7349 réponses à ce sujet

[Chashan]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

I have got to ask: what character, and what development?

Present since ME1, only single individuals of their lot are ever portrayed in a less-than-likable way, to be revealed to be naught but shackled auto-harvesting units in the space of a few minutes, at the very end...

Does not sound like too much of substance missing, really.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

And your point is...what, again, exactly?

That we should like what you like?

Modifié par PKchu, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Ghost]

PKchu wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

And your point is...what, again, exactly?

That we should like what you like?

He's stating his opinion.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

But his opinion is essentially, "The ending is good and therefore this mod is bad."

Everyone in this thread's already thought about how they like or dislike the ending. Everyone who is a fan of the series and posts on the BSN has, it's inescapable.

There really isn't any value in non-constructive criticism like "this is a shoddy hack job." I mean the only thing I can take away from his post is that the author of it is condescending, opinionated, and seems to be implying I should feel bad/dumb for disagreeing with him.

Something like, "the transitions are bad here, I dislike the sound track, you do too much narrative damage by removing the catalyst because X, etc." I understand more. But sometimes people give me the sense they're unhappy other people are enjoying something.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:32 .

[Dr_Extrem]

his good right .. but the way he does is blunt, immature and contra-productive.

this is just a lousy attempt to troll.


there is no character developement .. the reapers are just left what they are .. dangerous killing machines, that must be stopped ..

this mod keeps them what they are .. the catalyst turnes them into something weak and pitiyfull.


it is a fourth choice .. by installing this mod, you choosed to play this ending. you just make your choice at the beginning of the game - not at the end. this mod adds a new ending ..

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[jstme]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

Good thing you do not have to download it then, isn't it? 
I would also like to remind you that breathing is something that your organism did tens of millions of times through  respiratory system, and yet it does not mean that trying to be original and attempting to get oxygen through other systems that are very far from head but still have contact with the endvironment - is a good idea.
Trying to be (Deus Ex) original in cliche Mass Effect type of story is indeed similar to breathing through you know what.   
This is exactly why it worked so well.
P.S
Shoddy hack job?
Reaper's character development?
I sense artistic integrity overload here.

Modifié par jstme, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:41 .

[WhiteKnyght]

PKchu wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

And your point is...what, again, exactly?

That we should like what you like?

That's certainly the message most of you guys send whenever the official ending is bashed and anybody tries defending it, or even talking about it without negativity.

'Our opinion must be embraced by all. Anybody who disagrees with us is stupid.' - Ending Haters

[Dr_Extrem]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

PKchu wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

And your point is...what, again, exactly?

That we should like what you like?

That's certainly the message most of you guys send whenever the official ending is bashed and anybody tries defending it, or even talking about it without negativity.

'Our opinion must be embraced by all. Anybody who disagrees with us is stupid.' - Ending Haters

are we a bit on edge? .. generalisations do not help.

i for instance can differentiate between the real endings and this fan made mod. if i join a thread where the endings are discussed, i discuss on the base of the original endings.
most of the time, a" pro ender" brings up this mod, to bash anti enders .. wich is blund and unworthy.

you are preaching, that we have to emprace the original endings, in a thread, that is for a fan fiction ...


something makes me believe, that some disgruntled pro enders deliberatly want to get this post closed. i hope i am wrong

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[WhiteKnyght]

jstme wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

Good thing you do not have to download it then, isn't it? 
I would also like to remind you that breathing is something that your organism did tens of millions of times through  respiratory system, and yet it does not mean that trying to be original and attempting to get oxygen through other systems that are very far from head but still have contact with the endvironment - is a good idea.
Trying to be (Deus Ex) original in cliche Mass Effect type of story is indeed similar to breathing through you know what.   
This is exactly why it worked so well.
P.S
Shoddy hack job?
Reaper's character development?
I sense artistic integrity overload here.

Yeah being on a console is a good thing for once.

Also I've looked up Deus Ex's ending. The only similarity is that you're presented with three possibilities and asked to choose, or you can walk away. The choices themselves, the context around them, and the results of said choices are completely different.

Also yes, the MEHEM leaves the Reapers as one dimensional cartoon characters who pass themselves off as villains. Hell, even Skynet in The Terminator had a reason for why it commanded the machines to destroy organics. It was a weak one(programming error made it see all life as a threat to it, and it was programmed to eliminate all threats) but it was something. In this, the Reapers have no purpose, no reason justify their existence even to themsleves, regardless of whether or not you or anybody agrees with it. Unless of course you still acknowledge Leviathan, which supports the official ending.

But know this: If Mass Effect 4 is a sequel. Your ending wont be acknowledged on save import, mine will.

[Dr_Extrem]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

[But know this: If Mass Effect 4 is a sequel. Your ending wont be acknowledged on save import, mine will.

now you are assuming, that we all buy me4 in the first pace ...

i dont think so ... the new mass effect game is most likely made for the next generation of consoles .. i dont think, that they will transfer savegames from your old, to your new console.

shepards story is over - they have stated it many times .. and they work around our decisions anyway ..


did the aliens in war of the worlds need a background or reason to fullfill their purpose?

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 15 décembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[Mr.House]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

:lol: My sides are hurting. What character development?

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

That's certainly the message most of you guys send whenever the official ending is bashed and anybody tries defending it, or even talking about it without negativity.

'Our opinion must be embraced by all. Anybody who disagrees with us is stupid.' - Ending Haters

I'm glad you enjoyed the original ending - keep on enjoying it and Mass Effect.

I've personally never said anything like that, I really don't appreciate the characterization, and I don't really think further conversations would be that productive. There's a whole forum for ending debate.

"But know this: If Mass Effect 4 is a sequel. Your ending wont be acknowledged on save import, mine will."

That doesn't bother me. Mass Effect has no real canon and every event happens differently from player to player. ME4 will be its own thing I enjoy on its own merits.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 décembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

[But know this: If Mass Effect 4 is a sequel. Your ending wont be acknowledged on save import, mine will.

now you are assuming, that we all buy me4 in the first pace ...

i dont think so ... the new mass effect game is most likely made for the next generation of consoles .. i dont think, that they will transfer savegames from your old, to your new console.

shepards story is over - they have stated it many times .. and they work around our decisions anyway ..


did the aliens in war of the worlds need a background or reason to fullfill their purpose?

The aliens in War of the Worlds never spoke. The Reapers all rave about how your doom is inevitable/necessary/good/etc.

If the next-gen consoles have backwards compatibility, save import so choices can be remembered is entirely possible. It's also getting where you can store your saves online with PS3 and X-Box. When playing PS4 or 720, the new game can load the save from the PSN/XBL. Shepard's story may be over, but his legacy can live on.

[WhiteKnyght]

Mr.House wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
True on so many levels.

MEHEM is a shoddy hack job that does little more than streamline the ending(making it something that's been done a million times over) and completely **** the Reapers' character development.

:lol: My sides are hurting. What character development?

ME1: Sovereign reveals that the Reapers harvest civlizations at 50,000 year intervals. Players wondered why.

ME2: Harbinger reveals that the Reaper's harvest is a way of saving organics. "Salvation through destruction." Players wonder what that is.

ME3: Catalyst reveals that the Reapers harvest organics and synthetics to preserve them, allowing younger civilizations to evolve and mature in peace without being meddled with or destroyed by synthetics. Question answered/development done.

The fact that you don't like/believe their reasoning is irrelevant. If it was something everybody would agree with, there'd be no need to fight the Reapers because they'd be doing the right thing.

The Reaper's viewpoint is subjective and flawed, and their solution is too extreme. That's why you fight against them.

They develop just fine.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 décembre 2012 - 10:41 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The issue is that the Reapers always told us we could not understand their motivation.

What the Catalyst tells us is confusing in light of the prior actions - there's a tonal shift of the Reapers as true enemies to our friendly guardians. The fact it gives us a choice to kill the Reapers at all is confusing if it really wants Synthesis. It's been argued a billion times, but the Catalyst adds more confusion and questions to a story in need of resolution instead of unnecessary complication.

And it does matter for the Reapers "logic" to make sense - if I can't process the Reaper's opinions because they seem fundamentally flawed, it breaks my immersion in the game. Which is my biggest problem with that whole scene, even beyond the logical elements: it's poorly executed and it happens too fast and divorces you too quickly from what came prior. It's just bad timing and pacing.

Killing the Reapers as you do in MEHEM kills the Catalyst before you even meet him because you have a more intact Crucible higher EMS, etc. It doesn't erase the character from the lore and change the story as it simply kills him before you meet him.

[Dr_Extrem]

and they also said things like: "we are beyond your comprehension"

really? .... sometimes not mentioning a motivation, and leaving THIS open to interpretation, is better than giving 
one that is trivial and illogical.


but pk is right .. this place is meant to discuss this mod and not the endings.


if you dont like it, dont play it ...


and sure . we all deleted our old savegames ...

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Mr.House]

PKchu wrote...

The issue is that the Reapers always told us we could not understand their motivation.

What the Catalyst tells us is confusing in light of the prior actions - there's a tonal shift of the Reapers as true enemies to our friendly guardians. The fact it gives us a choice to kill the Reapers at all is confusing if it really wants Synthesis. It's been argued a billion times, but the Catalyst adds more confusion and questions to a story in need of resolution instead of unnecessary complication.

And it does matter for the Reapers "logic" to make sense - if I can't process the Reaper's opinions because they seem fundamentally flawed, it breaks my immersion in the game. Which is my biggest problem with that whole scene, even beyond the logical elements: it's poorly executed and it happens too fast and divorces you too quickly from what came prior. It's just bad timing and pacing.

Killing the Reapers as you do in MEHEM kills the Catalyst before you even meet him because you have a more intact Crucible higher EMS, etc. It doesn't erase the character from the lore and change the story as it simply kills him before you meet him.

Bingo.

[CommanderVyse]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also I've looked up Deus Ex's ending. The only similarity is that you're presented with three possibilities and asked to choose, or you can walk away. The choices themselves, the context around them, and the results of said choices are completely different.

Please actually play the game you are going to use in your arguements.

Also, please play MEHEM before forming an opinion.


A youtube video cannot capture the emotions one feels when finishing a trilogy 5 years in the making with their Shepard.

[WhiteKnyght]

PKchu wrote...

The issue is that the Reapers always told us we could not understand their motivation.

What the Catalyst tells us is confusing in light of the prior actions - there's a tonal shift of the Reapers as true enemies to our friendly guardians. The fact it gives us a choice to kill the Reapers at all is confusing if it really wants Synthesis. It's been argued a billion times, but the Catalyst adds more confusion and questions to a story in need of resolution instead of unnecessary complication.

And it does matter for the Reapers "logic" to make sense - if I can't process the Reaper's opinions because they seem fundamentally flawed, it breaks my immersion in the game. Which is my biggest problem with that whole scene, even beyond the logical elements: it's poorly executed and it happens too fast and divorces you too quickly from what came prior. It's just bad timing and pacing.

Killing the Reapers as you do in MEHEM kills the Catalyst before you even meet him because you have a more intact Crucible higher EMS, etc. It doesn't erase the character from the lore and change the story as it simply kills him before you meet him.

To be fair, most people don't seem to understand it. Hence why there's so much animosity. It's because machines think with cold logic and calculations, organics think with ethics and feel because of hormones and other stuff. For us, the solution is horrific and impossible to really understand because we are that way. The harvest offered the best statistical result, they weren't programmed to consider organic feelings and the fact that organics would argue against it just proves their assertion about us to them.

Also several parts of the game imply the Catalyst is shackled. Mandates in his programming may force him to give answers insight when asked. But that doesn't necessarily apply to the Reapers themselves because they just follow his orders.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

It's not really "fair" to ask him to play through the whole thing with MEHEM to form an opinion on it. Perfectly possible for him to have his opinion from watching the YouTube video, even if it does feel "better" attached to the actual game.

[Iakus]

Guys don't feed the troll

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also several parts of the game imply the Catalyst is shackled. Mandates in his programming may force him to ...

This is approximately the explanation I believe to explain the ending - the Indoctrination Theory people have it right, except they've inflicted "insanity" on the wrong subject. The only plausible reason for their actions is poor programming, an accident that got way out of control.

It isn't even _that_ bad of an explanation, the Reapers being a cosmic joke. It's just the execution is godawful -
 the Levi scene at the end is almost identicial to the Catalyst conversation, but it feels much more engaging and interesting. The flow of the scene, pacing and _most importantly_ the expectations of the player were not violated in a confusing way. 

I would be OK with a mod that made the "insane catalyst" interpretation more clean, but that veers into fanfic territory when you begin to add lore instead of redact material.

That whole bit just "feels" wrong, and they've changed it twice now.

"Guys don't feed the troll"

Eh, the newer opinions are phrased in a more polite and actual "I believe this because Y" way, even if it's offtopic. Might be good for another thread to resume discussion.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 décembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[CommanderVyse]

As there is no PS3 version, it is currently impossible for The Grey Nayr to see his Shepard in the MEHEM. How is his opinion affected by this limitation?


(and I apologize to The Grey Nayr if you are in fact not a he)

[WhiteKnyght]

wwinters99 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Also I've looked up Deus Ex's ending. The only similarity is that you're presented with three possibilities and asked to choose, or you can walk away. The choices themselves, the context around them, and the results of said choices are completely different.

Please actually play the game you are going to use in your arguements.

Also, please play MEHEM before forming an opinion.


A youtube video cannot capture the emotions one feels when finishing a trilogy 5 years in the making with their Shepard.

Deux Ex is a PS2 game. I only have a PS3. Plus the facts speak for themselves.

DE: Destroy the worlds communications and plunge the planet into a new dark age.
ME: Destroy the Reapers. Tech is only screwed in the worst possible variant, which also kills 90% of life in the galaxy. Not the same as DE.

DE: Denton merges with Helios and rules the world as an all knowing entity.
ME: Become an immortal AI and protect the galaxy or lead the galaxy depending on your in-game morality. This might be the only halfway comparable scenario. But mortals becoming gods or godlike beings have been a part of fictional lore in our world for a lot longer than either of these games.

DE: Resurrect the Illuminati and use tech from Area 51 to rule the world in secret.
ME: Sacrifice your own life to alter everyone in the galaxy to be organic synthetic hybrids, creating a golden age of peace and understanding. Completely different than DE.

DE: Walk away and do nothing.
ME: Refuse to use the Crucible and fight conventionally. Which results in your defeat.

You were saying?

Also I've seen some of MEHEM. Only thing I really liked about it was that Harbinger was made to speak. Though his lines could have been better chosen as I've said here before.

[WhiteKnyght]

wwinters99 wrote...

As there is no PS3 version, it is currently impossible for The Grey Nayr to see his Shepard in the MEHEM. How is his opinion affected by this limitation?


(and I apologize to The Grey Nayr if you are in fact not a he)

I am a man. Just for the record. Nayr is my real name, Ryan, spelt backwards. The grey part is a DA reference.