36 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

You don't have to force a linear structure on a game because there's no level scaling. Take Might & Magic VI as an example. I remember getting the water walking spell fairly early and doing some exploring in the very first geographic area. I came across a dungeon that nobody in town had mentioned to me and wandered in, to find it full of fire elementals. I ran out immediately and later found out that dungeon was tied to a later quest. All you have to do is set up the game in a way that gives the player some indication of the danger levels before they're in over their head. That way, they can choose their own difficulty--shouldn't players who like tactical changes like to have an opportunity to take on opponents that are not recommended for their level? The Might and Magic games weren't particularly linear (they didn't have much story at all), and they certainly did allow you to attempt very difficult challenges or not, as you saw fit.



And sure, ordinary people are frightened of bandits, but that doesn't mean that the bandits should become more dangerous over time. Take your typical rural fantasy area where the farmers suffer from occasional kobold and goblin raids, and the spooky old graveyard near the town has zombies in it. Suppose you came back to the same area and the farmers are now complaining of fire giant raids and the graveyard is overrun with liches...aren't you going to wonder how on earth these people can possibly be surviving? I certainly remember wondering in Oblivion where every bandit in the world acquired ebony and glass equipment. Maybe it's not that bad in DA:O, but that's what I think of when I hear of level scaling.

[Sarevok Anchev]

Aye , im with maxi

At least Dragon Age has a "soft" scaling: All enemys have a min. and max. level, which they can reach.



Besides Leveling is good, because it isnt the simple mathematic "hey my party got 1lvl x 4 and the enemy crowd is 8, so they got 8 lvls, what makes them with every level harder".



Some later spells and talents can change the whole battle-concepts, so linear level scaling isnt the only factor.

[Tirigon]

Haplose wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t understand all the Hate for levelscaling in Oblivion. You got stronger by leveling up. On lv 1 I had trouble fighting a single bandit, On lv 42 I could easily fight a dozen highend enemies at once and kill even the strongest bosses within seconds. If you don´t believe, murder someone on lv 1 and fight the guards. After dying, load an lv 40 char and do the same. You will see you can one-hit most of them, and easily fight 20 or more at once. While being practically invulnerable. (85 % armor, 100%magic resistance, 50% damage reflection, incredible spell absorb / reflect and a selfheal for 300, in my case for example - with mods I actually got to 200!!!!! % damage reflection, 100% spell reflect and 100% spell absorption once. I could just go afk in a fight and come back when they killed themselves)

Sorry for off topic, but had to say that now.

That's because you're not supposed to fight the guards, at least you're not supposed to be able to at the beginning.
So they don't scale much, if at all. They just start at a high level and with solid equipment.
I'm really amazed I have to explain such basic things. Try fighting a goblin or whatever you have been fighting since the beginning of the game with a char who uses mainly a skill that is not that great in combat and made it a major skill...

Sure you can exploit the system and choose the skills that you're never gonna use as "Major". Then you max the skills that are actually usefull without gaining levels and the game becomes gradually easier. But choosing "Major" skills that you dislike and don't want to raise much/fast seems kinda counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
Actually I'm not sure if it's possible to design a more silly system then this...

I only chose the skills I wanted to use. Especially destruction and swordfighting, as well as healing. And sure, they level with you. But while their spells increase from novice to the 100 damage spells or so, mine increased to 300 (vanilla) and 1500 (with mods), so you could oneshot everything. And btw, I found the goblins a hell of a lot harder at the beginning than later....

You might recheck my stats. Did you ever encounter an enemy even close to that?




Back to topic: I agree with those saying that level scaling doesn´t matter that much, as it´s more about the story and the fun than about becoming godlike.

Modifié par Tirigon, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:06 .

[OriginalTibs]

My understanding is that the area you enter will scale to you within a certain range. Theoretical example: I enter Orzammar at, say, L10~L12 It scales to me but never scales lower than 10 even if I entered at Level 8. Once the scale is set for an area you could leave and return later and the scale will still be as it was, potentially making it a pushover in combat. Other hand if I waited till 19 before entering Orzammar then it would scale to me at 19: Not just the mobs but also the loot.

[Sarevok Anchev]

OriginalTibs wrote...

My understanding is that the area you enter will scale to you within a certain range. Theoretical example: I enter Orzammar at, say, L10~L12 It scales to me but never scales lower than 10 even if I entered at Level 8. Once the scale is set for an area you could leave and return later and the scale will still be as it was, potentially making it a pushover in combat. Other hand if I waited till 19 before entering Orzammar then it would scale to me at 19: Not just the mobs but also the loot.

The first idea is possible IF you can fight your way through the "Start-Encounters" !
In Orzammar it will be the group before the Gates of Orzammar in the Mountains.
On lvl 8 they really kicked my butt and when i came back at lvl 12 it was easygoing.

BUT they wont scale unlimitedly! There is a levelcap that enemys in every region will hit and then its the maximum they can have. Like a Mod said "you will never fight a Epic Kitchen-Rat" 

[DJ0000]

Haplose wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I don´t understand all the Hate for levelscaling in Oblivion. You got stronger by leveling up. On lv 1 I had trouble fighting a single bandit, On lv 42 I could easily fight a dozen highend enemies at once and kill even the strongest bosses within seconds. If you don´t believe, murder someone on lv 1 and fight the guards. After dying, load an lv 40 char and do the same. You will see you can one-hit most of them, and easily fight 20 or more at once. While being practically invulnerable. (85 % armor, 100%magic resistance, 50% damage reflection, incredible spell absorb / reflect and a selfheal for 300, in my case for example - with mods I actually got to 200!!!!! % damage reflection, 100% spell reflect and 100% spell absorption once. I could just go afk in a fight and come back when they killed themselves)

Sorry for off topic, but had to say that now.

That's because you're not supposed to fight the guards, at least you're not supposed to be able to at the beginning.
So they don't scale much, if at all. They just start at a high level and with solid equipment.
I'm really amazed I have to explain such basic things. Try fighting a goblin or whatever you have been fighting since the beginning of the game with a char who uses mainly a skill that is not that great in combat and made it a major skill...

Sure you can exploit the system and choose the skills that you're never gonna use as "Major". Then you max the skills that are actually usefull without gaining levels and the game becomes gradually easier. But choosing "Major" skills that you dislike and don't want to raise much/fast seems kinda counter-intuitive, doesn't it?
Actually I'm not sure if it's possible to design a more silly system then this...

Am I the only person that thought Oblivion became incredibly easy after level 20, I became a god at level 23 and that was without all those ridiculous 100% resist enchantment.

I really don't understand why you would want to stay low levelled in any role playing game be it Oblivion or DA, even if it is levelled you generally have the advantage of eventually getting better equipment than the enemies and also should have the advantage of being much smarter than the AI, mabey the problem isn't with the levelling but people not levelling up effectively.

[Tirigon]

DJ0000 wrote...


Am I the only person that thought Oblivion became incredibly easy after level 20, I became a god at level 23 and that was without all those ridiculous 100% resist enchantment.

I really don't understand why you would want to stay low levelled in any role playing game be it Oblivion or DA, even if it is levelled you generally have the advantage of eventually getting better equipment than the enemies and also should have the advantage of being much smarter than the AI, mabey the problem isn't with the levelling but people not levelling up effectively.

The resist is only necessary because I played with mods making it more difficult and, from Lv 25 on, on higher difficulty. In Vanila you are a god from earlier than 20, and I never encountered really hard enemies - except for clannfear on lv 8.

[Haplose]

DJ0000 wrote...

Am I the only person that thought Oblivion became incredibly easy after level 20, I became a god at level 23 and that was without all those ridiculous 100% resist enchantment.

I really don't understand why you would want to stay low levelled in any role playing game be it Oblivion or DA, even if it is levelled you generally have the advantage of eventually getting better equipment than the enemies and also should have the advantage of being much smarter than the AI, mabey the problem isn't with the levelling but people not levelling up effectively.

No, it did became extremly easy (as long as you powergame) and you became practically immortal. But that only evenmoreso means that the game system was totally out of whack.

[Tirigon]

Haplose wrote...

No, it did became extremly easy (as long as you powergame) and you became practically immortal. But that only evenmoreso means that the game system was totally out of whack.

Ehrm... Not that I disagree with you, but didnt you complain that the enemies level with you and therefore leveling is unnecessary? You contradict yourself....

[Haplose]

Tirigon wrote...

Haplose wrote...

No, it did became extremly easy (as long as you powergame) and you became practically immortal. But that only evenmoreso means that the game system was totally out of whack.

Ehrm... Not that I disagree with you, but didnt you complain that the enemies level with you and therefore leveling is unnecessary? You contradict yourself....

I suppose I did contradict myself, didn't I?
Overall IMVHO the Oblivion's system is about as silly, as it gets.

The contradiction arose from the fact that the first time I wrote, I spoke from the perspective of an average player with no prior knowledge of the system. I do believe there were many such complaints about the increased game's difficulty due to scaling. And I can perfectly understand what could have caused it. Often the more you level, the worse. Since the actuall power lies in skillpoints and not levels. So you ended up with a much stronger character if you raised skills without increasing level (it's perfectly possible to reach 100% at level 1). To do that however you need to avoid increasing skills tagged as "major", as increasing them will quickly raise your level - possibly leaving you behind in other areas.
Since I'm a powergamer by heart, mostly did that - and yes, the game was trivially easy - for me and other who exploited the system one way or the other. I can easily imagine though how I could be struggling  if I made an "RP build". Hence the contradiction in my previous posts - because I wrote from two different points of view.
Both point at a totally borked and uninteresting game system however.

[ArathWoeeye]

I'd like to bring a new point of view here.

I never saw level scaling as "bandits become more and more dangerous over time". I merely see it as "bandits are a threat to everyone". It just adds more realism that more enemies are dangerous to you at some grade at all times.



Now, when a game tells a story, what usually done is, take players into a linear story and face them against stronger mobs. Icewind Dale is a good example.

When a game wants to be sandbox-ish, then they sacrifice some or more of storyline. Take M&M games or Mount&Blade for a total sacrifice/sandbox experience.



What Dragon Age does is finding a mid ground. They let us take the paths we want but also tell stories there and contribute to the main plot. For this end, they have found a very good system: Min-Max levels. This ensures that the game is never too easy nor too hard. If it wasn't like that, we'd have to (making up) elves first since it was easiest. Or go to dwarves, second easiest. But we could never try mages, which would require at least a 12th level party. And when we went to elves last, it would be so easy that playing it wouldn't be fun at all.

Heck, even now it can be quite easy when you are strong enough. I think it's a very wise and good decision to have limited level scaling.





As for the OP's question: I think it's answered when someone said you level up anyway, whether you distribute points or not. I'd like to add that it's also the human mind vs AI that makes it worthy. You don't need to fear your enemies being stronger, becouse you can act more reactively and overall be a better strategist than the AI could ever be. In fact, that is one of the fun parts of the game, to discover what to do against the enemy. The fun ends in DA:O when you start casting cone of cold but still ;P

[J.O.G]

People keep forgetting that almost every game with a large level span and a measure of free movement has to scale to a point. Yes, even holy BG2 did, and much less subtle so than DA:O.

Games with less levels like BG1 simply restrict you by power, you can't get the key to the high level areas without being powerful enough to survive them. Ultima 4-7and Might&Magic are the exceptions, and Oblivion is the bad apple.

The last areas you visit in DA:O will be easier than the first ones, only a few bosses will keep pace with your leveling, loot and shop inventory improves, yes, but usually 1-2 tiers don't make that much of a difference..