135 réponses à ce sujet

[Silensfurtim]

RetrOldSchool wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

after all whats been said, I think its not a good idea to implement JRPG elements to WRPGs.

imagine if this happens, then the stupid Sony/JRPG fanboys would go.. "OMG OMG Bioware copied FF's gameplay! OMG OMG! WRPGs suck!"

screw that

I have to say that I dont think any of the elements in my original post would be something even the most hardened fan boy could consider being copied from JRPG's, its not like a 5 second cinematic view of Denerim to establish the location the first time would warrant an outcry like that. 

The elements Im talking about are already in use in some extent in some WRPG's, but they are more common in JRPG's. But in order to use them the devs would of course have to take the general idea and tweak it to fit the game.

well like ive said before, some of things youve said has been done already in the past Bioware games. its just a matter of implementation for the current games.

[SleeplessInSigil]

the_one_54321 wrote...

this is the real difference between JRPGs and WRPGs. WRPGs insist on customizing everything based on what the player wants to play. JRPGs fully craft a story for the player to interact in, and then the player has to fit themselves to that story.

+1
couldn't have put it better. <3

and again, not to further hijack this thread into a J vs. W war, but to anyone who seems to be basing their opinion of JRPGs on Final Fantasy alone, needs to play Chrono Trigger or Seiken Densetsu 3, the latter of which had something like "origins" before any WRPG that I know of, together with real real-time combat and even a multi-tier class-specializations system, BUT it's only even been released in Japan so most people will never know of it, though you can find some fan-translation projects.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 03 janvier 2010 - 11:35 .

[Silensfurtim]

amrose2 wrote...

JRPGs are like introductions, and then you find the CRPGs like Dragon Age, Neverwinter, etc.. and realize what a true RPG is like. After that you find out that JRPGS are just rehashed recycled storylines/battle systems and grindfests that are incredibly boring. The last original JRPG you'll ever play is your very first one. After that... its just the same thing with different pixels.

JRPGs lack the continuity factor. 

[Silensfurtim]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

this is the real difference between JRPGs and WRPGs. WRPGs insist on customizing everything based on what the player wants to play. JRPGs fully craft a story for the player to interact in, and then the player has to fit themselves to that story.

+1
couldn't have put it better. <3

that basically sums up the difference between both genres.

I prefer WRPG/CRPGs because it let me be what I want to be, play however I want. Its all about choices.

While in JRPGs, they give you this. Play it. Thats it. Its a "role-playing game" that forces you not to role-play. 

[SleeplessInSigil]

Silensfurtim wrote...

While in JRPGs, they give you this. Play it. Thats it. Its a "role-playing game" that forces you not to role-play. 

It actually forces you to play a specific role. more like. <_<

[Silensfurtim]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

While in JRPGs, they give you this. Play it. Thats it. Its a "role-playing game" that forces you not to role-play. 

It actually forces you to play a specific role. more like. <_<

yeah. then games like MGS, Halo, Assassins Creed should be categorized as RPGs too.

[RetrOldSchool]

Silensfurtim wrote...

RetrOldSchool wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...
after all whats been said, I think its not a good idea to implement JRPG elements to WRPGs.
imagine if this happens, then the stupid Sony/JRPG fanboys would go.. "OMG OMG Bioware copied FF's gameplay! OMG OMG! WRPGs suck!"
screw that

I have to say that I dont think any of the elements in my original post would be something even the most hardened fan boy could consider being copied from JRPG's, its not like a 5 second cinematic view of Denerim to establish the location the first time would warrant an outcry like that. 

The elements Im talking about are already in use in some extent in some WRPG's, but they are more common in JRPG's. But in order to use them the devs would of course have to take the general idea and tweak it to fit the game.

well like ive said before, some of things youve said has been done already in the past Bioware games. its just a matter of implementation for the current games.

True, some of it has been done to some extent in other Bioware (and other WRPG's), for instance ME & KOTOR had a cinematic when you arrived at planets.
However, for the most part these elements are more common (though sometimes not that well done) in JRPG's, so while it's not exclusivly JRPG elements, I think its fair to say that it could be viewed like JRPG elements.

[RetrOldSchool]

BECC4 wrote...

To the OP, I'll admit, I saw the title and cringed, I was ready to totally stomp on your post like an over-eager Shale let loose in a pen full of chickens ....... but then I read your post and actually, I think ur ideas are fair and could be used to improve the game, I like 4 and 5 particularly, but as with everything it would depend on how it was implemented and to what degree.

haha, im glad it didnt live up to the expectations! Oh, and thanks for not making it a poultry gore fest

[MightySword]

Maybe I'm a purist, or maybe most of the crossovers to this point have been really bad but I prefer JRPG and WRPG each stay in their own territory. While WRPG hasn't made any attempt to blend into JRPG (a good thing), JRPG has been making attempt to cross into WRPG. Understandable especially companies like Square has made it clear that they want to expand their footing outside the Japanese market.

As a result so far this generation of JRPG with their "appeal to western approach" have been sucking pretty bad to me. Even by owning all the console of this generation and bought "all" the JRPG tittles released so far, not a single one remain in my possession because they were all traded away in utter disappointment. In fact, I only keep the PS2 tittles that I bought during this time. In a way, these "attempt" to cross over to the Western Audience forced out the charm that's supposed to unique to JRPG. There are elements, good elements, or even bad elements to some people but they're what make a JRPG a JRPG, and JRPG of this generation is losing those elements at a depressing rate. I prefer JRPG remains as something that carter to the Japanese market, and we Westerner pick it up out of curiosity and interest. Ironically, having JRPG specifically carter and appeal to us simply throw that fascination out of window.

This is the reason I don't like hyprid. Even though I haven't seen an attempt, I'm afraid the samething would happen to WRPG if they try to cross over into JRPG. Even if you say Bioware maybe good enough to pull one off, the fact that many JRPG powerhouse had fail at the attempt doesn't say much for a vote of confidence.

Modifié par MightySword, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:52 .

[the_one_54321]

Silensfurtim wrote...

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
this is the real difference between JRPGs and WRPGs. WRPGs insist on customizing everything based on what the player wants to play. JRPGs fully craft a story for the player to interact in, and then the player has to fit themselves to that story.

+1 couldn't have put it better. <3

that basically sums up the difference between both genres.

I prefer WRPG/CRPGs because it let me be what I want to be, play however I want. Its all about choices.

While in JRPGs, they give you this. Play it. Thats it. Its a "role-playing game" that forces you not to role-play. 

well first of all, it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. it's just different.

second, Square is on a whole different level of success than Bioware. i love Bioware and they make great games, but they can only wish and work toward being as prolifically and consistantly super successful as Square.

third, role playing games replace you with your character. action games like assassins creed are not RPGs because you control the attacks directly. same reason that The Legend of Zelda is not an RPG. JRPGs, despite not letting you create a character are sill RPGs because they give you a character that completely replaces your hand-eye-coordination with its stats. it's like using the premade characters that come with D&D boxed adventures.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[RetrOldSchool]

MightySword wrote...

Maybe I'm a purist, or maybe most of the crossovers to this point have been really bad but I prefer JRPG and WRPG each stay in their own territory. While WRPG hasn't made any attempt to blend into JRPG (a good thing), JRPG has been making attempt to cross into WRPG. Understandable especially companies like Square has made it clear that they want to expand their footing outside the Japanese market.

As a result so far this generation of JRPG with their "appeal to western approach" have been sucking pretty bad to me. Even by owning all the console of this generation and bought "all" the JRPG tittles released so far, not a single one remain in my possession because they were all traded away in utter disappointment. In fact, I only keep the PS2 tittles that I bought during this time. In a way, these "attempt" to cross over to the Western Audience forced out the charm that's supposed to unique to JRPG. There are elements, good elements, or even bad elements to some people but they're what make a JRPG a JRPG, and JRPG of this generation is losing those elements at a depressing rate. I prefer JRPG remains as something that carter to the Japanese market, and we Westerner pick it up out of curiosity and interest. Ironically, having JRPG specifically carter and appeal to us simply throw that fascination out of window.

This is the reason I don't like hyprid. Even though I haven't seen an attempt, I'm afraid the samething would happen to WRPG if they try to cross over into JRPG. Even if you say Bioware maybe good enough to pull one off, the fact that many JRPG powerhouse had fail at the attempt doesn't say much for a vote of confidence.

I agree, a hybrid would probably not be very good, however, the elements I posted could all be implemented (and some are already being implemented, not just enough IMO) without the result being a hybrid. Only no 1 would affect the overall gameplay, the rest is more or less only to add to immersion and presentation value. 

Even no 1 could be implemented in a way that would work well for WRPG like DA:O.
----------------------------------------

Now a little OT about the current state of JRPG's:

I totally agree that the current gen JRPG's have been pretty bland. However I can't really see that it's due to any type of catering to the western audience? Neither Eternal Sonata, Star Ocean 4, Lost Oddyssey etc were victims of any type of westernization in my opinion.

ES (IMO) was horrible due to the story, cutscene pacing and the extremely (even for a JRPG) linear story. SO4 and LO are pretty ok to me, but both are kind of old school, especially LO, which is complete with turn based fights and random battles and plagued by bad pacing in both gameplay and cutscenes, far-between save-spots etc.  Infinite Undiscovery could be a little WRPG-influenced as there's no battle instances, it's all real time hack and slash in the gameworld, but that's about it. 
There's one JRPG element that has been removed in most recent games that could be an effect of westernization and that's the playable world map. In older games you always controlled your party on the world map instead of just picking locations, but this feature is something that has been away from most of the genre ever since games like FFX

IMO the problem with recent JRPG's is more or less that they tend to keep the bad old school things, like cut scene pacing and length (in Eternal Sonata, every line of dialogue seems to be delivered 2 seconds late. Even when people are cut off, there's a pause like "I don't think we should... -pause- Look out!") far between save spots (where you literally can be forced to play 1-2 hours without being able to save once and then, without saving, end up in a 30 minute cutscene). 

Another problem I see is that the stories get more and more complicated, bordering to convoluted (ES anyone?). Just put any recent JRPG up against Dragon Quest VIII.
DQ8 was as old school it gets! And the story was straight forward old school, though everything was just really well done, the old school gameplay, progression, the cast and some hillarious cut scenes.
---------------

Back to topic:
To sum it up, I too think a JRPG/WRPG hybrid would be bad, both ways. However I do believe both genres could use some minor inspiration from eachother with great result! And without making such drastic changes that anyone would consider the game a hybrid.

[cachx]

I haven't played a decent jrpg since the ps1 era. Recent ones are meh at best. I think is mainly because jprgs refuse to evolve and mature (think FF VI, the story was much better, the characters were really likeable and well done than recent games, and FF VI is like 15 years old).

The only thing I like from jrpgs over the wrpg is that they have much more freedom creating battle systems, leveling systems and other stuff. wrpgs are too deeply rooted with D&D and sometimes this systems don't work too well for me in a videogame (I ended up giving up on BG2 because of this).

As for the first post, I would have loved a "returning villain" type character (specially because I thought Loghain was pretty bland as a villain), if it was well written, or else it runs the risk of becoming a caricature of himself by the end of the game.

[NeroSparda]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

this is the real difference between JRPGs and WRPGs. WRPGs insist on customizing everything based on what the player wants to play. JRPGs fully craft a story for the player to interact in, and then the player has to fit themselves to that story.

+1
couldn't have put it better. <3

and again, not to further hijack this thread into a J vs. W war, but to anyone who seems to be basing their opinion of JRPGs on Final Fantasy alone, needs to play Chrono Trigger or Seiken Densetsu 3, the latter of which had something like "origins" before any WRPG that I know of, together with real real-time combat and even a multi-tier class-specializations system, BUT it's only even been released in Japan so most people will never know of it, though you can find some fan-translation projects.

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Devil Summoner, and Devil Survivor are JRPGs that you can customize your stats and skills. Also to negiotate your enemies in becoming your allies (or give you items. Also buy demons in Devil Survivor) but that is depending on their personality and on whose side they are on. Also the ending and enemies change depending on what kind of moral you put in the main character. Actually, I think Bioware burrowed Devil Survivor's idea on how the main character's allies desert/betray you for what kind of person you are becoming. So that didn't feel original, and DA feels slightly like Lord of the Rings to me... minus the hobbits and the rings. 

What I noticed that WRPGs haven't done before Mass Effect, is the fact what SMT series did before so, having endings based on your decisions. And the story is formed by those very decisions. Though Bioware have managed to make it so those decisions have those immediate effect and what will be transferred over to Mass Effect 2 from Mass Effect saves. Though in the end I feel that both WRPGs and JRPGs, mostly likely than not, don't feel original story-wise. It feels like I have read/seen it from something before. I still keep my current gene JRPGs, and Dragon Age is the only WRPG that I haven't returned... Personal Taste, can't blame me.

Adding: I forgot about Jade Empire and Knight of the Old Republic. Stupid me.

Modifié par NeroSparda, 03 janvier 2010 - 09:30 .

[MightySword]

RetrOldSchool wrote...
I totally agree that the current gen JRPG's have been pretty bland. However I can't really see that it's due to any type of catering to the western audience? Neither Eternal Sonata, Star Ocean 4, Lost Oddyssey etc were victims of any type of westernization in my opinion.

The change is kinda subtle right now so it's hard to tell. If I have to put it ... well, I'm an avid JRPG player, and I can say with confident that I played about  every single JRPG tittles released in the past 5-6 years regardless of system or presentation. I can play tittles that million of others also play, I can also play tittles that probably only a very niche population is even aware of. At the start of this generation though, a lot of familiar elements I have playing JRPG are suddenly lost. In short it's still a kind of "feeling" thing to me so I can't be more precise, but I know it's true.

[SleeplessInSigil]

MightySword wrote...

Maybe I'm a purist, or maybe most of the crossovers to this point have been really bad but I prefer JRPG and WRPG each stay in their own territory. While WRPG hasn't made any attempt to blend into JRPG (a good thing), ...

Maybe not outright, but anyone who's been playing JRPGs (included those that're never ported outside Japan) will be able to point out some subtle elements that seem to inspire, if you will, WRPGs. It's probably not intentional, but the first thing I thought of when I heard of DA's "Origins" was Seiken Densetsu 3 (or Secret of Mana 2 as it may be known, since it hasn't been officially released here yet AFAIK.)

the_one_54321 wrote...

...

third, role playing games replace you with your character. action games like assassins creed are not RPGs because you control the attacks directly. same reason that The Legend of Zelda is not an RPG. JRPGs, despite not letting you create a character are sill RPGs because they give you a character that completely replaces your hand-eye-coordination with its stats. it's like using the premade characters that come with D&D boxed adventures.

This. +100



Now, to apologize and go off-topic some more, let's compare the recent best of here with the recent best of there;
Watch this: http://zoome.jp/violet/diary/184 (warning, possible spoilers)

^ That's probably from what appears to be one of the extremely-linear parts of FF13, but you'll notice the flawlessly-seamless integration of battles and cutscenes, the camera's movement during those, along with the events scripted into the main play engine, like the explosions etc. All coming together to form a noticeably more intense sequence than the last couple hours of DA:O, IMO (especially near the end of that video where you can definitely get a sense of something epic transpiring even if you may not understand what they're saying. DA kept falling short of the tension required to generate such a rise, except during the encounters with Loghain and where the other Warden fails, and maybe the BM build-up in the DR.)


oh and did I mention the memorable music?  
That is one thing that WRPGs seem to be severely lacking in. If you asked me or any long-time JRPG fan to list out their favorite pieces, they'd readily mention a sizable number of tunes including some from as long as over a decade ago. Those soundtracks still keep inspiring hundreds of fan covers and remixes.

How many outstanding WRPG soundtracks can you think of? I can only recall most of the pieces from Planescape:Torment, the title and romance themes in Baldur's Gate II, and some of the songs in DA:O (intro, title, tavern, camp and Leliana's/Dalish Farewell.) The rest, forgettable. Indeed, you could leave the music turned off most of the time in DA:O and not notice its absence (especially during battles.)

So, IMO, the music alone is one thing right there that WRPGs could benefit from adapting for themselves. 

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:08 .

[the_one_54321]

i am very eagerly anticipating FFXIII. so long as it is a well told story i will love it. i love FF games for their stories, less so for their gameplay, and dont care at all for how they direct you in story progression. if it's linear, that's perfectly alright with me.

[MightySword]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

MightySword wrote...

Maybe I'm a purist, or maybe most of the crossovers to this point have been really bad but I prefer JRPG and WRPG each stay in their own territory. While WRPG hasn't made any attempt to blend into JRPG (a good thing), ...

Maybe not outright, but anyone who's been playing JRPGs (included those that're never ported outside Japan) will be able to point out some subtle elements that seem to inspire, if you will, WRPGs. It's probably not intentional, but the first thing I thought of when I heard of DA's "Origins" was Seiken Densetsu 3 (or Secret of Mana 2 as it may be known, since it hasn't been officially released here yet AFAIK.)

If it's simply overlap, or great minds think alike, or even inspring or borrowing idea then it's not a problem. Because even when two identical idea are adapt, the difference in culture and execution will likely result in two distint products. What I'm worried now, and feel like it's actually happening, is a "modified by will" process that's taking place with JRPG. They don't feel like they're "inspired" by WRPG, but like I said, they try to "appeal" to Western audience. To me that's a problem.

Modifié par MightySword, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:43 .

[SleeplessInSigil]

MightySword wrote...

What I'm worried now, and feel like it's actually happening, is a "modified by will" process that's taking place with JRPG. They don't feel like they're "inspired" by WRPG, but like I said, they try to "appeal" to Western audience. To me that's a problem.

+1

They're getting the wrong ideas. I wish I knew enough of the language to campaign against that and tell them that it ain't so! 

the_one_54321 wrote...

i am very eagerly anticipating FFXIII. so long as it is a well told story i will love it. i love FF games for their stories, less so for their gameplay, and dont care at all for how they direct you in story progression. if it's linear, that's perfectly alright with me.

I just MIGHT have to buy a console just for FF13.. Damn the lack of a PC version! 

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 04 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Wow, liking how the discussion is going on here!    Regarding how JRPGs and WRPGs are different due to the former's focus on linear story and the latter's focus on customisation, I have to agree in general that is true, but BioWare's games tends to be the exception.  Most of their games have a strong central story that carries you through the game, but with a customisable character that often still has a specific role put upon them, for instance in Mass Effect you are 'forced' to play a member of the Alliance military, but within that role you are able to make whatever changes you like, while in DA:O you play a character that is made into a Grey Warden and even has one of six Origins foisted upon them but simulataneously able to alter most of the aspects within those roles. 

This, I think, is the best route for creating a roleplay game, due to the fact that it allows the player to create the role he wants while still having a strong storyline to facilitate your roleplaying.  JRPGs are more like interactive novels, you may get to make some choices along the way but it's not your character but the designers that you are playing with, and they have already made all the decisions for you, whereas WRPGs like Oblivion and Morrowind allow you to create a character however you see fit, but due to the lack of a real story or character interaction as a result of this you are not really able to roleplay your character, interacting with objects rather than people.

So, in short, I think the best route with the current technology we have for RPGs is to give the player a role like Alliance Soldier or Grey Warden and then allow the player to define their character within.  It doesn't always work perfectly, some of the methods used to try and get you to join the Grey Wardens for instance seems contrived and forced, but considering the limitations it is still the best method, and after all, even in tabletop we restrict ourselves to the type of group we are playing with and the intentions of the campaign (if the DM is running a criminals campaign you don't play a cop unless you want to cause problems for everyone).

[Elanareon]

I just noticed, all of these except number 1 was in BG2, or am i wrong?

[FlintlockJazz]

RetrOldSchool wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

First the good...
3. Reminds me alot of how travel was done in BG1, you would have to go through all the intervening locations first before reaching a place for the first time, so not so much a JRPG thing but still a good thing to have.
4. They should have put a cutscene in for when you first entered Denerim to give you a feeling of entering a city definitely at least.
5. More convos are always good, maybe get it up to PS:Torment level!
And now the bad...
1. Not so impressed with 'special attacks'. In fact, if removing special attacks meant that we could have more NPCs in our active party at a time I would prefer that, as it was supposed to be the required micromanagement of party members that forced them to restrict us to four. Also, I have never been a fan of making the player specialise into weapon types, as it means you just focus on one weapon per character and that's it. Much better to have skills that apply to all weapon types, with the effects of the skills maybe being altered by the weapon you are using, so a skill that makes your two-handed weapon strikes harder also makes your one-handed weapon strikes faster (just picking stuff out of the air for that example, I'm sure there's a better way of doing it).
2. If I defeat the bad guy him constantly getting away without any option for me to stop him from doing so would ****** me off. Show him appearing every now and again and chat with him, maybe trick me into thinking he's on my side, but if I fight him don't pull the rug out from under me!

thanks for the good feedback!
3. true! BG did this very well, but most recent WRPG's (at least from Bioware) is missing this, while JRPG's got it in abundance. WK is a good example, you should have to go through the cave whch is mentioned from time to time!
4. yeah,just a little something! one for every new loation the first time you visit.
5. Exactly! 

1. thats a good point! the reason i thoughtof it is because as a mage you have a huge variety of spells, but talents as a rogue or warr is more restricted. But you make a good point there!

2. Youre right, you wouldnt want it to be some bad guy that you almost kill every time but he keeps escaping. But I think with the right script a returning nemesis could be great! 

For example: He/She could start off as an ally, maybe a "blue circle" non controllable NPC that helps you fight through a dungeon only to trick you and leave you fighting some monster at the end.
Then said nemesiis could return with henchmen later and let the henchmen do the dirtywork, only to flee when you dispose of them.
Then maybe the next time after that you never get the chance to fight him, instead he tricks some authority to arrest you etc etc. As long as every encounter makes sense and with a real good script and agood voice actor as the nemesis, I think it could ad a lot!

Actually I think you're right about the reoccuring villain, as BG1 and 2 did actually manage to pull it off, BG2 especially as Irenicus is in the intro to it AND he's the first person you meet ingame, and shows up throughout the rest of the game to the very end.

[RetrOldSchool]

MightySword wrote...

If it's simply overlap, or great minds think alike, or even inspring or borrowing idea then it's not a problem. Because even when two identical idea are adapt, the difference in culture and execution will likely result in two distint products. What I'm worried now, and feel like it's actually happening, is a "modified by will" process that's taking place with JRPG. They don't feel like they're "inspired" by WRPG, but like I said, they try to "appeal" to Western audience. To me that's a problem.

That might be a good point. 2 of (IMO) the best JRPG's of the last couple of years are Persona 4 and Dragon Quest VIII and both are really core JRPG's, ofc completely different, but they are both extremely japanese. And I agree that there's a difference between "being inspired" and "trying to appeal". I think that "being inspired" is in general a good thing, while "trying to appeal" can be bad, since the JRPG makers might not even understand how to appeal to a western audience, they might've misinterpreted what western gamers like about RPG's in general.

[RetrOldSchool]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Wow, liking how the discussion is going on here!    Regarding how JRPGs and WRPGs are different due to the former's focus on linear story and the latter's focus on customisation, I have to agree in general that is true, but BioWare's games tends to be the exception.  Most of their games have a strong central story that carries you through the game, but with a customisable character that often still has a specific role put upon them, for instance in Mass Effect you are 'forced' to play a member of the Alliance military, but within that role you are able to make whatever changes you like, while in DA:O you play a character that is made into a Grey Warden and even has one of six Origins foisted upon them but simulataneously able to alter most of the aspects within those roles. 

This, I think, is the best route for creating a roleplay game, due to the fact that it allows the player to create the role he wants while still having a strong storyline to facilitate your roleplaying.  JRPGs are more like interactive novels, you may get to make some choices along the way but it's not your character but the designers that you are playing with, and they have already made all the decisions for you, whereas WRPGs like Oblivion and Morrowind allow you to create a character however you see fit, but due to the lack of a real story or character interaction as a result of this you are not really able to roleplay your character, interacting with objects rather than people.

So, in short, I think the best route with the current technology we have for RPGs is to give the player a role like Alliance Soldier or Grey Warden and then allow the player to define their character within.  It doesn't always work perfectly, some of the methods used to try and get you to join the Grey Wardens for instance seems contrived and forced, but considering the limitations it is still the best method, and after all, even in tabletop we restrict ourselves to the type of group we are playing with and the intentions of the campaign (if the DM is running a criminals campaign you don't play a cop unless you want to cause problems for everyone).

I agree with that. I loved Fallout 3, but I think DA:O and ME are better, thanks to the story being a lot better and more focused thanks to the restrictions.
I also think that (when the story is good enough) the JRPG formula, where the role playing is more in party composition, skill and leveling etc, works well too, even with very little or no choices to affect the story. 

And I also agree that the Bioware concept of putting the player in a pre-chosen role, but with the freedom to define the personality, morals etc is the ultimate form of RPG's (for now)