135 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth_Trethon]

JRPG=TRASH......all of them 100% pure and undiluted trash without any good parts.



Western RPG=AWESOME.....pure and undiluted 100% awesomeness without any negatives.

[the_one_54321]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

JRPG=TRASH......all of them 100% pure and undiluted trash without any good parts.

Western RPG=AWESOME.....pure and undiluted 100% awesomeness without any negatives.

this post=IGNORANT... the type of unyeilding opinionated garbage that... crap, i just got trolled didint i. <_<

[Revik]

It was explained already that WRPG's and JRPG's main difference is how the central character is set up.  Is the central character a predefined loaded character or is the central character a person of your choosing.

Old school WRPG's had you using a preloaded party.  Games like the original Bard's Tale, Gold Box D&D, Might and Magic games.  If you did have companions you could recruit they were more or less forced upon you like Ultima.  These NPC's were lifeless.

When JRPG's came around they took this formula and rather than have lifeless NPC's they thought to breathe life into your characters.  Characters that actually said stuff and interacted with your character.  Of course in order to pull this off a predefined character needed to be done so they could allow interaction to exist.  (Memory was a big commodity at this time)

Bioware was actually one of the first Western RPG makers to actually incorporate some JRPG elements into their RPGs.  Namely NPC interaction but they were successful in adding this while keeping the central character your own to a certain extent but in order to accomplish this some of your background information was given.  As in your character was NOT entirely your own.  In BG you were born from a God.  KoTOR you were really your own enemy.  ME you were part of the Alliance Navy who eventually became a spectre.

So I don't see why people are dissing JRPG's.  Games like BG, KOTOR, DA and ME that people herald so much are JRPG influenced.  The only people here who would say that weren't old enough to know what OLD SCHOOL really was.  OLD SCHOOL was Commodore 64, Apple IIe days. 

At the moment I think Bioware is already utilizing the best of both worlds.  Having more cinematic scenes could be nice but not necessary.  Having level ups to abilities I absolutely disagree with.  Firstly we already have something similar but the only reason why JRPG's having these level ups is because they KNOW their battles are boring and tedious so they create this mechanic so when you aren't totally wasting your time.  I'd rather have things like they are now where fighting a battle there is always a threat of death.

That is my take anyways.

[MightySword]

Firstly we already have something similar but the only reason why JRPG's having these level ups is because they KNOW their battles are boring and tedious so they create this mechanic so when you aren't totally wasting your time.  I'd rather have things like they are now where fighting a battle there is always a threat of death.

Not really, this coming back to what someone mentioned earlier that when people think of JRPG they tend to think Final Fantasy or maybe one or two big franchise. JRPG are much more than what those series have and IMHO this is one area it's far suppass WRPG. Also mentioned earlier (by someone else), WRPG's combat only has one base model - the D&D system - and about 3 or 4 derivative/variation of the base model. Maybe I should say two counting the action system introduced lately by Fable/ME/JE. JRPG ... I think most people think about the classic turn base ATB gauge system and believe it's the only system. JRPG, for a rough estimation, has about 5 or 6 base systems with about a dozen of derivative/variation among them. And it seems every two or three years they come up with a new base system.


Here are a few examples of recent JRPG that's "not like what you think" when it comes to combat.

Rouge Galaxy

Star Ocean melee character
Star Ocean Range character

And most recently - I played the demo of this game and from what I can see, it's a very nice blend of Tactic and Action on a much more higher level than any WRPG have manage to achieved so far: Resonant of Fate . And just a few notes on this video, what you see is an actual battle from start to finish, no CGI or edit. While WRPG laude cinematic gaming as a new evolution in recent years, JRPG have been doing that for a while now. And to WRPG it seems cinematic gaming is an intergration of cutsceen, JRPG had advanced to a level where cinematic is intergrated into the gameplay itself.

Modifié par MightySword, 04 janvier 2010 - 07:08 .

[UBER GEEKZILLA]

the guy at top is right though jrpgs are ALWAYS the same thing

your a liitle boy on an epic quest to save the kindom from an evil empire and one of your companions HAPPENS to be a princess....and theres always cutezy animals u fight...really odd out of the ordinary characters..and boring gameplay where u and oppenent take turns hitting eachother



japanese rpgs=LAME AND UNORIGINAL



western rpgs= AWSOME AND ORIGINAL

[NeroSparda]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the guy at top is right though jrpgs are ALWAYS the same thing
your a liitle boy on an epic quest to save the kindom from an evil empire and one of your companions HAPPENS to be a princess....and theres always cutezy animals u fight...really odd out of the ordinary characters..and boring gameplay where u and oppenent take turns hitting eachother

japanese rpgs=LAME AND UNORIGINAL

western rpgs= AWSOME AND ORIGINAL

BZZT. Shin Megami Tensei once again, the story usually takes place after the world have fallen to hell or in the process, and as I mentioned earlier, you fight against Demons (though I forgot to mention Angels as well). Though very few are cutsy, but can easily kill you. And isn't Tactics supposed to be turn based? Tales of Series and Star Ocean are real time combat systems that are in the RPG realm. Tales of Vesperia has the oldest main character in known JRPGs, whom is in his twenties and he is not out to save the Kingdom. And in Tales of Abyss, the main character was a rich kid who wouldn't give a rats ass about the rest of the world. Though he had the most character development after he was the reason millions of people died AND what he really is. Not destined for great things, it is because he is a clone, destroying his mind and made him a emotional wreck. Need I also mention Tales of Series have better discrimination compared to Dragon Age? Obvious in Phantasia and Symphonia when some of the characters are prohibited from entering an Town due to their blood. The half-elves are constantly discriminated by humans and elves, while some of the half-elves do the same only in Symphonia, by harvesting humans.

Golden Sun is another example in different plot, by having it so that the first group believe they were out to save the world. But in reality, what they were to join the second game's group after discovering -Oh wait, spoilers. Well I didn't give much spoilers in the Tales of department. As those are all minor and doesn't tell all of the story.

Modifié par NeroSparda, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:24 .

[Schneidend]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the guy at top is right though jrpgs are ALWAYS the same thing
your a liitle boy on an epic quest to save the kindom from an evil empire and one of your companions HAPPENS to be a princess....and theres always cutezy animals u fight...really odd out of the ordinary characters..and boring gameplay where u and oppenent take turns hitting eachother

japanese rpgs=LAME AND UNORIGINAL

western rpgs= AWSOME AND ORIGINAL

The ignorance of this post amuses Segard Cousland. See how he smirks?

[the_one_54321]

i bet some people claim that Xenogears is unoriginal just because it has mechs in it.

[SleeplessInSigil]

heheh COUNTERTROLL:

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the guy at top is right though Wrpgs are ALWAYS the same thing
you're a predestined son-of-a-god/freak/member-of-elite-order/villain with-memory-loss (Bhaalspawn/Warden/Revan) on an epic quest to save the kingdom/galaxy from an evil empire and one of your companions HAPPENS to be a princess/king/some-kind-of-royalty/member-of-elite-order (Anomen, Nalia, cough Ferelden's heir cough)....and theres always only LoTR/D&D creatures u meet n fight..Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, DRAGONS..and maybe a variation on African/Asian stereotypes...really bland seen-one-seen-em-all ordinary characters..and boring gameplay where u click once on an opponent and just keep an eye on the HP bars and cooldowns to chug a potion or cast a spell every few minutes....and the only choice in weapons you get is little sword, large sword, very-large sword and uhm...big/pointy sticks

japanese rpgs=ORIGINAL for the most part

western rpgs= UNORIGINAL for the most part ..not that unoriginality has to mean that it's bad

Fixd.

Countertrolling done for the day. I feel bad. 

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 05 janvier 2010 - 04:33 .

[Fangirl17]

I love this game the way it is!

[SleeplessInSigil]

Fangirl17 wrote...

I love this game the way it is!

+1

[NDAv]

Although I dislike Japanese RPGs in general, I do hope people realize that early Japanese RPGs were heavily inspired by western computer RPGs, such as the Wizardry series. The original Final Fantasy is very similar to a computer RPG.



My fav Japanese RPGs are Paper Mario series, though I am not sure what elements of those games can be incorporated into Dragon Age. That game is like the anti-RPG. Can you imagine a story-driven, dialogue-heavy RPG where the protagonist never says anything, except for the occasional one-liner? That's Paper Mario, and I think it is hilarious.



Perhaps what Dragon Age can improve on is the art and the visuals, which the second Paper Mario game uses so perfectly to create a consistent game world and atmosphere, and at the same time add new dimensions to the gameplay. The graphical elements in Dragon Age don't have an effect on the gameplay, and there are are many times playing Dragon Age where a visual element looks so out of place. Like the oversized hands. Ugh.

[NDAv]

Bioware was actually one of the first Western RPG makers to actually incorporate some JRPG elements into their RPGs.  Namely NPC interaction but they were successful in adding this while keeping the central character your own to a certain extent but in order to accomplish this some of your background information was given.  As in your character was NOT entirely your own.

In this respect, Baldur's Gate, is very similar to a DOS RPG from way back 1992 called Challenge of the Five Realms, where you play as prince that you can customize and amass a party of NPCs. So I wouldn't say Bioware was one of the first western developers to do this.

[Nuclear_Pony]

I loathe JRPG's in general and always considered WRPG's superior. Point 3 and 4 are something I may be able to agree on. Or at least to ponder on or consider. But the other ones would kill the game for me.

[Ariellog]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the guy at top is right though jrpgs are ALWAYS the same thing
your a liitle boy on an epic quest to save the kindom from an evil empire and one of your companions HAPPENS to be a princess....and theres always cutezy animals u fight...really odd out of the ordinary characters..and boring gameplay where u and oppenent take turns hitting eachother

japanese rpgs=LAME AND UNORIGINAL

western rpgs= AWSOME AND ORIGINAL

Hmm Humans that ruined everything , Elfs that live in forest , and dwarfs that live underground and only care about them selves ...hmmm i think i heard that story before .

Modifié par Ariellog, 05 janvier 2010 - 07:58 .

[Ariellog]

if u want good JRPG's become a fan of Atlus, one of the most under rated company's IMO.

[saori_shinjiro]

I think the main reason as to why JRPGs are filled with bridge maps (maps that you need to pass through in order to get to a destination) is because JRPGs follow a linear story flow. Dragon Age can be linear in a way, but after Lothering, you get the option to go anywhere and proceed to follow the quests in any order. There's no real restriction to where you go or what you do. In JRPGs though, the developers, more often than not, give you a predetermined path to follow.

Think of Pokemon, for example. Professor Oak would tell you to deliver a parcel to the next town, then the next course of action would be for you to go back. You also get badges in a particular order because an obstacle would prevent you from going to the next town before you get a certain badge or HM. Pardon me for this example, but it's the first thing that came to my mind with JRPG path restrictions. Because JRPGs are predetermined, they create maps for you to go through that add extra challenges so the game doesn't seem too straightforward. DA on the other hand allows you to jump from one place to another so go-betweens don't really become that important. I think the reason why Lothering was, as you described it, a "less story focused location" was because the game was linear up to this point. I mean, after Ostagar you're forced straight to the Wilds, then to Lothering. After Lothering is the open-exploration of Ferelden, and lack of such locations.

And also, if you had a map for the different places you could go to and from, that'd be a lot of maps to render. (A pass from Lothering to Denerim, Lothering to Redcliffe, Lothering to the Frostback Mountains, Denerim to Redcliffe, and the list goes on and on.)



On another note, to generalize JRPGs as unorriginal and boring is really unfair. I can only accept such a statement from someone who has actually gone and played all JRPGs out there.

Modifié par saori_shinjiro, 05 janvier 2010 - 08:23 .

[RetrOldSchool]

Nuclear_Pony wrote...

I loathe JRPG's in general and always considered WRPG's superior. Point 3 and 4 are something I may be able to agree on. Or at least to ponder on or consider. But the other ones would kill the game for me.

Actually BG2 did both 2 (with Irenicus) and 5 (more interaction between the NPC's) pretty well if I remember correctly, so I dont think any of those elements would ruin a DA sequel, if implemented in the right way.

KOTOR also had a bit of 2 (with Darth Malak) and I'm not sure but I think it had some more interactions between the NPC's as well. In DA:O most of the interaction between NPC's is handled by the player triggering a short converstaion by walking past certain spots in villages etc. For instance the bridge in Lothering. I think it could be handled better in the future with more interaction.

[KalosCast]

It's pretty easy to pick out the Zero Punctuation fanboys in this thread. Jus' sayin'

[RetrOldSchool]

saori_shinjiro wrote...

I think the main reason as to why JRPGs are filled with bridge maps (maps that you need to pass through in order to get to a destination) is because JRPGs follow a linear story flow. Dragon Age can be linear in a way, but after Lothering, you get the option to go anywhere and proceed to follow the quests in any order. There's no real restriction to where you go or what you do. In JRPGs though, the developers, more often than not, give you a predetermined path to follow.

Think of Pokemon, for example. Professor Oak would tell you to deliver a parcel to the next town, then the next course of action would be for you to go back. You also get badges in a particular order because an obstacle would prevent you from going to the next town before you get a certain badge or HM. Pardon me for this example, but it's the first thing that came to my mind with JRPG path restrictions. Because JRPGs are predetermined, they create maps for you to go through that add extra challenges so the game doesn't seem too straightforward. DA on the other hand allows you to jump from one place to another so go-betweens don't really become that important. I think the reason why Lothering was, as you described it, a "less story focused location" was because the game was linear up to this point. I mean, after Ostagar you're forced straight to the Wilds, then to Lothering. After Lothering is the open-exploration of Ferelden, and lack of such locations.

And also, if you had a map for the different places you could go to and from, that'd be a lot of maps to render. (A pass from Lothering to Denerim, Lothering to Redcliffe, Lothering to the Frostback Mountains, Denerim to Redcliffe, and the list goes on and on.)

On another note, to generalize JRPGs as unorriginal and boring is really unfair. I can only accept such a statement from someone who has actually gone and played all JRPGs out there.

I think that's the way the devs reasoned too, most probably. And its a very good point you make, it's way easier to implement bridge maps (thanks for a good word to describe it) in a more linear game. Bridge maps can take away focus from the main story if they are too many.

Bridge maps could however be used in a great manner (as long as it isn't over used) in a game like DA:O too.

For example: when going to the Brecilian forest you could first enter a small village in the outskirts of the forest. This could be the same village that the humans the player encounter in the Dalish origin are from so if you play a Dalish elf, then there could be different things happening in the village depending on how you treated those humans.
Also the cave that you are told about in the WK quest could be a great bridge map, that would make the DLC longer and also ad extra immersion.

And true, generalization is bad, in general
I can't see the story in games like the Persona series or Xenogears to be unoriginal by far.

[saori_shinjiro]

That's also true. Such maps would be nice, if you don't put in too much. It helps flesh out the game, and adds things to do.

[jtd00123]

Revik wrote...

It was explained already that WRPG's and JRPG's main difference is how the central character is set up.  Is the central character a predefined loaded character or is the central character a person of your choosing.

Old school WRPG's had you using a preloaded party.  Games like the original Bard's Tale, Gold Box D&D, Might and Magic games.  If you did have companions you could recruit they were more or less forced upon you like Ultima.  These NPC's were lifeless.

When JRPG's came around they took this formula and rather than have lifeless NPC's they thought to breathe life into your characters.  Characters that actually said stuff and interacted with your character.  Of course in order to pull this off a predefined character needed to be done so they could allow interaction to exist.  (Memory was a big commodity at this time)


So I don't see why people are dissing JRPG's.  Games like BG, KOTOR, DA and ME that people herald so much are JRPG influenced.  The only people here who would say that weren't old enough to know what OLD SCHOOL really was.  OLD SCHOOL was Commodore 64, Apple IIe days. 

I'm sorry, I stumbled upon this and had to comment.  The first RPG to have interactions with party members was Ultima IV.  And it was even more ahead of its time becaue it had dialogue trees, something borrowed in modern WRPGs and still remains absent in most JRPGs. Ultima, at least the later games, also had a complex story that delt with complex moral issues.    Hell, they even state Ultima as a huge influence themselves.

It wasn't perfect, and JRPGs would later surpass Ultima in character development (like Bioware is doing to most JRPGs now), but Ultima was definitely a pioneer in bringing interaction between party members (companions) and the world alike. 

You could argue that Bioware is the first to combine Western RPG gameplay with Japanese attention to aesthetics.  That is the only thing I will give JRPGs credit for, and even that is debatable.  There was a universal focus of most developers to try to make their games more story-driven and graphically appealing at around this time, in all genres.   THe first games to have character-driven stories as a central focus was in the PC adventure games.  JRPGs (or RPGs in general) did not start this trend.  CRPGs were struggling to find their niche market at home due to the rising popularity of adventure games and console games, while JRPGs were all the rave on their home turf.  It was inevitable that the first big budget blockbuster RPG would come from the Land of the Rising Sun because Square had the resources to do it.  Was FFVII new and original?  Hell no.  Did it popularize the RPG?  Yes. 

  In fact, the first game to truely give me a sense of immersion seen in the movies and developed characters were old-school point-and-click adventures, or PC games like System Shock (also a WRPG). The way the story unfolds in JRPGs seem to owe more to point-and-click adventure games than CRPGs; the story and characters are developed in predetermined moments of the game with little player choice in the matter, but the end result is a better told story with more complex characters.   When people were raving that SNES games now had a plot and cutscenes, all I could think that it has already been done with Day of the Tentacle, Kings Quest, Gabriel Knight, etc.  (and better too IMO).  FFVII, which popularized the cinematic appeal in gaming, wasn't new in this regard.

What Bioware did was succesfully give us a complex story and charactes without sacrificing player choice.  You have to give them credit for that!

Im open to the possibility that there is a JRPG influence in Bioware games, but the CRPG influence is clearly greater, from the dialogue trees to the player emphasis on choice, exploration, and freedom.   Here is what IGN says on Ultima IV: 

This was the first true morality system in games, which is now a
standard part of almost every Western-developed RPG. Dragon Age, Mass
Effect, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic -- all of BioWare's
RPGs are disciples of Ultima IV. They feature moral choices,
consequences for evil actions and a complex dialogue tree, all of which
may never have existed without Ultima IV.

Modifié par jtd00123, 01 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[WilliamShatner]

From replies like the ones in this thread you'd think you'd die if you *gasp* enjoyed both WRPGs and JRPGs.



It's like saying I can't enjoy a comedy film if I like an action film or I can't enjoy horror if I enjoy musicals.



It also smacks of an lack of understanding/elitism towards a genre as well as penis swinging. Yes JRPGs handled things differently and have differently concerns than WRPGs. That doesn't make it any less valid.



Also I too like CG cutscenes. I never get why we went to beautifully rendered cutscenes like in FFVII and VII to ingame cutscenes. I know people say it breaks the immersion but for me it's the opposite. I find have a CG cutscene allows me to connect the graphically limited ingame character to a beautifully rendered CG character... my mind connects the two.



I think it's sad that those awesome CG rendings of Leliana and Morrigan in the trailer are nowhere to be seen in the game.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

Well to be honest I love both WRPGS and JRPGs. Somethings feel a bit empty with most WRPG games. For example, most wrpgs have very little cutscene value. DAO had some but not where id hoped it to be. Also most jrpgs have enemies that get under your skin because of frequency in appearance DAO didnt have that at all. There was no sense of he kicked my arse mocked me left me for dead and walked away it was just. I betray you in the begining and ditch u for dead. By the time u start it feels like the middle of the game because of ostagar. When in jrpgs there are numerous battles most that make you feel like damn that was awesome. I agree with pretty much everything in the first post.