817 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Who cares? Its a problem of the mundanes not the mages.

And thus mundanes are fixing the problem by locking the mages.
Something I think the qunari have a good point.

The problem will never be "fixed". It wouldn't matter if mages were executed immediatly upon discovery, you can't prevent mages from being born, and there's no way of knowing if a child will be a mage or not until they come into their power.

It's a losing battle, the only way to end the mage "threat" is for humanity to just stop breeding.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I think it's extremely obvious (even if it's not explicitly stated) that the Chantry deliberately isolates mages and limits public access to magical services because it doesn't want the public getting too fond of mages.

I don't think theres anything even remotely obvious about it.

Whoever controls the mages controls the world, essentially. The Chantry doesn't lock the mages up out of pure altruism, it does it because it wants to selfishly hoard the power for itself. Chantry dogma deliberately emphsaizes the "evils" of magic and fails to mention the many ways that it can and has helped their society. If more of the uneducated rubes who populate Thedas were made aware of the myriad of ways that magic could improve their lives, they might demand that the Chantry relinquish control.

Truly educated people would demand for mages to be locked up even tighter.

ledod wrote..
It should be noted, however, the Dalish do not fear mage imprisonment,
as huan parents do, thus there may be less 'untrained' mages within
their ranks. Many of the mages from DA 2 that succumbed were either in
states of extreme stress, or merely untrained.

Stress is a common thing in life.
Unless you have some way to pretect mages from stress, depression, drunkness and all other events in a persons life that effect ones mental and emotional state, then even the best of mages will always be a risk to themselves and otehrs.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
The problem will never be "fixed". It wouldn't matter if mages were executed immediatly upon discovery, you can't prevent mages from being born, and there's no way of knowing if a child will be a mage or not until they come into their power.

It's a losing battle, the only way to end the mage "threat" is for humanity to just stop breeding.

IIRC, I seem to recall there beign quite prominentm ages bloodlines. MEaning most mages seems ot have some shared lineage.

If that is so, then eradicating those bloodline could theoreticly get rid of 99% (maby even of all) of mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

@Lotion My hero!

     No but seriously, I get the feeling that most of these people protesting for mage rights are really viewing this situation as if they were a mage.  Instead of looking at a situation rationally they are using modern day ethics and empathy to decide on what should be done.  Why don't you guys try to view things from the other side. 

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I do see things from both sides, and I have been advocating the detachment from todays sensibilities and methods before judging TheDas many times.

Yet you seem to think that me ultimatively siding with mages means that I can't possibly see things from their perspective. Oh I can. And I do.
But no matter how much I feel sorry for the mages and how I would wish them a better life, that changes many advocate simply are not realistic.


And b.t.w. - mages are not the onyl thing preventing genocide.
I don't know where you got that from.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it. And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so. Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

Erm...ok.
So you're a mage supremacist.

That explains a lot.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't think theres anything even remotely obvious about it.

Of course you don't.

Truly educated people would demand for mages to be locked up even tighter.

Just like the "truly educated" forbade the research and use of every risky thing in our own society. Fire, steel, gunpowder, electricity, radium, uranium, plutonium...

Oh wait, no they didn't! The exact opposite is true! Many of history's greatest minds pursued knowledge of these things at great risk to themselves and others because they understood the potential benefit to humanity at large!

Do you have anything to back up your own assertion, or am I in for another few laps around your circular logic track?

"It's true because Lotion Soronnar says so, and Lotion Soronnar says it because it's true!"

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 novembre 2012 - 01:57 .

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
IIRC, I seem to recall there beign quite prominentm ages bloodlines. MEaning most mages seems ot have some shared lineage.

If that is so, then eradicating those bloodline could theoreticly get rid of 99% (maby even of all) of mages.

All humans probably have a shared lineage, so good luck with that. Remember that magic occurs across all the surface nations of Thedas, not to mention at least three different humanoid species, one of which hails originally from some unexplored corner of the world.

[General User]

The professional (and often personal) uses of "fire, steel, gunpowder, electricity, radium, uranium, plutonium, [etc.]" are rightly subject to reasonable restrictions. Much as, IRL, the military plus various law enforcement, health and safety, and other regulatory agencies control the use of those materials, so too did the Circles and the Templar Order control mages and magic. And for much the same reason: ie insuring the public's safety and that those useful but dangerous aspects of the world are indeed being put to a wholesome use.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Magic is the problem. Quit living in dreamland.

Mages succumbing has no direct correlation to templars. Never has. Mages have become abominations long before the templar order was fromed.

And training and "their tutor knows them" doesnt' work. We've already seen it.

This is a game. It is dreamland.
Magic is the problem the same way guns are the problem. Powers don't kill people. It's the person behind the powers. If properly trained, and a good person, the problem never arises. In addition, capability is never a problem. If it was, we'd simply hack off everyone's limbs and prevent all crime, ever.

I never said it did. I cited one incident and you and whats-his-name seem to think I'm blaming templars for everything. There was one incident at the Gallows during the last straw, that's all I ever said.

They seemed to recognize that Jowan was dabbling in blood magic. In a proper setting, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And b.t.w. - mages are not the onyl thing preventing genocide. 
I don't know where you got that from.

Apparently the hundred of thousands of grunts on the field of battle doesn't count. Only a mage's effort is worth anything!

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

Sure it does. B****ing and moaning are basic human rights. The difference is that the treatment of mages is dehumanizing. Not putting them lower on a social scale, but removing them entirely.
Peasant revolts undoubtably occur, but when mages decide that they are being treated inhumanely it is automatically assumed that they are blood mages or demon worshippers. "The very act of defending ourselves confirmation of our guilt."

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:20 .

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

The professional (and often personal) uses of "fire, steel, gunpowder, electricity, radium, uranium, plutonium, [etc.]" are rightly subject to reasonable restrictions. Much as, IRL, the military plus various law enforcement, health and safety, and other regulatory agencies control the use of those materials, so too did the Circles and the Templar Order control mages and magic. And for much the same reason: ie insuring the public's safety and that those useful but dangerous aspects of the world are indeed being put to a wholesome use.

The restrictions of the Circle are far from reasonable. They are not even on the same planet as reasonable.

We educate people about the dangers of these materials, we require them to follow strict rules and we punish them for misuse. We do not round up everyone who owns a lighter and place them under the direct watch of a faith-based order with an obvious religious bias against fire.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood mage: Slit your throat.
Victim: O.K.

Investigator: Looks like suicide.

.....

A blood mage would drive even modern CSI investiagors crazy..let alone the investigaors of middle ages.

Anyone can rig a suicide. Mages just have an easier time about it. If someone's a blood mage or a killer, being in the Circle doesn't change that nature. Not all mages are like that, however.

[Plaintiff]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood mage: Slit your throat.
Victim: O.K.

Investigator: Looks like suicide.

.....

A blood mage would drive even modern CSI investiagors crazy..let alone the investigaors of middle ages.

Anyone can rig a suicide. Mages just have an easier time about it. If someone's a blood mage or a killer, being in the Circle doesn't change that nature. Not all mages are like that, however.

Not to mention, the games have shown us that it is possible for other mages to detect if magic is being/has been used.

If magic existed in our own world, and was being used in crimes, then any sensible law enforcement agency would employ the skills of forensic mages to detect if, when and how magic was used at a particular crime scene. If such an agency refuses to use the edge that magic would give them in order to solve crimes, then that is the agency's own stupid fault, and mages are not to blame for that shortcoming.

[Auintus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Not to mention, the games have shown us that it is possible for other mages to detect if magic is being/has been used.

If magic existed in our own world, and was being used in crimes, then any sensible law enforcement agency would employ the skills of forensic mages to detect if, when and how magic was used at a particular crime scene. If such an agency refuses to use the edge that magic would give them in order to solve crimes, then that is the agency's own stupid fault, and mages are not to blame for that shortcoming.

Reasonable mages understand that magic can be used for evil. I refuse to believe that any of them would be unwilling to help track down a killer.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

General User wrote...

The professional (and often personal) uses of "fire, steel, gunpowder, electricity, radium, uranium, plutonium, [etc.]" are rightly subject to reasonable restrictions. Much as, IRL, the military plus various law enforcement, health and safety, and other regulatory agencies control the use of those materials, so too did the Circles and the Templar Order control mages and magic. And for much the same reason: ie insuring the public's safety and that those useful but dangerous aspects of the world are indeed being put to a wholesome use.

The restrictions of the Circle are far from reasonable. They are not even on the same planet as reasonable.

Given the nature and dangers that magic represents in Thedas, the Circles were the very essence of a reasonable, moderate solution.  Often in fact they were rather lenient.

We educate people about the dangers of these materials, we require them to follow strict rules and we punish them for misuse. We do not round up everyone who owns a lighter and place them under the direct watch of a faith-based order with an obvious religious bias against fire.

But we most certainly do "round up" things that represent a danger to others and place them under the direct watch of persons knowledgeable about the nature of the danger and trained in how to respond when things go wrong.

No matter what motiviation they may or may not have had, the Circles and the Templar Order provided a vitally needed public service for Thedas.

Modifié par General User, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

Sure it does. B****ing and moaning are basic human rights. The difference is that the treatment of mages is dehumanizing. Not putting them lower on a social scale, but removing them entirely.
Peasant revolts undoubtably occur, but when mages decide that they are being treated inhumanely it is automatically assumed that they are blood mages or demon worshippers. "The very act of defending ourselves confirmation of our guilt."

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

Sure it does. B****ing and moaning are basic human rights. The difference is that the treatment of mages is dehumanizing. Not putting them lower on a social scale, but removing them entirely.
Peasant revolts undoubtably occur, but when mages decide that they are being treated inhumanely it is automatically assumed that they are blood mages or demon worshippers. "The very act of defending ourselves confirmation of our guilt."

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

What the hell are you talking about? Accidental deaths as a result of people misusing firearms are well-documented.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

At first Magic was a strong force, a tool.
Then it was used to serve demons by blood mages and it ruin the heaven and the world.
Also there are good mages which are expert in healing and help their land and sovereign.

Right now Templars are right to do the restrictions, based on the history of magic in their world.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It also doesn't make it OK to b*** and moan just because someoen has something you don't.

TheDas is middle-ages. No one is truly free. Pesants leads a harsh life that basicly boils down to "work till you die". They will never be as rich as the nobles. They will never sleep in fine beds as the mages or eat fine foods in a nice tower.

Do you see them whining and moaning?

Sure it does. B****ing and moaning are basic human rights. The difference is that the treatment of mages is dehumanizing. Not putting them lower on a social scale, but removing them entirely.
Peasant revolts undoubtably occur, but when mages decide that they are being treated inhumanely it is automatically assumed that they are blood mages or demon worshippers. "The very act of defending ourselves confirmation of our guilt."

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

What the hell are you talking about? Accidental deaths as a result of people misusing firearms are well-documented.

I was talking of the sense that a gun doesn't fire on its own, and only ever cause death when either intended or mishandled. Magic, despite the intention of the mage and his handling of it, can cause death. Cause once the mage loses himself, and an abomination takes his place, death will follow.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 novembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[The Elder King]

Legatus Arianus wrote...

At first Magic was a strong force, a tool.
Then it was used to serve demons by blood mages and it ruin the heaven and the world.
Also there are good mages which are expert in healing and help their land and sovereign.

Right now Templars are right to do the restrictions, based on the history of magic in their world.

Blood mages don't serve demons. The magisters worshipped the Old Gods, but they weren't demons, and woship =/= serve.
I wouldn't be surprised if some magisters have demons at their service.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Of course you don't.

And of course you do....

Truly educated people would demand for mages to be locked up even tighter.

Just like the "truly educated" forbade the research and use of every risky thing in our own society. Fire, steel, gunpowder, electricity, radium, uranium, plutonium...

Oh wait, no they didn't! The exact opposite is true! Many of history's greatest minds pursued knowledge of these things at great risk to themselves and others because they understood the potential benefit to humanity at large!

False example that is not only wrong but also has nothing to do with anything.
Magis is also very much different from gunpowder.

Do you have anything to back up your own assertion, or am I in for another few laps around your circular logic track?

Do you?

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Auintus wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Magic is the problem. Quit living in dreamland.

Mages succumbing has no direct correlation to templars. Never has. Mages have become abominations long before the templar order was fromed.

And training and "their tutor knows them" doesnt' work. We've already seen it.
[/quote]

This is a game. It is dreamland.[/quote]

Which is another way of saying "I'm handwaving this away"?


[quote]
Magic is the problem the same way guns are the problem. Powers don't kill people. It's the person behind the powers. If properly trained, and a good person, the problem never arises. In addition, capability is never a problem. If it was, we'd simply hack off everyone's limbs and prevent all crime, ever.[/quote]

Magic powers do.
Being a good person has little bearing on demonic possesion.

Also, your last sentance is a load of stupid for reasons so obvious it doesn't warrant explaining.


[quote]
They seemed to recognize that Jowan was dabbling in blood magic. In a proper setting, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult.
[/quote]

Actually, the danger of demonic possesion is NOT detectable.
Uldred had a mentor. EVERY mage that failed in the circle had a mentor. Most mages that fail outside the Circle have a mentor. They still fail.

[qutoe]I never said it did[/quote]

Then what is this:
"A mage should be allowed to rely on magic in a desperate situation. The
situations in which accepting a demon's offer is the only way out were
only ever the result of templars."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
Sure it does. B****ing and moaning are basic human rights. The difference is that the treatment of mages is dehumanizing. Not putting them lower on a social scale, but removing them entirely.
Peasant revolts undoubtably occur, but when mages decide that they are being treated inhumanely it is automatically assumed that they are blood mages or demon worshippers. "The very act of defending ourselves confirmation of our guilt."

The treatment of mages isn't "dehumanizing".

Plaitiff wrote..
Not to mention, the games have shown us that it is possible for other mages to detect if magic is being/has been used.

If
magic existed in our own world, and was being used in crimes, then any
sensible law enforcement agency would employ the skills of forensic
mages to detect if, when and how magic was used at a particular crime
scene. If such an agency refuses to use the edge that magic would give
them in order to solve crimes, then that is the agency's own stupid
fault, and mages are not to blame for that shortcoming.

When and how? I don't recall that.
And if magic existed in our world, mages would still be locked up - because that's what every sensible government would do.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

Ever heard of a misfire? When properly trained, a mage is no more dangerous than a gunner.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

Ever heard of a misfire? When properly trained, a mage is no more dangerous than a gunner.

I was speaking metaphorically of the guns. Guns inherently pose no threat unless handled by someone. Magic sadly poses an inherent threat, despite its handler. That is the difference.