36 réponses à ce sujet

[slevvio]

I was reading that the enemies get stronger as you level up. Is this true? I am a sword and shield warrior, and have already learned all the talents that I am going to use (I also used a few skill books), the only remaining ones are duel wielding and 2-handed weapon talents, so I cannot get any more benefit. However will this not mean that I will get weaker as I level up relative to the other enemies since I am not getting any more abilities? It kind of makes me sad and gives me no incentive to try to do sidequests or anything since levelling up loses its charm slightly if it doesn't make me a stronger character.

[Mysticbread]

You will get 3 atribute points which you should put in to make your skills you already learned more powerfull

[Boozan]

In my opinion, the monsters do not change....However, you will find monsters that are tough(probably a tanker since your a dps) which will deflect your attacks and ****** you off. Otherwise, the game might just be smart about it and lay traps everywhere(spoiler: inside the mountaintop cave, BIG TRAPS that ****** YOU OFF).



Typically saying, if you have a good agro tank with you(Alistar or a AW mage), you will never lose a battle.



For example: my mage does decent damage and kills enemies quickly(damage=56-93, cold) however, there are some cold resistant monsters that ****** me off so i would do 7-16 damage on them which is weak.

[Hahren]

You gain levels regardless if you train or not. So the enemies will always scale. You can't stop it.

[aphelion002]

Its not also a complete level scaling, monsters have a minimum and max level, so you will be still be vastly out of your league if you stay at level 1 the whole game.

[Thanatos Rex]

Even if your created character has the skills it needs, there are still alot of skills to get for the others that will save your but. i.e.-ressurect

[NDAv]

Level scaling is the dumbest thing ever since it makes leveling up pointless, but luckily, there is not much level scaling in Dragon Age as far as I can see. Many enemies will get relatively easier as you level, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Rahelron]

Level scaling is implemented properly only in downloaded content I as far as I can see (which is bad Imho). All the other encounters scale very little and become really easier as long as you level up. Try to do the whole orzammar as your first quest after loathering, and then as your last one... you'll see.

[Kepha]

You go up in level immediately once you gain the experience. All you'd do is cripple yourself by not spending your attribute, talent, and skill points, but it won't help with the level scaling to not spend them.

[stillnotking]

Most encounters actually do scale, there are only a few that don't. Areas do have minimum and maximum levels for scaling purposes, but the minimum is usually pretty low and the maximum is almost always very high. Redcliffe and the Circle Tower are the two big exceptions: those areas will be trivial if you are high level. The Deep Roads/Anvil of the Void are extremely difficult below level 10, but it's actually pretty hard to get there before level 10, unless you make a beeline from Lothering and do no side quests at all.



That said, the game does get noticeably easier at higher levels, provided you have allocated your points correctly and you have acquired decent gear. Level scaling doesn't take gear into account.

[Anonymouswizard]

stillnotking wrote...

Most encounters actually do scale, there are only a few that don't. Areas do have minimum and maximum levels for scaling purposes, but the minimum is usually pretty low and the maximum is almost always very high. Redcliffe and the Circle Tower are the two big exceptions: those areas will be trivial if you are high level. The Deep Roads/Anvil of the Void are extremely difficult below level 10, but it's actually pretty hard to get there before level 10, unless you make a beeline from Lothering and do no side quests at all.

That said, the game does get noticeably easier at higher levels, provided you have allocated your points correctly and you have acquired decent gear. Level scaling doesn't take gear into account.

Well it's called level scaling, not level+party+gear scaling.

[termokanden]

The whole point in leveling up is that you get more abilities to kill monsters and you also outscale their level scaling if you build your characters correctly.

[MikeCheck1212]

The problem with not having level scaling is that the game would have to be much linear.

[termokanden]

Well I like to use Morrowind as an example here. It had level scaling to a degree, but nothing like Oblivion.

When I just got the game, I went to Balmora (where the main quest starts) and decided "to hell with this, I'm doing the main quest later". I looked at the paper map and saw something called Ghostgate. Sounded spooky, so on my way I went. It was quite a long trip, and I had to dodge increasingly scary mobs and ominous-looking ruins (well, I took a look inside one and had to reload the game ). When I finally got there, I was chased for what seemed like miles away from the place by an "ash ghoul".

With level scaling, I could have beaten it. Or alternatively I wouldn't be able to access the area yet. But what developers fail to realize is that I actually had fun being chased out, only to come back later and teach that ghoul a lesson. It reinforced the feeling that Ghostgate was a scary place, not meant for a weak outlander like me. As a lowly player, I am perfectly capable of grasping the idea of "not powerful enough yet, come back later".

Then along came Oblivion, and suddenly everything would just be your level. Not only that, if you didn't pick optimal choices while leveling, mobs would start outscaling you and even bandits would gradually become tougher.

I don't much like level scaling, but I think so far in the hands of Bioware it hasn't been too bad. In Mass Effect even non-combat skills were merged with combat skills so you didn't have "wasted" levels like in Oblivion (by the way, brilliant move in Mass Effect, I'm surprised I've not heard anyone else praise this yet), and in Dragon Age you just generally outscale the mobs.

Oh, anyway, rambling aside. Morrowind is just about the LEAST linear game out there, and it doesn't scale everything to your level.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 janvier 2010 - 12:53 .

[lordrawker]

I tried questing in Denerim after Lothering, and I must say that it's way harder than if done later, especially the alleys but it's far from impossible. It made me pause every now and then. Alistair can't tank well since he lacks talents that augment his tanking. So most of the time, he dies. He lacks HP since I'm not adding Constitution and the health added every level is of big help. To me, there's still a point in leveling.

[CBGB]

I found the level scaling in DAO far, far more satisfying than in Oblivion.



In Oblivion, the scaling was so direct, you gained little from leveling up. In fact, the very strongest builds often halted leveling altogether at a fairly early stage. I ended up using an Excel sheet to plan exactly when and how to level; so much for roleplaying.



In DAO, there's a level 'range' for each area, so your advancement can make you relatively stronger, plus the addition of more Spells, Talents, and Attribute points makes a big difference.



I'm quite happy with the DAO level scaling, which kept fights appropriately but not overwhelmingly challenging.

[maxernst]

Hmm...I haven't been playing long enough to see the effects of level scaling so I can't say how it impacts this game, but in general, I hate it. For one thing it breaks the sense of immersion for me to find the entire world becoming more dangerous over time...why have the thieves in this city become so much more skilled? How do ordinary people survive when cities and farmlands are just as dangerous as the wilderness? Where is all this treasure coming from that wasn't here before? It just isn't logical--and before you break in with the "it's fantasy, magic isn't logical" argument, the mere fact that magic exists doesn't mean a world shouldn't operate in an internally consistent fashion.



Furthermore, it forces all characters to optimize for combat or get overwhelmed as they level up, which is very limiting. This really annoyed me in a NWN2 Persistent World I used to play. My character concept was essentially of a bard who thought of himself primarily as a musician and focused on socializing and storytelling in the bar, only occasionally getting swept up into adventures--but as he got higher and higher level he became less and less effective. The problem was exacerbated because he gained most of his experience through roleplay and DM-driven adventures rather than solo grinding, so his equipment was extremely sub-par for his level. I had a second character who was half his level who could solo in areas where he would get slaughtered.



I also dislike it from a more practical standpoint. It tends to make side quests a waste of time. Oblivion was particularly bad for this...they built this huge world with lots of areas but there was really no reason to explore them. At any given level, they all had pretty much the same loot and enemies, so you might as well just finish the game.



Finally, in a game that doesn't scale if you attempt a quest before your characters are ready and get clobbered, you can always come back when you're stronger. If levelling up isn't going to make things any easier, a difficult encounter is much more discouraging.

[phordicus]

MikeCheck1212 wrote...

The problem with not having level scaling is that the game would have to be much linear.

bull****.  lazy design promoting lazy thinking.  there's already linearity in that you're much more likely to get your ass kicked trying to go to orzammar right out of lothering.  check how many guides practically require doing the mage circle first or that recommend denerim before every archer there gets scattershot.  the game catapults you to your first specialization before you've even made a real quest path choice, so the first three areas (origin, ostagar, lothering) are absolutely linear.  with no respawning enemies they knew nearly exactly how much XP you'd have before the only Real Level Scaling Decision you get to make:  difficult quests first and easy ones last or perfectly scaled quests first and slightly difficult quests last.

Modifié par phordicus, 06 janvier 2010 - 11:54 .

[Haplose]

I would say the level scaling is very well done in DAO. That hates from someone who absolutely hated the character (and mob) development system of Oblivion.

[Tirigon]

I don´t understand all the Hate for levelscaling in Oblivion. You got stronger by leveling up. On lv 1 I had trouble fighting a single bandit, On lv 42 I could easily fight a dozen highend enemies at once and kill even the strongest bosses within seconds. If you don´t believe, murder someone on lv 1 and fight the guards. After dying, load an lv 40 char and do the same. You will see you can one-hit most of them, and easily fight 20 or more at once. While being practically invulnerable. (85 % armor, 100%magic resistance, 50% damage reflection, incredible spell absorb / reflect and a selfheal for 300, in my case for example - with mods I actually got to 200!!!!! % damage reflection, 100% spell reflect and 100% spell absorption once. I could just go afk in a fight and come back when they killed themselves)



Sorry for off topic, but had to say that now.

[Hahren]

maxernst wrote...

Hmm...I haven't been playing long enough to see the effects of level scaling so I can't say how it impacts this game, but in general, I hate it. For one thing it breaks the sense of immersion for me to find the entire world becoming more dangerous over time...why have the thieves in this city become so much more skilled? How do ordinary people survive when cities and farmlands are just as dangerous as the wilderness? Where is all this treasure coming from that wasn't here before? It just isn't logical--and before you break in with the "it's fantasy, magic isn't logical" argument, the mere fact that magic exists doesn't mean a world shouldn't operate in an internally consistent fashion.

Furthermore, it forces all characters to optimize for combat or get overwhelmed as they level up, which is very limiting. This really annoyed me in a NWN2 Persistent World I used to play. My character concept was essentially of a bard who thought of himself primarily as a musician and focused on socializing and storytelling in the bar, only occasionally getting swept up into adventures--but as he got higher and higher level he became less and less effective. The problem was exacerbated because he gained most of his experience through roleplay and DM-driven adventures rather than solo grinding, so his equipment was extremely sub-par for his level. I had a second character who was half his level who could solo in areas where he would get slaughtered.

I also dislike it from a more practical standpoint. It tends to make side quests a waste of time. Oblivion was particularly bad for this...they built this huge world with lots of areas but there was really no reason to explore them. At any given level, they all had pretty much the same loot and enemies, so you might as well just finish the game.

Finally, in a game that doesn't scale if you attempt a quest before your characters are ready and get clobbered, you can always come back when you're stronger. If levelling up isn't going to make things any easier, a difficult encounter is much more discouraging.

I found DA:O has a nice balance of level scaling vs your gear/skill level. Even though the bad guys gain levels they apparently do not gain all the same talent point potential you do. Just because you are fighting level 20 archers they don't bombard you with Arrow of Slaying for example. You can two shot a genlock with a 2h weapon at level 4, 15, 20, etc... as long as you build for doing damage.

Another thing too about immersion in this game... Bandits are a threat, and common people do fear them. This is pretty apparent in Lothering. Blood Mages are a threat, and should be taken seriously. Darkspawn are no joke for the commoner. All of these types tend to come at you in large groups, and that is what tends to make them dangerous.

At least in this game once you have killed off the bandits/mages etc... that are a threat to the lands they stay dead. You won't wander around the country and randomly encounter level 22 bandits. Usually by then you have scourged the land, and the game tends to focus more on the darkspawn. The darkspawn gaining in strength made sense to me in the late game because the bulk of the horde is now falling on Ferelden. By the time you are going into the final battle you are facing alpha's, and generals. Maybe in some games this sort of scaling system seems silly, but I felt it works in this one. Also you'll hardly notice most of the time since most of the bad guys don't gain new abilities, and a lot of the time they are as easy/easier to defeat due to your expanded options. It feels a lot more fluid in this game than others.

[Haplose]

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t understand all the Hate for levelscaling in Oblivion. You got stronger by leveling up. On lv 1 I had trouble fighting a single bandit, On lv 42 I could easily fight a dozen highend enemies at once and kill even the strongest bosses within seconds. If you don´t believe, murder someone on lv 1 and fight the guards. After dying, load an lv 40 char and do the same. You will see you can one-hit most of them, and easily fight 20 or more at once. While being practically invulnerable. (85 % armor, 100%magic resistance, 50% damage reflection, incredible spell absorb / reflect and a selfheal for 300, in my case for example - with mods I actually got to 200!!!!! % damage reflection, 100% spell reflect and 100% spell absorption once. I could just go afk in a fight and come back when they killed themselves)

Sorry for off topic, but had to say that now.

That's because you're not supposed to fight the guards, at least you're not supposed to be able to at the beginning.
So they don't scale much, if at all. They just start at a high level and with solid equipment.
I'm really amazed I have to explain such basic things. Try fighting a goblin or whatever you have been fighting since the beginning of the game with a char who uses mainly a skill that is not that great in combat and made it a major skill...

Sure you can exploit the system and choose the skills that you're never gonna use as "Major". Then you max the skills that are actually usefull without gaining levels and the game becomes gradually easier. But choosing "Major" skills that you dislike and don't want to raise much/fast seems kinda counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
Actually I'm not sure if it's possible to design a more silly system then this...

[stillnotking]

RPG gamers have different priorities. Some enjoy the chance to become Godlike, to measure their character's progress by how easily they can annihilate mobs that once gave them trouble; they won't like level scaling. Others primarily play for the strategic challenge of beating difficult encounters; they will like level scaling. Still others just want to experience a good story, and probably won't care too much about level scaling.

I'm in the second and third categories so I think scaling is just peachy, but those who incline toward the first category might not enjoy DA:O.

[Veritasinpersonam]

termokanden: I'm surprised the terrifying squack of Cliff Racers didn't put an end to your little misadventure long before arriving at Ghost Gate.

[Dam Wookie]

RPG gamers have different priorities. Those who like to think about situations and those who don't. DAO levelling is a thoughtless process. It has very little effect. You just add some points and pick some skills you want to use and that is it. You can't go wrong (unless you pick bows). For the thinkers the system is annoying. For the idiots the system is just peachy.



Your best bet is not to worry that you have picked the skills you like and just forget about the levelling system. Your being looked after, protected, hand-held, cuddled by the system (you big bad warden you) so you won't get weak. Or you could go get yourself smacked around the head a few times with a stick until you start to dribble and slur your words and then you come back to DAO, you will then find the levelling system interesting.