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[sAxMoNkI]

Greylycantrope wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Ironically enough many of them have planets named after them in the Mass Effect universe (Franklin included). You'd think that Seival being the all knowing prophet he/she is would have at least browsed their works.

FYI I recommend Watson and Crick's research Seival. Particularly good reads.

Watson and Crick are responsible for our understanding of DNA structure, shame about how they obtained their data though.

Oh I completely agree, Franklin was treated appallingly and deserves far more recognition and acclaim. As does Tesla come to think of it.

[Dr_Extrem]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
...
Deus Ex: Human Revolution *worked* because *the entire game* was about the themes of the ending. It led you to consider the different points of view, the different possibilities *well before* you had to make the choice.

It doesn't matter how much thought Mac and Casey put into the endings. They *failed* to tie the endings into the rest of the games *narrative*. Mass Effect was never about Synthetics vs. Organics; that was a subtheme.

I am requoting this post because it is a good post and I like it.

I don't see how Mass Effect was never about Synthetics vs Organics.  Or even more, how the entire trilogy was not about control, synthesis and destroying the Reapers.  That's EXACTLY what it was about.

It's pointless to have this discussion in this thread, but tbh the quoted post is a bizarre thing to support.

Lets see...

For Control, we have the Illusive Man and Cerberus going on about it in the third game, but all we did was fight against that idea. It wasn't always about control, and its pressence is minor at best. Pretty sh*tty support for one of the apparent three pillars of the game. 

For Synthesis, Saren kind of said something similar to it that one time before he dies, but then it's forgotten about for the rest of the game. 

For destoy, I guess that was pretty much just the third game, but then the third game is all about destorying them. Stopping them was more correct, but stopping them never involved cooperation, or anything like control or synthesis. 

Organics versus Synthetics was part of the Geth and Quarian relationship, never the main conflict, never said to be a galaxy defining problem, unsolvable, or the cause of organic extinction. 

stopping the reapers was always the goal .. since we hit the beacon.

the implication that synthesis could work, poped up again in the third game - the dialogue with tali about geth and suits.

the idea of control was fought throughout the whole series. sheoard called anyone who thought they could control the reapers mad/indoctrinated. the sudden change of mind came up during the catalyst dialogue. while shepard might admire that cerberus "got its job done" he/she still rejects its standing.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Redbelle wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Redbelle wrote...
Whose Davik Kang?

A deeply wise man, who lived a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

Bumped into a guy called Revan once, who wanted to join the crew.  He didn't seem like all that really.

Wasn't going by Revan when he met Davik, he was going by Manly McBeefington in my case.

I would also like to buy a beer for Manly McBeefington. Do they ever reunite some time?

Sadly, Davik had an unforunate accident involving blasters, a viroblade and a building collapsing on him. Was kind enough to give Manly his ship though

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

Of course Synthesis will not stop all conflicts. It will only stop the most deadly and pointless ones. The ones based on "Alien" word. "Alien" not it terms of different points of view, but in terms of complete difference and hostility on physiological and subconscious level.

Even if your rambling nonsense was true, the galaxy would eventually come into contact with other, "alien", galaxies.

And that would be just another brilliant story

I'm guessing it ends in synthesis.

Milky Way Galaxy: You will take our gift or else...

Different galaxy: Or what ?

Milky Way Galaxy: rEApers ???

[Peranor]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

anorling wrote...


Seival. Just bow out of this debate. At least have the decency to admit when you have lost, when you have been outsmarted.

Just face it, drayfish and many others called your BS. People are just laughing at your ignorant passive agressive posts at this point.

Since I start following Seival´s crusade I am doing nothing else then good laugh, he is simply genius of entertaiment...

Either that or he is the most successful troll in the history of BSN. Or my suspicions were correct and he is just borderline insane... 

[Davik Kang]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Lets see...

For Control, we have the Illusive Man and Cerberus going on about it in the third game, but all we did was fight against that idea. It wasn't always about control, and its pressence is minor at best. Pretty sh*tty support for one of the apparent three pillars of the game. 

For Synthesis, Saren kind of said something similar to it that one time before he dies, but then it's forgotten about for the rest of the game. 

For destoy, I guess that was pretty much just the third game, but then the third game is all about destorying them. Stopping them was more correct, but stopping them never involved cooperation, or anything like control or synthesis. 

Organics versus Synthetics was part of the Geth and Quarian relationship, never the main conflict, never said to be a galaxy defining problem, unsolvable, or the cause of organic extinction. 

I'll take it that you're being serious?  Seriously serious?

Control is something that wasn't alluded to?  

OF COURSE we fight against it the whole game.  THAT'S THE POINT.  YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO THINK "hmm, where have I heard this before?"  AND THEN THINK "is this a good idea?"  IT'S BEEN SMASHED IN YOUR FACE FOR THE WHOLE OF ME2 AND ME3.  USING YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAPONS AGAINST THEM.  USING THE TECHNOLOGY LEFT BY THE PROTHEANS AND THE REAPERS.  IS THIS A GOOD IDEA?

Saren said something similar to Synthesis?  DID YOU MISS THE REPEATED CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LIFE ASCENDING TO A PEAK OF EVOLUTION?  SPIECES BEING UPLIFTED AND BEING UNABLE TO HANDLE IT BECUASE THEY WEREN'T READY?  LEGION TALKING ABOUT REACHING A FINAL STATE OF EVOLUTION WHERE THEY WERE ALL CONNECTED TO A CENTRAL FRAMEWORK?  HARBINGER AND SOVERIEGN BANGING ON ABOUT THE INEVITABILITY OF GENETIC DESTINY AND BEING THE HARBINGER OF OUR PERFECTION?

Oh, Destroying them didn't involve cooperating?  OH REALLY?  ARE YOU SURE?  HOLY CRAP.  I THOUGHT THEY ALWAYS WANTED US TO WIPE THEM OUT.  YOU MAKE IT SOUND AS IF DESTROY IS SOMEHOW OPPOSED TO SYNTHESIS AND CONTROL.

Did you just smash the buttons every time a character started talking?  WERE WE EVEN PLAYING THE SAME GAME?

Modifié par Davik Kang, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

The whole Krogan arc was a perfect example of how artificial temporary solutions ruin themselves eventually. The "synthetics on our side" arc was the perfect example of how the exception to the rule approves the rule. Any peace between too different entities can remain only temporary...

...Those arcs fit the story and its ending just perfectly. You just failed to see the whole picture.

How does that arc show that artifical temporary solutions ruin themselves? You can win with or without curing the genophage. Each is a valid option, it proves nothing.
 Peace remains temporary even in synthesis and control and especially destroy. You have not attained utopia.

You can win without curing the Genophage, but Krogan can't. Genophage was developed to bring peace to the Galaxy, but it brought only doom upon one particular race: the Krogan. But before that Krogan were uplifted, used and then abandoned like annoying beasts.

Rachni were alien to everyone, were used and abandoned. Krogan were alien to everyone, were used and abandoned. Geth are alien to everyone... they were used and will be abandoned.

Alien is the key word here. Synthesis destroyes the very meaning of the word. While all other endings just provide some delay for Synthesis.

...I hope the whole picture started to appear in your head?

For all their faults, the Krogan are not beasts. They are intelligent and scared for their species, not that they would admit it being macho types. The Krogan do however have one thing going for them. They have had a chance to live through the Genophage and as a result, they have been exposed to new cultures and new ideas. The worry that brought about the genophage was that Krogan population's would increase so exponentially that Krogan culture and populations would come into conflict with others. However, Krogan have been seen trying to romance Asari. They have journeyed across space and met many new people and been exposed to many new idea's. With the right leadership krogan culture can recover using idea's from other worlds, thereby building bridges and making the Krogan see other races as potential friends. Not Varren food.

Everybody is someone elses alien. You have forgotten that the Asari, Turans, Salarians, Humans are all alien to one another yet they did not use each other and abandon them. Krogan were chosen because they are physically more able to withstand the rigours of conflict and are a race taht can replenish itself fast leading to no shortage of future soldier's. When the war was over this force suddenly had no obvious enemy and the council, of then aliens, feared that what it had created could turn on them.

Geth just get a bad rep for nearly kiling all the Quarians and being AI. Turns out the whole thing was a misunderstanding that got lost in Quarian history. Had the geth chimed in with their two cents to the council we probably would have looked on the Geth differently in ME1 other than easily disposable mooks.

To be Alien is to be unknown. And human nature compells us to explore the unknown to the point that what was once alien becomes familier. That we may not get it right each time is true. But it is also true that we can learn from our mistakes and do better the next time.

To be Alien is to be very different, even in case of "very well known". That's the point. Asari, Turians and Salarians are not Aliens to each other, their societies and inborn ways of thinking/communicating are very similar. Krogan were completely out of that picture, and still are. Just like in case of Rachni for Protheans and current Galactic Civilization. Geth are even more out of picture, because they are synthetics with artificial intelligence, which works differently than any organic intelligence...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences. Your physiology and environment shapes you. When everyone embrace the same physiology and environment, they stop being Aliens to each other. They become merged. Recognize Synthesis?

Of course people will still have conflicts in the future. But those conflicts will not be too deadly. There will be no need to preserve the old life in form of the Reapers, and give the new life time to repeat the history.

Modifié par Seival, 06 novembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

sAxMoNkI wrote...
Oh I completely agree, Franklin was treated appallingly and deserves far more recognition and acclaim. As does Tesla come to think of it.

My brother-in-law's an electrical engineer. He champions Tesla as much as I do Franklin, so I guess they always get credit due in the end.

[Davik Kang]

Greylycantrope wrote...
Sadly, Davik had an unforunate accident involving blasters, a viroblade and a building collapsing on him. Was kind enough to give Manly his ship though

And I'll get it back, you hear?  *Shakes fist*

[GreyLycanTrope]

Davik Kang wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Sadly, Davik had an unforunate accident involving blasters, a viroblade and a building collapsing on him. Was kind enough to give Manly his ship though

And I'll get it back, you hear?  *Shakes fist*

Well you see you Manly had this other friend. She was a bit of social outcast. Loaned her the ship, not sure where she left it.

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

[roryw2203]

I find it odd when people praise the 'genius' ME3's ending, when it wasn't even the first choice ending for Bioware either......

[Davik Kang]

Greylycantrope wrote...
Well you see you Manly had this other friend. She was a bit of social outcast. Loaned her the ship, not sure where she left it.

She?  I think you mean he, that interpid warrior-hero who struck down his mysterous master after she revealed her true nature...

Unless you mean that other girl who went on a murderous rampage and became so legendary she even had a Twi'lek slave take her name in honour...

(I did 5 playthroughs btw and could go on and on... will leave it there, for my sanity more than anything else...)

[Applepie_Svk]

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

This starts looking disgusting... there was especially one bloody conflict in human history which become most disgusting by its reputation because of this issue...

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Seival wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

The whole Krogan arc was a perfect example of how artificial temporary solutions ruin themselves eventually. The "synthetics on our side" arc was the perfect example of how the exception to the rule approves the rule. Any peace between too different entities can remain only temporary...

...Those arcs fit the story and its ending just perfectly. You just failed to see the whole picture.

How does that arc show that artifical temporary solutions ruin themselves? You can win with or without curing the genophage. Each is a valid option, it proves nothing.
 Peace remains temporary even in synthesis and control and especially destroy. You have not attained utopia.

You can win without curing the Genophage, but Krogan can't. Genophage was developed to bring peace to the Galaxy, but it brought only doom upon one particular race: the Krogan. But before that Krogan were uplifted, used and then abandoned like annoying beasts.

Rachni were alien to everyone, were used and abandoned. Krogan were alien to everyone, were used and abandoned. Geth are alien to everyone... they were used and will be abandoned.

Alien is the key word here. Synthesis destroyes the very meaning of the word. While all other endings just provide some delay for Synthesis.

...I hope the whole picture started to appear in your head?

For all their faults, the Krogan are not beasts. They are intelligent and scared for their species, not that they would admit it being macho types. The Krogan do however have one thing going for them. They have had a chance to live through the Genophage and as a result, they have been exposed to new cultures and new ideas. The worry that brought about the genophage was that Krogan population's would increase so exponentially that Krogan culture and populations would come into conflict with others. However, Krogan have been seen trying to romance Asari. They have journeyed across space and met many new people and been exposed to many new idea's. With the right leadership krogan culture can recover using idea's from other worlds, thereby building bridges and making the Krogan see other races as potential friends. Not Varren food.

Everybody is someone elses alien. You have forgotten that the Asari, Turans, Salarians, Humans are all alien to one another yet they did not use each other and abandon them. Krogan were chosen because they are physically more able to withstand the rigours of conflict and are a race taht can replenish itself fast leading to no shortage of future soldier's. When the war was over this force suddenly had no obvious enemy and the council, of then aliens, feared that what it had created could turn on them.

Geth just get a bad rep for nearly kiling all the Quarians and being AI. Turns out the whole thing was a misunderstanding that got lost in Quarian history. Had the geth chimed in with their two cents to the council we probably would have looked on the Geth differently in ME1 other than easily disposable mooks.

To be Alien is to be unknown. And human nature compells us to explore the unknown to the point that what was once alien becomes familier. That we may not get it right each time is true. But it is also true that we can learn from our mistakes and do better the next time.

To be Alien is to be very different, even in case of "very well known". That's the point. Asari, Turians and Salarians are not Aliens to each other, their societies and inborn ways of thinking/communicating are very similar. Krogan were completely out of that picture, and still are. Just like in case of Rachni for Protheans and current Galactic Civilization. Geth are even more out of picture, because they are synthetics with artificial intelligence, which works differently than any organic intelligence...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences. Your physiology and environment shapes you. When everyone embrace the same physiology and environment, they stop being Aliens to each other. They become merged. Recognize Synthesis?

Of course people will still have conflicts in the future. But those conflict will not be too deadly. There will be no need to preserve the old life in form of the Reapers, and give the new life time to repeat the history.

The asari, Turian's and Salarian's are aliens to each other. That's the point. Every race is an alien and only thorugh understanding can you bridge the divides. If both races turn up and seek out similarities then great. If one race does that while the other is gnawing your leg off it does create a bit of tension.

Regardless, alien is alien in form. But elements of an alien's alien.....ness, can be comprehended. Thus making what was once unknown, known

The Krogan however represent a different form of understanding. The other races saw waht they could do and were afraid. Not that they WOULD conquer the galaxy, but that they COULD conquer it. And it would be mostly the councils fault for teaching the Krogan how to fight. The genophage was an expression of that fear. But also an attempt by the controlling political forces to cover up what they saw as a mistake on their part.

Had the Krogan not the birthing capacity, or the aggresive tendacies, they might have been spared the genophage. But it was because they did have high birth rates and a warrior culture that they were chosen to fight Rachni.

Modifié par Redbelle, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[Redbelle]

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

If I were to use the word remove I'd say it like this.

To stop being alien is to remove our fear of what we percieve to be dangerous differences.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

Given what synthesis represents I'm not suprised by that conclusion, to be honest. Someone embracing that conclusion however...problematic.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[ShepnTali]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

Given what synthesis represents I'm not suprised by that conclusion, to be honest. Someone embracing that conclusion however...problematic.

Especially if voting age. Problematic indeed.

[Redbelle]

Let's not forget that if, as Seiv say's Asari, Turian, and Salarian alien cultures are so similar that they just got along............

Why did the Turians fight the humans? Why didn't the Asari and Salarians join in as they are supposed to be like the Turians? Anbd why was the fighting halted and humans elevated to a position in the minds of the council above Krogan and Rachni?........

In that they didn't genophage or plan to exterminate the humans?

The answer, put simply.............. A misunderstanding of intent led to the war. A clarification ended it. A lack of fear by both parties allowed them to develop ties that bond.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Seival, I know it's a 2nd-language thing but you do need to be careful about the way you phrase things in general.  This is another "Final Solution" moment...

I doubt you actually intend the implications of some of the things you say, but you would do well to make your position very clear on things like facism and eugenics before you continue.  Am being serious btw.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Suspire]

Davik Kang wrote...

Suspire wrote...
If for some reason you wanna pretend all the BW interviews, all the info we have and all the info that exists on game development is all a big lie and they did plan it from the start, that would make it worse as the games have more inconsistancies than my grandma's skin. So fail anyway.

What other 99%? Cause from what I know, ME1>ME2>ME3 in order of quality and popularity (debatable for ME2, but it was then that the FPS crowd started liking BW, and even though I like the game, it's not for it's story). 
Like it's any secret that BW games have been getting worse with each release lol.

Edit: and about your last question, we have a number of things to blame for the abysmal drop in writing quality of the endings (even if the rest wasn't flawless writing, cause it really wasn't), pure bad decision making combined with rushed deadline, old team leaving the staff, over ambition and swollen egos, being more and more out of touch with your fans, wanting to do something "different" (er, just not different from Deus Ex and the Matrix) just for the sake of being edgy and cool etc. 

The guy who wrote ME1 wasn't even in ME3 at all, lol.

So.... in other words, yes, you do think that writers write their stories in the ordert that the audience perceives them.  Tops off the whole confused aspect of your entire post.

In other words, you don't understand or want to talk about any of the points I brought up, so you just ignore it and pretend I didn't say anything. It's okay, I like to pretend chocolate doesn't make you fat either. Or that you know how game development works.

Modifié par Suspire, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:21 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'd also like to know how one defines a difference as "dangerous". All differences are potentially dangerous as I see it, they create division, division can create mistrust so on and so forth. So how would one even decide what is and isn't dangerous? Who has the right to decide that?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[Seival]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Seival wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

... DNA is a rule? A RULE? Did you even pass biochemistry 101? Did you even *attend* biochemistry 101?

Of cource it is. You don't have to be a scientist to know that.

Such scientific terms describe the mechanics of some particular processes, not "createting a picture of microscopical fraction".

This post hurt my biology

I assume you see DNA as just "an acid which stores genetic information"? Just like you see Reapers as Spaceship Armada hostile to Galactic Civilization... And don't even realize that they both are "rules". The first describes how "genetic information storage" works, and the second - how Catalyst's solution works...

...You don't see the meaning of the things, so how can you probably like or dislike story you don't actually understand?

*Speechless at the lunacy*

You realise that *what* something is, *how* it functions and *why* it performs its functions are completely separate concepts right?

You realize that "how it functions?" and "why it performs its functions?" are much more important questions than "what it is?". "How" and "why" are "rules". "What" - is a "picture". You never judge something by "picture", you only judge something by "why" and "how". "Pictures" are only a titles which you use to categorise your knowledge.

[Redbelle]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I'd also like to know how one defines a difference as "dangerous". All differences are potentially dangerous as I see it, they create division, division can create mistrust so on and so forth. So how would one even decide what is and isn't dangerous? Who has the right to decide that?

Presumably the first contact guy. Who, with any luck, will have been schooled in that way of thinking so as to know that he cannot simply allow first impressions to sour a future relationship till they get over the hump of not understanding one another.

Star Trek does it. Maybe we could ask Kirk......... No wait, Picard. Defintely Picard.

Kirk would ninja chop the guys and steal all their women.

[GreyLycanTrope]

While I disapprove of Kirks methods, I approve of his appreciation of multicolored women.