116 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
1. While fleeing from Lothering the sibling who rushes the Ogre. Not much time to react.

Hawke failed to protect his sibling.

2. It's possible to save a sibling from death, if that sibling is brought on the Deep Roads expedition and Anders is present by means of the Joining ritual, making that sibling a Grey Warden.

Hawke loses his last sibling to either the Taint or the Templars but, to be fair, Carven enjoys being a Grey Warden and Bethany is happy in the Circle.

3. Hawked can't be at home with his/her mother 24/7 or watching her every move. She's a grown woman too.

He still failed to protect her, Failed to locate the criminal in time, failed to catch Quentin in the three years timespan.

4. Why would Hawke assume that Anders was going to blow up the Chantry using saltpeter (a component of gunpowder) gathered from dung, unless Hawke has any actual knowledge of chemistry? Besides Qunari "black powder" is a well-guarded secret that Anders must have gone to some trouble to procure.

It was quite obvious to anyone that Anders was going to do something drastic and Hawke failed to prevent it. If he helps distract the Grand Cleric, that simply aggravates his guilt.

5. It's implied rather than made apparent that Corypheus survives by channeling his essence through Larius or Janeka.

We noticed it. Hawke failed to.

6. You might have me on the Qunari spy since I honestly can't for the life of me remember that incident...

Tallis. You can roleplay a a very Anti-Qunari Hawke but when he has a confirmed spy in possession of sensitive information that could severely damage Qunari illegal activities in Andrastian lands, he just lets her walk away.

[zambingo]

Fortlowe wrote...

As far as I could tell Hawke was just an average smuck that made the most of a series of failures. So that game already got made.

DING DING DING! WINNER!

With that said, I actually didn't mind Hawke's tale being that. I also believe it would have been more well accepted had other issues with the game not been rampant... level re-use, useless inventory etc.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

His called Hawke. Look him up.

[Giubba]

MisterJB wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
1. While fleeing from Lothering the sibling who rushes the Ogre. Not much time to react.

Hawke failed to protect his sibling.

2. It's possible to save a sibling from death, if that sibling is brought on the Deep Roads expedition and Anders is present by means of the Joining ritual, making that sibling a Grey Warden.

Hawke loses his last sibling to either the Taint or the Templars but, to be fair, Carven enjoys being a Grey Warden and Bethany is happy in the Circle.

3. Hawked can't be at home with his/her mother 24/7 or watching her every move. She's a grown woman too.

He still failed to protect her, Failed to locate the criminal in time, failed to catch Quentin in the three years timespan.

4. Why would Hawke assume that Anders was going to blow up the Chantry using saltpeter (a component of gunpowder) gathered from dung, unless Hawke has any actual knowledge of chemistry? Besides Qunari "black powder" is a well-guarded secret that Anders must have gone to some trouble to procure.

It was quite obvious to anyone that Anders was going to do something drastic and Hawke failed to prevent it. If he helps distract the Grand Cleric, that simply aggravates his guilt.

5. It's implied rather than made apparent that Corypheus survives by channeling his essence through Larius or Janeka.

We noticed it. Hawke failed to.

6. You might have me on the Qunari spy since I honestly can't for the life of me remember that incident...

Tallis. You can roleplay a a very Anti-Qunari Hawke but when he has a confirmed spy in possession of sensitive information that could severely damage Qunari illegal activities in Andrastian lands, he just lets her walk away.

Yeah Hawke faced failure in his life but it's not a failed as you imply, deal with it.

[Twisted Path]

To be fair it is easy to forget that Hawke was supposed to be a regular shmoe since throughout the entire game people are constantly fawning all over you and telling you how awesome you are since you "really know how to get things done" or something. Then that gets turned up to 11 in the third act when no one can start a conversation without reminding you that you're the CHAMPION.

On paper Dragon Age 2 had a really interesting premise: guide the rise of the protagonist from poverty to nobility in a city of adventure with a very dark secret. In practice it seemed like they just tried to make Mass Effect 2 in fantasy-land (replace "Shepherd" with "Hawke" and "Commander" with "Champion") and it didn't work out at all. It's a real shame since it's still a great premise.

[Shadow Fox]

I'm really interested to know just how some people expect Hawke to be able to save his sibling from that ogre.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Failure prone protagonists are always more fun to play, almost as much as a Fallout character with 1 Intelligence. Imagine your character miscasting a spell, causing a landslide and burying a dragon

[Maria Caliban]

Giubba1985 wrote...

Yeah Hawke faced failure in his life but it's not a failed as you imply, deal with it.

Hawke didn't 'face' failure. She rolled around in it like a pig in mud on a hot day.

The entire point of the framed narrative is that people think Hawke was a powerful Champion who manipulated events to her desire when the truth is that she was over her head the vast majority of the time. Hawke is the very definition of a hung hero.

[Solmanian]

The arena in JE was the freaking toturial. It'll be a pretty bad toturial if practice enemies would kill you. And the arena in kotor? Actually pretty hard, especialy the fight against bendak starkiller; I "died" several times. Also the arena was using non lethal weaponry except the last battle...

And playing a useless clutz is not fun by any measure. At the very least it'll make the fights mundane, not chalanging: because your charecter is so useless, enemies will be scaled back and you'll spend half the game fighting rodents. There's a reason RPG's often go hand in hand with lvling. And you can be pretty sure that DA3 will have lvling.

And yes, it takes a particular individual, a homicidal sycopath in our case, to be the one charging toward the monsters instead runnning from them. An ordinary guy trapped in extraordinary circumstences is a cliche by itself. What makes it a better cliche than the hero that saves the day?

It is pointless to play a charecter who is even more clueless than urself, which is why I get so annoyed with assassin creed's altair/ezio/conor - how stupid can this guy be that when I tell him to jump to a ledge he instead jump off the building plummiting 200ft into the ground, head first. The whole point of playing fantasy games (for me atleast) is to play something more than yourself. And as seasoned army veteran I have an even higher standards for my PC's...

[BlueMagitek]

Rakia Time wrote...

Failure prone protagonists are always more fun to play, almost as much as a Fallout character with 1 Intelligence. Imagine your character miscasting a spell, causing a landslide and burying a dragon

Even better, as a Wild Mage BG2 character, the first time I casted a spell summoned a demon that looked suspiciously like a bonus boss from BG1.

It ended poorly. <_<

[DPSSOC]

zambingo wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

As far as I could tell Hawke was just an average smuck that made the most of a series of failures. So that game already got made.

DING DING DING! WINNER!

With that said, I actually didn't mind Hawke's tale being that. I also believe it would have been more well accepted had other issues with the game not been rampant... level re-use, useless inventory etc.

I didn't mind that being Hawke's story either, I wouldn't even mind if they did that story again, but if you're going to have a protagonist fail you need to do it right.  You have to make the player believe, when all is said and done, that there was nothing more the character could have done.  Hawke never gave me that impression.  If the player feels there's a conceivable way they could have won, or that they were winning, then they resent the developer for just not giving them that option.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The problem is that players are used to having UNLIMITEED POWAAAAAA and thus always think they could have done more.

When games stroke your ego constantly and you destroy entire armies single-handedly, then NOT having the option to storm a city alone feels off to some players.

FFS, you have people in Call of Cthulu games who seek out Cthulu to attack him. They can't win. It is suicide. It makes no sense for their characters to even try. Yet they still do.
Because it's there and the player menatlity dictates that you kill everything.

So when a plot point comes along and doesn't give Sheppard the option to tear apart reapers with his bare hands, some people feel betrayed.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Can we ever see a failure-prone protagonist?

Not in my game and not my character. I play games to win. I do quests to complete them with expected result. I don't play games to loose. Nor do I expect to fail my mission. Only looser favor to loose in a game.  And I'm not that kind of person. Neither are my created characters.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You post on BSN.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are a looser.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You post on BSN.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are a looser.

Does that include everyone who post on BSN or just me?

[Sabariel]

I thought we already had a protag like that. A protag called Hawke. Unless I was playing DA2 incorrectly and Hawke was actually supposed to save everyone all the time and triumph in the very end....

[Patchwork]

DPSSOC wrote...


I didn't mind that being Hawke's story either, I wouldn't even mind if they did that story again, but if you're going to have a protagonist fail you need to do it right.  You have to make the player believe, when all is said and done, that there was nothing more the character could have done.  Hawke never gave me that impression.  If the player feels there's a conceivable way they could have won, or that they were winning, then they resent the developer for just not giving them that option.

MOTA is the perfect example of this, at the end Tallis leaves with the information and I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is if we as Hawke decide 'nope that intel comes with me'  the game forces us to just stand there as she strolls off. Tallis is a rogue there are plenty of ways for her to escape e.g. Hawke draws which ever weapons, Tallis throws a smoke bomb and after it dissapates there's no sign of her only the heart.

A hero can fail, Leandra's death is a perfect example of this (although that whole questline works better if you don't do the Act 1 stuff), the problem is when the game prevents a logical action because of how they want a storyline to play out. Like all the derp in the Normandy beam scene just because the developers wanted the ship and all the crew to crash on planet X.

[Arppis]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

Personally I think failure-prone is the wrong term here. From what people are contributing to this forum, it seems like we're talking about a "character who is frequently wracked by hardship", which is a type of tragic hero.

Well, it doesn't take major mind to notice what OP really means. So dancing around every dot and then banging them doesn't really help anyone.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The problem is that players are used to having UNLIMITEED POWAAAAAA and thus always think they could have done more.

When
games stroke your ego constantly and you destroy entire armies
single-handedly, then NOT having the option to storm a city alone feels
off to some players.

FFS, you have people in Call of Cthulu games
who seek out Cthulu to attack him. They can't win. It is suicide. It
makes no sense for their characters to even try. Yet they still do.
Because it's there and the player menatlity dictates that you kill everything.

So
when a plot point comes along and doesn't give Sheppard the option to
tear apart reapers with his bare hands, some people feel betrayed.

I see you like Spoony, nice videos he has indeed.

Modifié par Arppis, 05 novembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You post on BSN.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are a looser.

Does that include everyone who post on BSN or just me?

Yes.

[DPSSOC]

Ser Bard wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I didn't mind that being Hawke's story either, I wouldn't even mind if they did that story again, but if you're going to have a protagonist fail you need to do it right.  You have to make the player believe, when all is said and done, that there was nothing more the character could have done.  Hawke never gave me that impression.  If the player feels there's a conceivable way they could have won, or that they were winning, then they resent the developer for just not giving them that option.

MOTA is the perfect example of this, at the end Tallis leaves with the information and I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with is if we as Hawke decide 'nope that intel comes with me'  the game forces us to just stand there as she strolls off. Tallis is a rogue there are plenty of ways for her to escape e.g. Hawke draws which ever weapons, Tallis throws a smoke bomb and after it dissapates there's no sign of her only the heart.

Yeah like that.  It's fine for Tallis to get away, it is not fine for Hawke to make no attempt to stop her (unless the player chooses to just let her go).

[Face of Evil]

Didn't Hawke make piles of money on a risky expedition, avert a qunari invasion, find love, slay one of the first darkspawn and defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars, including one crazed knight-commander who wielded the power of a god?

Man, I wish I could be that much of a failure.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 novembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[Vandicus]

Face of Evil wrote...

Didn't Hawke make piles of money on a risky expedition, avert a qunari invasion, find love, slay one of the first darkspawn and defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars, including one crazed knight-commander who wielded the power of a god?

Man, I wish I could be that much of a failure.

Averting the Qunari invasion is one of the few succesfull things that Hawke can do. But that's actually difficult to achieve. Simply killing all the Qunari because of a conflict that Hawke helped start? Not sure that I'd count that in the win column.

Hawke loses his sibling as a result of the expedition.

The implication is that Hawke actually allowed that particular darkspawn to escape(though unknowningly of course).

Unless Hawke is played as a radical pro-terrorist mage or a bloodthirsty annul all the things templar, failing to stop the conflict between mages and templar before it plunged the city into chaos is unlikely to be considered a win.

And Meredith going crazy is partially Hawke's fault as well.

Hawke is however, a total badass. His life certainly has its upsides, but generally speaking, he fails at what he sets out to do.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Face of Evil wrote...

Didn't Hawke make piles of money on a risky expedition, avert a qunari invasion, find love, slay one of the first darkspawn and defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars, including one crazed knight-commander who wielded the power of a god?

Man, I wish I could be that much of a failure.

What can I say. Some people hate DA 2 so they can't see any of its good qualities. I thought Hawke was a fine protagonist.

[Foolsfolly]

Vandicus wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Didn't Hawke make piles of money on a risky expedition, avert a qunari invasion, find love, slay one of the first darkspawn and defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars, including one crazed knight-commander who wielded the power of a god?

Man, I wish I could be that much of a failure.

Averting the Qunari invasion is one of the few succesfull things that Hawke can do. But that's actually difficult to achieve. Simply killing all the Qunari because of a conflict that Hawke helped start? Not sure that I'd count that in the win column.

Hawke loses his sibling as a result of the expedition.

The implication is that Hawke actually allowed that particular darkspawn to escape(though unknowningly of course).

Unless Hawke is played as a radical pro-terrorist mage or a bloodthirsty annul all the things templar, failing to stop the conflict between mages and templar before it plunged the city into chaos is unlikely to be considered a win.

And Meredith going crazy is partially Hawke's fault as well.

Hawke is however, a total badass. His life certainly has its upsides, but generally speaking, he fails at what he sets out to do.

It also upset the power in Kirkwall allowing for Meredith to continue to grow in power and influence. Essentially she runs Kirkwall after the Viscount's death.

And the money made in the Deep Roads came at the price of a sibling, Bartrand, and all those who would die by or go insane from the lyrium idol. Which again hastens Meredith's fall into insanity and all the harm she causes to the mages in her Circle.

I mean as far as successes go those did carry some heavy negative ramifactions.