116 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteThunder]

The issue with Hawke as a protagonist was the total lack of player agency. No matter what you did, the same crap happened. DA2 had a fine story and would have been an excellent novel, however I thought that it failed as an RPG due to the lack of meaningful effects from player choice.

[Maria Caliban]

Face of Evil wrote...

Didn't Hawke make piles of money on a risky expedition...

To what end?

To help your mother get the family mansion back? Your mother dies.

To help protect your sister from Templars? Your sister is taken away.

So you can sit around enjoying the good life? There's no indication Hawke does so and Hawke never gets to retire after the madness because Cassandra says Hawke vanishes.

If you have a Hawke whose only goal is to make money, then your Hawke succeeds. If acquiring money is for some larger goal, it's all for naught.

avert a qunari invasion...

Hawke's biggest and best achievement.

find love...

Awesome, but probably not the type of heroics people have in mind.

slay one of the first darkspawn

You mean fail to slay the first darkspawn.

defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars

Right. The end of the game has you kill a large number of people who aren't evil. Hawke goes from being a hero to a mass murderer because there's no other way to resolve the conflict.

The Templars might be zealous, but they're mostly trying to protect people from mages. Even if the majority of mages are bad, the Rite of Annulment includes killing children.

[ashesandwine]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

I personally would LOVE to see a nemesis who starts off small and grows bigger to threaten you in the course of the game; it should make the story much more dramatic.

Like Gary from Pokemon? 

Maria Caliban wrote...

Right. The end of the game has you kill a large number of people who aren't evil. Hawke goes from being a hero to a mass murderer because there's no other way to resolve the conflict. 

The Templars might be zealous, but they're mostly trying to protect people from mages. Even if the majority of mages are bad, the Rite of Annulment includes killing children. 

Who cares about diplomacy when you can just slaughter anyone that gets in your way [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]. But I have to ask, which side are you on? The Templar or the mages? It seemed like you were defending The Templars at first but then you mentioned the Rite of Annulment which was invoked by Meridith, a templar??

Modifié par ashesandwine, 06 novembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[Herr Uhl]

In DA2, everyone fails. Except Sandal.

Varric: Fratricide
Bartrand: See Varric
Isabela: Caused a massacre
Merril: Caused the death of her mentor
Aveline: Widow and total failure in Kirkwall defence
Anders: Forced to martyrdom
Fenris: Set up by his own sister
Sebastian: Kablooey
Viscount: Killed
Orsino: Harvester
Meredith: Lyrium stuff
Arishok: Killed or managed to loose his captive
Elthina: Also Kablooey

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[Biotic Sage]

I already saw a plenty of the "failure-prone protagonist" when my fiancee tried to play DA:O and Mass Effect. Don't even know how many times I saw the "game over" screen and eventually she threw away the controller and said, "This is stupid, I don't know how you have fun playing these games."

[whykikyouwhy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

In DA2, everyone fails. Except Sandal.

Varric: Fratricide
Bartrand: See Varric
Isabela: Caused a massacre
Merril: Caused the death of her mentor
Aveline: Widow and total failure in Kirkwall defence
Anders: Forced to martyrdom
Fenris: Set up by his own sister
Sebastian: Kablooey
Viscount: Killed
Orsino: Harvester
Meredith: Lyrium stuff
Arishok: Killed or managed to loose his captive
Elthina: Also Kablooey

When defining failure as being unsuccessful in a goal or expectation, how does the above list constitute as having failed? Aveline losing Wesley, or Fenris being set up by his sister didn't come about due to some lack of action/effort on their part - both situations involved dire circumstances and/or the decisions of others. You may be able to say that Fenris failed to anticipate betrayal, but I don't know that we should fault characters for having a lack of prescience.

[Masha Potato]

Maybe it was Isabela's intention to cause a massacre, how do you know she faile

And Anders was certainly aiming at martyrdom so there

nbappealing goal =/= nonexistent goal

And Merrill's plan was to kill the Keeper all along, tru story

[Wulfram]

Face of Evil wrote...

defeat an army of zealous templars/desperate maleficars

The Templars win.  And since the Templars win with Hawke on the other side, it's hard to count Hawke helping them win as a significant acheivement.

[Bernhardtbr]

I still didn´t get the point of this thread. What some people actually want? That everyone can be saved? Is there a game where the protagonists always succed that isn´t dumb or exagerated? Didn´t many interesting characters in literature also fail hard often?

I think some people are too used to Hollywood movies and Deux Ex Machina crap that makes hopeless situations actually manageable (Transformers movies anyone? Autobots destroying dozens of decepticons and not losing one guy or magically ressurecting Optimus?)

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

When defining failure as being unsuccessful in a goal or expectation, how does the above list constitute as having failed? Aveline losing Wesley, or Fenris being set up by his sister didn't come about due to some lack of action/effort on their part - both situations involved dire circumstances and/or the decisions of others. You may be able to say that Fenris failed to anticipate betrayal, but I don't know that we should fault characters for having a lack of prescience.

Aveline failed in protecting Wesley, as she saw it, so I think it counts. Fenris is the one that has the least amount of failings on that list though. For him it is merely slight naivete.

[Little Princess Peach]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...you fail to save your own mum in DA2.

That's pretty fail.

Seriously, did you even play that game? Hawke fcuks up quite a bit in DA2.

human noble origin the warden can't even save one member of his/hers family during the attack and leaves her parents to die so they could go off to play hero

[vortex216]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...









In fact I don't even understand why so many people fancy the idea of super heroes like Spidermand and batman. I thought those were utterly silly and childish but it's amazing that many adults still love super hero cliche.

Those are two of the best heroes every, along with iron man and wolverine. you should be ashamed
like many people before me, yeah hawke was an average person.

[Bernhardtbr]

Yeah, if we were talking about SuperLame... Batman and Spidey were much more nuanced characters.

[Face of Evil]

Maria Caliban wrote...

To help your mother get the family mansion back? Your mother dies.

She would still have been taken by Quentin if she remained in Lowtown. At least she gained a measure of happiness before her death.

Maria Caliban wrote...

So you can sit around enjoying the good life? There's no indication Hawke does so and Hawke never gets to retire after the madness because Cassandra says Hawke vanishes.

Hawke is an adventurer, I wouldn't expect him to kick up his heels and live the good life.

Coming home to a mansion is still preferable to sleeping out in the woods or in Darktown.

Maria Caliban wrote...

You mean fail to slay the first darkspawn.

A spooky soundtrack and an odd turn of phrase is all the evidence that we have Corypheus survived. And even if he did perform some kind of body swap, his physical body was still destroyed.

It's a fairly standard horror trope to hint that the monster somehow escaped death. Until Corypheus shows up again shouting "BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA", I'll consider him permanently defeated.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Right. The end of the game has you kill a large number of people who aren't evil. Hawke goes from being a hero to a mass murderer because there's no other way to resolve the conflict.

The Templars might be zealous, but they're mostly trying to protect people from mages. Even if the majority of mages are bad, the Rite of Annulment includes killing children.

Hawke still manages to save lives, one way or another. And the threat of the lyrium idol, while indirectly Hawke's fault, is now resolved.

I'm not saying Hawke didn't fail. I'm saying that Hawke didn't only fail.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Face of Evil]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

In fact I don't even understand why so many people fancy the idea of super heroes like Spidermand and batman.

You condemn without really understanding. Part of Spider-Man's appeal is his constant underdog status and frequent failures. The universe kicks Peter Parker in the junk whenever he starts looking too happy.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Wulfram]

Face of Evil wrote...

You condemn without really understanding. Part of Spider-Man's appeal is his constant underdog status and frequent failures. The universe kicks Peter Park in the junk whenever he starts looking too happy.

Maybe Hawke should have been able to sell their relationship with their LI to Fen'Harel to save Leandra?

[wrdnshprd]

the problem i see is, with DA3 being human only. how in the world is our save imports from DA1 going to come in? to me it seems, because i picked an elf (or for the many who picked dwarf), its just going to be a few codex entries and maybe a couple of one-liners in the game. thats really where i take issue. also, what about all the relationships and everything i built up with the characters from DA1? what about my relationships with morrigan or leliana? again, seems like if they are going to be mentioned.. it wont be much more than codex entries or a couple of pieces of dialog.

so, for those that like morrigan, leliana, allistar, etc. and want to further develop the relationships we had with those characters.. we are SOL. that i think is what people are going to take issue with if we end up only being able to play human.

therefore.. it seems like this game should be a completely different storyline set in the DA universe.. which is fine if thats what its going to be. just be upfront with us, and dont give us the usual marketing spin.. which is sadly what bioware is becoming famous for. sorry it's true (just look at TOR pre-launch and ME3).

just my 2 cents.

Modifié par wrdnshprd, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Wifflebottom]

Dwarven commoner, Dalish elf, city elf are all normal and they become grey wardens because of necessity and being one of the last Ferelden Grey Wardens was more of a coincidence than it was about them being special. Hawke was a nobody until s/he became Kirkwall's champion, s/he was a poor refugee that went on a failed expedition and was basically a mercenary for the majority of the game. S/He wasn't the ONLY person able to kill the Arishok one-on-one but s/he just happened to do that. Hawke is also prone to failure: one or both of her/his sibling can die and she/he is unable to save her/his mother. Hawke has never been some gifted individual.

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Mello]

Spiderman did NOTHING to you, don't bring him up. And we do have a failure-prone protagonist, Hawke. If you really think about it Hawke isn't special she was just attacked by darkspawn and tried to save her family (No, Hawke did not save her family Flemeth did) and then tried to support her family but instead lost her family Bethany/Carver is gone and mom is dead. You wanna know what Hawke did? Got money, that's pretty much all she wanted. And she didn't help the war she had part in the war starting in the first place! She could have done something about Anders she could have stopped him. Hawke was just any other human trying to make it in life.

You want a failure prone protagonist? Meet Hawke. And why would you want your protagonist to fail? I bet you love Mass Effect 3's refusal ending. 

Modifié par iPoohCupCakes, 06 novembre 2012 - 09:42 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Wulfram wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

You condemn without really understanding. Part of Spider-Man's appeal is his constant underdog status and frequent failures. The universe kicks Peter Park in the junk whenever he starts looking too happy.

Maybe Hawke should have been able to sell their relationship with their LI to Fen'Harel to save Leandra?

It never happened.... I wish.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Vicious]

Fortlowe wrote...

As far as I could tell Hawke was just an average smuck that made the most of a series of failures. So that game already got made.

Thread ended on the first reply.



People clamored for this for a long time. They wanted to be a hero that wasn't the 'chosen one.' like EVERY other Bioware game: caution, spoilers for old games coming...


Baldur's Gate series: You are the Bhaalspawn, you got most of Bhaal's 'essence' meaning you're flat out THE most powerful of his children.

Neverwinter Nights: You are the premier graduate of some adventuring school.

KOTOR: You are Darth Revan, the Anakin Skywalker of the old republic.

Jade Empire: Chosen by the Water Dragon or something, I forget.

Mass Effect: Commander Shepard, N7 graduate, Chosen to be a Spectre, Chosen for the Lazarus Project, Chosen to unite the galaxy.

Dragon Age: You are chosen to be a Grey Warden.

And finally...

Dragon Age 2: You're not a chosen one or chosen for anything, You have no amazing foretold destiny, you're not the child of a god, You're just some guy.


Result: People hated it. Nobody really wants an ineffectual protagonist. And if they do, just replay Dragon Age 2. 

Modifié par Vicious, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:10 .

[Reznik23]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Well, that is essentially what Hawke was - he didn't save the world, far from it, and he was from a humble background. That was the setup from the beginning of the game, and carried through right to the end.

I do get what you mean about not being able to lose fights, however. The fight before the Prison Break quest in DA:O was not only possible to lose, it was very difficult to win, and the game almost expected you to lose (you only got the Prison Break quest if you lost.) More places where the protagonist could either fail or win in combat, with different outcomes for both, would be great. It would also add a little more flavour to the choice dynamic.

Yep, failure should be an option.
If you fail a mission it shouldn't necessarily just send you back to try again until you win the fight or whatever. It would be much more interesting if sometimes you try a mission or job, but if you fail; well s$%* happens - no "try again", you had your shot, now just suffer the consequences! Be that whatever it is...

[Direwolf0294]

Reznik23 wrote...

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Well, that is essentially what Hawke was - he didn't save the world, far from it, and he was from a humble background. That was the setup from the beginning of the game, and carried through right to the end.

I do get what you mean about not being able to lose fights, however. The fight before the Prison Break quest in DA:O was not only possible to lose, it was very difficult to win, and the game almost expected you to lose (you only got the Prison Break quest if you lost.) More places where the protagonist could either fail or win in combat, with different outcomes for both, would be great. It would also add a little more flavour to the choice dynamic.

Yep, failure should be an option.
If you fail a mission it shouldn't necessarily just send you back to try again until you win the fight or whatever. It would be much more interesting if sometimes you try a mission or job, but if you fail; well s$%* happens - no "try again", you had your shot, now just suffer the consequences! Be that whatever it is...

Heavy Rain was liked that and it was pretty awesome, though Heavy Rain wasn't an RPG. ME2's ending is also sort of like that.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Vicious wrote...

People clamored for this for a long time. They wanted to be a hero that wasn't the 'chosen one.' like EVERY other Bioware game: caution, spoilers for old games coming...
 

Wanting  to be a hero that wasn't the "chosen one" is not equal to wanting a failure hero. Any average person can be a hero without being a total looser. Average person doesn't has superpower like jumping 10 feet high and do all kinds of  power rangers stuns like Hawke does.

For all I concern, Hawke isn't an average person. He isn't just a refugee. He's a noble man by birth right. The Amell family is well respected in Hightown. Hawke is immune to law. He cast magic  twice in broad daylight and nobody give a damn. He kills super power villians and butcher everyone in the end. 

And yet he couldn't do anything when a handful templars drag Bethany away or kill the Ogre fast enough before it could smash Carver to death or find the series killer in time. There is no rational explanation as to why Hawke could fail.  Hawke being a looser is just for the sake of being a looser. Not because he's an average person.   And that's what ****** me greatly. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 07 novembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[WazzuMan]

Heavy Rain! Not really an RPG but you got a father, a reporter, an FBI agant, and a PI, each with the potential for epic fail, including actually dying while the other characters continued on. My favourite ending involves two of those characters failing completely. Who can guess which two.