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[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Maybe it wasn't Bhelen who killed Endrin, although everyone "knows" Endrin was poisoned, and Bhelen WOULD do something like that. Maybe it was Loghain. Think about it. Why would Endrin die at the same time Arl Eamon was poisoned, AND the Couslands are murdered? Easy. Atleast on a meta-game level- if he HADN'T dies, a fifth of the pre-climax would be done for you- "Hey King Endrin, there's a Blight on the surface and we need dwarven assistance. Same for the Circle, Logain HAD do destabilize the mages for the same reason, leaving you 2/5s of the pre-Landsmeet questlines done . In game, I think his logic is to destabliize and group powerful (dwarves and mages) or popular (Eamon and Couslands) enough for him to launch an anti-coup. The fact that the "powerful" groups are neutral as far as internal politics goes are irrelevant. Although there's one group he didn't destabilize, and probably the greatest threat- the Chantry. It answers to the Grand Cleric in Orlais, so it's (atleast in his twisted and sick mind) an Orlaisan threat. Why he didn't target that is beyond me.

[Monica21]

Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing Loghain was involved in is Eamon's poisoning (which was never meant to kill him) and allying himself with Uldred. It's been pretty clearly stated by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever. If Loghain has nothing to gain by poisoning Endrin, then why do it? And he didn't. The dwarves are insular. He has nothing to gain by letting the dwarves fight it out inside a mountain, because they're not coming out to help humans anyway, not while they have their own problems.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Monica21 wrote...

Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing Loghain was involved in is Eamon's poisoning (which was never meant to kill him) and allying himself with Uldred. It's been pretty clearly stated by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever. If Loghain has nothing to gain by poisoning Endrin, then why do it? And he didn't. The dwarves are insular. He has nothing to gain by letting the dwarves fight it out inside a mountain, because they're not coming out to help humans anyway, not while they have their own problems.

So it's just coidence that Arl Howe takes out Logain's greatest threat to his rule (the Couslands) right when he launches a coup? And then promotes Howe to Teyrn of Highever (among other titles). And as far as him having nothing to gain by interferring with dwarven politics, he also had nothing to gain (or lose) by interfering with the mages, yet he did anyway.

[Monica21]

Again, Gaider said Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever. Loghain allied himself with Howe after Ostagar, not before.

So, yeah. It is coincidence.

Modifié par Monica21, 05 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Whenever the theory of poisoning Endrin came up in her stories, Sarah1281 had her DN state that Bhelen couldn't have, since Endrin kept him away, (Edit: And I'm pretty sure Nerav says that Endrin sent him away in-game, though she does seem to think Bhelen could still have poisoned him somehow.) but that Harrowmont might have. At one point, she also had Bhelen state "There's no way Harrowmont could have come up with that, but I'm not sure I'd put it past Father..."

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 05 novembre 2012 - 01:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing Loghain was involved in is Eamon's poisoning (which was never meant to kill him) and allying himself with Uldred. It's been pretty clearly stated by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever. If Loghain has nothing to gain by poisoning Endrin, then why do it? And he didn't. The dwarves are insular. He has nothing to gain by letting the dwarves fight it out inside a mountain, because they're not coming out to help humans anyway, not while they have their own problems.

So it's just coidence that Arl Howe takes out Logain's greatest threat to his rule (the Couslands) right when he launches a coup? And then promotes Howe to Teyrn of Highever (among other titles). And as far as him having nothing to gain by interferring with dwarven politics, he also had nothing to gain (or lose) by interfering with the mages, yet he did anyway.

He had nothing to gain by the Circle of Magi owing him big?

[TEWR]

Endrin died of grief, though the fact that a kingkiller poison was imported to Orzammar tells me that Bhelen was planning on poisoning his father -- that poison ended up being given to a different noble by mistake.

And as far as him having nothing to gain by interferring with dwarven politics, he also had nothing to gain (or lose) by interfering with the mages, yet he did anyway.

There's a big difference between the two. For the Mages, he was interfering for mutual benefit. If he had a hand in poisoning Endrin -- which as we're told in-game isn't the case, as Endrin died simply of grief and a broken heart -- he'd be interfering for no gain whatsoever.

He'd be making things worse for both sides. The Dwarves would be locked in a succession crisis and would refuse to help the humans until they had a King.

So no, Loghain had no part in Endrin's death.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Faerunner wrote...

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The only thing Loghain was involved in is Eamon's poisoning (which was never meant to kill him) and allying himself with Uldred. It's been pretty clearly stated by Gaider that Loghain had nothing to do with the attack on Highever. If Loghain has nothing to gain by poisoning Endrin, then why do it? And he didn't. The dwarves are insular. He has nothing to gain by letting the dwarves fight it out inside a mountain, because they're not coming out to help humans anyway, not while they have their own problems.

So it's just coidence that Arl Howe takes out Logain's greatest threat to his rule (the Couslands) right when he launches a coup? And then promotes Howe to Teyrn of Highever (among other titles). And as far as him having nothing to gain by interferring with dwarven politics, he also had nothing to gain (or lose) by interfering with the mages, yet he did anyway.

"Greatest threat to his rule"? I think you're giving the Couslands way too much credit. All the nobles were loyal to the king (theoretically), yet Loghain didn't bother trying to cripple any of them beforehand. He just called the Landsmeet right after Ostagar and genuinely expected everyone to shuffle into line, and then acted surprised and outraged when they didn't.

The reasons Loghain believed Eamon to be a threat beforehand, and dealt with him accordingly, were because a) Eamon was Cailan's uncle, Eamon had encouraged Cailan to divorce Anora for the Empress of Orlais (which fuelled Loghain's Orlaisian paranoia), and c) Eamon was influential at the Landsmeet. Loghain knew Eamon would rally others against him based on his personal connection to the King and the Orlaisian intrigue. (Too bad he didn't factor in Teagan.) The Couslands were just more nobles at the Landsmeet that Loghain would have expected to fall in line like everyone else. (Mr. "And I expect each of you to supply these men...")

Hell, when you think about it, the Couslands were summoned to fight at Ostagar. If you believe Loghain pre-planned to abandon the King's army, then he could have just let the darkspawn handle the Couslands rather than bother with the liability of the traitor/mass murderer Howe. If you don't believe Loghain intended to quit the field till the last second, then he could have used both the Couslands' and Howes' private armies at Ostagar, rather than having the former slaughtered by the latter while most other nobles (sans Eamon, apparently) were contributing. Either way, it would have been counter-productive to get them slaughtered beforehand instead of using their help or disposing of them at Ostagar. 

EDIT: I think Loghain promoted Howe because of some weird symbiosis. Most nobles were (rightly, if you ask me) put off by Loghain's withdrawl from Ostagar, so he was short on allies. Howe was a power-hungry social-climber out for all he could get and smelled opportunity in allying with Loghain. Howe offered his services as a bully--I mean, "political mind" to help Loghain deal with the unruly nobles while Loghain rewarded his assistence with the lands and titles he desired. It was a match made in hell.

Also, Loghain would have had a lot to gain by having the mages as his allies. He didn't deliberately try to mess them up, he promised them more freedoms in exchange for their support. Granted, this didn't work out, but it would have been mutually beneficial for both parties. What would he have to gain from screwing over an isolated, underground, neighboring kingdom? Especially one he later called on for help? Absolutely nothing.

First, the Couslands were MAJOR Royalists (from what I've read elsewhere, and it maybe wrong), The Couslands were offered the throne OVER Cailen, they refused for the same reason Eamon advocated Alistair's claim... they aren't Calenhad blood. They would have been an even greater threat than Eamon, because like Eamon, they are popular, but unke Eamon, they are the same rank as Loghain, therefore if the Couslands and Eamon joined forces, then it would have been an even greater threat (the Bannorn, Redcliffe, AND Highever, ALL united against Loghain? Major problem). And as far as letting the Darkspawn take care of the Couslands at Ostagar, you're forgeting not all of the Couslands WENT to Ostagar (your character if you're a Human Noble, for example), so Howe was needed to get rid of the Couslands that remained in Highever.

I've finally figured out why Loghain supported the Circle's rebellion (and why he provided no support). He didn't give a damn about the mages, he just wanted to get rid of the Templars, because in his mind, since the Grand Cathedral was in Orlais, all Templars everywhere must be loyal to Orlais. Getting rid of or weakening the Templars would allow him to consolidate power and remove a potential "fifth column" before Orlais could respond.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

David Gaider may have said that, but then it's just an amazing coindence that Arl Howe took out Loghain's greatest threat (sure, they were massively weakened by Ostagar, but not completely elimated)  and then is promoted to being the most powerful person behind Loghain and Anora? I'd also like to point out that Bryce would have taken the BULK of his army (leaving not only a skeleton sucurity force, but also his vassal armies behind). To make sure that didn't come and bite Loghain in the ass, Howe took out what was left of the Couslands. Not only that, if the army of Highever WAS at Ostagar, it actually might have tipped the balance, which is another reason why Loghain had Howe take out the Couslands. If you watch the Battle of Ostagar cutscene where Loghain retreats (after Cailen dies and as a Hurlock kills Ducan), there are like a dozen (at most) Hurlocks left after the battle. There's only one person who wasn't a Loghain bootlicker who said Ostagar couldn't have been won even if Loghain hadn't betrayed the king (and it's Cailen's guard in the Return to Ostagar DLC).

As far as not taking out Teegan as well, Loghain was overextended at that point, and how would he take him out? Howe was busy taking out the Couslands, therefor in no position to take out Teegan, he only had one apostate mage (Jowan) To take out Eamon, ane he had to be at Ostagar to make sure Cailen was killed there. That, and the fact Teegan not only rarely took part in the Landsmeet, but also JUST a Bann (as opposed to a more powerful/influencial Arl or Teyrn), Loghain might have overlooked him as a threat, especially since he took out Teegan's major backer Eamon.

I'm just pointing out that it's like a puzzle, with peices all over the place, and they fit, even if they aren't intended to fit. As Cailen points out, as soon as he wins at Ostagar, he's taking his army north to take out that treacherous snake Howe, and Howe HAD to have known that. It only makes sense if you make it case of Loghain planning in advance with Howe to take out the Couslands...

For the Circle part, the fact that Loghain accuses your character of being an Orlsain supporter at the Landsmeet, no matter what. (although I've only player through as a human noble and a mage...) Dalish Elf who hates all humans? Orlsain supporter. Casteless Dwarf who never considered moving the the surface? Orlsain supporter. Mage who never left the Tower since arriving? Orlsain supporter. So it's no surprise that opposing the Templars because their big boss is in Orlais are Orlsian supporters. That, and that explains WHY he encouraged a Circle revolt then didn't help at all... it might not be in game, but what other reason would the Orlsain-hating Loghain encourage a Circle revolt and then not provide any support? And given the fact the Circle is pretty isolated, he might have thought "hey, the mages are also Orlsian, so I'm going to encourage them both to kill each other (sort of like how we felt during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq at the time was a Soviet puppet, and we didn't like the Iranians because of the hostage crisis a couple of years earlier)...

Modifié par G_Admiral_Thrawn, 11 novembre 2012 - 08:00 .