116 réponses à ce sujet

[ManiacG]

DA2, nuff said

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Personally I think failure-prone is the wrong term here. From what people are contributing to this forum, it seems like we're talking about a "character who is frequently wracked by hardship", which is a type of tragic hero.

[nightscrawl]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

In fact I don't even understand why so many people fancy the idea of super heroes like Spidermand and batman. I thought those were utterly silly and childish but it's amazing that many adults still love super hero cliche.

You know why those archetypes are so popular? It's because real life SUCKS. Thousands of people become victims of something or someone in real life every single day. As much as I'm a supporter of real life law and order, the legal system doesn't always work the way it should, for various reasons. I like that I get to choose the morality in my games and outright kill some child rapist, or the murderer of my PC's mother. You can't do that in real life, nor should we be able to. But we CAN do that in games, and it's refreshing to think "finally, I can just give that bad guy what he deserves."

[labargegrrrl]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...








There has been not single Bioware game in which the protagonist is born without a secret background or special ability.

soooo....by that logic, we should eliminate the mage class altogether then?  'cause i don't see that going down very well.  just sayin'.

[Maria Caliban]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

None of the heroes were BORN super.

Revan.

Midi-chlorians!

[Killer3000ad]

I don't know man, Hawke was pretty much a failure through DA2. Couldn't save sibling, couldn't save mom, couldn't stop Chantry-mage war, couldn't stop Anders from blowing up a church.

[Sejborg]

Hawke was a failure.

[Baldrick67]

You must not of played DA2.

Hawke watches impotently as his family is slaughered around him. He cannot stop Anders blowing up the chantry and all the good mages from embracing blood magic even if you side with them.

I doubt he could boil water without razing a house to the ground.

[Guilebrush]

As people in the thread have repeatedly pointed out Hawke for all the good being champion of Kirkwall did for him/her was more or less a prisoner of circumstance, and we see what this brought about in terms of feedback (player agency, apparent lack of).

Personally I really appreciated what they attempted with Hawke, but that's neither here nor there so let's leave it at that. As for the other protagonists; aside from Revan and the Bhaalspawn none of them overtly came across as "the chosen one" instead through the course of their journies they each grow and develop into what they are. Shepard in ME1 is drastically different from the ME3 "savior of the known galaxy Commander Shepard." Oh and even that Shepard failed to save Thessia.

If anything what all the Bioware protagonists have in common is an incredible force of personality more than anything else, and can you really blame them for going in this direction for their stories? For starters it would be incredibly difficult to buy into the premise that your companions are willing to follow your protagonist through the maw of hell if they didn't have a strong sense of belief and devotion in him/her. Plus it makes the protagonist admirable in spite of whatever tragic flaw they may or may not decide to add on as a character trait.

Modifié par Guilebrush, 04 novembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[CrazyRah]

I think people covered this already, Hawke is very prone to fail

[Milan92]

[IntoTheDarkness]

Even when you chooose the path of evil, in Bioware games you are not a subject of redemption, but rather a force that sweeps everything along your path of destruction where as if you were not a protagonist(Bastila, for example) you are a subject of pity and a damsel in distress. I don't like this at all. The universe should not alter to fit needs of the protagonist, rather he/she should be part of its greater flow sometimes against his/her will.

If one of your squadmate died in ME2 and was brought back to life, and if he/she made nothing of his/her death like Shepard does, the character will feel like a brick without emotions. Bioware protagonists are like that.

Hawk is no exception, either. In DA2 Hawk freely roams streets even as a mage; there is no justification other than him/her being a protagonist.


I personally would LOVE to see a nemesis who starts off small and grows bigger to threaten you in the course of the game; it should make the story much more dramatic.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 04 novembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[Sidney]

People want more of a god type character not less based on the crazed reactions to Hawke not being able to save everything in the world and change history. Heck people went BSC over Shep saving all of creation except himself and EDI so apparently even that is too much "failure" for the market.

[L. Han]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "failure prone" character. I assume you are looking for a more realistic character.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

While I disagree with the OP's point that all BioWare heroes have been gifted, I do like the idea of more places in the plot where failure doesn't end the game. One of the absolute best moments in my gaming history was Shepard staring at the com and knowing she had to answer it, but not wanting to have to face the moment and say it out loud. That was such a human moment and it was excellent. Life is just as much about winning as it is about getting back up from getting knocked down. I think allowing a story to continue once the hero has failed at something important really improves a story.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

My response to "Hawke=fail" or "Hawke is failure-prone" postings on this thread.

Hawke's story was basically the story of an ordinary refugee who finds him/herself in the midst of a city in a time of great uncertainty, change, and upheaval. Hawke faces adversity with courage and determination and ultimately rises to power and prominence despite humble beginnings (not being "the chosen one", not having extraordinary powers; even Mage Hawke's powers are fairly typical to any other mage).

This trailer, in certain respects, did a lot to give the wrong impression about who Hawke is. I had a friend who thought, prior to release, that the unnamed bearded mage character was to be Morrigan's god child:

www.youtube.com/watch

I have no problem with epic fantasy RPGs that tell the story of ordinary men and women in extraordinary circumstances. A good literary example would be the heroism of the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

To me Hawke felt very human and at certain times very identifiable.

Overall I think DA II is an unfairly maligned game. It's incomplete, as evidenced by the egregious recycling of environments and I don't think the revamped combat system was entirely successful, I disliked the enemy wave system, and was not overly fond of the dumbing down of the skill trees or the lack of choice in regards to specializations, and the restrictions on the various classes with regards to choice of weapons and fighting style. I would have like to be able to dress my companions up in the armor of my choice.

Having said all that, I applaud DA II for its ambition: setting a game almost entirely in one city was bold, and trying to tell the story of an ordinary person's rise to greatness was a cool idea. I think Kirkwall would have been a lot more memorable and better liked as a setting by fans if the city had been one big environment players were free to explore (free-roam) and if the city had changed over the years (new shops opening up, old ones closing down, different NPCs, NPCs moving around more, an overall sense of life and vibrancy).

I also would have liked the party members to change over the years, e.g. males grow beards, change hairstyles, females change hairstyles too, default outfit changes from act to act.

When all is said and done, I just can't hate DA II. It could have been a great game rather than a decent sequel to an outstanding title and I just don't have any of the hate for  Hawke that some fans do.

Sorry if meandered off-topic here...

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 04 novembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[DPSSOC]

Sidney wrote...
People want more of a god type character not less based on the crazed reactions to Hawke not being able to save everything in the world and change history.

 
I think you misunderstand the complaint.  It's not that Hawke isn't able to save everything, it's that Hawke is fully able to do so but doesn't.  Anybody with two brain cells to knock together could have seen many of the problems Hawke faces coming a mile away.  Sister Petrice, the Qunari in general, Quentin, etc.  These are all things Hawke could have done something about, he/she could have saved lives, averted disaster, and changed things if they'd only had a brain.

DA:O had a number of instances where the PC just couldn't do anything.  Death of the HN family, loss of Tamlen, Death of DN brother, these are all events where the player was powerless that nobody complains about, because it's made abundantly clear that the character is also powerless.  HN it's made clear that if you stay you will die, so you have to go and alert the King, with Tamlen you have both Duncan and the Keeper telling you that if Tamlen was even half as sick as you he's dead by now or worse, DN if you refuse to kill your brother he dies anyway.

With Hawke we dont' get that same sense, there's no reason given for why Hawke can't take action.  That's what bothered players about Hawke, that they frequently found themselves looking at the character and going, "Ok I can't stop this because I'm not given the option what's your excuse?"

[MisterJB]

It's called "Hawke".
Couldn't save his siblings, couldn't save his mother, couldn't stop Anders from becoming a terrorist; just let one of the original Darkspawn walk away; just let a qunari spy walk away.

Rather, could I have a protagonist whose actions affect the world around him?

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

MisterJB wrote...

It's called "Hawke".
Couldn't save his siblings, couldn't save his mother, couldn't stop Anders from becoming a terrorist; just let one of the original Darkspawn walk away; just let a qunari spy walk away.

Rather, could I have a protagonist whose actions affect the world around him?

1. While fleeing from Lothering the sibling who rushes the Ogre. Not much time to react.

2. It's possible to save a sibling from death, if that sibling is brought on the Deep Roads expedition and Anders is present by means of the Joining ritual, making that sibling a Grey Warden.

3. Hawked can't be at home with his/her mother 24/7 or watching her every move. She's a grown woman too.

4. Why would Hawke assume that Anders was going to blow up the Chantry using saltpeter (a component of gunpowder) gathered from dung, unless Hawke has any actual knowledge of chemistry? Besides Qunari "black powder" is a well-guarded secret that Anders must have gone to some trouble to procure.

5. It's implied rather than made apparent that Corypheus survives by channeling his essence through Larius or Janeka.
6. You might have me on the Qunari spy since I honestly can't for the life of me remember that incident...

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 04 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

If I wanted to fail all the time, I'd just turn off the computer and go outside!

[Fortlowe]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

My response to "Hawke=fail" or "Hawke is failure-prone" postings on this thread.

Hawke's story was basically the story of an ordinary refugee who finds him/herself in the midst of a city in a time of great uncertainty, change, and upheaval. Hawke faces adversity with courage and determination and ultimately rises to power and prominence despite humble beginnings (not being "the chosen one", not having extraordinary powers; even Mage Hawke's powers are fairly typical to any other mage).

This trailer, in certain respects, did a lot to give the wrong impression about who Hawke is. I had a friend who thought, prior to release, that the unnamed bearded mage character was to be Morrigan's god child:

www.youtube.com/watch

I have no problem with epic fantasy RPGs that tell the story of ordinary men and women in extraordinary circumstances. A good literary example would be the heroism of the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

To me Hawke felt very human and at certain times very identifiable.

Overall I think DA II is an unfairly maligned game. It's incomplete, as evidenced by the egregious recycling of environments and I don't think the revamped combat system was entirely successful, I disliked the enemy wave system, and was not overly fond of the dumbing down of the skill trees or the lack of choice in regards to specializations, and the restrictions on the various classes with regards to choice of weapons and fighting style. I would have like to be able to dress my companions up in the armor of my choice.

Having said all that, I applaud DA II for its ambition: setting a game almost entirely in one city was bold, and trying to tell the story of an ordinary person's rise to greatness was a cool idea. I think Kirkwall would have been a lot more memorable and better liked as a setting by fans if the city had been one big environment players were free to explore (free-roam) and if the city had changed over the years (new shops opening up, old ones closing down, different NPCs, NPCs moving around more, an overall sense of life and vibrancy).

I also would have liked the party members to change over the years, e.g. males grow beards, change hairstyles, females change hairstyles too, default outfit changes from act to act.

When all is said and done, I just can't hate DA II. It could have been a great game rather than a decent sequel to an outstanding title and I just don't have any of the hate for  Hawke that some fans do.

Sorry if meandered off-topic here...

I'm quoting this just because I think it bears repeating. All of it. Well said.

[Svanhildr]

News of the hour! Hawke is epic fail!

[Wulfram]

The problem with failures from the protagonist is it tends to go hand in hand with railroading.

edit:  I don't think Hawke feels much like an "ordinary person".  That game generally treats him as a standard super epic awesome protagonist, and really fails to acknowledge Hawke's many failures aside from Leandra.

Plus of course you've got the combat, which goes totally against the "ordinary person" idea.  Ordinary people don't jump 30 feet or wipe out 10 people with a single stroke of their sword.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 novembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[nos_astra]

Fortlowe wrote...
As far as I could tell Hawke was just an average smuck that made the most of a series of failures. So that game already got made.

Not really. I mean, I get that they were trying but it just didn't work. Not for me.

The average smuck isn't usually allowed to go all vigilante on strangers because someone said so and get away with it.
It's also unlikely they'll face an army single-handedly, twice, because every one else in the city (universe) is conviently dumb and can't go on without average guy's special brand of snark and killing expertise.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 novembre 2012 - 05:15 .