

I must say that I was rather dissatisfied with the tactics system, Im sort of used to the excel way of creating condtions (If Then Else within another If Then Else Or Else within a For x = 1 to 10 If Then Goto End If Next x etc...). If they had done it like that... it would have totaly kicked ass... but then you need a well organised thought process and a good understandement of what you are about, And well heck.., we are here to enjoy ourselves no? So sod that.

[Pocketgb]

Lazylog wrote...

I must say that I was rather dissatisfied with the tactics system, Im sort of used to the excel way of creating condtions (If Then Else within another If Then Else Or Else within a For x = 1 to 10 If Then Goto End If Next x etc...). If they had done it like that... it would have totaly kicked ass... but then you need a well organised thought process and a good understandement of what you are about, And well heck.., we are here to enjoy ourselves no? So sod that.

I personally would've loved that. It reminds me of the days of making awesome Games Factory games, and creating an object and putting variable upon variable on it. Math is awesome when the answer equates to hitting things and casting spells.

I've also heard that EverQuest II has a pretty in-depth and not too limited macro system, I might have to pick that up while it's $5.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 03 janvier 2010 - 05:07 .

[Statue]

GHL_Soul_Reaver wrote...
pausing is a poor excuse for saying that you cannot complete the game in its normal original intent....

If pause and play was not deemed to be one of the ways the game was intended to be played, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be in the game and wouldn't be advertised as a feature of it, or specifically listed as an intended facility to allow for tactical play in the game's official FAQ.

From the official FAQ (dragonage.bioware.com/game/#5.01):

"5.01 Is it real-time or turn-based?
Combat in Dragon Age: Origins takes place in real-time. In addition, we included a pause-and-play system that allows players to take a more tactical approach to the game."

So yes, the pause function was intended and implemented for those wanting to take a more tactical approach to the game.

It would be one hell of a weird and friendly bug that accidentally implemented a convenient interface control and wrote itself up as a feature on the game's official site. If only all bugs were so sweet and benevolent.


The issue of whether the game is too easy or too hard is a separate one and applies across the different playstyles. I personally find it a little on the easy side, but the answer for me is not giving up using my preferred playstyle. Oh, and I'm sure I could finish the game without using pause. I'd just enjoy it less.

Modifié par Statue, 03 janvier 2010 - 05:37 .

[Lazylog]

''I personally would've loved that. It reminds me of the days of making awesome Games Factory games, and creating an object and putting variable upon variable on it. Math is awesome when the answer equates to hitting things and casting spells.''



Yeah I agree that why I said that it could just kill the fun of the game, you end up putting more hours in the macro and seeing if the actiong is caried out currectly (and without any bugs in the system) than actually playing the game. And I am counting on the fact that I already know how to do it. Think about the pour ignorant saps who would have to start from scratch! Although if their was a mod to add that (with a tester to make sure you dont inadvertently creat loops and such) I would give it a try but even then...

[Lazylog]

But more to the subject yes pausing is dumb... playing a game where you re goal is to brutaly and callously kill the opposit team for no other reason than simply killing them is dumb, doesn't stop people from finding the fun in it.. I know I sometimes do.