116 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...you fail to save your own mum in DA2.

That's pretty fail.

Seriously, did you even play that game? Hawke fcuks up quite a bit in DA2.

human noble origin the warden can't even save one member of his/hers family during the attack and leaves her parents to die so they could go off to play hero

And did I say anywhere in my original post that the Human Noble Origin wasn't a failure? No? So why the hell bring it up outta the blue?

[TheRealJayDee]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People clamored for this for a long time. They wanted to be a hero that wasn't the 'chosen one.' like EVERY other Bioware game: caution, spoilers for old games coming...
 

Wanting  to be a hero that wasn't the "chosen one" is not equal to wanting a failure hero. Any average person can be a hero without being a total looser. Average person doesn't has superpower like jumping 10 feet high and do all kinds of  power rangers stuns like Hawke does.

For all I concern, Hawke isn't an average person. He isn't just a refugee. He's a noble man by birth right. The Amell family is well respected in Hightown. Hawke is immune to law. He cast magic  twice in broad daylight and nobody give a damn. He kills super power villians and butcher everyone in the end. 

And yet he couldn't do anything when a handful templars drag Bethany away or kill the Ogre fast enough before it could smash Carver to death or find the series killer in time. There is no rational explanation as to why Hawke could fail.  Hawke being a looser is just for the sake of being a looser. Not because he's an average person.   And that's what ****** me greatly. 

This is 100% the comment I wanted to write. Thanks, Sacred_Fantasy, for saving me the time!

[Sidney]

WhiteThunder wrote...

The issue with Hawke as a protagonist was the total lack of player agency. No matter what you did, the same crap happened. DA2 had a fine story and would have been an excellent novel, however I thought that it failed as an RPG due to the lack of meaningful effects from player choice.

You made choices. What didn't happen was that your choices magically saved the world. I think people misunderstand agency. Agency doesn't mean everything you do matters or more specifically that ONLY what you do matters. The problem in most worlds is that it feels like everyone else exists in a time bubble and that only when you wander near them does time begin again. DA2 for all the flaws it had made it feel like people had lives outside of my existence and those lives led to problems some of which I could solve and others I could not

[Medhia Nox]

@Sidney: The "problem" is that the story should have been done from Ander's perspective - or the game should have made it clear that you're approaching the story from a third person perspective and you're actually supporting cast to the main narrative.

[Sidney]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Sidney: The "problem" is that the story should have been done from Ander's perspective - or the game should have made it clear that you're approaching the story from a third person perspective and you're actually supporting cast to the main narrative.

Except you aren't supporting cast. The fact that you do not control the outcome of everything doesn't mean it isn't your story. Put another way if you've ever seen Paths of Glory the main character can't change the outcome. He knows it and you the viewer know it doesn't change the fact that the choices he makes and the story that is told are 100% his.

[Vicious]

The true ineffectuality of Hawke is revealed when talking to Anders in Act 3.

*justice takes over* "You will not stray Anders from his path."

Angry Hawke: "This is Anders's decision, not yours!"

justice: "i AM Anders."

Anders: "whoa that was weird, what were you just saying?"

Hawke: "Nothing. It's pretty obvious who's in charge here."
*walks away*

He.
Walked.
Away.

Every dialogue option, Hawke just walks away. Really, Bioware?

Modifié par Vicious, 07 novembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Hawke was as failure-prone as your going to get from Bioware.

[DPSSOC]

Sidney wrote...
Agency doesn't mean everything you do matters or more specifically that ONLY what you do matters.

 
No but it does mean being able to take action.  Time and again we encounter people who will obviously be problems (not just from the player perspective) that Hawke could easily do something about, but the player is denied the option and no good reason is ever given.  That is a flaw in player agency.  Sister Petrice is a good example.  She flat out tells you she intends to start a fight with the Qunari and turn Kirkwall into a battleground and we're not allowed to do anything.  As far as we know this conspiracy consists of the two people in front of us, to Hawkes mind we could stop this thing right here, but we're not allowed to do that because she says no, like we're asking for permission.

Now does killing them have to change anything?  No, absolutely not, someone else could pick up the fight with the Qunari, Petrice could be part of a grander conspiracy, or hell considering they aren't even the reason the Qunari finally start trouble (just another bunch of straws on the camel's back) there could be nothing along those lines and Act II still pans out.

Or Anders, if you think he's up to something, could just run off when you confront him and still do his thing, heck if you send him away after Ella that's what he does.  Our choices don't have to change everything, they don't even have to change anything in the grand scheme, but we need to be able to make them.  The writers don't want to me to be able to do something, fine, smack me down when I try, but let me try.

[Mello]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

...you fail to save your own mum in DA2.

That's pretty fail.

Seriously, did you even play that game? Hawke fcuks up quite a bit in DA2.

human noble origin the warden can't even save one member of his/hers family during the attack and leaves her parents to die so they could go off to play hero

And in the end she/he either becomes a queen/king or a grey warden which is one of the most respectable and honorable things anyone can be in Dragon Age. And not to mention he/she ended one of the most biggest threat to Thedas a blight... Mother of god, the Warden's story sucks. 

OH and the dog lives! 

Modifié par iPoohCupCakes, 08 novembre 2012 - 01:49 .

[Sidney]

DPSSOC wrote...
 
No but it does mean being able to take action.  Time and again we encounter people who will obviously be problems (not just from the player perspective) that Hawke could easily do something about, but the player is denied the option and no good reason is ever given.  That is a flaw in player agency.
.

You can figure out your brother is up to no good in the Noble Dwarf but can't stop it. I wanted to get kill the humans in the City Elf thing and avoid all the "they come back later" issues....can't do it. You can't stop Tamril from touching the very obviously "do not touch" thing. You can't kill Duncan to stop him from hurting Jory....the point being that there are always things you want to do in games that you aren't allowed to to do.

[Scott Sion]

I think their needs to be more moments of failure like in ME3 when Kai Leng runs off Thesia with the data needed to finish the Crucible. I also like how it showed Shepard was under a lot of preasure through his dreams.

[WhiteThunder]

Sidney wrote...

WhiteThunder wrote...

The issue with Hawke as a protagonist was the total lack of player agency. No matter what you did, the same crap happened. DA2 had a fine story and would have been an excellent novel, however I thought that it failed as an RPG due to the lack of meaningful effects from player choice.

You made choices. What didn't happen was that your choices magically saved the world. I think people misunderstand agency. Agency doesn't mean everything you do matters or more specifically that ONLY what you do matters. The problem in most worlds is that it feels like everyone else exists in a time bubble and that only when you wander near them does time begin again. DA2 for all the flaws it had made it feel like people had lives outside of my existence and those lives led to problems some of which I could solve and others I could not

What didn't happen was that your choices had any effect on the plot of the game whatsoever.  And you're right, the fact that there are some things that you cannot control does not mean that there is no agency.  The fact that there are almost no events that you can control means that there is no agency. If there are choices, there should be consequences.

And I really didn't feel that the characters other than Avelline and Anders had lives outside of my existence, either.  Fenris' house was still in shambles 8 years after I had met him.  Varric's life did not change in any way over the 10 years except when I was involved.

[DPSSOC]

Sidney wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
 
No but it does mean being able to take action.  Time and again we encounter people who will obviously be problems (not just from the player perspective) that Hawke could easily do something about, but the player is denied the option and no good reason is ever given.  That is a flaw in player agency.
.

You can figure out your brother is up to no good in the Noble Dwarf but can't stop it. I wanted to get kill the humans in the City Elf thing and avoid all the "they come back later" issues....can't do it. You can't stop Tamril from touching the very obviously "do not touch" thing. You can't kill Duncan to stop him from hurting Jory....the point being that there are always things you want to do in games that you aren't allowed to to do.

Except in most of those situations you're given reason, explicitly stated or not, as to why you can't do anything (or why your character doesn't).  DN your elder brother is nowhere to be found and your father is busy, there's no opportunity to warn either of them that your younger brother is up to no good.  If you decide not to go along with his scheme he goes through with it anyway while you're not there and frames you.  If I recall correctly you can try to attack the humans as a City Elf and they just knock you out.

They aren't always the best reasons but they're there.  DA2 gives you squat.  This person plans on starting a war we're probably not going to win, they've got one bodyguard and I'm standing between them and the door.  I can't kill them because...?  All they need to do is give me a reason why I can't do something, or why my character wouldn't and I'd be happy.  Also unlike Origins where there are a few moments in DA2 it's constant.  Thery outnumber the times you're actually given the option to take effective action.

[Bernhardtbr]

To Whitethunder: Fair enough but his point was that choices are limited because people, even heroes, are limited. Hawke´s power (and the Warden as well) wasn´t unlimited thus his choices aren´t unlimited either. He isn´t Superman and there aren´t superheroes in Thedas. Hell, Andraste was burned like a witch and guess what, nothing happened.

As for totally dumb situations where you should be able to take action because you actually have power but can´t, well, that´s just poor writing.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 08 novembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Kaosbuddy]

Sidney wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Sidney: The "problem" is that the story should have been done from Ander's perspective - or the game should have made it clear that you're approaching the story from a third person perspective and you're actually supporting cast to the main narrative.

Except you aren't supporting cast. The fact that you do not control the outcome of everything doesn't mean it isn't your story. Put another way if you've ever seen Paths of Glory the main character can't change the outcome. He knows it and you the viewer know it doesn't change the fact that the choices he makes and the story that is told are 100% his.

Controlling the outcome of something in DA2 would have been good, though. The one option that changes anything is which sibling dies first, and that's decided before the game even starts.

Setting the party to Hold, and walking up to the Ogre cut-scene. "Whoops, dead sibling... It's your fault for 'letting' them 'charge' the Ogre, even though it clearly shows them not charging at the Ogre."

Off to the Deep Roads? Time to write out the other sibling regardless of your pick, because drama.

Remember that  serial-killer mage/crazy-eyed, scheming Chantry sister/Qunari relic/evil mirror Hawke didn't bother doing anything about during a 3 year time-skip, never mind at any point onscreen? It just showed up again to bite you, because drama.

Granted, the only sane person in the city who didn't suffer from crippling indecision was the B.S artist who lives in a tavern, (Aveline almost pulled through, until her "Guards raping Elves? Meh, I'm too busy trying to repair our image to worry about something like that. It's not like the Elves will fight back and trigger a war with the Qunari..." idiocy) but a smarter character would have tried doing something during all of it.

Tragedy is fighting your hardest against a terrible situation and falling short, no matter what you did. Hawke just sits around, waiting for the next funeral notice to come in the mail and ignoring the terrible situation until it's knocking on the door for a midnight booty call. "Act surprised it happened, do nothing about the people who caused it, rinse and repeat."

[Archyyy]

What I'd want the most is the feeling that there is actually something at stake and I wont get everything without trying. The main character usually needs some kind of ace in the hole in these games to give him the reason to be the main character. I dont really mind that as long as its well explained but make it difficult to achieve the goals the game sets. It shouldnt be obvious that the pc will succeed and the possibility of utter failure should be very real. That way there is actually some reward. The blight for example progressed at the pace I decided and as the warden I never felt any danger from it. I knew all along that I will end it and things will progress at my pace and my will.

Modifié par Archyyy, 08 novembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[royceclemens]

It's been beaten into the ground, but not only was Hawke the Average Joe who failed a lot, they literally built the entire game around that concept.

The point of the framing device was to point out that Hawke was nowhere near as impressive as everyone thought he was. It was the most successful illustration of The Liberty Valance Effect outside of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Repelling a Qunari invasion aside, the only notable thing that Hawke ever did to justify all the hoopla surrounding him was be friends with a terrorist and stand near an exploding building.