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JRPG elements that could make a game like DA:O even better?


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#1
RetrOldSchool

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(Disclaimer: I think DA:O, tied with KOTOR and ME, is one of the best RPG I've played and I dont think DA:O 2 for instance would need these elements, but I think they could add to the experience)

EDIT: Disclaimer pt II: I dont believe the below elements should be implemented the same way they are handled in a JRPG, but they could work if they were made in a way that makes sense and fits the WRPG/DA:O world and overall gameplay
Now this is a loooong post, I hope you bare with me on this one, there might be some gold in it Image IPB

Before KOTOR I used to think JRPG's > Western RPG's in general (BG being an exception) and overall in the last generation (atleast in console gaming, ie Xbox & PS2) I think JRPG's had the upper hand with titles like FF XII, Persona 3 & 4, StarOcean 3, Suikoden III etc though both KOTOR and JE were brilliant! This being based on console, since Im mainly a console gamer.

In the current generation I think WRPG's are way ahead. Games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect and DA:O leading the way, while the major JRPG's like Star Ocean 4 feels uninspired (hopefully FFXIII can change that). 

When you thnk JRPG you often think "spikey haired orphant about to discover his hidden abilities while grinding through horribly paced dialogue and random fights".

However I think there are some elements of JRPG's that Bioware could incorporate in future RPG's, things that could add to the experience!

1. More "special attacks", and special attacks that level.
This is something a lot of JRPG's got. Usually you have a whole bunch of special attacks that level depending on how much you use them. The Tales-series and Star Ocean series are 2 examples.

In a game like DA:O it could work like this: Weapon specific talents that can be levelled. For example there could be 4 talents (special attacks) for every weapon type and depending on how much you use them they can level and get benefits like either reduced cooldown, elemental damage, less stamina cost, higher damage etc, and the attack might even get a litlle upgraded animation after being levelled.

This would make it possible to create a DW warrior and put talent points in 1 h axes special attacks for instance, while having a DW warrior with points in 1 h swords would play differently. Or a ranger with shortbow special attacks compared to a rogue with crossbow or dagger special attacks. 
Also it would ad the element of strategy that you would have to choose which attack to use frequently to get it to level = added depth.
Of course it would have to be done so it doesnt make things imbalanced and there shouldnt be too many attacks.

EDIT (for clarification): As for special attacks, I dont suggest them to be like in JRPG's with 10 hit sword combos complete with flashes of lights and explosions. Instead I mean them to be more like the existing talents, but with some influence by the spell system. For example:A 2h axe special attack that is a lunge and an axe swipe. The attack could work a little like cone of cold, though with a shorter but wider arc. That way you could direct your swipe attack.
After reading a lot of good feedback I realize that having the attacks level by usage could be bad, it would probably lead to you only using 3 party members over and over, since their attacks would be levelled. However, it would still be an option to be able to spend talent points on special attacks that you've already learned to make them more effective, reduce the cooldown etc. To really tailor make your warrior if you'd like. Or you could aim for the broader talents like the 2h tree.

2. "Returning" bad guys. In a lot of JRPG's you have one particular bad guy apart from the main enemy, who return from time to time and try to make things hard on the main protagonist. Usually it's the main bad guys right hand man etc. A lot of western RPG's have interesting main bad guys, but they are usually not encountered until near the end. 
In a game like DA:O it could work with a party of mercenaries who from time to time make attempts to make things misarable for the player. It could also be a free agent with an agenda of his own. Maybe a random camp site party crashing, or after finishing a dungeon and exiting, you could have a familiar face waiting for you etc. There could even be quests on the chantry board that's fake and really just an ambush. It could even be tied in with the origin story.

In any case, to me it adds to the overall experience when having a bad guy with more personality that you encounter from time to time. It makes you thnk "oh not him again" but in a good way.

EDIT (for clarification): As for returning bad guys, I dont intend them to be like a bad guy that you almost beat all the time, just to have them dash off when they should die every time. I like the general concept though of having a nemesis, that might show up 3-4 times over the course of the whole game. 
Sometimes it could be in battle, sometimes he/she might be a spectator or barking orders or framing the player, maybe even starting out as an ally ( a blue circle NPC tagging along in a dungeon, just to turn on the party and leave them in a life threating situation after getting what he/she wanted all along).

3. More less story focused locations.[/u][/b] This is a hard one to describe, but in JRPG's you have a greater sense of travelling over vast areas. In DA:O you complete Lothering and then you can fast travel to Denirim, Lake Calenhad, Frostback mountains etc. 
It would be nice to have just a couple of smaller, less important stops on the way (mandatory only the first time you travel to a location). For instance, the first time you leave Lothering to go to Denrimi, there could be a narrow mountain pass wth a small village nearby, or a strategically important bridge that you need to cross, instead of you just jumping from Lothering directly to Denirim market district right away. You could either just breeze through these areas or you could explore them.

That's also great spots to have side quests, hidden items, "returning bad guy"-encounters (see 2 above) etc.
To me it adds a lot to the feeling of an epic journey and to the exploration factor. 

EDIT (clarification) As for more non-story specific locations, I dont mean an open world like Fallout 3 or Oblivion. I marely mean like Lothering. You can go right through Lothering without picking up Sten or Leliana, or you can take your time and do all the sidequests. I just wish more like that, even after gaining access to the world map. 
For example a mountain pass that you need to go through to get to Denerim with a small village outside or the outskirts of the Brecilian forest, maybe complete with a small human village (maybe even the village that the humans you encounter in the Dalish origin lives).

4. Better area presentation. When arriving for the first time to a new location in JRPG's your almost always treated with a short cinematic introduction to the area. In DA:O it could be a small thing like a short cut scene of the party walking through the Denirim city gates, comenting on the town wall etc. That'll gve you more immersion than having your party just appear in the market district, or in the outskirts of the Dalish camp without any introduction to the new area.

5. More NPC to NPC interaction. WRPG's are a lot better than JRPG's in character interaction. You have branching conversations, multiple options etc, but in JRPG's you have a lot of cutscenes where your whole party interact, something that usually is missing in WRPG's. In JRPG's these moments can sometimes be badly scripted and downright corny, but in games like Dragon Quest VIII it's done real well, with some memorable and hillarious cutscenes.

Imagine having that with the WRPG flare, making it interactive. KOTOR did this to an extent, when your party members would start talking with eachother and you had the possibilty to butt in. DA:O has a couple of such scenes (like when you arrive at Lothering) but they are way too far apart.

All in all I think WRPG's are way ahead right now, but I hope they still take the chance to glance to the east to get some new old ideas Image IPB


Oh and thanks for reading my ramblings if you got all the way here.Image IPB

Modifié par RetrOldSchool, 03 janvier 2010 - 10:47 .


#2
Guest_Ethan009_*

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Yes the ultimate clash of WRPG and JRPG with the strong points of both and the weakness of neither would be freakin EPIC.



Sadly no one seems to wanna work together :( Its all I'm better than YOUS!



BAH!


#3
Yozaro

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Not that I disagree with other points, but I liked the 4th. A small cutscene of the party going into different places first time would be good. For example the party going through the gates of Denerim and then the camera zoomes out and shows the whole city.

#4
Silensfurtim

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No JRPG elements pls.

#5
Amagoi

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4 and 5 seem like they'd make the game better. Otherwise no. But I am highly biased as I have began to hate jrpgs with a burning passion. There are always some good ideas from other games, but I want want Bioware to make some wrpg-jrpg bastard child as much as I want a DA MMO.. which is not at all mind you.

#6
RetrOldSchool

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Silensfurtim wrote...

No JRPG elements pls.


I totally agree with you on things like random battles, overly cheeky companions, horrible voice acting, far-between save spots and other things that a lot of JRPG's are plagued with. However, if you take the time to read the whole post, I think you can agree with me on at least one or two elements :)

#7
Guest_Ethan009_*

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And 2 oh god 2 I hate having only 1 boring main rival/villain that you meet like once or twice and only fight once. >_> It takes all the oomph out for me.

#8
SleeplessInSigil

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mmm I love Japanese RPGs and find the stories and villains in them overall more interesting in general.

#9
RetrOldSchool

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Amagoi wrote...

4 and 5 seem like they'd make the game better. Otherwise no. But I am highly biased as I have began to hate jrpgs with a burning passion. There are always some good ideas from other games, but I want want Bioware to make some wrpg-jrpg bastard child as much as I want a DA MMO.. which is not at all mind you.


Yeah a WRPG-JRPG hybrid would probably be horrible, dont get me wrong, thats not my idea at all. 
All I think is that are certain elements in JRPG's that could make a great game even better. 

That said Id like a "spikey haired amnesiac orpant" origin as much as a swift kick to the groin. And I totally agree with you on not wanting a DA:O MMO.

But deep in your heart I think you could agree on no 3 too :D I mean, more towns and locations never hurt an RPG, just look at BG.

#10
Silensfurtim

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RetrOldSchool wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

No JRPG elements pls.


I totally agree with you on things like random battles, overly cheeky companions, horrible voice acting, far-between save spots and other things that a lot of JRPG's are plagued with. However, if you take the time to read the whole post, I think you can agree with me on at least one or two elements :)


yeah i agree on 3, 4 and 5. 

3. Bioware could have easily done this. eg BG series. But I guess in DAO they just maximized all the areas so no areas would be pointless and empty. 

4. the BG series had a short cutscene is some areas you visit for the 1st time. I dunno why they didnt implement that in DAO.

5. I think DAO has enough, but of course we want more. 

#11
Hulk Hsieh

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I think Bioware RPGs are already more JRPG-like than the games from other WRPG developers.

WRPGs have never aim at "cinamatic experience" while JRPGs have. And now Bioware is doing it.

#12
FlintlockJazz

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First the good...



3. Reminds me alot of how travel was done in BG1, you would have to go through all the intervening locations first before reaching a place for the first time, so not so much a JRPG thing but still a good thing to have.



4. They should have put a cutscene in for when you first entered Denerim to give you a feeling of entering a city definitely at least.



5. More convos are always good, maybe get it up to PS:Torment level! :D



And now the bad...



1. Not so impressed with 'special attacks'. In fact, if removing special attacks meant that we could have more NPCs in our active party at a time I would prefer that, as it was supposed to be the required micromanagement of party members that forced them to restrict us to four. Also, I have never been a fan of making the player specialise into weapon types, as it means you just focus on one weapon per character and that's it. Much better to have skills that apply to all weapon types, with the effects of the skills maybe being altered by the weapon you are using, so a skill that makes your two-handed weapon strikes harder also makes your one-handed weapon strikes faster (just picking stuff out of the air for that example, I'm sure there's a better way of doing it).



2. If I defeat the bad guy him constantly getting away without any option for me to stop him from doing so would ****** me off. Show him appearing every now and again and chat with him, maybe trick me into thinking he's on my side, but if I fight him don't pull the rug out from under me!

#13
Guest_Tassiaw_*

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I was ready to come in here and call you a JRPG fanboy, but then I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read your post. Good points, and I agree on most of them. More people should read the OP, he's not wrong.

#14
Ishbo

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I don't know about JRPGs, but the points you've written are good, particularly 5 imo. It would be nice if the characters in my party could also engage in the conversation as well. Sometimes I have someone commenting, maybe even talking to the other person, but it has no effect!



An example would be if I'm talking to a beggar asking for money - currently Morrigan may disapprove and talks about the beggar being useless scum, but it would be nice if the beggar could respond to this insult?

#15
Zakath12

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SleeplessInSigil wrote...

mmm I love Japanese RPGs and find the stories and villains in them overall more interesting in general.



10 years ago, maybe. Today ? They pretty much all sucked this gen except Lost Odyssey. And FF13 doesn't look THAT good either, so...

#16
The Capital Gaultier

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 None of the listed elements would help DA:O.

#17
RetrOldSchool

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

First the good...
3. Reminds me alot of how travel was done in BG1, you would have to go through all the intervening locations first before reaching a place for the first time, so not so much a JRPG thing but still a good thing to have.
4. They should have put a cutscene in for when you first entered Denerim to give you a feeling of entering a city definitely at least.
5. More convos are always good, maybe get it up to PS:Torment level! :D
And now the bad...
1. Not so impressed with 'special attacks'. In fact, if removing special attacks meant that we could have more NPCs in our active party at a time I would prefer that, as it was supposed to be the required micromanagement of party members that forced them to restrict us to four. Also, I have never been a fan of making the player specialise into weapon types, as it means you just focus on one weapon per character and that's it. Much better to have skills that apply to all weapon types, with the effects of the skills maybe being altered by the weapon you are using, so a skill that makes your two-handed weapon strikes harder also makes your one-handed weapon strikes faster (just picking stuff out of the air for that example, I'm sure there's a better way of doing it).
2. If I defeat the bad guy him constantly getting away without any option for me to stop him from doing so would ****** me off. Show him appearing every now and again and chat with him, maybe trick me into thinking he's on my side, but if I fight him don't pull the rug out from under me!


thanks for the good feedback!
3. true! BG did this very well, but most recent WRPG's (at least from Bioware) is missing this, while JRPG's got it in abundance. WK is a good example, you should have to go through the cave whch is mentioned from time to time!
4. yeah,just a little something! one for every new loation the first time you visit.
5. Exactly! 

1. thats a good point! the reason i thoughtof it is because as a mage you have a huge variety of spells, but talents as a rogue or warr is more restricted. But you make a good point there!

2. Youre right, you wouldnt want it to be some bad guy that you almost kill every time but he keeps escaping. But I think with the right script a returning nemesis could be great! 

For example: He/She could start off as an ally, maybe a "blue circle" non controllable NPC that helps you fight through a dungeon only to trick you and leave you fighting some monster at the end.
Then said nemesiis could return with henchmen later and let the henchmen do the dirtywork, only to flee when you dispose of them.
Then maybe the next time after that you never get the chance to fight him, instead he tricks some authority to arrest you etc etc. As long as every encounter makes sense and with a real good script and agood voice actor as the nemesis, I think it could ad a lot!

#18
VanDraegon

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How about some big doe eye wimenz with humungo cans?

#19
Cryo84

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What about some underage/overage armored skirt wearing love interest who speaks in gasps and giggles?

#20
TheNecroFiend

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No, just no.

I don't need some flash power which hits for OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!

No thanks to flashy cutscenes they kill immersions.

Returning bad guys suck. I hate in video games when I completly destroy the villain only to have him jump back to full health and run away, all while my team just stands around twiddleing their thumbs. Or as is the case in most JRPGS your team outclasses the villains in a early battle and then the next time you face him he gets some insane power up or conviently remembers some new over the top powers.

#21
RetrOldSchool

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TheNecroFiend wrote...

No, just no.

I don't need some flash power which hits for OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!

No thanks to flashy cutscenes they kill immersions.

Returning bad guys suck. I hate in video games when I completly destroy the villain only to have him jump back to full health and run away, all while my team just stands around twiddleing their thumbs. Or as is the case in most JRPGS your team outclasses the villains in a early battle and then the next time you face him he gets some insane power up or conviently remembers some new over the top powers.



my bad really, I wasnt clear about the idea is built on not having these elements handled like in a JRPG, but usig the general idea of the different elements and incorporate them in a WRPG.

For cutscenes, in WRPG's I totally love that the cutscenes are all in engine! Like ME and DA:O. And when talking about short cutscenes the first time you enter a new area I mean more like a 5-10 second "presentation" of that area, like a short fly-by cinematic and possibly a short conversation. A little like when you enter Lothering, just a little more.

As for special attacks, I totally agree, it cant be some 10-hit übercombo, with flashes and explotions hitting for 9000 in dmg. But it could be for instance a 5 yard quick dagger dash attack for a rogue, that is handled like the AoE spells for mages, so you could direct the attack and then perform it, possibly hitting a couple of enemies for normal damage (or reduced, whatever fits the balance)

#22
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Interesting points, OP.



1) Special Attacks -- gimmicks. The game isn't about combat. No time should be wasted making OMG DRAGON BALLS Z special moves. Combat supports the story. Devs should spend that time working on an interesting cut scene.



2) Returning bad guys. Bleck. That might be fun in a cartoon RPG, but western RPGs tend to be a lot more gritty and in gritty stories people die. The bad guys should die gloriously and then the story can move on. The endless repetition of a theme and cast are what bored a lot of people away from JRPGs. Western RPGs should not add a detail that helped kill JRPGs. It's insane.



3) Broader world -- You're looking for a Bethesda game here. Bethesda's games are fantastic, wide world, run-around-and-explore games. BioWare's games are tigher and more focused even when they offer plenty of places to explore. Each map is distinct, defined, and tied to the larger story. Two takes on the same genre and each offers a fantastic amount of fun. But they should not be squashed together.



4) "Establishing camera shots" for each area -- I could go with you on that, however several areas in DAO (at least) have this idea in them. I can think of three boss fights and at least three areas that have establishing cut scenes or conversations as you enter them.



5) More NPC to NPC interaction -- I'm on the fence here. It is really a question of freedom to customize your game in opposition to being told who is on your team. The JRPGs I've played gave you party members. In RPGs, you choose you party. DAO lets you murder two of your potential companions before you pick them up. Do the devs blow time scripting each combination of characters for a half dozen interactions, or should they spend more time on smaller, tighter interactions that take account who you want to be in your game? I do like the rare "whole party" interactions, but prefer having a say over my game to being told by BioWare who my character's friends are.







In the end, there is almost nothing JRPGs can offer real RPGs. People vote with their wallets so look at the markets. Real RPGs are on the upswing, JRPGs are guttering and dying. And good riddance to them.

#23
evilhouseboat

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I like DA:O the way it is.

#24
RampantBeaver

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I would actually be quite content if all those ideas were befittingly implemented into any future bioware title.



1* I enjoy the idea where abilities improve the more we use/practice them, it reminds me of a thing we call real life.

2* Oddly when reading this part I thought back to my pokemon playing days and your reappearing rival that stays with you throughout the game. Arl Howe slightly filled the shoe's of this side-villain if you played the human noble origin, but a similar reoccuring villain for the remaining origins was missing.

3* I understand what your saying, i know from playing FF games I always felt like I was travelling a great distance. The random encounters between travel locations in DA:O does slightly address this, though I agree that its not quite the same.

4* Yes

5* Always good.



All would be good additions however I consider them to be trivial in the grand scale of things. In the sequel I most crutially want to see a much improved combat system not reliant on an aged, unimaginative, lame ruleset no longer suitable in a modern game.

#25
thegreateski

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1. We have those already?

2. I can see it now. Some sort of demented Darkspawn general whos runs about, door to door, spreading fear and horror.
Like a deranged Jehova's witness.
3. Please no :unsure:

4. It would be nice to know exactly where I am when I enter a new area, yes.

5.They're workin on it.