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[Mystch3vi0us]

DKJaigen wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

@Lotion My hero!

     No but seriously, I get the feeling that most of these people protesting for mage rights are really viewing this situation as if they were a mage.  Instead of looking at a situation rationally they are using modern day ethics and empathy to decide on what should be done.  Why don't you guys try to view things from the other side. 

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it. And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so. Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

     I've heard SS speaches that spout less BS than what you just said.  And no the "pro templar" arguments you've been hearing arn't pro templar.  What they are is mage regulation arguments.  Every person you listed has admitted to templars abusing power they have been given (not all but enough).  We have not said that circles are the best answer to the problem, we have said that the proposition of mage liberation is a much worse answer to the problem and it's been pointed out why.  

    

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

This is a game. It is dreamland.

Which is another way of saying "I'm handwaving this away"?

Basically, yeah.

Magic is the problem the same way guns are the problem. Powers don't kill people. It's the person behind the powers. If properly trained, and a good person, the problem never arises. In addition, capability is never a problem. If it was, we'd simply hack off everyone's limbs and prevent all crime, ever.

Magic powers do.
Being a good person has little bearing on demonic possesion.

Also, your last sentance is a load of stupid for reasons so obvious it doesn't warrant explaining.

The powers are used. Their misuse is the problem, not their existance.
True. But a good, well-trained individual wouldn't resort to demon-dealing.

It is a solution derived of your logic. What you have said is that magic, that capability to use a power that can be dangerous, is inherently a problem. From that, I derived that your limbs, which can be used as weapons, are dangerous, therefore they are inherently a problem and should be removed for the safety of everyone.

They seemed to recognize that Jowan was dabbling in blood magic. In a proper setting, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult.

Actually, the danger of demonic possesion is NOT detectable.
Uldred had a mentor. EVERY mage that failed in the circle had a mentor. Most mages that fail outside the Circle have a mentor. They still fail.

I've already commented on Uldred's issue. And I am well aware that the Circle needs revising. Most of the issue is that demon-dealing is seen as the only way out. And most mages outside the Circle are either taught demon worship or not taught much of demons at all. Bethany was taught only that they were dangerous and nothing more. However, everyone seems to regard Malcolm as the only good mage while the rest are evil, blight-ridden monsters that can't help but destroy everything they touch.

I never said it did

Then what is this:
"A mage should be allowed to rely on magic in a desperate situation. The
situations in which accepting a demon's offer is the only way out were
only ever the result of templars."

I do not recall that. If so, I apologize. That is an incorrect statement. Although, trained mages would have little to fear from common beasts or bandits, making templars the only real threat to them. What I meant to emphasize is that magic should be allowed to be used in self-defense and that templars were the only threat that would be able to neutralize that tool.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The treatment of mages isn't "dehumanizing".

Yes, it is. It treats them as a nuclear weapon that might go off at any second instead of a thinking, feeling human being.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I was speaking metaphorically of the guns. Guns inherently pose no threat unless handled by someone. Magic sadly poses an inherent threat, despite its handler. That is the difference.

One can elect not to use magic. I know collateral damage may be an issue with the untrained, but I've never seen magic actually misfire.

[Auintus]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

     I've heard SS speaches that spout less BS than what you just said.  And no the "pro templar" arguments you've been hearing arn't pro templar.  What they are is mage regulation arguments.  Every person you listed has admitted to templars abusing power they have been given (not all but enough).  We have not said that circles are the best answer to the problem, we have said that the proposition of mage liberation is a much worse answer to the problem and it's been pointed out why.  
    

SS?
Mage containment is basically pro-templar. It's easier to write.
I have suggested what I consider to be a reasonable compromise. No one has yet sufficiently addressed any possible errors.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 06:33 .

[The Hierophant]

DKJaigen wrote...

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

The irony is that all the races of Thedas are faced with the prospect of extinction thanks to a  Fade born plague which was contracted and spread by a tyrannical mageocracy. Plus it's the Grey Wardens not the mages alone that protect Thedians from extinction.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it.

Pot calling the kettle black, and lol @ letting a million die for one person? 

And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so.

That's why the templar order was created.

Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

It's relevant as the minority in question are prone to possession by carnivourous sociopathic entities who prey on mages, and mundanes alike. Plus without a majority to maintain a sizable population Thedas's races would've lacked the numbers to combat the Blights.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 07 novembre 2012 - 06:39 .

[thibaut72]

It's amazing to see that a minority of evenment can generate such wrong feelings. Majority of templar do their job correctly, and deal with mage fairly, as a majority of mage just want to leave in peace.

My point of view is the circle need to be a school and a safe site for mage, and the templar are need for search those mage who abuse of the Maker's gift.
It's not a problem of mage or templar, it's just a problem of men. As long as people will need more power, always seek for the easiest way or for his selfish mind, nothing good can happened.
Blood magic is the oldest magic that exist, but if you always use it without an altruist and strong mind, it's an easiest way to succomb to it's own weakness (jalousy, anger, fear...). But everyone can succomb to a demon if tempted correctly (which we can see 2 case in DA2).

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him", can you really understand this sentence ? Or will you interpret it ? The chantry is very similar to the christianism who act as partial way whithout hearing an other voice. There is not a Final Solution for the problem of the mage/templar. If you always hear your own fear of the other, you ll loose faith of humanity.

(sorry if my english isn't correct, i'm french...)

[Auintus]

^^^^^
Finding rational individuals in ths topic is difficult. You are fortunate to understand.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which is another way of saying "I'm handwaving this away"?

Basically, yeah.

At least you admit.
Half is forgiven.

The powers are used. Their misuse is the problem, not their existance.

Actually when the very existence of said powers draws demons...yes, yes it does.
Even morso if those powers are very corruptive in nature.

True. But a good, well-trained individual wouldn't resort to demon-dealing.

And yet good, well trained individuals keep falling prey to demons.
In their moment of weakness they let the demon in or are overpowered (and we ALL have moments of weakenss. No exception)

It is a solution derived of your logic. What you have said is that magic, that capability to use a power that can be dangerous, is inherently a problem. From that, I derived that your limbs, which can be used as weapons, are dangerous, therefore they are inherently a problem and should be removed for the safety of everyone.

It's a solution derived of ALL logic.
Not only because magic is by several order of manginute more dangerous and abusable, but also because hackign off everyones limbs hurts EVERYONE. And also dooms everyone to die.
How do you expect anyone to eat or do any work without limbs....OR hack peoples limbs off in the first place?

I do not recall that. If so, I apologize. That is an incorrect statement. Although, trained mages would have little to fear from common beasts or bandits, making templars the only real threat to them. What I meant to emphasize is that magic should be allowed to be used in self-defense and that templars were the only threat that would be able to neutralize that tool.

Not really.
For one, mages can resort ot magic and deamon dealing for many reasons, not only self-defense (case in point: Connor)
Also, mages can be killed like any other man if caught by surprise.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except that, contrary to guns, the power of magic CAN kill people without the user's intent.

Ever heard of a misfire? When properly trained, a mage is no more dangerous than a gunner.

Ever heard of a safety swicth?

Magc cannot be really compared to guns.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The treatment of mages isn't "dehumanizing".

Yes, it is. It treats them as a nuclear weapon that might go off at any second instead of a thinking, feeling human being.

But they ARE a weapon that can go off at any second...as well as a thinking living human being.
They are both.
You cannot treat them just as B.
And they aren't treated just as A, otherwise there would be no circles. They would be leashed and collared and have no freedom AT ALL.

[Warden661]

The whole mage/Templar conflict reminds me of Joker's line in The Dark Knight: "This is what happens when an unstopable force meets an imovable object." It really doesn't matter which side is which. Both are imovable in their views on the situations as well as both being unstopable in trying to force their views on the other. 

It's really all about perspective when you decide which is imovable and which is unstopable. 

Modifié par BoBear, 07 novembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[DKJaigen]

The Hierophant wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

The irony is that all the races of Thedas are faced with the prospect of extinction thanks to a  Fade born plague which was contracted and spread by a tyrannical mageocracy. Plus it's the Grey Wardens not the mages alone that protect Thedians from extinction.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it.

Pot calling the kettle black, and lol @ letting a million die for one person? 

And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so.

That's why the templar order was created.

Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

It's relevant as the minority in question are prone to possession by carnivourous sociopathic entities who prey on mages, and mundanes alike. Plus without a majority to maintain a sizable population Thedas's races would've lacked the numbers to combat the Blights.

In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger. If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages. If the mundanes cannot handle the darkspawn then thats not the problem of the mages. And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak. oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

[thibaut72]

And what's happened when the hardest spear hit the hardest shield ? Logic means that they can't exist together ...

Mage exist and there is nothing that can change this fact. So, circles must be recommanded but they are not a necessity (a teaching as for the Dalish). As the templar are recommanded but they are not a necessity (everyone can kill a mage).
The fact is that in DA2, there are a lot of templar who oppress the mage, and in all time, there are more "evil" (demon, insane mage,...) in kirkwall than everywhere else. No one can take the city as an exemple.

So every followers of the Chantry need to go back to the origin, and understand that they maybe go in the wrong way. For atheist/dalish, they just want to live as they want, as everyone else. Is it to complicated to have some "thinker" in templar hierarchy or in the Circles ?

[DKJaigen]

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Mystch3vi0us wrote...

@Lotion My hero!

     No but seriously, I get the feeling that most of these people protesting for mage rights are really viewing this situation as if they were a mage.  Instead of looking at a situation rationally they are using modern day ethics and empathy to decide on what should be done.  Why don't you guys try to view things from the other side. 

You Lotion JB and emperor dont look at the other side as well and you just as grounded to present day morals as the mage supporters. You can only see things from the perspective of a  templar But you do not look at the world of thedas as a whole. In this world genocide of the human race can happen and the only beings preventing that are mages.

It makes any pro-templar argument irrelevant. Pro templar supporters are idiots in my opinion. if a couple million of mundane die so that a single mage can live then so be it. And furthermore is not for the mages to make to keep the mundanes safe. They have to stand their own legs if they wish to survive. And they can change they simply refuse to do so. Such deserve neither respect or compassion from me. But the concept that a minority should be imprisoned for the safety of the majority is not relevant if the majority is  not important .

     I've heard SS speaches that spout less BS than what you just said.  And no the "pro templar" arguments you've been hearing arn't pro templar.  What they are is mage regulation arguments.  Every person you listed has admitted to templars abusing power they have been given (not all but enough).  We have not said that circles are the best answer to the problem, we have said that the proposition of mage liberation is a much worse answer to the problem and it's been pointed out why.  

    

SS? LOL. im all for a  "will to power" thinking which is very harsh but logical. If the mages ceased to exist right now all life on thedas will perish . Its not the duty of the mages to protect the weak mundanes . I believe its the duty of the mundanes to become as powerful as the mages. when the darkspawn and demons are nothing more then a nuisance they have succeeded. Right now you templar supporters want to punish the mages for the faillings of the mundanes. And yet the mundanes refuse to evolve as they quite confortable in their own weakness. and the templar order and the chantry are instigators of this weakness. And such Its utterly immoral to support the templars because it will create a weak race that will for always be dependant on mages.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The powers are used. Their misuse is the problem, not their existance.

Actually when the very existence of said powers draws demons...yes, yes it does.
Even morso if those powers are very corruptive in nature.

They attract demons, but they can be dealt with.

True. But a good, well-trained individual wouldn't resort to demon-dealing.

And yet good, well trained individuals keep falling prey to demons.
In their moment of weakness they let the demon in or are overpowered (and we ALL have moments of weakenss. No exception)

The only trained mage I've seen fall prey to demons was Uldred, and he wasn't exactly good.

It is a solution derived of your logic. What you have said is that magic, that capability to use a power that can be dangerous, is inherently a problem. From that, I derived that your limbs, which can be used as weapons, are dangerous, therefore they are inherently a problem and should be removed for the safety of everyone.

It's a solution derived of ALL logic.
Not only because magic is by several order of manginute more dangerous and abusable, but also because hackign off everyones limbs hurts EVERYONE. And also dooms everyone to die.
How do you expect anyone to eat or do any work without limbs....OR hack peoples limbs off in the first place?

Not my logic. I reason that magic is a part of who they are and can be controlled and utilized as any tool might. You seem to think that any possible threat must be locked up even if it is managable.
More dangerous, and more helpful. It is an order of magnitude greater in scale to both extremes.
It was an extreme example. Consider instead the removal of a tool, a very useful, but not absolutely necessary tool. Except that isn't quite accurate. Maybe there isn't an appropriate metaphor.

I do not recall that. If so, I apologize. That is an incorrect statement. Although, trained mages would have little to fear from common beasts or bandits, making templars the only real threat to them. What I meant to emphasize is that magic should be allowed to be used in self-defense and that templars were the only threat that would be able to neutralize that tool.

Not really.
For one, mages can resort ot magic and deamon dealing for many reasons, not only self-defense (case in point: Connor)
Also, mages can be killed like any other man if caught by surprise.

Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm. I am not suggesting that self-defense would be the only circumstance in which they would use magic. Just that it is a relevent one.
True, they can. But then the threat of possession is no greater than a possessed corpse.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ever heard of a misfire? When properly trained, a mage is no more dangerous than a gunner.

Ever heard of a safety swicth?

Magc cannot be really compared to guns.

I didn't start the metaphor. And a trained mage has just as much control over their magic as any gunner, safety swich or no.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

How the actual **** will free mages make the world less dependant on mages?.... As it was Thedas was as independant of mages as they could possibly be, by locking all the mages away, the mages have a minimal influence on the lifes of the mundanes.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But they ARE a weapon that can go off at any second...as well as a thinking living human being.
They are both.
You cannot treat them just as B.
And they aren't treated just as A, otherwise there would be no circles. They would be leashed and collared and have no freedom AT ALL.

They aren't a bomb that would cause unholy destruction if allowed to walk around a town. That's the extreme of how they are treated. Yes, the Circles are far better than the Qunari's method, but they still treat mages first as a threat, second as a person. It can be done better.

[Auintus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How the actual **** will free mages make the world less dependant on mages?.... As it was Thedas was as independant of mages as they could possibly be, by locking all the mages away, the mages have a minimal influence on the lifes of the mundanes.

Because they have skills that mudanes do not, they should be isolated for fear of improving the world? Should we isolate anyone with examplar skill in any profession, because they are a cut above us, because they have abilities we lack?
The world isn't dependent on mages, and if done right, it still wouldn't be.

Modifié par Auintus, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
In short magic exists and is dangerous. So deal with it by growing stronger. If you cant handle an abomination then its the problem of the mundanes not the mages. If the mundanes cannot handle the darkspawn then thats not the problem of the mages. And saying templars is laugable  as they are utterly incapable of handeling mages at all.not to mention it keeps the majority of the mundanes weak. oh btw grey wardens are created by mages . once again the mundanes have failed.

Yes, that's exactly it. Let's give everyone classes in self defense and guns. Then we can dissolve the police force.
Wait, no. That would be stupid.

[Inquisitor Arc]

Auintus wrote...
The only trained mage I've seen fall prey to demons was Uldred, and he wasn't exactly good.

What about the various mages you encountered in Dragon Age 2? Like during The Last Straw at the foundry where the girl turned into an abomination. What about Thrask's daughter, Grace, and Evelina.

Auintus wrote...
Not my logic. I reason that magic is a part of who they are and can be controlled and utilized as any tool might. You seem to think that any possible threat must be locked up even if it is managable.
More dangerous, and more helpful. It is an order of magnitude greater in scale to both extremes.
It was an extreme example. Consider instead the removal of a tool, a very useful, but not absolutely necessary tool. Except that isn't quite accurate. Maybe there isn't an appropriate metaphor.

The Qunari are the most utilitarian society in Thedas, and they greatly value tools. Yet they chain their mages, sow their mouths, and cut their tongues.

Auintus wrote...
Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm. I am not suggesting that self-defense would be the only circumstance in which they would use magic. Just that it is a relevent one.
True, they can. But then the threat of possession is no greater than a possessed corpse.

This is simply not true. A possessed corpse under the influence of sloth, rage, and hunger arn't much of a threat. Those controlled by spirits of pride become arcane horrors. Revenants are corpses controlled by powerful demons. Plus you have to remember that an abomination has all the powers the mage has.

Modifié par Tiger Ace 32, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[MisterJB]

Auintus wrote...
Connor was an untrained child taking any way he could to help his father. Hardly the norm.

Hardly the norm? Most kids with a sick relative would play Make-a-Wish foundation with a demon.
And then there's the adults who would use demons to get whatever they want in life. The people who lose control once and turn to demons.

There is an infinite number of justifications one can find for making deals with demons.

[Josielyn]

Ok, so lets compromise and get all the mages a Parole Beeper bracelet, give them the weekends off to go shopping or check into a tavern that rents by the hour, and anytime they get past the boundaries of town or they are out past curfew, then it starts beeping and the nearest Templar station can round them up.

[Vandicus]

Auintus wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

How the actual **** will free mages make the world less dependant on mages?.... As it was Thedas was as independant of mages as they could possibly be, by locking all the mages away, the mages have a minimal influence on the lifes of the mundanes.

Because they have skills that mudanes do not, they should be isolated for fear of improving the world? Should we isolate anyone with examplar skill in any profession, because they are a cut above us, because they have abilities we lack?
The world isn't dependent on mages, and if done right, it still wouldn't be.

They're isolated largely because of:

A. Demons
B. Blood magic(namely mind control)

Not because magic gives them some sort've innate advantage in baking pies or sowing crops. Most magic that isn't currently in heavy use(crafting magic is in use) is destructive in nature. As you'll notice, people aren't locked up in Circles in Thedas because they're exceptional architects or scholars, they're locked up because they present a massive threat.

A person with the ability to control the minds of others is highly dangerous. The Litany only provides very specific protection at the moment when the mind control is attempted. The Tevinter Imperium has arisen twice now. Once when mages were free, and another time when the templars were merely too lax in regulating a Circle. Given human nature and empirical evidence, it would seem that complete mage freedom isn't really feasible(although I don't know that I'd consider the ability to be a serf or a member of the elven underclass better than the Circles).