889 réponses à ce sujet

[StarcloudSWG]

I suspect that Seival's unfamiliarity with English, and more specifically American cultural concepts, has caused him to drastically misread what Harry Harrison was writing, and misinterpret the message he was trying to convey.

And, more specifically for Seival, have you forgotten Mordin's speech in ME 2? It's a fundamental truth, not a theory, not an abstract concept: Limitations drive evolution and progress. Limitations drive culture. Limitations drive technological progress. Limitations drive the imaginative works of fiction, of video games, of art. Take away those limitations, as Synthesis purports to do... and the only thing you 'achieve' is stagnation.

The Reapers are and always will be a dead end. So will 'removing differences' through synthesis.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[BearlyHere]

IReuven wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Humanity is evil! Diversity is evil! Life is evil!
I'm going now.

So... Reapers are good :happy: I need some strong stuff, probably going to stole some alcohole...

It feels sort of like Seven of Nine drunk: "WITH THE BORG WE ASSIMILATED HUNDREDS OF PLANTETS... SAY WHATEVER YOU WISH ABOUT THE BORG BUT... WE DO TRAVEL!" 

Alcohole... yeah... and then let's just let Conrad Verner take care of everything. Strong stuff will work   

Conrad Verner pulling Shep out of the rubble is my headcanon ending. 

[drayfish]

Seival wrote...

To be Alien is to be very different, even in case of "very well known". That's the point. Asari, Turians and Salarians are not Aliens to each other, their societies and inborn ways of thinking/communicating are very similar. Krogan were completely out of that picture, and still are. Just like in case of Rachni for Protheans and current Galactic Civilization. Geth are even more out of picture, because they are synthetics with artificial intelligence, which works differently than any organic intelligence...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences. Your physiology and environment shapes you. When everyone embrace the same physiology and environment, they stop being Aliens to each other. They become merged. Recognize Synthesis?

Of course people will still have conflicts in the future. But those conflicts will not be too deadly. There will be no need to preserve the old life in form of the Reapers, and give the new life time to repeat the history.

DING DING DING!!!

Yay!  Seival wins the 'Not Understanding Why What I Just Said Was Horrifying Intolerant Racist Nonsense' Award!

Seival, everything that you are saying right now is (if you actually mean it) terrifying - particularly given your previous discussions of forced synthesis camps.  This thread has fairly swiftly moved from incoherent misreading of a sci-fi legend, to an advocation of genetic and ideological eugenics.

You need to stop.

Aside from embarassing yourself, I am sure that when you actually take the time to let your head clear and consider what it is that you have just said, you will be as disturbed by the ugly implications as many here already are...

And I can - with extreme certainty - say that Harry Harrison would be ashamed of you, and mortified that his fiction was being misused in your argument.

(Also: thanks, Bioware, for allowing such marvelous opinions to be validated by your opus.  Way to shoot for the own goal.)

Modifié par drayfish, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:49 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

The inconvenient truth of the ending's implications.

[Zan51]

Just a couple of things about Harry Harrison that you might not know and might enjoy.

His novel Make Room! Make Room! (1966) was the rough basis for the motion picture Soylent Green (1973).
Soylent Green was an uncompromising view of a world a quarter of a century into the future, in which massive overpopulation has created a critical food shortage. The solution is an alleged soya/lentil substitute – the plot concerns the discovery of the true nature of the stuff. Soylent Green, the main food of that time, was reconstituted people!
During the 1950s and 1960s, he was the main writer of the Flash Gordon newspaper strip. (Wow! I loved the early Flash Gordon series!)

"His most popular and best-known work is contained in fast-moving parodies, homages or even straight reconstructions of traditional space-opera adventures. He wrote several named series of these: notably the Deathworld series (three titles, starting in 1960), the Stainless Steel Rat books (12 titles, from 1961), and the sequence of books about Bill, the Galactic Hero (seven titles, from 1965). These books all present interesting contradictions: while being exactly what they might superficially seem to be, unpretentious action novels with a strong streak of humour, they are also satirical, knowing, subversive, unapologetically anti-military, anti-authority and anti-violence. Harrison wrote such novels in the idiom of the politically conservative hack writer, but in reality he had a liberal conscience and a sharp awareness of the lack of literary values in so much of the SF he was parodying." Form British SF writer Chris Priest's Obituary in The Guardian.

Beware of assuming that writers conform to your view of them. This is by his contemporaries who knew him best. I doubt very much if he would have approved at all with either synthesis or control.

I met him a couple of times, at my very first Science Fiction Convention in 1978 in Coventry, England. The convention had brought this new device into the main con bar and we were all clustered round it, speculating on the future it could have, its impact on our culture. What was it? The first coin operated Video Game machine  - Pac Man! Ironic in view of this conversation, yes?

Modifié par Zan51, 07 novembre 2012 - 08:28 .

[Necrotron]

BD Manchild wrote...

Oh my dear sweet lord, there is so much ignorance and tripe in the OP that it can only be produced by a massive blowhard. You're basically going out of your way to insult everyone who disliked the endings, aren't you?

Actually, the EC came about because of the exact same assumptions made in this thread; that the audience was simply too thick to "understand" the ending. We understood it, alright, and it didn't need explaining; it needed to not be a load of tripe that somehow managed to derail the story of the entire series in ten minutes. Your analogies don't work because, in epic sci-fi stories, there is still foreshadowing for these kinds of endings and they feel like a natural conclusion to what's come before. ME3's ending doesn't; it's an attempt to be "deep" and "meaningful" (even though it's really utterly simplistic and flat-out nonsensical) at the cost of being thematically and narratively consistent with the rest of the series. It is just a bad, bad ending, and frankly thinking any writer of sci-fi would approve is a huge, huge assumption.

Finally some reason in this thread.

[Seival]

Sion1138 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Evolution proved only that someone always becomes superior eventually. Making everyone superior and merged will only increase the speed of evolution process, and make it much less painful for many people, beasts, and plants.

While your prior statements hold fundamental truth, though not if the discourse is limited to physical reality, this one does not.

The reality you are in at this moment is dependant on pain, suffering and death. Evolution runs in part on these very things. Their existence, giving the general impetus to avoid them, giving rise to adaptation, giving rise to growth.

One of the most run down colloquial phrases describes to an appreciable degree the truth of experience:

"Life sucks, and then you die."

Early stages of evolution are indeed based on diversity, pain, suffering and death. But where to does the Evolution go? The weak dies, the strong flourishes, untill only the strongest ones remain. This process can be modified once the world gets intelligent enough beings, who have power and desire to modify the process...

...Pain and suffering can be smoothed, and death almost completely removed from the equation by replacing "fighting to the death" by almost harmless (but also very effective) civilized competition (like olympic games for example). Even combat situations and hazards can be simulated realistically enough to make people stronger without killing many of them. We can left "pain, suffering, and death" to the wild beasts, who can't live in any other way, because they are not intelligent enough. Or we can help those beasts if we can do it correctly.

Evolution's destination is the end of diversity. Synthesis instantly finalizes evolution of the body, but body is not the only thing that goes through Evolution. Society has it's own Evolution, and Synthesis doesn't finalize it, but raise it up by one level, and speeds up the rest of the way greatly.

Modifié par Seival, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:06 .

[Davik Kang]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Lets see...

For Control, we have the Illusive Man and Cerberus going on about it in the third game, but all we did was fight against that idea. It wasn't always about control, and its pressence is minor at best. Pretty sh*tty support for one of the apparent three pillars of the game. 

For Synthesis, Saren kind of said something similar to it that one time before he dies, but then it's forgotten about for the rest of the game. 

For destoy, I guess that was pretty much just the third game, but then the third game is all about destorying them. Stopping them was more correct, but stopping them never involved cooperation, or anything like control or synthesis. 

Organics versus Synthetics was part of the Geth and Quarian relationship, never the main conflict, never said to be a galaxy defining problem, unsolvable, or the cause of organic extinction. 

I'll take it that you're being serious?  Seriously serious?

Control is something that wasn't alluded to?  

OF COURSE we fight against it the whole game.  THAT'S THE POINT.  YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO THINK "hmm, where have I heard this before?"  AND THEN THINK "is this a good idea?"  IT'S BEEN SMASHED IN YOUR FACE FOR THE WHOLE OF ME2 AND ME3.  USING YOUR OPPONENT'S WEAPONS AGAINST THEM.  USING THE TECHNOLOGY LEFT BY THE PROTHEANS AND THE REAPERS.  IS THIS A GOOD IDEA?

The idea of using your enemies technology and the moral implications of it, utilizing knowledge in general (Maleon's data, for example), is not the same as Control. Control is the Illusive Man using the Reapers for Cerberus's ends. We fight the idea of doing this through the entire game, and for it to suddenly become an option five minutes after the f*cker dies thanks to you taking objection to his plans, is seriously f*cking funny. In a bad way. 

Saren said something similar to Synthesis?  DID YOU MISS THE REPEATED CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LIFE ASCENDING TO A PEAK OF EVOLUTION?  SPIECES BEING UPLIFTED AND BEING UNABLE TO HANDLE IT BECUASE THEY WEREN'T READY?  LEGION TALKING ABOUT REACHING A FINAL STATE OF EVOLUTION WHERE THEY WERE ALL CONNECTED TO A CENTRAL FRAMEWORK?  HARBINGER AND SOVERIEGN BANGING ON ABOUT THE INEVITABILITY OF GENETIC DESTINY AND BEING THE HARBINGER OF OUR PERFECTION?

Certainly not, it's just that none of its relevant to the idea of Synthesis. 

Oh, Destroying them didn't involve cooperating?  OH REALLY?  ARE YOU SURE?  HOLY CRAP.  I THOUGHT THEY ALWAYS WANTED US TO WIPE THEM OUT.  YOU MAKE IT SOUND AS IF DESTROY IS SOMEHOW OPPOSED TO SYNTHESIS AND CONTROL.

Not entirely sure what any of that means. 

Did you just smash the buttons every time a character started talking?  WERE WE EVEN PLAYING THE SAME GAME?

From this caps-fileld rant of irrelevancy; seems like it. Obviously what you gleaned from the story is different from what I did. 

Highlighted the parts where I think we can agree.  Does seem like the whole point of the final choice went over your head somewhat.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:13 .

[dorktainian]

Seival: Created 3 minutes ago.

''Evolution's destination is the end of diversity. Synthesis instantly finalizes evolution of the body, but body is not the only thing that goes through Evolution. Society has it's own Evolution, and Synthesis doesn't finalize it, but raise it up by one level, and speeds up the rest of the way greatly.''

garbage imo.

surely evolution will create greater diversity not remove it? for organics and synthetics to evolve to a state where they would merge is utter utter garbage. there are some really nailed on factors as to why this could not be the case.

remember that science fiction is usually based on science. have a think about the complex nature of organisms, the complex biochemical composition of life, then come back and tell me how synthesis would work (based on shepard falling into a beam of light which somehow had the energy and mass to travel throughout the universe and convert anything into a hybrid?)

''a stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles''

[galland]

ALL WRITERS CAN BE COMPARED WITH MASS EFFECT! @ drayfish
*Bill Watterson*
Calvin '' People always make the mistake of thinking art is created for them........
but really,art is private language for sophisticates to congratulate themselves on their superiority to the rest of the world,......
as my artists statement explains,my work is utterly incomprehensible and is therefore full of deep significance.
Hobbes '' You misspelled*weltanschauung*
Calvin ''A good artists statement says more than his art ever does''

Thus: Bill Watterson supports ALL the endings!?

Modifié par galland, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[drayfish]

galland wrote...

ALL WRITERS CAN BE COMPARED WITH MASS EFFECT! @ drayfish
*Bill Watterson*
Calvin '' People always make the mistake of thinking art is created for them........
but really,art is private language for sophisticates to congratulate themselves on their superiority to the rest of the world,......
as my artists statement explains,my work is utterly incomprehensible and is therefore full of deep significance.
Hobbes '' You misspelled*weltanschauung*
Calvin ''A good artists statement says more than his art ever does''

Thus: Bill Watterson supports ALL the endings!?

Yay! From the very bottom of my soul: yay! 

Calvin and the Hobbes is the greatest!
 
Although I think, as this evidence proves, Waterson was also a fan of Dinosaur DLC:

Modifié par drayfish, 07 novembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Ieldra]

Seival, you're giving Synthesis supporters a bad name, and you probably don't even realize it.

About evolution: there is no "final destination" of evolution, and it definitely doesn't tend towards "no diversity". Life flourishes in the most unlikely places, and needs to be specifically adapted to marginal environments. Even should we come to control our own evolution, the result will likely be more diversity rather than less. Why? Because too many people want to be...

Regarding our cultural evolution as a social species, it *may* tend towards an ever more complex network of communication, which is what my Synthesis interpretation is based on. But even there there is no "final destination".

Also, latest since the EC, "Synthesis removes diversity" is off the table. The only perspective it removes is that of non-empathic synthetics. Every other species and every other individual is as different from any other species or individual as it was before.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:55 .

[M Hedonist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival, you're giving Synthesis supporters a bad name, and you probably don't even realize it.

No kidding. I've seen many Synthesis fanatics on this forum, but Seival takes the cake without doubt.
After EC, I've learned to accept people who pick Synthesis... now I just don't even know anymore.

[drayfish]

Paulomedi wrote...

Seilval, Blueprotoss and other here carry the stench of eugenics.

Luckily they are all a bunch of two-digit I.Q. "experts".

But what happens when a guy with this way of thinking has a proeminent position in society?

Um... based on this response:

Seival wrote...

Early stages of evolution are indeed based on diversity, pain, suffering and death. But where to does the Evolution go? The weak dies, the strong flourishes, untill only the strongest ones remain. This process can be modified once the world gets intelligent enough beings, who have power and desire to modify the process...

...Pain and suffering can be smoothed, and death almost completely removed from the equation by replacing "fighting to the death" by almost harmless (but also very effective) civilized competition (like olympic games for example). Even combat situations and hazards can be simulated realistically enough to make people stronger without killing many of them. We can left "pain, suffering, and death" to the wild beasts, who can't live in any other way, because they are not intelligent enough. Or we can help those beasts if we can do it correctly.

Evolution's destination is the end of diversity. Synthesis instantly finalizes evolution of the body, but body is not the only thing that goes through Evolution. Society has it's own Evolution, and Synthesis doesn't finalize it, but raise it up by one level, and speeds up the rest of the way greatly.

We pack up our genes and get the hell out...

Because I am getting legitimately scared now.

Seival - and I really mean this, all joking aside - please tell me you are just fooling around.  Please tell me this is all just some kind of weird joke that went too far.

Again: you claim to love Harry Harrison - what on earth do you think he would say about this kind of disgusting talk?

Forcing people to compete for the right to live?  Governing the genetic makeup of all life in pursuit to some (utterly illogical) endpoint?  Trumpeting the 'end of diversity'?

This is froth-bag Bond-villain talk. 

You need to take a breath, knock the white cat off your lap, and maybe listen to some mellow jazz for a spell, because this is getting way beyond the ramblings of a belligerent posting troll and slipping into some really creepy 'final solution' type horror. 

Genuinely: think about where you are headed here, and help yourself.

Modifié par drayfish, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[KingZayd]

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

I'm afraid that differences can't be accepted. You can hide the hostility, and can even convince yourself the hostility is gone, but that is a delusion. Sooner or later that hidden bomb will blow...

...It's better to remove the bomb, than keep it armed in a museum.

and this is why racism is still a problem today.

[Ieldra]

Sauruz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival, you're giving Synthesis supporters a bad name, and you probably don't even realize it.

No kidding. I've seen many Synthesis fanatics on this forum, but Seival takes the cake without doubt.
After EC, I've learned to accept people who pick Synthesis... now I just don't even know anymore.

You have? As I see it, actual fanatics are rather rare among the Synthesis supporters. As opposed to Destroy, the opinion "Synthesis is the only solution" is practically non-existent. As a Synthesis supporter, I rather feel like a persecuted minority at times. I'm used to being in the minority with my opinions about stories, but nowhere else on the internet has the atmosphere ever been this bad.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[drayfish]

KingZayd wrote...

Seival wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

Seival wrote...

...To stop being Alien is to remove the most dangerous differences.

Wow. I have not read something that is so misanthropic in a long while. This is Troper Tales-stuff.
To stop being alien means to accept each other's differences, not to remove them. What the ****. What the ****. What the ****.

I'm afraid that differences can't be accepted. You can hide the hostility, and can even convince yourself the hostility is gone, but that is a delusion. Sooner or later that hidden bomb will blow...

...It's better to remove the bomb, than keep it armed in a museum.

and this is why racism is still a problem today.

And I find it horrifying that Mass Effect 3 is able to be used to endorse such hateful intolerance.
 
Because of course we can never get along with synthetics...

Nope.  They're just too different.  Conflict is inevitable 'cause, you know...  It just is.  So I guess we better exterminate them, become their overlord to keep them in line, or just mutate everyone so that such diversity doesn't exist anymore to scare us all with its big old differences.

Yep.  It's a proud vision of the future; mired in the past.

Modifié par drayfish, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:29 .

[hukbum]

drayfish wrote...

And I find it horrifying that Mass Effect 3 is able to be used to endorse such hateful intolerance.

Jep. In a very easy way, I'm afraid. Good job Bioware, good job. Well done.

[Archonsg]

drayfish wrote...

Paulomedi wrote...

Seilval, Blueprotoss and other here carry the stench of eugenics.

Luckily they are all a bunch of two-digit I.Q. "experts".

But what happens when a guy with this way of thinking has a proeminent position in society?

Um... based on this response:

Seival wrote...

Early stages of evolution are indeed based on diversity, pain, suffering and death. But where to does the Evolution go? The weak dies, the strong flourishes, untill only the strongest ones remain. This process can be modified once the world gets intelligent enough beings, who have power and desire to modify the process...

...Pain and suffering can be smoothed, and death almost completely removed from the equation by replacing "fighting to the death" by almost harmless (but also very effective) civilized competition (like olympic games for example). Even combat situations and hazards can be simulated realistically enough to make people stronger without killing many of them. We can left "pain, suffering, and death" to the wild beasts, who can't live in any other way, because they are not intelligent enough. Or we can help those beasts if we can do it correctly.

Evolution's destination is the end of diversity. Synthesis instantly finalizes evolution of the body, but body is not the only thing that goes through Evolution. Society has it's own Evolution, and Synthesis doesn't finalize it, but raise it up by one level, and speeds up the rest of the way greatly.

We pack up our genes and get the hell out...

Because I am getting legitimately scared now.

Seival - and I really mean this, all joking aside - please tell me you are just fooling around.  Please tell me this is all just some kind of weird joke that went too far.

Again: you claim to love Harry Harrison - what on earth do you think he would say about this kind of disgusting talk?

Forcing people to compete for the right to live?  Governing the genetic makeup of all life in pursuit to some (utterly illogical) endpoint?  Trumpeting the 'end of diversity'?

This is froth-bag Bond-villain talk. 

You need to take a breath, knock the white cat off your lap, and maybe listen to some mellow jazz for a spell, because this is getting way beyond the ramblings of a belligerent posting troll and slipping into some really creepy 'final solution' type horror. 

Genuinely: think about where you are headed here, and help yourself.

You know, reading Sevial's post up there.
I have to wonder if he / she goes around to "cleanse" anyone of other than "approved racial stock".

[Redbelle]

Ok, intermission! Please get up from your seats and walk about.

Icecream sellers at the front have this for you:

[Applepie_Svk]

Reading this thread again and I have a theory including 4 paths why is the OP so wrong, in the other words I BET MY 50 cents ON NUMBER 3...

1. He has no idea what is he talking about...



2. He is indoctrinated



3. He is a troll...



4. Or worst case scenario. he is serious...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 07 novembre 2012 - 03:36 .

[galland]

Sorry....senior moment.

Modifié par galland, 07 novembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[galland]

another of the above

Modifié par galland, 07 novembre 2012 - 04:55 .